??..New T&Cs..??
 

Received my monthly bill today from NTL..DTV/Phone.. and enclosed were the new terms/conditions which come into effect 1st October...

Has anyone else received them and read them??..Are they "as before" or do they contain any new "no no"...I have not read the "old " ones so would not know!!!.

It would appear from a quick look that as they are new they could be an escape route for any really dissatisfied customers.... :) of which I am not one.. :) .

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

yep mine is now in my green box ready for paper recycling

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

That good eh?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Got mine last week too, and as you, were curious as to what exactly had changed. Started to read through them but then realised that going for a drink with mates was going to be a far more attractive proposition.

If anything was added/removed that would actually change anything significant, im sure the regular forum bloodhounds woulda picked it up by now tho.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Bet those that would havent got them yet. I have had mine but as I want the connectioni and I am happy with the connection so I have to accept the T&C or lose the connection.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I scanned it when it came with the bill, but didn't really see anything that would be any different to the customer as of now. The only part that did catch my eye was actually a new bit -

I didn't type that out though, the friendly chaps at ntl have put the changes up on their site - http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termschanges
http://www.home.ntl.com/content/ebiz...es/changes.doc

So maybe they will start busting the punks who abuse the service.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I believe they already do :)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I still don't see how they could enforce that, if someone was determined enough to fight it...

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

By cutting them off?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I think all UK ISP's at one time or other remove errant users from their system.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Can someone post the new t&c I havent got them.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

see post number 6 ;)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well, without having to resort to that, I meant...

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I imagine by giving a warning process, First written, second written, third and final, off the network.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Did those who received the new T&C by post also receive the new User Policy?

I notice that the AUP has changed again. I was still under the impression that I had a download limit of 1GB/day. I now see that I have a usage allowance (downstream &/or upstream) of 30 GB/month. Much more flexible, but it would have been nice to know about it before it came into force.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

umm what the hell is this about.


(ii) from time to time, we may contact you by mail, telephone, email, other electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax with information about our products and services (including discounts and special offers) and those of carefully selected reputable third parties which we think may be of interest to you;

(iii) from time to time, we may also share your information with carefully selected reputable companies outside the ntl group of companies so that they may contact you by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services (such as text, voice, sound or image messages including using automated calling systems) or fax to let you know about goods, services or promotions which we think may be of interest to you. We will not disclose your email address to third parties for marketing purposes without your specific consent or at your request

If you do not wish to receive marketing or promotional information from us or our carefully selected third parties, please write to: NTL Data Policy, PO Box 9521, Sutton Coldfield, B76 1BR, or visit our website www.ntl.com/home/dataprotection to register. If you write to us, please state in your letter whether you would prefer not to receive any promotional material from us or whether you would like to receive information from ntl by some but not other methods (the options are: by mail, telephone, electronic messaging services, fax and email). Please provide the same information in relation to promotional material from our carefully selected third parties. Remember that if you say you do not wish to receive any promotional material from ntl or our third parties, this will preclude you from receiving any of our special offers or promotions or those of third parties which may be of interest to you.


Ok so now all customers automatically have their phone number given out if they dont specifically contact NTL to say otherwise? I wonder how many thousands like me will be subject to this and have recieved nothing in the post yet, this might explain why I have had cold calls recently.


4.3 We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the Interactive Services and/or Internet Services. In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy,


Can understand they want to measure amount of traffic each person uses but monitoring type of traffic? I hope they not sniffing traffic.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Works out about the same, surely? ;)
__________________

Don't think really either is a cause for complaint...
- Phones- you can register with TPS which is free, and as it says, you can opt out (although, you should be able to opt-in and be out by default, I suppose) but, you don't have to get the calls, so I can't see a problem...
- Monitoring traffic- I think you'll find the right to use Packet Monitoring is pretty common ISP policy, and not an infringement of any human rights... as it stands, TCP/IP packets are pretty insecure, you only have to use AirSnare or Ethereal over an unsecured wireless lan to see that... and if one is that bothered, there are always other ISPs ;)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Thing is I am registered with the TPS and it doesnt seem to work that effectively.

I filled in the form to exclude myself and its a 28 day wait, so how many 3rd parties will get my details in that time.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Doesn't matter, seeing as you can get them busted if they call after that. ;)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

OK, I havenââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t received any of these new T& Câ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢s but from what I have read on this forum so far I do not like the sound of it.

If ntl feel like changing the rules there is not much I can do about it. However I would have thought it more ethical had they clearly informed me of the proposed changes, and given me a chance to object to the use of my data for direct marketing by themselves or of carefully selected reputable third parties. (I wonder how much they sold our details for and exactly who these reputable third parties are.)

I just hope they are more reputable than ntl otherwise God only knows what they may do with our data.

Guess when the leaflets start dropping on the mat advertising blow-up dolls we can always tell the other half it must be ntl?

End of rant.



.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

That may be true for some, but not for all. And think of the person who posted the following: I have had mine but as I want the connection and I am happy with the connection so I have to accept the T&C or lose the connection.

Surely, the crux of this matter is the fact that ntl are changing the rules and the rule changes are going to affect many members in a negative fashion. Why should someone change an ISP that is providing a technically good service because someone in a managerial department who knows nothing (and cares less) of the services offered by the company decides to make a move concerned purely with the opportunity to leverage more cash out of the business. Probably someone akin to whoever decides not to spend some cash on Customer Service.

At one time if a company were supplying rubber widgets that company would have never employed a person in any string pulling position who knew nothing of the business of rubber widgets. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. This new breed of manager might show a profit, but I often wonder how much greater that profit might have been if these guys understood their products, their customers, and the effects of their changes on customer attitudes.

No reasonable person would object to any company changing rules as long as the rules did not intrude on their lives. But I believe this change will.

I have just been in contact with my daughter who I knew was thinking of getting an ntl phone and I was going to tell her to reconsider. Unfortunately, she said the phone had already been installed. The following is a snip from our conversation

19/08/2005 22:26:11 Eric Soph if u read it carefully it says they are giving out our details to selected third parties to contact us

19/08/2005 22:27:04 Soph Eric oh yeh i know that the day we had the phone installed before even we knew what the number was we had ppl ringin about conservatories and windows and sky and all sorts

If that doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t prove the likely effects of this latest ntl †œgood ideaââ‚ ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� of selling our data, what does?

Suffice to say, and if any senior ntl bods are reading this please believe me, do not be surprised if your home phone starts ringing at peculiar times, for it will be myself complaining to you. :mad: That is not a threat but a sincere promise. All it requires is one phone call to my number initiated by ntlââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s actions.

To say that I am annoyed is a gross understatement.

Before anyone tells me to change my ISP..........I believe it's too late!

PS
In anticipation, any appropriate names and phone numbers gratefully received by PM!





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Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I very much doubt that NTL or any other company that passes details to third parties does so on a daily basis as each new customer comes along.

Most third party mailshots and phone calls eminate from info posted on websites where you have to watch out to see if ticking the box means you consent or do not consent. A wrong tick or absence of a tick can mean that you are giving 3rd parties permission to contact you even if you subscribe to TPS and MPS services.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

It's not the same at all.
With 1GB/day, if you didn't use your daily allowance it would be lost for good.
With 30GB/month, you can use it however you want. If you took a 2 week holiday at the begining of the month, your 30GB limit would still be available to use over the following 2 weeks.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yeah- but if you use the service evenly, 1 GB/day is about 30 GB/month. I realise the monthly one is way more flexible- except when you go over the 1 GB/day more.
__________________

Yeah, I appreciate it's not the right thing and can see why people are that annoyed with it- as it stands, Cable is one of the better ways of connecting to the internet and if it works, NTL BB is pretty good. There's no technical reason to change and if they're enforcing silly T+Cs it's a crying shame, as well as if they're not treating the customers well...

However there is still the choice to get a BT line and have ADSL, if ntl are kinda forcing you off the connection with silly T+Cs, that was more the point, it is a free market...

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I suppose this depends upon your individual circumstances. If you work from home or are likely to be near the phone and are inclined to pick it up instinctivly when it rings. It could become a problem, especially when you find someone trying to sell you something.

There is a bit of a problem with the TPS, it only covers calls made FROM UK telephone lines. It does NOT cover calls from other countries. Which explains why most of the "cold calls" to numbers in the UK originate from outside of the UK, such places as Amsterdam and the USA where TPS regulation has no effect. Even though they have their own systems in effect, they don't accept complaints from outside their own countries boundaries. The effect of this is of course that once upon one of these lists, you are likely to be plagued by such calls.

This is how it should be. But it was decided that using it this was in the best interests of "business to explore other opportunities".

Here's the problem. With the existance of the TPS register, the value of peoples previously personal details has risen. Therefore advertisers and indeed businesses who wish to capitalise on such "untouched territory" ie: telephone numbers (Ex Directory) of people who have received little if any sales calls are worth more than those that have. NTL what with it being an "international", "Global" company will in all likelihood decide to sell your and my details to a company outside of the UK. So registering with the TPS\MPS\FPS will have little effect.

At the present time, NTL has a "business relationship" with their subscribers and as such can contact (us) them from time to time to further increase revenue. Unless we have specifically told them we are not interested. So technically, there is no reason to change the T&C's.

However, I imagine they are finding this a bit of a bind and as such by revising the T&C's they are looking for a way of overcoming this. This to me sugests that they are intending to supply our personal details to companies outside of the UK who shall be only too willing (for a suitable fee of course) to call target UK consumers in a bid to sell their wares.

This may not be a problem now, but it could become one. Especially when you consider that once the details are passed on, they will goto the highest bidder. Once they are out in the open, despite NTL's expected denials there is no way of controlling what an individual company will do with them and who they share them with and to who they shall pass them onto.

NTL will in all likelihood state at one point "No geographical information shall be passed onto such companies" sugesting that we don't have too much to worry about. Of course this protects them, as it means they have an additional list to "share" with various companies who are engaged in direct mail marketting.

What they will fail to tell you however, is that these telephone calls frequently are recorded and take the form of "Hello, this is James\Nora\Andy\Jane calling from NTL, is this Mr\Mrs xxxx, can you please confirm your address for me?" You reply confirming your address. Or not, if like myself you say "You are NTL, you tell me" they will reply with "Sorry Sir\Madam, we cannot do that as we are bound by the data protection act, we need you to clarrify who you are". The problem here is that it sounds like a call to report something is wrong with your account. When infact it is a sales call.

They will then move onto offering their "opportunity" to you. At which point you may decide to listen or advise them you are not interested. However, that company now has an "existing business relationship" with you, which entitles them to phone you again at a later date. Something which it is entitled to do under the guidelines of our very own Telephone Prefference Service. It may mean a "no" to NTL whilst they are under contract to call people advertising NTL's "additional services", but it also means another name on a list for the company making the call. That is another name that has previously not been called or has had limited exposure to sales calls and as such can be called again by them or whoever they sell their list too.

Of course may not be a problem for you personally, but for others it may be. Also worth a mention is your mobile phone - ever given it to NTL for contact purposes? If so, get ready for an influx of text messages, not to mention MMS messages which aren't governed by any body, even the TPS.

Also, worth a mention is the "automated calling systems", these things can be configured to not "hang up" (terminate) a call should the person receiving the call decide they don't wish to listen and just put the phone down. The result being that you go back sometime later to make a call, dial your required number, only to find that instead of talking to your favourite Aunty, your line is tied to the people you put the phone down on earlier. I have personal experience of this which unfortunately left me with an unusable phone for 24 hours whilst the auto dialer hung up. I phoned NTL about it and was told "sorry sir, there is nothing we can do - have you tried calling the number and asking them to hang up".

Do you see a "cause for complaint" yet?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

What has got me angry is that I ticked the appropriate box when I signed my initial contract so if I was automatically unticked so to speak they could have broken the original contract.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well when we took ntl phone out when it came out, we chose to be ex directory and have never (!) received any cold calls.

About the internet monitoring, I thought they monitored shopping habits anyway already.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I know, I am in exactly the same situation. I made sure I ticked the appropriate boxes to not disclose my details to other companies, be they "specially selected" or otherwise.

What I find funny though is that in order to clarrify the situation to NTL. A situation that from a customers point of view doesn't require clarrifying. They expect you to write a letter, then pay for a stamp to send it to them. Now we all know that the postal system is less reliable than it used to be, so this letter may never be recieved by them should they make the mistake of sharing someone's details they should not have.

Quite ironically, they have chosen to not use their own email service either. Which kind of begs the question, do they trust that when you send an email it shall arrive, if the inference is to be believed. They obviously do not.

Or of course it could be that they making things deliberatly more difficult as it shall benefit them. As people shall maybe not bother sending a letter as it requires more effort. I am more likely to suspect the latter explanation is the correct one.

What I do find interesting however is, that the T&C's have been changed and the caps on broadband have been tightened up. Some people more suspicious than I might suspect that they are concerned about the emerging VOIP technology and as such are trying to squeeze the last drop of profit before they find themselves with loads of customers who aren't accessible through standard landlines and so they have unplugged their phones in favour of a VOIP connection. Of course such people may just be paranoid, but its something to think about. ;)
__________________

Good for you, I wish I could say the same :(

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Err, how many people have had phone calls from third parties as a result of the changed T&Cs ?

None ?

If you previously indicated to NTL in some way that you didn't want this to happen, how do you know it will ?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I would sign up for the TPS anyway, but I would also consider activating anonymous call blocking too.

We have received a lot of calls from third parties over the last few months despite being on the TPS. I usually do the following on phone calls:

1. ask if they're selling something
2. find out company name and some other info if possible
3. ask how they got our number (they usually say "a local database")
4. tell them "well, we are on a database that means we should not be receiving these types of calls. Companies that do not check this database before calling risk being fined upto 10 grand. I'll give you 2 options... 1, I report your company and you get fined as you could potentially lose your job... or 2, you hang up now and I wont say anything".

the last phone call I had ended quickly with the guy at the other end saying "OK, bye" :D


Before the last couple of months, we've had basically no calls at all from companies like this.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

i should imagine that anyone who has already opted out, will stay opted out, otherwise they'd be breaking the DPA legislation, which would involve a lovely set of fines.

if a company calls you, and you think its as a result of ntl passing on your details, get the address of the company over the phone, and write to them asking for the info they have on you (legally obliged to provide this) and where they got it from.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Tried that before they just hang up and with the number been untraceable they get away with it.

I started getting cold calls for the first time during start of july, about 3 weeks after I signed up to the TPS, previous to that I had no cold calls. So my guess is either the TPS provided the details or NTL did. Of course it could be anyone like my bank it is almost impossible to find out.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

tis true. quite often what seem to be cold calls are legitimate - information is shared over large organisations, trading under different names - financial companies are a good example. many people don't recognise having any dealings with a company that is owned by the same people as their bank etc - i know as i worked in call centres for two sister companies.

of all the things to worry about though, cold calls are of little consequence, although annoying i appreciate.

i usually have two responses to them - a. hang up straight away, b. string them along when i fancy a laugh/am extremely bored!

EDIT just as i posted that - what happens - cold call! from america trying to sell me a holiday to florida! not sure if it was a recorded message or if thats what american call centre workers are trained to speak like! just hung up! ntl is registered in america isn't it.....hmmmmmm :rolleyes:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

My brother in law answers the phone, and they say they want to speak to whoever (Mr or Mrs) and he says "oh, I'll get them for you" and puts the cordless phone down on the side of the sofa and carries on watching telly only stopping to pick the phone up after 10mins to see if they're still waiting :p:

Most of the time, they know how annoying cold-calls are so they wont give out any more information than they have to (i.e. company name etc). I would imagine they have been told NOT to give out the company address and if asked, they got the persons number from a local database (thats what they ALL say).

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Very interesting.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Wow.

They finally realised that they were on a hiding to nothing with not sending out contracts or confirmations to customers.

There may just be some signs of intelligent life high up left at Ntl after all!

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Helloââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚¦



Could anyone help me and redirect to a brunch of a forum were NTLââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s new services or projects are discussing?



Thank you in advance!

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Anything specific ??

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Care to confirm the source of this info?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

That makes interesting reading.

Most posts I have seen here over the years suggest that people haven't actually signed anything.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yep. For a long time in my old region the only people getting signed contracts were the ones who were visited by field sales agents (who probably lied through their teeth about the details anyway)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Hmm, haven't some people being saying this about unsigned hire agreements for some time?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Bank loans are regulated under the consumer credit act, they ( bank loans ) are only enforceable if the agreement is signed by both parties, I see no difference between this and A HIRE AGREEMENT which basically is what you have with NTL.

Orangebird, in short no.
You read it and either accept what it says or not, If I had just taken NTL services I would be very interested to have this info to hand if things go tits up with the service I am paying for.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

But unless you could prove that this is from a reputable source, you're in danger of being laughed off the complaints/cancellation phone line.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

That looks like it's been lifted straight off the ntl Intranet to me (I'm sure you were thinking the same thing ;) )

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

What would be gained by exposing the source?
I have no intention of calling complaints/cancellation phone line, but somebody else may do so, given what you say neil, it must be reputable info then?
Wonder what it would be worth on e-bay? :erm:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

0.00p.

Wouldn't even bother entertaining the idea.

For your information - I have deleted the post as I think this is very sensitive information that has been lifted from somewhere not meant to be in the public domain. (As well as being a copyright breach) Unless you can specify another or link to a legitimate source - The post will remain deleted.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well the key part of it (about an unsigned ntl agreement being worth **** all because it's a hire agreement) is not sensitive information at all. I think the more people who are made aware of this the better.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Not that I can find, which is why I think the info was obtained very dubiously. Well done to Mick for removing it. I have a spare flame proof suit if you need it ;)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well done Mick :tu:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Are you saying the link does not reflect true facts?
However obtained it shows NTL are a pack of liars when they say that a customer only has a 7 day cooling off period, depending on the circumstances, the cooling off period is indefinite.
Removing the thread is pandering to NTL imo, just have to post it elsewhere, give people the opportunity to see NTL for what they are.
Any members wanting to see it, quite happy to pm.
__________________

Obviously not as far as some people, people who work for NTL, see it cr80123.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I'm saying nothing of the sort - I'm not saying a word until I can see the saource of the info. Only then will I believe it.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

The cooling off period is 7 days unless ntl screw up and don't send you the correct paperwork - it's not a lie to say it's 7 days - that is the policy - the same applies to any company, so you are saying every company are liars ? The thread was removed because you don't have permission to publish confidential documents, nothing to do with 'pandering to ntl'. Nor was it removed by anyone who works for ntl. Get your facts right.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I had a signed contract and I ordered over the phone.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Did I say it was removed by someone who works for NTL?
No I did not.
The document states that if the customer does not receive a signed copy of the agreement in the post then the cooling off period is indefinite," we cannot enforce the contract on the customer "
What I will say however is that there are people who do work for NTL who will happily tell someone that they only have a 7 day cooling off period, and that NTL do not send out confirmation or signed copies of agreements in the post, tell me, is this not lying?
Make your own mind up.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Absolutely. I've seen ntl employees on both this and other forums claim that an unsigned contract is enforceable, even when linked to the relevant act of law!

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Maybe if you walk into your bank in the morning and say to the manager " I would like a £10000. 00 loan but there will be no need for a signed contract "
I wonder how long it would be before you';re shown the door?
NTL must be a cut above consumer law.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Funnily enough I signed up to have a BT line in my flat without signing anything. And they held me to a minimum term when I cancelled it.

But yeah it's just Ntl. :rolleyes:

They really are the most evil of all companies :dozey:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Well sorry to hear that, more fool someone who doesnt demand it in black and white with all respect.
You would'nt work for someone without a signed contract, what is so different when it costs money?:rolleyes:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Presumably you just rented the line off them though. It's the fact that ntl hire you the set top box/cable modem that makes it a hire agreement, which most certainly requires a signature to be enforceable by law. I actually got rid of my ntl tv and phone within the 12 month period (neither of them worked properly) for this very reason. Unfortunatley you can tell certain people this until you're blue in the face, they won't listen once they have their ntl caps on.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

.

It is not an hire agreement - ntl provide you with the broadband/TV/Phone services - this is what you are paying your monthly subscription for - the equipment is provided free of charge, how that can be an hire agreement is quite frankly beyond me. :rolleyes:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Rubbish. Someone like Sky provide the equipment free of charge i.e. it is yours to keep once you have fulfilled the minimum term. NTL require the return of equipment, it is never yours and therefore never provided free of charge.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

The point that you seem to be so inept in grasping is that your paying for and subscribing to the services (Broadband/TV/Phone). I never said the equipment was to keep - the equipment is provided free of charge whilst using the services - this doesn't make it an hire agreement just because you say it does. :rolleyes: :angel:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

They are " regulated hire agreements " in NTL';S own wording.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Again though can you prove that? You posted something today and failed to supply a legitimate source - so you cannot say it is in ntl's own wording because of a failure to prove it. Otherwise its just pure speculation. :zzz:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

my bill says 'primary set top box' = £0.00

ATV Family pack = £13.50

Line Rental = £10.50

cable modem = £0.00

Broadband Internet 2MB = £24.99

- that says my equipment is supplied FOC - and I pay for the service, I use. So long as they maintain their equipment for free, during our contract, I am happy with that. :)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Er no it makes it a hire agreement because they want the equipment back. They hire (or lend if it makes it easier for you) it to you!

See this is exactly the attitude I mean. We have a (presumably internal) ntl document posted admitting they can't enforce unsigned contracts, I can assure you I got out of one after consulting a solicitor for that very reason, and yet still we have people willing to argue that it's not the case presumably out of some sort of internet stupidty/stubborness. I mean if I was to meet you down the pub, show you the above mentioned ntl internal document, tell you I'd had it confirmed by my solicitor that it was unenforcable due to the fact it was unsigned, and that I'd got out of my contract early for that very reason, what would you do? Stare into your beer and say it doesn't make it a hire agreement just because I said it was?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Snore all you like mick, it seems to have rattled some cages.
Because it has been removed now people cannot judge for themselves, but it is plain to me it is not something done by someone one boring evening.
How would a scammer know information such as the legal department email address?
Because I will not disclose the source it is seen as a scam, see it as you and anyone else want, but one thing I do not do is condone a witch hunt, which would happen if I did disclose the source, I have a few more scruples than that thanks, and plainly more than NTL do.
Cheers.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Or maybe I know that I had agreed to keep the line for a certain length of time and didn't run off whining when I cancelled it and had to pay a minimum term penalty.

Believe it or not a few people in this country still do have the ability to respect agreements without needing to have them signed in their own blood and a squadron of lawyers checking them every 5 seconds.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Thats a very admirable attitude, and all very well if you are dealing with companies not of the reputation of NTL, but even then youre entitled to a contract, and entitled to have that contract adhered to just as much as they expect you to adhere to it.
There is no minimum term penalty if you have not received a copy of the signed contract, or have not received a welcome pack.
Also, they are required to inform you of your rights to cancel when theyre on your doorstep or at a stand, otherwise theyre breaking the law, your right to cancel has to be in writing.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

:spin:

Again - I will reiterate that customers do not hire the equipment. You are paying and subscribing for the 'services' ntl provides. The equipment that ntl provides to allow you to use the services is free of charge during your use of the service. There is no such thing as an hire agreement associated with the equipment that ntl provides.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yep, thats my recent experience with BT, contract posted, signed by them and a statement that if you don't want it call or don't let it be installed.
__________________

Didn't we start this debate here too?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...849#post577849

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Ok Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢m convinced! If someone lets you have something for a fixed period and then wants it back theyââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢re not hiring (or lending!) it to you, we havenââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t seen a document posted with ntl admitting they canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t enforce unsigned contracts, you didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t remove that document then, astonishingly, have the nerve to cast doubt on the validity of it, I didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t go and see a solicitor who didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t confirm that it was an unsigned hire agreement and therefore unenforceable, ntl didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t back down when my solicitor wrote to them pointing this out, I didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t get out of my contract within the minimum term and am still paying ntl for my tv and telephone service.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Now the document has been removed, but I think it said they 'had difficulty' enforcing the contract. Possibly due to people like yourself who are always looking for loopholes and trying to get something for nothing.
What is cheaper for Ntl? Dragging you through the courts to get a minimum payment off for the rest of the year off you or disconnection?

Anything posted on here without proof of where it came from is suspect. If I knocked something up in Word stating that Tony Blair eats children and posted it would you believe that too?

Again what is cheaper for Ntl?

To be perfectly honest I'm sure they were glad to see the back of you if this is the way you acting in your dealings with them.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

:clap:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

So can I just confirm - do you still have the STB etc from when you were an ntl customer?

I'm just checking because I haven't been an ntl customer for years, and I've still got one of their boxes in my cupboard which, seeing as I no loonger receive bills from ntl, rather suggests that you don't pay for the box.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Eh?I just wanted a tv and telephone service that worked consistently. How is that trying to get something for nothing?

Ovbiously I wouldn't believe that Tony Blair ate children (the fact that you chose such a moronic example is a measure of your debating skills), however if someone posts something that I have first-hand experience of, and what they post directly confirms my experience, then yes I tend to believe them!

NTL haven't seen the back of me, I still have a broadband connection with them. Why would they be glad to see the back of me? Because I'm prepared to stand up for myself?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Seconded

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yes of course it does. Because ntl are too incompetent to pick up some boxes, it means they aren't lending it to you and it's not a hire agreement.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

That's rather my point - if you (as a customer) were required to pay for the use of the box, ntl would ensure that all boxes were returned / collected at the end of the contract / whenever they stopped providing their services.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Sorry Mick but you are wrong. I have just dug out the Customer Service Agreement that I signed when I first took NTL services and it clearly states

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

But Ian - you are not hiring the equipment as I keep saying. ;)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Hire of equipment or services?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Then why does it have plastered all over the agreement that I signed that it is a hire agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974? Have a look at a copy of the agreement and tell me why it is issued under that particular act.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Hire of services or equipment?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

I haven't read all of the agreement as there is no need to. The simple fact that it states that it is a hire agreement under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is sufficient to make it a rock solid contract under that act and be subject to the law regarding that act.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

:spin: But your not hiring the equipment. :angel:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

But, using the TV as an example, aren't you effectively hiring the channels from ntl? To me, this makes more sense as, if you don't pay the bill, you lose the channels but not the equipment.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

What are you hiring then that means that they give you a contract under the auspices of that particular act? :angel:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

ACCESS TO TV CHANNELS

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

"The Consumer Credit Act applies to our residential contracts because we hire equipment (STBs and cable modems) to customers. This makes them "regulated hire agreements".




What is your comment on that?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Proof of source?

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

And NTL are out of the woods in the manner that they deal with people? wake up man! they treat people like excrement on the heel of their foot.
By the way, the source who gave me the info I trust more than any of some toe rags that will tell you the sky is green when its blue!

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Good for you. But until you can provide the source of the info on here, I wouldn't give it a second glance. What is your problem with naming your source? :rolleyes:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

You take it as you please, either believe it or not, i wont be losing sleep.
But when somebody I know has issues with NTL i will give them a copy of the info and advise them to have a talk to trading standards or the cab.
Not telling you or anyone the source does not mean a thing.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

You're on a mission. Bless you. Get a life. :)

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

The word " witch hunt " strike any bells?

But you obviously do not believe it so it doesnt matter, your opinion is so dogged anyway.

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

Yes - your witch hunt with ntl for starters. Are you a frustrated law student or something?
How do you know what my opinion on anything is? :dunce:

Re: ??..New T&Cs..??
 

On a Mission? not at all.
I cannot help it if someone sends me an email can I?
No need to bless, I have a great life.