Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Breaking News


I wasn't quite sure if this was to go under "Entertainment"....:erm:

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

This would make better telly than all that Xfactor crap.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Well its not like they came up with a sentence that wasn't already decided before the trial is it?

And its obvious that killing him is going to make him a martyr.

So I ask whats the point in executing him?

Was the verdict a genuine one, or was it already decided?

Surely as a developing country, Iraq would have been encouraged to avoid capital punishment by the west?
Oh....hang on......whats it called, the land of the free.....oh I mean USA still regularly executes people.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Well all that killing him will do it turn him into a martyr.He should be kept alive in a dodgy prison and allowed to wither away whilst being constantly exposed to the press showing others that he is nothing.I think hanging him is a mistake

as you see I agree Timewarrior only a bit slower lol

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Good! :tu:
It's heartening that in the last decade or so there have been instances of evil dictators being put before courts and tried for their crimes....

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

But will it now stop the bombings etc in Iraq??

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Seeing as this is the first of probably many trials then he will probably die of old age by the time all of the court cases are over anyway

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I hope it's a slow long painful undignifying death.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Well the yanks wouldn't take him out during the first Gulf war as they knew it would be instant martyrdom but it now looks like the Iraqi legal system is going to give him what he wants after all. He should be sent to the foulest prison they have and should be kept alive so that everyone can watch him suffer. Maybe Liberty should take up his case? ;)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

why will killing the head figure of the saddam loving sunni's stop the wave of terror in Iraq?

Its only going to escalate it.

How many other dictators have been executed recently?
Last one I remember was caucescu (SP?) in Romania.

My main problem here is that currently I am against the death penalty, but in the future I could be for it again. I just cant make my mind up.

I also don't think hanging is a suitable method of execution in 2006.

Its a no win situation, no one is really going to defend the guy because he's a mass murderer, however killing him is only goping to have grave consequences for Iraq.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

He didnt get the last request then? he apparently wanted shooting?
Perhaps now weighed against the lives lost while he was in power and continued bloodshed his trial was justified?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

He isnt popular enough to be a martyr. He was not loved by the terrorists either, he sat back and profitted at the expense of his people and killed anyone who spoke out of line. He was did not get on with the terrorists and victimised his people

No one will miss him.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

As I already quoted, the Sunnis are ready to spread a new wave of terror.

To some people he was a hero, to others he was the devil. The crappy situation and lack of control we have in Iraq is going to make that country a lot more dangerous than Afghanistan.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

At the trial someone was heard to say "Saddam should be bloody well hung".

Reportedly 3 of his wives were heard to say in unison, "Yes, he is" :D

But seriously, this was always going to be a PR no-win situation. You have people like myself who are against the death penalty saying his execution will make him a martyr to his followers, and others saying keeping him alive is a waste of money and he should have done to him what he did to others.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Quite agree :)
What method would you suggest? not being sarcastic with you :) just that in my book execution is what it is?
I just feel that had sadam kept quiet about his " preferred execution " he would have had a 50/50 chance ;)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

One of the horrible people who if left alive would be at risk of being got out of gaol or plotting a comeback & dead a martyr figure with much the same result.

However I would prefer to see him live but allowed to hoard paracetamol for a while till he has sufficient to end his own life ;)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I would like to first drag him through Iraq, making sure he remains awake, and in full on agony, before then cutting his hands off and then his feet, and leaving him with only enough medical care to keep him alive and awake, before making him live with no dinity on public tv for about 10years before finally letting the swine die in his own excriment.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Currently I favour lethal injection, on the basis that its quick, and relatively humane. You have to remember that the neck may not break in a hanging then the condemned is left to slowly strangle to death.

And yes I appreciate this is saddam hussein, but we cannot be justified in punishing him any more than others. Would Bin Ladin be hanged? No
This just smacks of the nazi trials in Nuremburg, none of them had much chance either.

Firing squad is bull**** macho ism from Saddam.

I also have to express my surprise that he isn't to be beheaded.


You also have the question of what to do with the body afterwards. HO Hum, they really have not thought this through have they?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I can think of leaders close to home who frown on people who " speak out of line " or their lives are made a misery,and they profit at our expense, but the fact they are not killed makes it ok?
We will have to see how things turn out, I personally see an escalation, as if things can get any worse? :erm:

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------


Maybe these were the thoughts of sadam about his people? :erm:
I dont know if going through this whole scenario actually cures anything.
Ok he was found guilty, but will the execution of one person send out a warning to others? I do not hold much hope.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

And there in is the rub. If you kill him, you make him a martyr - a pin up for all the extremists out there. If you keep him alive, you make him a hero - suffering in the prison for the cause. And every hostage taker wants him freed. It's no-win.

A firing squad has a certain cachet to it - very much in keeping with martyrdom.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

The soldiers who found him cowering in his rat hole should have thrown a hand grenade in, would have saved a lot of problems.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I thought they were going to let him off with an ASBO ! :)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

A very astute observation :)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Maybe even tag him ;)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Waste of a grenade.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Question is with all the cutbacks would there have been a grenade to throw in?;)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

When will they be hanging Bush and Blair then? they have,after all,killed more people than Saddam.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

You need to examine the amount of people Saddam killed. Not to mention most of the people killed the US/UK forces were terrorists. Unlike Saddam who gassed his own people.

So sick of these attempts to make Blair and Bush worse than Saddam.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

There are some similarities though.

Bush was elected in a very dodgy manner
Blair went to war for no legitimate reason (making him technically a war monger)
Bush is a warmonger


I doubt they are worse than Saddam but they arent entirely squeeky clean themselves.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

At the end of the day it is up to the Iraqi people to decide what to do with him..They are the ones who suffered under his regime so they get to make the choice.

What we would want done to him is immaterial because we didn't actually get anything more from him than irritation and annoyance.Can't put a man to death for that. :erm:

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I hate the death penalty. What kind of message does this send out? That death solves everything? Just the kind of message that the insurgency needs. Just lock him up for life.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

agreed. if someone is barbaric doesnt mean we need to be barbaric too.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

There are some people on this earth who need to be executed. Saddam is one of them. Had he been killed upon capture, millions of pounds would have been saved, & the rabble who follow him would have dissipated. Now, all the Iraqi`s will get is reprisals & much more killing.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

With respect, this is one of things I have a problem with in life - when people feel they are qualified enough to know who should be killed.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Oooh i was at work today, and William Hague was sat in the bar with BBC and SKY news live, as the decision was being made, i was just about to go in there til someone said:erm: :D

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Pia, you should have gone in - they may have interviewed you. :)

I think William Hague is very down-to-earth - I helped out in the by-election that got him elected in Richmond, and worked with him and a few others in the late 80's and 90's trying to encourage younger people to get involved in politics in Yorkshire; he would have been interested in your viewpoint (I believe).

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Interesting that the current UK government hasn't complained about the death sentence in this case.
I'd have thought they would be queuing up to complain about putting someone to death.

Unless of course they think him getting strung up will possibly deflect some attention from the usual bombings, beheading, torture etc. that goes on in Iraq on a daily basis.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

lol, i think the whole thing was abut the Saddam Hussein story though:erm:

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Why would they complain?
Saddam is Iraqi, convicted in an Iraqi court, sentenced under Iraqi law.
Incog is right, it's nothing to do with us.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/arti...689043,00.html

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

BBC were also reporting it as an American Backed court.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I think, if I remember correctly, in the first gulf war, Saddam employed many decoys, of which the 'allies' took out almost a dozen. They did try!

Personally, I think the sentance is just and should be passed as soon as possible. With someone of his history and following, letting him 'waste' in prison only gives more opportunity for an uprising to get him free and put back into a position of power. Getting rid of him once and for all is the best thing IMO. He will only be a martyr to those who follow him, who are restricted to areas of his home country. Let them do what they wish with regards to memory, because it won't bring him back if he's dead.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

No it wont being Saddam back, but how many innocent people will be killed in the aftermath, how many more British and other allied troops need die for this man?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

And how many already have died as a direct result of his tyrany? The very fact we are debating it means the man is getting what he wanted, and that is his name in history. Let him die slowly and painfully whilst someone is reciting the names of all those who died because of him or by his hand to him as he hangs. The man is dangerous, callous and deserves nothing more than the humility of his own people turning on him and handing out justice...

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Have not had a read of the posts above so that i am not influenced in anyway with what has been posted.

My :2cents: on this.

About time. If only so that there can be some form of closer. What he did to his people is unforgivable and i certainly agree with the death sentence just for the crime of gassing women and children.

He shouted about justice when the sentence was given. What about the justice for all those he had tortured, Hanged, shot. Where was there justice. ?

Good riddance to him and i hope they do it slow to make him suffer.


BTW i have my flame proof jacket on and my red rep return button ready :erm:.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMG https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/11/6.gif
There are some people on this earth who need to be executed. Saddam is one of them. Had he been killed upon capture, millions of pounds would have been saved, & the rabble who follow him would have dissipated. Now, all the Iraqi`s will get is reprisals & much more killing.

Russ B:
With respect, this is one of things I have a problem with in life - when people feel they are qualified enough to know who should be killed.

I`m aware that, not everyone shares my views, thats what lifes all about, but there are people who, in my opinion, need to be killed. Mass or multiple murderers, premeditated murder, child (Paedophile) killers, who, had they been executed for their crimes, would not have served a prison term, only to be released, to kill again. Saddam, & anyone else who thinks they can commit mass murder, needs to be killed, we may be showing our compassion by letting these animals live, but who is accountable when they escape or are released, only to murder again.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

That's a political comment (or insinuation) that the BBC should possibly not be making. They could as easily say that the Old Bailey is American backed, insofar as the US respects the rule of law in this country and actively participates in the military defence of this country.

The BBC is trying to imply that this may not be Iraqis dealing with an Iraqi but puppets taking care of American business. Given that few Iraqis have any affection for Saddam, personally I think he is lucky to get a rope and not a lynch mob.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

The thing is we are all putting our own slant based on our own western democratic position..easy for armchair critics to pass judgment.However it's not our country and not our judicial system.

Just think though..Saddam has been treated in a way that he NEVER afforded to the many still fully uncounted fellow Iraqis who never even got a trial public or otherwise.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Cool i'll let my youngest child throw it :)

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Perhaps Saddam would have done well to remember this in the decades gone by:

Be good to those on your way up, as you never know when you'll meet them on the way down.

And Incongnitas - we are not passing judgement from the armchair, we are merely commenting on the verdict given by the people who lived through his regime for crimes that have been proven as being commit by Saddam Hussain. There is a major difference there, we are certainly not just 'putting our own slant based on our own western democratic position'. Here in our western democratic positions, we no longer carry out capital punishment, yet the majority appear to be supporting the sentance. Surely if we put our slant on it, we would all be trying to stay 'PC' or whatever by yapping on about how it goes against his human rights. He does deserve to die as punishment for his atrocities, so let's hope it happens.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

sounds unlike the bbc. more likely imo the bbc said that some people believe/claim the court was american backed.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

from a BBC page
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6118590.stm
"In the past, you could be killed in a bath of acid for insulting the president. I have met a man sentenced to death in that way for writing a phone number on a banknote with Saddam's face on it.
His prospective executioners listened to his story, sympathised with him, and merely dipped him in the bath for a few seconds. He had some of the most hideous scars I have ever seen."

I don't believe in Capital Punishment (as it is difficult to undo the mistakes), but it is hard to feel sympathy for anyone who can authorise this sort of behaviour.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Apparently over 30% of the Iraqi civilians killed, have met their fate at the hands of coalition forces and who knows how many tens/ hundreds of thousands that is.

I did hear the president on the radio saying that this would usher in a new dawn, that they wouldn't discover anymore mass graves, which tbh I found a bit perplexing given the current climate over there!

My own view is that whilst he is undoubtedly guilty, what purpose does executing him serve, if he was the terrorist/ insurgence figure head and attacks were being carried out in his name I could perhaps see the point of it and in executing him they run the risk of fanning the flames still further Imo we have made many mistakes in Iraq and this is probably going to be another.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

And to think millions of people marched around the world to keep this man in power.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

no they didnt.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Sounds exactly like the BBC to me, after all, when the American Engineers were captured at the start of the war, the BBC made comments that if they were willing to tell the Iraqi's on television what towns they were from then they were likely to be willing to tell operational secrets.
The BBC makes me sick sometimes with it's lack of impartiality and just plain poor jounalism.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

I know, terrible isn't it?
You still get people saying "but why wasn't diplomacy used?" which just blatently shows they haven't a clue what they're talking about.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

quite often the bcc reports claims (from various sides) and because they do they are accused of being partial i do take issue with the increasing way they editorialise things and in particular interview their own correspondent but by and large i think they do an excellent job of providing an overall picture. i have also seen nothing online to suggest partiality in this instance.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------



i marched not in suppoort of saddam, but against the war precisely for the reasons that are playing out now.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

[Quote:Originally Posted by Xaccers http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/viewpost.gif
Sounds exactly like the BBC to me, after all, when the American Engineers were captured at the start of the war, the BBC made comments that if they were willing to tell the Iraqi's on television what towns they were from then they were likely to be willing to tell operational secrets.
The BBC makes me sick sometimes with it's lack of impartiality and just plain poor jounalism.

The BBC must be doing something right - everybody (left, right, liberal, libertarian) think they are biased against their viewpoint. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_New...ns_of_BBC_News
"The BBC is regularly accused by the government of the day of bias in favour of the opposition and, by the opposition, of bias in favour of the government. Similarly, during times of war, the BBC is often accused by the UK government, or by strong supporters of British military campaigns, of being overly sympathetic to the view of the enemy. This gave rise, in 1991 during the first Gulf War, to the satirical name "Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation". Conversely, some of those who style themselves anti-establishment in the United Kingdom or who oppose foreign wars have accused the BBC of pro-establishment bias or of refusing to give an outlet to "anti-war" voices. Some have argued that a current of anti-BBC thinking exists in many parts of the political spectrum and that, since the BBC's theoreticalimpartiality means they will broadcast many views and opinions, people will see the bias they wish to see. This argument is buttressed by the fact that the BBC is frequently accused of bias by all opinions in a dispute."

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Hmmm seemed to be working considering that since the first Gulf war he didn't have any wmd's, wasn't a threat to his neighbours, didn't harbour terrorists and according to Amnesty International wasn't of significant threat to his own people.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

When the woman behind the news desk after discussing the situation of the engineers then comes out with "well if they're giving out information like that who knows what other information they are giving freely, like secret radio codes" you'd be hard pressed to assign that as a claim from one of the "sides"

Really?
Were you marching against the start of the war, or matching in support of the war but against the lack of exit stratergy?

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 ----------

I think you'll find the Iraqi's in the south who were Slaughtered under Saddam, and those who he left to starve would dissagree.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Would that be the same Iraqi's who were encouraged to "rise up" against Saddam with the promise of support from the then coalition who promptly then turned their backs and left them to be slaughtered?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Would that be the coalition who adhered to international law and therefore didn't ultimately give support?
Surely you're not chastising them for following international law, after chastising the current coalition for allegedly breaking international law?
And unless you believe Saddam was justified in slaughtering them, surely you agree that Saddam was responsible for their deaths?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

i didnt see the repoirt so difficult to comment



i was marching against the war because i felt that we were being taken in on a false premise, that it would destabilise the region, increase the risk of terrorist threat against the uk and result in a great amount of death.

we may disagree about how saddam should have been removed (bearing in mind too that the war was because of the alleged wmd threat, not regime change) but to suggest as punky did that people marched to keep saddam is deeply, deeply insulting.

we are of course digfressing. i opose the execution of saddam firstly because rit replaces acts of barbarism with another and because in executing him they will create a martyr who will act as a recruiting sergeant for insurgency. and you cant kill a martyr so that martyrdom will remain an effective recruiting force for some time to come. imo an execution will hasten a descent into civil war, rather than prevent it.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

So Amnesty was right then, since the end of the Gulf war and the impositions it imposed on him he was no longer a threat.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

That about sums it up for me too. I went on the marches for teh same reason. I have no problems with Saddam being disposed and I wanted him out as much as plenty of fellow marchers. I have yet to meet someone who went that wanted Saddam to remain in power.

There had to be other ways of removing the man than Going to war with a country, under false pretenses, which consequently paved the way for a lot more hostility towards the west, as well as causing 100s of 100s of innocent deaths as a result of the war.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Bearing in mind the real justification for going to war was Saddam's inadherance to the UN resolutions giving unhindered access for the inspectors, he played cat and mouse and lost which negated the Gulf War ceasefire.

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

Unless you really do think he was justified in his actions in slaughtering the shia (which I really don't think you do, at least I hope you don't), how can you say that he was no longer a threat?
Are you seriously suggesting that all Iraqi's were safe from him after the Gulf War?
Are you denying that hundreds of thousands were slaughtered and starved due to Saddam's actions?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

No, that would be the coalition who, as I said, encouraged the uprising in the south and then abandoned the people.

I'm chastising them for exactly the reason I stated above. Encouraging an uprising has nothing, whatsoever, to do with following international law.

Can you phrase that again please, in english?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

the debate about the reasons for going to war or otherwise have been done to death on other threads so i'm not about to rehearse my arguments again. i responded only because i felt insulted by the idea that i and others marched in support of saddam. we did not and its an offensive slur to suggest we did.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I am not suggesting anything merely quoting Amnesty International, who I might add have been very vocal in reporting past atrocities the regime committed

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

So there is no international law relating to regime change by another nation?
Wow, so what was all the fuss about the second resolution then?


Not supporting that uprising however was.

Can you go back to primary school and learn how to read English please? It tends to help with debates on forums.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

So, the Shia are "another nation"?

You know full well.

Cause and effect xaccers, cause and effect.

As indeed does a logical line of questioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers (Post 34151691) And unless you believe Saddam was justified in slaughtering them, surely you agree that Saddam was responsible for their deaths?

So, by your "logic" if I don't believe saddam was justified then Saddam wasn't responsible for their deaths?

I think we know which of us needs to go back to primary school.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

So that's 4 reasons that would have ultimately would have kept Saddam in power if governments took notice. If the marchers had there way, the war wouldn't have happened, so Saddam and his sons would still be in power. That's why they marched. Of course you get those who want to sound more honourable... "I don't oppose war, but I wanted the UN to sanction it". Still amounts to the same. UNSC countries were going to veto any resolution specifying violence, so a vote for that is a vote for Saddam in power. You can't oppose the war, but then not oppose the consequences. Its either one or the other.

Also, you can squirm all you like, but if you think Saddam and his sons were just going to walk away and leave a human-rights-observing democracy in their wake, then you are naive. After Saddam, he had 2 even more psychotic and evil sons. Their power satistifed their sick urges. They had several wives each. You think between all them they'd not produce at least one male heir? You think Saddam's sons would make great parents? When would it end naturally? There have been multiple populous revolutions brutally supressed by Saddam.

I am sorry you found my comments insulting, but that's your conscience, not mine.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

Furthermore, I would have preferred Saddam to have been tried by the UN (along with 6-12 other government leaders. Yes, you, China) in The Hague, instead of war. However, 3 things are certainties. Death, taxes, and that the UN will never uphold rights and decency.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

America has found a new flag for Iraq: http://www.sayagain.co.uk/b3tapix/images/saddamflag.gif

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

The United States is, and don't you believe under international law it is illegal for a foreign nation to overthrough a regime?

Yes, I do, France and Russia wanted to get as much money as possible from Saddam, after all, they're the biggest suppliers of weapons to him, and Germany couldn't afford to go to war so in an attempt to gain public support at home, they chose not to take action.

Yes, the cause was ousting a dictator, the effect was international law got in the way.


Definitely you.
If you believe Saddam was justified, then the responsibility lies with the shia for uprising, however if you don't believe he was justified, then the responsibility lies with Saddam.
My deepest appologies, I didn't realise that you couldn't understand simple logic unless explained in many little words, I'll remember that for future reference.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

As indeed is advocating same by the use of force without international warranty or treaty. Bush Snr called for the Iraqi's to rise up and depose Saddam. The United States called for the uprising then promptly ran away when it realized it had, in effect, condoned genocide by doing so. You'd have known this if you'd bothered to read the link I gave earlier.

You forgot "In my opinion". Oh, and who is it that's getting as much money as possible from Saddam at the moment?

Pesky old international law, eh.

That is the most ridiculous attempt at logic ever. So, according to you, if I believe Saddam was justified then, even though he murdered the Shia marsh arabs, it was their fault? Alternatively, if I don't believe that Saddam was justified then the responsibility for the murder of the marsh arabs lies with him? What if good old Saddam believes he was justified in all of his actions? Are you saying that because he believes he was right then the responsibility for the deaths of his victims is their own fault? Get a grip.

At least your second effort was a more expansive attempt at making your still ridiculous point. Your wording makes even the most rudimentary of statements beyond "simple (perhaps the operative word) logic" practically indecipherable.

For the love of God man, get some english lessons.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

??? :confused:
If I read that rightly, no matter what anyone says, their "secret" reason for marching against the war was to keep Saddam in power? Wow!!!!

So if anyone marches against the Labour party, they must secretly be Tory supporters? That's logic chain is going to hack a lot of people off! :D

And all those protesters against the new Polaris base in Scotland, just want Communist USSR to invade us - no, hold on, that can't be right? :monkey:

Just because you are against one thing, does not mean you are for another - I am against Capital Punishment, but I am not for paedophiliac murderers, rapists, and crimes against the state.

Simplistic logic will get you tied in knots if you are not careful.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Are you sure you actually read it? Nothing in that link relates to the US endorsing or calling for genocide.
The closest it comes to mentioning genocide is with the retalitory attacks by Saddam's forces.
Perhaps you could quote the passage which states that the US condoned genocide?
So, in this case, the US stood by international law and didn't assist the shia in their uprising, which as that article (the one you did read right?) clearly states "at least in part" ie not soley down to the US, and they get chastised by you for that, yet when they do support regime change you chastise them still!

Oh yes, sorry, it's my opinion, just happens to be backed up by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, and France and Russia claiming to have been owed approx $8billion each, and Germany $2billion.

When it gets in the way of saving lives, pesky is one heck of an understatement!

If someone rob's a bank and gets locked up for it, is it the bankrobber's fault that they have lost their freedom or the judicial system's fault?
Do you honestly believe that Saddam didn't think he was justified in his actions against the Shia? If so, why did he do it then? If he thought he was justified, are you saying he wouldn't have thought the shia brought it on themselves by revolting in the first place?


Given that you've misread genocide into the article you linked to (assuming you actually attempted to read it), I'll be sending you a prospectus for the local adult learning center in your area asap.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

Put it down to naivete

Bad analogy, now if someone marched against a general election taking place, then that would be to keep Labour in power, whether they realise it or not, that would be the outcome.

Did they realise that without a nuclear deterrant, there would be an increased likelyhood of invasion, or more likely, WW3.

Indeed, but that does not mean you realise the outcome of your protests being successful.

You are however for them being locked up correct?
Are you aware that with prison comes the risk of release and reoffence?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

You're twisting what I say... The war, as executed, is the only action that would have/did result in Saddam being removed. If you are against the war for whatever reason (there are many to choose from i.e., too expensive, noone has the right to interupt soverign nations behavior, one murder is not acceptable for another, etc), then it would still end up in the result, Saddam being in power, whether you tacitly wanted it or not.

Twisting your voting analogy back into shape... Its like tactical voting. If you vote for LD instead of Labour to remove Labour from government, it doesn't mean you support the Tories, however, it means you are willing to have them in power if the tactical voting works. You support an action that results in Tory leadership (lesser of two evils). If it works, then you are also still to blame for putting the Tories in power, regardless whether you support them or not.

Does that make any more sense?

In a nutshell, it doesn't matter if war protesters like/wanted Saddam in power or not. Their actions, if successful, would have ensured it.

I personally don't like war. However, I don't like Saddam more. Conservative estimate, 95% chance it was going to get messed up as regime change is almost impossible to execute properly, especially in the complex Middle East. War, although horrible, distasteful, is the lesser of two evils.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I really do believe that murderers should be killed in the same way they killed others. Gas him.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

These are well rehearsed arguments. You are not for changing nor is it likely that anything I'm going to say or do will change your opinion.

The war in Iraq has cost thousands of innocent lives and it belittles those lives that people, myself included, would get into the semantics of point scoring over statements and facts, numbers and reasons on a messageboard whist people are dying.

My thoughts on the war are well documented and I'd rather not rehearse them further in an attempt to dissuade anyone who thinks that the war was a good idea or that the expense, in lives, to hang one man off the end of a rope was worth it.

You can't hang an ideal.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

You said
"If the marchers had there way, the war wouldn't have happened, so Saddam and his sons would still be in power. That's why they marched."

How did I twist that? If you had missed out that last statement, I would have been twisting your words - you didn't.

You didn't say cause and effect, you stated that was the reason.

Xaccers, you said
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar
And all those protesters against the new Polaris base in Scotland, just want Communist USSR to invade us - no, hold on, that can't be right? :monkey:

Did they realise that without a nuclear deterrant, there would be an increased likelyhood of invasion, or more likely, WW3.

The argument was were they supporting the USSR, not about invasion - fyi, I was part of the deterrent, and know all about the likelyhood of WW3 (very little likelyhood of invasion).

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Two more quick points.

1. I never said the reason people marched was to keep him in power, but whatever the reason it would have been a direct result of their actions. They still marched. They must have accepted that.

2. I never said people marched to support Saddam, I said they marched to keep him in power. You can still do that and not support him.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

Because Saddam being in power would have meant no war. Again, they marched to keep him in power, but not marched to support him. (although if you go to sites like www.protestwarrior.com you'll find people who marched that did).

People wern't marching up to the UN demanding he be removed and tried like Milosevic was. People were marching to prevent a war. The only action that would have removed him.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Punky, I am confused (sorry, I am a bear of very small brain) - you appear to state two contradictory points in one post - highlighted above.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

If I don't want you dead, but want to do something to you that that could kill you, and I do it, and it kills you, are you not still dead? I may not have intentionally tried to kill you, but the result of my actions would have killed you.

Some/most (all?) marchers didn't want to keep him in power, but the result of the march, if it was successful was that it would have kept him in power. They still decided to march. The successful result of their march would have kept him in power.

See?

It doesn't matter why they marched, the result of the march, if successful, would have kept him in power. People still decided to protest. They must have accepted that keeping him in power would be a by-product of a successful protest.

If you (or anyone else) still doesn't see my point, then draw a line under it and move on. I can't re-iterate it any more.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

So you know all about the Blackpool plans then? ;)

By not taking action to help keep a nation from expanding into other territories, you are supporting that nation's actions, whether you like it or not.

If you walk on by while one kid beats up another kid in the street, you're supporting that kid in his attack.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Thanks for not answering my question, which was how can your two statements, one after the other, support each other?
"1. I never said the reason people marched was to keep him in power,
2. I said they marched to keep him in power."

You stated they marched to keep him in power - no, they didn't - they marched to protest against, in their eyes, an illegal war. It was never going to change the mind of the government(s) involved, so your theorising is akin to the number of angels on the eye of a needle.

And in answer to your first (hopefully) rhetorical question (I think I know what you meant) - No, it would probably be manslaughter (it took me a bit of working out what you meant "If you didn't want to do something, but wanted to do something that would do that something, and you did that something, wouldn't it still be murder":confused:

But to take it at face value -
Surely wanting to do something to someone that would kill them, is the same as wanting to kill them?:confused:

---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:38 ----------

No, but I knew all about the Land War in Europe plans, and from the inside :dozey:

mmmm... Xaccers, shouldn't you be over in Iraq now, stopping the torture and killings? Or are you supporting them by not doing anything (see, I can use fallacious extreme examples as well :D )

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

I think we are yet again off topic and gone down the same cul-de-sac turned right,left and are now proceeding round and round a roundabout.

Time to bale out...

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Unfortunately you jumped it before I had chance to edit my post to make the analogy a bit more closer to Saddam.

Again, it doesn't matter why they actually marched. They could want some exercise and that would be a reason for marching. However, the protest, if successfull would have left him in power whether they wanted him to be there or not. Wether they want him there or not, if they still decide to march, then they must accept the outcome that Saddam wouldn't have been removed.

The successful result of a march would have prevented a war that removed him. Temporarily or permanantly, it still would have left him in power. People still marched, knowing this would be the result, if they were successful.

Note my edit which appeared before your post. But both analogies are the same, although the post-edit is clearer than the other. It doesn't matter what your motivation is, you still have to accept the results of your actions.

Protesters can say they wanted Saddam removed, etc, but they still have to accept responsibility for their actions about protesting. In the end, the protests were worthless. However, in another dimension, they might not have been. The protests might have stopped a war that would have removed him (force is the only thing that could have, I hope we agree on that at least).

If you still are unclear on this/my logic, I really don't know what else to say without repeating myself.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

that was your opening gambit - post #55. to say that is, at best, misleading at worst flaming . i really don't think there's much room for misinterpretation; your post indicates active support for keeping saddam in power. you can argue all you like how in your opinion that if anti-war protestors had been heeded he would still be in power, what you cannot and should not say is that anti-war demonstrators marched 'to keep this man in power.' its not true.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

If we take support to mean 'agree with' or 'encourage' then I think your logic is flawed. By not intervening does not necessarily mean that we agree with or encourage. There could be any number of reasons why a nation can't take action or we can't stop a kid attack another kid. For instance fear for your own safety, not having the capacity to name just two.

By not doing anything may mean you haven't affected the result, but this most definitely doesn't mean you supported that result.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Why do I need to to be in Iraq to play my part in bringing the torture and killings to an end?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Yeh - sorry, mate, I was replying to the posts you had posted, not the posts you were re-posting while I was posting a reply to your original posts - so, I would have found it difficult to know that you had edited your posts before I hit the reply button. :monkey:

"However, in another dimension, they might not have been" - excellent, I must remember to use that one sometime - "OK, Hitler was evil, invaded countries, and instigated policies that led to the death of sixty two million people, but in another dimension, he was really, really nice, and founded Amnesty International". ;)

As you said, I think we must agree to differ on this, as we are probably taking up too much server space with this :(

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

By doing nothing we are sending a message that such behaviour is acceptable.
Phoning the police from round the corner and letting them know what is going on so that they can intervene is doing something, how is the attacker going to know it was you?

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Wouldn't you have to "walk on by" to get to the phone around the corner?

Two good quotes from a bbc news webpage of the time - doesn't sound like TB thinks the protestors were "implicitly" supporting Saddam.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2773771.stm

"Mr Blair said he "should and does listen to the thousands that marched on Saturday" in anti-war protests. He insisted most of the marchers were not against war in all circumstances but were opposed to a war that was "rushed or unnecessary".

And a quick quote from Charles Kennedy on the same page, which (imho) think is quite relevant considering some of the comments made in this thread.
""The prime minister implies - in making his moral case for regime change - that anyone who is not yet persuaded of the need for war is somehow less moral than he is.
"A lot of people in this country will resent that implication."

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Possibly .... however, should I not walk on by, there are a range of options open to me, 'military action' (i.e. setting upon the attacker) being just one of them. Calling for a diplomatic solution is another option. It's unreasonable to paint those who called for diplomacy as 'walking on by' just because the solution they support differs from yours.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Depends which corner the phone is around ;)
The fact is, you've actually done something.
If you walk on by and then go about your business without making any effort to have the attack stopped, you're sending a message that the attack is acceptable.

Similarly, if the only way to oust Saddam was through war, and you won the protest against the war, you can't then say "oh but we didn't want to keep Saddam in power"
By stopping the war, you are accepting that Saddam remained in power.
People may not like to admit that, but its true.
If having Saddam in power was unacceptable, then the war would not have been protested.
It works like this, the anti-war people would have accepted Saddam remaining in power, as long as it meant we didn't go to war. There was no other way to remove Saddam, diplomacy wouldn't have worked, and interal revolt was a failure.
So for them to say that they want saddam out, but won't accept the only way to do it, means that they therefore accept that Saddam would have remained in power.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

And herein lies the rub imo. In Punky's statement, as well as the Polaris example, there is an implicit assumption that the protestors wanted to do nothing. I imagine there will have been loads who felt that other options had not yet been exhausted. It's not a binary distinction.

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

How exactly would diplomacy have removed Saddam?
"Hi Saddam, its Kofi here, yes, his father, would you mind stepping down and not letting your sons take over? No? Oh ok, we're angry by that, so we'll send you a letter telling you how angry we are, what do you think of that? Why are you laughing?"

Re: Saddam To Be Hanged
 

Dude, chill out. I wasn't saying it was your fault. Also, you don't have to be nasty either.