barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewingsummary...viewingsummary

quite honestly say that virgin media pretty much got this one right. Not really watched on virgin media platform.

Although this figure distorted in that it was not a full week of a loss to the virgin media platform.

Strangely the market share for Sky one did not drop at all it stayed at 1.4.

interestingly Lost viewing hardly blinked but 24 figures was hit hard.

I maybe reading this wrong but to me Sky does not seem to have lost very much at all.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I agree, me and the other analysts in the office were chatting about this today and could only really come up with one answer that didn't involve any conspiracies... Virgin Media customers wern't really interested in Sky One, thus it hasn't had much of an affect.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I was shocked the big loser is actually Sky News in terms of % drop of viewers.

Some how I cannot see a mass exit to go and get a news channel:o:

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I've removed the pointless comments from this thread. No more please.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Especially when, for the moment at least, one can pick it up on DTT.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

looking down the list Living isn't doing too bad it looks like it got about half of the numbers that Sky One has got - so with a few more good programmes I'm sure that'll increase

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Not only was it not a full week, it was for three days of one week. This could mean that the net result is far worse, or it could be as simple as a normal fluctuation in viewing figures.

For example, if you look at the same week on week stats, Living TV had a 12.5% average reach that week and an 11.5% the following week, and of course they haven't lost a large distribution platform.

Also, audience share is a more accurate display of popularity, as it counts all viewers and the percent of all viewers watching that channel, and that's stayed at 1.4% for the last two weeks.

I think it's too early to tell in all honesty, the real stats will come out in the next week or two.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

have to agree there andy. Early signs though don't look good for sky at all. Seems a massive own goal. Its better to get some money from a platform. Even if its not what you want that platform to pay.

We will have to wait for a first full week to see the full impact. Problem is this will not show if virgin media lost customers to move to Sky which might balance the figures out. Shame you cannot see platform figures from the BARB.

Which begs the question in those 3 days did many leave hence those who watched sky one kept its market share up. Which minimised the the impact a little. Does these early figures suggest virgin media was correct that they had a very low cancellation figure.

How much has this cost Sky in real terms. This advertising attack must have cost them an arm and Leg to get probably at a low customers change.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

You have to take gambles and risks in business doesnt seem like this time it paid off for sky maybe they will be more vigilant next time and take VM more seriously in terms of not being a walk over like they thought they would be.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewingsummary...viewingsummary

I shocked to see this weeks barb figures maybe vindicates SKY saying VM underestimated its worth to cable customers with that sort of drop.

Nearly a third of customers was dropped from Sky One. So persentage wise due to less subscribers its a channel actually hardly watched by its own platform.

So Sky must ask themselves why are sky subscribers snubbing there blue ribboned channel despite heavy investment. If would say on these figures Sky One is got one foot in the grave. There is no justification splashing out funds to a dead duck. No wonder the advertisers are not best pleased. Have sky already pulled the plug on freeview which might just reflect these figures.

I would assume with no large blip for other channels mostly have settled to watching VOD.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I do not quite understand the figures but if Sky One has dropped a third of its viewers then that would be in proportion to the drop in the number of potential viewers due to its absence on Virgin.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Taking a brief look at actual viewing figures for Sky's trophy show, Lost, they appear to have lost about a third of their viewers. Compare the number of people who tuned in on 18/02 - about 1.5 million - with the number who tuned in on 18/03 ... just over 1 million.

Any broadcaster who loses almost 33% of their audience in just one month, on their most expensive import, ought to be very, very worried.

I would love to hear what line they're spinning their advertisers right now, trying to resist their demands for lower fees.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

true I just wonder if these figures might make sky cave in to VM way of thinking over carriage fees. Afterall its better to get some money and stop the haemorrhage and keep advertiser's sweet. Some would argue this was a very dangerous game by VM to upset so many customers. I do think this stance has been a good thing in digital platform war. Sky know now if the did not before there monopoly is gone.

No more overcharging

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I really get confused with statistics.

I am not sure what they all mean, but a drop of that size can't honestly be good for Sky can it?

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

No it cannot be good at all. 500,00 is a massive drop in viewing figures.

Those figures in no way shape or form represent their investment into channels on sky one suhc as £1,000,000 an episode for lost! Its a massive kick in the teeth for SKY i for one am glad to see the bully getting a taste of its own medicine

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Should this not work both ways, however? I mean, If there was such a significant proportion of people watching Sky One, unlike what Virgin Media wanted to claim, then isn't that a problem for Virgin as well rejecting the channel claiming it wasn't worth the money and that they were rejecting the channel for the customers?

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I might be wrong but I don't think VM said that nobody was watching Sky One but that the price being asked was more than it was worth. It's all a bit of a haze now! Oh for those heady days at the end of last month :)

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

If you're right then Virgin have 1/2 million customers who just lost (no pun intended) a programme they watched. Whether this is enough to make them switch suppliers is a different kettle of fish.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

But it's not half a million customers, it's half a million viewers. For statistical purposes, the UK is reckoned to have 2.2 viewers per household (source). VM reaches roughly 3.5 million households, therefore used to provide a potential reach of about 7.7 million viewers to Sky One. Of those 7.7 million, just 500,000 were watching Lost, Sky One's top-rated programme. That is about 6.5% of VM viewers (assuming, of course, that the entire 500,000 drop is due to the loss of Sky One from VM - a reasonable assumption I think).

So Sky has lost 33% of its viewers for Lost, but VM has only pi**ed off 6.5% of its viewers in the process. Now tell me who's out on a limb here.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I like your Maths.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Good Post!:tu:

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Not that I am arguing to the contrary, but I don't actually see what your arithmetic actually proves.

Just as a point of order too, bear in mind that not all Virgin Media customers have TV and not all VM TV customers had Sky One, so it's not as simple an equation to come up with. Also, your assumption means that both of the 2 people in the average household a) watches every programme together and b) only has one TV in the house.

Not that it really makes much difference of course, the only equation that matters to either company is the bottom line figure, which is not going to be decided (much to either sides dismay I am sure) over a single programme that MOST people in the country have no interest in watching anyway....now there's a stat for you, 50-odd million people don't watch lost every week! ;)

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

The Virgin Media 3.3 million figure is the number of customers who have TV (VM have far more broadband customers). Also, AFAIK, every VM TV package had Sky One as standard, even the free TV pack.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

But how many of that " captive audience " actually watch the lost ( no pun intended ) channels ?

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Based on Chris T's calculations, only 6.5%.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I'm not so sure. According to this source the combined sum of digital TV viewers of ntl and Telewest was 2.6m - ok it was at the end of 2005, but unless Virgin have added 3/4m new TV viewers in just over a year then 3.3m is probably not correct.

Also, I am happy to be proved wrong on this, but I am pretty sure that the free viewers did not get Sky One. Perhaps different areas had different packages.

But as stated, these calculations are not correct as they assume that 2.2 people watch the TV at any time in every houehold, and are based on 3.3m viewers from Virgin.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

This is a RTF format report on the Ofcom website, which states that by Q3 2006, NTL and Telewest combined had 3.3 million viewers (See Section 1: Overview: Key Findings). Only 2.8 million of them were on digital, but this is not relevant as Sky One was carried on analogue.

This is an article on the British Film Institute website which confirms that 2.2 viewers per household is the standard figure used by the industry when converting viewing households to viewing individuals (see paragraph 5).

The numbers I used and my basis for using them are sound. If you don't like my conclusions, you're going to have to find another way of attacking them. ;)

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

As said, I am not arguing to the contrary. I said before I fail to see what your statistics actually prove in the context of what was being discussed.

Whilst there may well be 3.3m (not the 3.5m you originally based your sums on) Virgin TV customers, not all of them had Sky One. I don't know how many did or did not, but I can guarantee that not all did.

Finally, again, your stats state that TV viewing households have on average 2.2 viewers each, but as I said, and you have not included this in your maths, you are assuming that both of them are watching the TV whenever the TV is being watched, which is simply not human nature all of the time. Perhaps it is in your house, but it certainly is not in mine.

Therefore, if you're going to use these stats to prove something, you need to say what is is you're trying to prove and do so by using a less simplistic (i.e more accurate) manner to prove it;)

Just repeating what you said before doesn't a fact make :)

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

The figure of 2.2 viewers as quoted by the BFI is not a figure for average occupancy of a household, nor is it an average number for total people who like to watch TV in a household - if it were, then you would be justified in objecting to my use of it.

The figure is the standard muliplication factor used when determining how many individuals watched a programme, where the raw statistics are expressed as households rather than individuals. This means that - presumably - BARB has research that shows that when a TV is tuned to a particular programme in an average house, an average number of 2.2 people will be watching it. It does explain this in the article I linked to - I'm wondering whether you actually read it?

As for the number of Sky viewers on cable - I really do think you're splitting hairs. The majority of combinations of channels offered by VM, past and present, include Sky One. I don't see that you have any basis to show a significant variance from the figure I have used. Certainly you've done rather less well than I have at bringing actual facts to this discussion, rather than conjecture that happens to back up your viewpoint. You might do well to heed your own advice about merely repeating statements not making them factual. ;)

You still don't see what the stats prove in the context of the discussion. Well, specifically the OP suggested (based on less than a full week's stats as it turns out) that Sky has barely been dented by the loss of carriage on VM.

I suggest otherwise - they appear to have lost about a third of their veiwers for Lost. (Incidentally, that proportion is broadly in line with the split of cable/satellite viewers in the UK, so perhaps we have some evidence for 3.3 million being a reasonable estimate of Sky One's reach on cable after all, but I digress)

I went a step further and attempted to show that the whole 'crisis' is a bigger deal for Sky than it is for VM. Sky has lost a third of its viewers, and therefore a third of its justification for advertising rates, for its most expensive programme ever.

VM, on the other hand, has risked the ire of just 6.5% of its viewers in the same crisis. Those 500,000 viewers will mean a lot to Sky and their advertisers. They do not mean nearly as much to VM.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

interesting Chris, whatever way you look at it the premiere program isnt werth the cash layed down, even for the advertising revenue payed out.

its also amazing given your no's that there appears to be only at best half a million VM customers on analogue only service, of those, how many can not get use of cable modems/broadband?.

for 500.000 old user boxs surely it makes sense to pull the analogue right now and open up the digital TV bandwidth for everyone else, there most be a profit saving there given a mear 500.000 or less old box users , what can be done to help them move over to at least a simple and cheap temp IPTV STB that can be cobbled together quick, or just give them a cheap broadband only deal and free up the network for better things.

given we now have 3 weeks BARB you might think we would see a slight (or perhaps far better?) increase in the no's this week as the households that moved over from VM to sky came online, but that doesnt appear to be the case, wonder why , didnt that many move over after all?, perhaps this extra repeate weekend (it didnt already happen did it?) will show up next update.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

No I didn't. Had you have explained this like you did then, then I wouldn't have to read through pages of gumph from the BFI to get to the point you're making.

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm criticising the information you presented, and the way you presented it for a point that was indifferent to the consensus anyway. The only clear fact is that 500,000 less people watched Lost on Sky One this week than the previous weeks. We all agree that the assumption is that this loss comes from VM customers.

Perhaps if you'd read my posts you might see that we're saying the same thing, aside from this 6.5% route versus 33% for one programme on Sky, which to my mind simply acts like comparing a horse to a housebrick.

Your two 'facts' might well stand up, but they are of no difference or similarity to each other. You're suggesting that cheesing off 6.5% of your customers is by some way related to Sky having 33% less viewers in some way other than the 6.5% are the same people as the 33%. Why? What does this prove?

Sky have lost viewing figures - Virgin have not, becuase they have not taken their channels away from any platform.

Virgin have annoyed their customers, Sky have not, as Sky's customers still have the single programme you're going on about.

Whilst the two figures are linked (and only) as they are affecting the same people, they are totally unconnected in every other way...so i remain confused as to exactly what point you are trying to make, other than to join in with the collective putting the boot into Sky?

It's like saying that 6.5% of Virgin customers have lost their one programme, but Tesco provides 50% of them with their bread each week. Both might be true, both are utterly irrelivant.

I'm not sure that you made that suggestion clear before now, but if that was what you're trying to prove with your maths, then this doesn't add up either:

First, you're talking about one programme, not all programmes on all Sky basic channels.

Second, none of us know how many Virgin customers have switched or will be doing so. It might be none, it might be lots, it might be somewhere in the middle. Until you have this stat, we're all guessing.

Third, Sky have only lost revenue from Virgin to this point. They have not reduced their advertising costs yet, although of course it's clear that unless they can bridge this missing viewing gap they will have to in the Summer.

So it's not really better or worse for anyone at this time (publicly anyway). But I would have thought that someone with an understanding of media such as yourself would be able to separate viewing figures with customer figures...if I didn't know you better I would be suggesting that you were just trying to stir it up for somereason.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

:angel:
;)
nope, not in wythenshawe (south manchester, probably VM's largest ?cabled garden city), we lost Tesco's when they shut up shop in civic months ago, so we all get our bread from iceland or farmfoods now, the poor birds are going hungry this week as farmfoods is blocked off and shut today while they dimolish the towerblock :angel:

the new sky bloke with his generator/dish and HD TV was there again trying to sell his wares but as usual no takers......., (no real shop selling [HD]TV's there any more)the VM guy under his shiny new plastic cover was as usual , ringing through to accounts/installs and setting up another 10 meg broadband/tv appointment.:shocked:

its friday andy, have a beer and relax :p:

the lads new sapphire ATI X1550 AGP gfx card from civic (£69)seems to be working nice..... im happy.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

It appears that everybody seems to be arguing with each other but nobody knows what the others are arguing about! ;)

I think, however, that we all seem to be agreeing on the same things, so :group:!

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

BARB are assuming a lot, how about households who leave the tv on to keep the burglars at bay?
Average of 2.2 people per household? are them 2.2 people watching the same channel in the age of multiple tv sets?
How about the households, that are only inhabited by 1 but to round things up barb say " lets call that 2.2 " :erm:
The truth will be known once the end of year profits are listed, with sky having a bit more flexibility in the wallet I dont think it will be panic stations just yet.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I don't think BARB are assuming anything. And seeing as they are the acknowledged experts in this field, if they use 2.2 as an average, I am happy to accept that they have the research and experience to back that up. What are your qualifications to say otherwise?

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

No more than yours, and that is my point.
Figures mean jack as far as I am concerned, what will matter is the net profit of each company.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I have no qualifications, agreed, but then I'm not the one suggesting that the people who do have the qualifications have got it wrong, am I? ;)

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Just bear in mind that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

true but which ever way you chop these figures they are bad news for SKY.

If there had been no or little drop then Sky would have won the battle as it would likely have been a massive switch of customers from VM to Sky.

God knows how much there advertising attack has cost to try and make us switch. We not even getting to the figure sales pitch of reduced costs to pull them in. Admittedly VM were also giving favours to keep disgruntled customers.

You have to question where are Sky going to recoup there spending/losses. I read that the beeb said even with Sky they could not raise funds to outbid setanta/ITV for the recent football.

Is this the first crack in SKY's power that they being forced to be more careful how they spend. All this spending has to catch up sky at some point.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

:p: :bsmack:

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Surely if Sky One has lost viewers it means that either Sky customers are watching it less or that the drop was caused by the loss of Virgin Media Customers or both.

Sky Customers are fortunate in that in addition to all the official channels broadcast by Sky there are a massive number of Free To Air or Free To Watch channels. Hopefully, among all those choices, they can find something worth watching or listening to.

Personally, I think it was a mistake by Sky to drop Virgin Media Customers especially me as I am a Sky One fan. Sky have lost a lot of revenue. They should have taken what money Virgin Offered and recouped their spending losses from elsewhere.

It will interesting to see what happens with Ofcom or any legal actions in relation to this issue.

Might be also worth asking why Virgin Media cannot broadcast the same FTA channels as Sky and give their customers more choice.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

More on Digital Spy:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitalt...customers.html

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

what about households with 3/4/5 people? student flats where there can be ~8 people watching?

if you want to say only 1 person watched lost then divide all viewing figures by 2.2? percentages will be the same :p:

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I just read this and they have a similar thread. Which someone said Lost hit less than a million viewers. So checked and sure enough there blue ribboned show has plummeted to new depths.

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewingsummary...rt=weeklytop30

Unless Sky u-turn Sky One will I believe will not get future major investment or Sky might just pull the plug on it especially if it continues to drop. At the moment to relieve its flagging channel they throw a dog bones. A film here and plan to put football on it. What happens if this fails.

I really can see when 24 and Lost comes next up for bidding Sky will not be able to get new deals. I even doubt the makers will even offer these shows while the reach is so low.

At the end of the day even with fox they will want there shows shown in as many households as possible. Which might mean Domestic channels getting them in the future. I doubt Sky would pay the same price for those channels as the viewing figures just does not justify the outlay. What must annoy the americans is likely when the bids come in due to Sky stupidity series like lost will not go for a million an episode. I would doubt Sky would pay that sort of fee ever again and domestic/VM channels might not want to pay such high price. Will this then alienate Sky relationship with american broadcasters.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

The real question is what do the 8 million Sky subscribers actually watch for their money.

Mind you I suppose the same could be said for VM viewers

Is Freeview the best bargain???????

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

thats a valid question at the end of the day the most watched digital channels are the ITV 3/4, BBc3&4, E4 of the world. Now this maybe due to the many freeview boxes/tv's out there. Its difficult to pinpoint the actual viewing habbits of SKY & VM subscribers. However it maybe one reason why sky decided there channels should not be free to air.

However both platforms have its advantages why you pay for your digital rather than just hook up that freeview box. VOD is the big eye catcher with VM to be able to watch stuff when you want. As for Sky I not sure as I don't have it but they must have advantages as they would not have any users.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

Why would producers care about the audience figures? As I see it, that's of interest to the broadcaster not the production companies, as higher figures equate to being able to charge higher advertising fees.

Hypothetically speaking, if I am prepared to pay £2 million per episode of Lost for exclusive rights to the next season - even though I only intend to watch it with my missus in our living room - and the next nearest bid is only £1 million p/episode, then the producers of Lost are going to take my offer despite the total audience figures being much lower.

Re: barb figures show 1% reach drop to sky one
 

I do see your point but surely more watch more would likely want to buy DVD's and want to put it out to a wider appeal. However I cannot see why SKy will continue to pay more or even the same fee's for something which they are getting failed dropping ratings. This is where its likely the people who own the shows might start to flex there muscle when it starts to harm them financially. Someone might step in and offer what sky been paying but less viewers makes there product less atractive for mega bids. So there is a real danger Fox & co will get less money when the next round of bids are up.