Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

"The Co-operative Bank has asked an evangelical Christian group to close its account because of its anti-homosexual views.
The bank said the opinions of Christian Voice were incompatible with its support for diversity." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4617849.stm

An interesting one. Whilst I share the Co-op's consternation at CV's views I'm not entirely sure about refusing to let them hold an account. I say this purely because there is an issue about where organisations draw the line. On the other hand the Co-op does make a good point about supporting diversity within its workplace and elsewhwere. Equally CV raise a valid point regarding where this leaves other religious groups with similarly homophobic views which, rightly or wrongly, are grounded in their interpretation of their religion.

So I need some help making my mind up on this one! ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Surely political/moral/religion views should not be a priviso for your banking needs, rediculous.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Same here. I am a big supporter of gay rights, so on the one hand, the Co-Op has done good. On the other hand, this is a forum of censorship with the Co-Op determining what they consider people should she and read, which I really despise.

This always comes up with freedom of speech. Eventually someone is going to say something that hurt's someone's feelings, so where do you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable? I would rather people not be upset by intolerant views, than to censor people who may upset someone, but its hard to do it that way.

This is a free country, and they are able to serve whoever they want. If that's what they want to do, then good luck to them, I suppose. It is a good public relations exercise, I guess lots of people will move to them in support of their descision.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Well, the co-op has always touted it's self as an ethical bank, not doing business with companies that use sweatshops, extremist groups, so this action is really inline with it's 'mission statement'.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I'd say they are entitled to their opinion and don't think they should have been forced to close their account.

Other people may not agree with it but I don't think banks etc. should decide who is and who isn't allowed to hold an account.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I actually DO see the logic of this situation.

The term Co-op comes from cooperative.This means a diverse group of people who buy,trade and work together and in return for being a member of the group get certain benefits back.So how can a Co-operative bank accept the diversity of it's members if one of those members has issues with other members of that group?

I remember the days when the Co-Op paid out dividend to it's members.My mother would take me out for a celebratory meal. :D

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

imo religion is not an excuse for racial or sexual intolerance, nor is it even mitigating circumstances. whether this is for the bank to decide is much less clear... but the co-op do pride themselves on being an ethical bank, and they clearly do not fit the bill.
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i suppose i agree with the decision for corporate clients, but that begs the question of whether they can (or should) extend it to individuals. mush less solid ground :shrug:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I trust they will not be letting any Islamic groups open an account with them also? As they too oppose homosexuality.

Pah! who cares anyway, it's their little bank they can do what they want. I'm sure the CV wont lose any sleep. They'll probably fina a better rate elsewhere anyway.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I bet they wouldn't dare do it to an Islamic group........too much risk of a PC and/or violent backlash..............

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

maybe that's why they did it, to set a precedent with a xian group... thus avoiding and possiblty of being labelled racist/sexist/other-ist themselves?

cynical, moi? ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I'm aware that many Christian views are misunderstood and/or unpopular with current issues however any faith or section of society is entitled to own them. I recall there was a similar situation recently with the BNP being asked to close their bank account. Regardless of one's controversial views, people are perfectly entitled to see the world in any way they deem fit. Taking the Co-op's view, it's as if having anti-homosexual views is *wrong* - and I believe this is not the case. Holding such a view may be seen as undesirable or even ignorant, but nobody has the right to decide someone's views are wrong.

However looking at the greater picture, the Co-op is entitled to decide who they want as customers - they don't have to give someone an account.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

people, absolutely. organisations, i'm not so sure...

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I don't see why that make a difference - a group of people is not too far connected from an organisation.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

On the issue of Islam I wonder if the Co-op provides Islam-friendly bank accounts. But, if they are going to pursue this policy, I would certainly expect them to be even-handed in their treament of religious groups who espouse similar views, be the Islamic, Catholic or whatever. That is not the same as excluding those religions as the issue of homesuxuality etc tends often to be an interpretation. With CV it looks to be a message of 'hate' that has sparked this.

Of course none of us would I'm sure have any problem with the Co-op refusing to deal with the BNP or Combat 18. As I say it's a question of where you draw the line. Having said that the Co-op is free to pursue its ethical stance, or being cynical, it's marketing plan. I have seen little sign of them adopting ethical stances towards employees of CIS who seem to get the brown end of the employment stick.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I suppose that they should be admired for putting principals before profit having said that I think it is a shame that people are not more tolerant about other peoples lifestyles

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

How can you say they are not tolerant? Does the evangelical movement in question go around petrol bombing homosexuals' homes? Do they go about "gay-bashing"? Or do they just speak out against a lifestyle they feel is sinful? Would you say a local neighbourhood watch group is being intolerant at speaking out against gangs on youths/hoodies who congregate outside shops? Do they take the time to get to know the kids in question or do they just feel uncomfortable about them being there?

Just because a group dislikes a certain lifestyle and speaks out about it does not IMO make them intolerant - everyone is entitled to dislike a section or group in society - it's the people who beat them up, torch their homes and campaign to get them moved on who are the intolerant ones surely?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Christian Voice's response: http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press001.html

"Stephen Green retorted: †œOf course we make †˜discriminatory pronouncements on grounds of sexual orientationâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢. We have been criticising homosexual rights ever since we started eleven years ago. Standing up for righteousness is what we do. www.christianvoice.org,uk In fact you could say there are dozens of such pronouncements in my own book †œThe Sexual Dead-Endââ‚Âà ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�, which was published in 1992. It is a conviction of our Christian faith that homosexual activity is sinful; in fact that it is an abomination in the eyes of God. It is also a conviction of ours that the Lord Jesus shed His precious blood to forgive the sins of all who put their trust in Him, including sexually-active homosexuals. We told the Co-op bank when we switched to them three years ago that we were a voice for Biblical values and that we promote traditional family life. They raised no problem with that at all, and at no time did they tell us about their militant pro-homosexuality."

Abomination, as opposed to sinful, is a pretty strong word.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I do not condemn some one for being a Christian as long as it does no one any harm I also do not condemn some one for there sexual preferences as long as they are doing no harm. I thought being a Christian was about understanding and forgiveness?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I must say judging from that statement they seem to be pretty strong in their views however I see nothing which makes them intolerant. They are speaking out against what they see is wrong and they are entitled to do so. Being a Christian does not mean you have to agree with everyone and everything. I have to say that the last 2 lines of that statement say enough to make me take their side against the Co-op's stance.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Russ - Do you think the Co-op is "militantly pro-homesexual" (whatever that means!)? I'd put their position closer to tolerance of different lifestyles. Their argument seems not to be that CV cannot be entitled to hold a view that homesexuality is sinful, but that they cannot promote a "hateful" message about homesexuality and homosexuals and remain a Co-op customer.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

No, I don't think that's a correct assessment of the Co-op but it's the sort of description you could expect from a group so against homosexuality

I don't see CV (so far) promoting a hateful message which I think you'll agree is a subjective expression. I haven't yet read enough in to their ethos to decide whether or not their stance can truly be considered hateful when many liberals (and I'm not aiming that specifically at you) consider most/any people or groups against homosexuality to be 'hateful'.

The Co-op would have been aware of their views when the account was opened so unless CV had recently undertaken a campaign of violence or crime against homosexuals, I see this as little more than a PR stunt.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I'm not sure why the Co-op has used the term 'hateful' myself although some of the pronouncements on the CV website, as we have seen, are pretty strong.

And yes, the Co-op either made a mistake when accepting CV or it is a PR stunt of which they are quite capable. Looking at the reporting (media and CV), it may be a bit of both.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I think the key phrase is this:

Criticising gay people for their lifestyle choice is one thing (which people should be able to do, same as if they chose drugs), but it is an entirely another thing when you try and deminish their basic rights as a human being, for being gay. That is most certainly not on. Gay or not gay, they unquestionably should have the same human rights. I'll be interested to know what rights homosexuals have that CV doesn't want them to. I think they'll certainly agree with that other Christian group who said the other day that gays should be branded with warning labels to protect non-gay people from them :afire: :rolleyes:

EDIT: Article about the warning labels: http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/06/061305pride.htm
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Theocra...seesholtz.html

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I think the Co-op has done right and good on them, we are not in the dark ages anymore and people should be able to express their sexuality quite freely with out fear of being gay bashed. And yes lots of my friends are gay and I am always sticking up for them, if more compaines did things like this, then maybe this country would not be seen as a walk over!

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

WTF???? :mad: :mad: :td:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

They could certainly be construed as harassing gay people; "The letter [from CV to constabularies] complained about policemen and women marching in full uniform in the London Gay Pride March 26/07/2003 and urged Chief Constables to stop actively recruiting homosexuals."
http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/police.html

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I know.. F-n terrible isn't it? No sane rational person could believe it, and even as that article said all its evidence is flawed, but there are so many people out there who'll lap this crap up, because it is what they want to hear... :(

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

It makes me sick and suppose these people are perfect and have never ever done anything wrong?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Err, banks are businesses and are free to choose who can or cannot have an account with them. They don't have to justify their reasoning.
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Not all Islamic groups hold to the strict interpretation of the Koran, just as many Christian groups don't consider homosexuality to be an abomination either.
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Ah, now this puts a slightly different complexion on matters. If they want to object to homosexuality, that's their business, but when they say that others should be *denied* rights because *they* don't like it, that's another matter entirely.

"Militant pro-homosexuality"? Oh dear, now they're getting a bit desperate! And just because they say "we are a voice for Biblical values and promote traditional family life" doesn't mean that they said: "we think that *you* shouldn't treat these people the same as everyone else because *we* don't like what they do".

IMO in this case the Co-op did the right thing.
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I don't know whether to :rofl: or :banghead:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

What a bunch of hypoctrical ignoramuses the CV are. Good on the Co-op AFAIC. :clap:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Change 'homosexual' to 'criminal' and that gives it a different perspective to many people. I'm not equating homosexuality to breaking the law but it shows how people's views differ when you change the section of society in question.

Nobody has said anything about 'gay bashing'.


Whereas I'd stop short of calling that harrassment, I'd agree that it's certainly unhelpful behaviour. Victims of gay-hate crime may well open up more ( :erm: ) to a like-minded officer.

No-one has ever suggested they are perfect.

Absolutely - however they leave themselves wide open to accusations of hypocrasy and pandering to the pc-brigade. Whether or not this bothers them is another matter of course.

:tu:

I don't want to make a habit of this but again I agree with Graham :eek:

I think in your haste to take sides against the religious group in this story, you may have chosen the wrong wording - a group which stands up for what it believes is hardly hypocritical. Allowing gays in to their ranks then speak out against them, now that would be hypocritical.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

The hyposcray I stated comes from this - I thought Christianity was all about forgiveness and tolerance. With reference to their stance on gays, I see neither.

When it suits, eh? :rolleyes:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Then you may need to understand Christianity more. Yes Christians are to show forgiveness and I'm sure the organisation in question would not be against any homosexual who wanted to join them and showed repentance for their 'sin' (note: I am not trying to get you to agree that it IS a sin but if for a moment you can see this from a Biblical perspective). In the same way I'm sure they would not turn away an ex-thief.

As for tolerance I don't know enough about the CV to know their true stance but I don't see anything wrong in speaking out against that which you disagree with. As I've said, being a Christian does mean being a doormat and throwing all your principles out of the window.

Not sure what you're implying there.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I'm sure you meant 'doesn't'... :erm: ;)



You say the Co-op are leaving themselves wide open as hypocrits - You could say the same for the CV.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Yes - that's what I meant :dunce:

Not really, as the CV stance has been made clear from the start, unless you know something about them that I don't? I admit I haven't fully read their ethos yet.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Can we cut the comparisons of gay people with criminals Russ, maybe you could try and explain your point without comparing us at all? I find it rather distasteful.

On a side note I bank with the Co-op and they my be ethical on big issues like this but not on things like opening proper current accounts for people with poor credit history (but great credit currently). Maybe a look at their own views on customers would be beneficial as well as looking at their customers views on others.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Read all my comments in this thread please. I'm using it as a point of reference so people can compare the situation with people in society whose lifestyle they may disagree with. I've never once said homosexuals are criminals and would never ever do so unless of course they broke a law.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I'm sure he has Russ. Whatever else you've posted, the following quote is pretty absurd, and distasteful:

I should bloody well hope peoples views do differ bewteen the two. :erm:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Me too and I don't see why it's obsurd - I used it as an example as to how the CV sees homosexuals. If they view them as criminals then yes, they're out of order and I'd hope people would resist any attempt at pushing that view on the masses. However there are many who campaign for criminal's rights and equally many speak out against them - are they intolerant?

Can I just make it plainly clear that I'm not saying I believe homosexuality is/should be illegal and if this is the view of CV (as it appears to be) then I certainly disagree with them.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I think I understand what you mean Russ but I can see why it's stoked controversy. Yes people have different views and that informs their world view but I'm not sure suggesting replacing 'homosexual' with 'criminal' was very diplomatic!

Off topic, but criminals have rights too ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Yes they do but that's not the discussion here ;)

Again I wasn't suggesting homosexuality is on par with crime and I apologise if anyone took that to be what I meant however I wanted to use an example which everyone would recognise.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I have Russ, and i still say please stop the comparisons, it's not nice being compared with a criminal. Can you not get your point across without comparing gay people to X, Y or Z?
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No, because Criminals have done something wrong (gays haven't), and part of their punishment is withdrawal of some of their rights. How else do we punish people other then forcing them to do community service or lock them up?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I don't think Russ was comparing homosexuals to criminals m8 (that's not how I read it).

I think he was just trying to show that the 'genre' is not relevant, you could have inserted any group instead of criminals.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I agree that gays have done nothing wrong but I think Russ's point is that CV perceive them as doing wrong and, therefore, in their (to my mind warped) world view promotion of 'rights' is also wrong.

I'm not sure what they mean by promoting 'rights'. Having equal opportunities policies is not the same as promoting rights so having a pop at the Police is totally out of order. Gay police men and women going on the Pride march is no doubt promotion to CV - I see it more as protection of rights.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Thanks to neil for putting it well - I just used another section of society that people would identify with

Yes I know they have done nothing wrong in your eyes (and also in the eyes of just about everyone else, myself included) but the CV obviously do not subscribe to the same kind of 'laws' that you and I do, therefore their views differ which of course they're entitled to. At the same time, a person or group cannot IMO have such extreme views without getting a backlash such as the general puplic perception of them and the resultant actions of the Co-op.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Can we move on?! ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Good idea - for a start I'll alter the title so it doesn't look like we're discussion the sexuality of ants ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Put a hyphen in coop while you're at it! I don't know, these bl**dy slap-dash posters. If I had my way I'd insist that those that commit such errors be made to go to the pub right now and drink Guinness to atone.







I'll get me coat (quite literally!). :D

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

See you down there mate, mines a bitter. ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

Is it though? Or is it a business decision specifically aimed at attracting the "pink pound"?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Ant-Homosexual Views
 

I don't think it's a case of attracting the 'pink pound', more like the 'pc pound'.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Religion is one thing - Christian Voice is something far more ugly. Like Catholicism, it's fundamentalism at it's worst. Supporting such organisations is no different from supporting terrorism. The Co-Op acted in a socially responsible and moral way.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

More like in a "scoring PC points way".

I'm no part of CV but I take slight offence at you saying they are no different from terrorists. I don't hear of CV blowing up buildings, killing people or holding people hostage, do you?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Maybe not CV, but plenty of their ilk blow up abortion clinics and attack doctors, etc. There are terrorists who are rapped up in a fundamental christian guise. Totally unacceptable, especially in the name of religion.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Ok, I'm not a mod, but *TIME OUT* guys...!

Please, we've had enough of this in other threads, we don't need to drag it all up again in here! :Peaceman:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Could I just pipe up with a wee complaint? :erm: Attacking arguments by crying "politically correct" or "the PC brigade" is intellectually vaccuous. Can we have an intelligent discourse or I'll start on about hangers and floggers ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Well terrorism isn't really any of those things - it's the fear of those things. I was highlighting that fundamentalist organisations, such as the CV and Catholicism, both affect lives in a negative way. To be honest, I think CV et al are far more damaging.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

OMFG!!! I never thought I'd see that!!! The end of the world cometh!!! :D

Seriously, Graham's spot on here guys. This is another of those threads where people seem to be choosing their words rather carelessly (I am giving the benefit of the doubt, obviously).

Yes, this is an issue which many people will feel strongly about but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it sensibly. Instead of attacking eachothers point of view we should try to explain our own with clarity.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

For my part, I am sorry if my post appeared inflammatory. It was never meant like that. It was only to provide evidence of what I thought GC was about, but it seems I missed his point by quite a margin anyway.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Just a reminder of the subject up for discussion ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Number of issues getting mixed up together, I think. :erm:

Well, this CV organisation doesn't like me very much, does it, though I can't remember meeting any of them so I'm not sure what I did to upset them ;)

I'm not too bothered about them losing their bank account, but on the other hand suppose the bank had a Christian ethos and forced, say, the Pride organisers to close their account because of their 'pro-homosexual' views? I'd be pretty angry about that.

Companies have got a right to choose who they do business with, but what if no other bank wants to do business with them? I can't see its right that they shouldn't be able to have a bank account because of their (legal) views. Whose responsibility is that?

I don't want to be asked about my politics/sexuality/beliefs when I go to open a bank account, I just expect to get treated the same as any other customer. In this case it's an organisation rather than an individual, but the principle is the same.

I think the best message the Co-Op could have sent would have been to say 'you may be a bunch of bigots, but we're not, we accept anyone for who they are, so we'll continue your account and treat you just like our other customers, because that's the difference between nice ethical people like us and nasty bigots like you'. :)

Incidentally, no-one's mentioned the right of Co-Op staff to be treated with dignity and respect. I wonder if these CV people had got the sense/courtesy to keep their bigotry to themselves if they ever found themselves dealing with a bank employee who was/they thought was gay?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Well seeing as this is about CV and not 'their ilk', that argument seems a little impotent at the moment.

Intellectually vaccuous until you see rules being changed purely on the basis of being politically correct and 'appeasing the opressed' as I see this to be.

So have CV been suspected of doing any of those things? Have they threatened violence, death etc? If not then I can't see how they spread the fear of anything.

Unfounded assumption - we don't know if any CV member has caused any hassle or problems for any gay staff member, although some people would like to think they had.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

When did I become angyl? Or is that just a politically correct way of demonstrating I'm in touch with my feminine side :)
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Well you'd better define politically correct then -there is a liberal conundrum with this topic, hence the tenor of my initial post and the interesting debate that should ensue. Pulling the old PC rabbit out of the hat adds nowt. And appeasing the opressed? Hmmm.


Where I believe the Co-op is on firm ground is the difficulty gay members of staff may have serving a client so deeply homophobic. As a comparison, a black person serving a Ku Klux Klan member?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

You become angy when I have a 2 year old child climbing over me when I post :disturbd:
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The oppressed group here being homosexuals?

AFAIC as long as the KKK member you're referring to keeps his opinions to himself or a CV member being served by a gay employee keeping shtum about his/her views then I don't see a problem with that encounter/transaction.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

How would a gay Co-op Bank member of staff who knows anything about CV feel when someone visits a branch with, say, a cheque book identified as "Christian Voice Current Account"? The organisation publicises it's views.

PS. It was the 'appeasing' I was perplexed at.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Probably similar to how I'd feel if I worked in a bank and was serving a skinhead in a Arsenal top (I'm a Man United supporter). Unlikely reference? Possibly but I'm sure not all the CV would have such ferocious views.

Why? It's almost customery for companies to make decisions which favour the oppressed in society.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

You say that comment Russ as if you resent the oppressed in todays society;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Absolutely not - what I do resent is token gestures disguised as responsible decisions.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

very true

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

As many probably know, I spend a lot of time out in Florida. There still are too many dumbarses walking around with confederate crap on themselves. I was standing at the counter of a certain fast food establishment, waiting for a special order to be cooked, so I let the line through. The guy behind me was a redneck with a confederate t-shirt and confederate bandana. You would have thought the civil war was still on. The redneck was very rude and disrespectful to the black server, but he did nothing, said nothing served him and that was that. I said to the black guy: "You really have to put up with s**t?", he just sort of shrugged and said it didn't bother him.

That black guy was great. You can't stop people being racist, but you can deny them the pleasure of hate by rising above it. The same applies for sexuality issues.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

The Christian Voice org is totally out of step with society, the government and the law in terms of sexual orientation discrimination. They must surely realise that they have no hope of reversing or stopping what has already gone on. Their homophobic pronouncements seem to be made as a modern day recruitment drive for other homophobes to join their clan rather than some embarrassing biblical reference that they otherwise might only bring out in closed meetings or low key theological discussions. The effect of what they loudly proclaim just divides our society rather than bring it together.

I think it is perfectly apt that a company that aligns itself with diversity and tolerance should get rid of anyone with such outdated biggoted views as the CV.
I find it quite obtuse that the CV think that they are ones that are being discriminated against on religious grounds. One gets the impression that some religious groups are incapable of looking inward and think that the best form of defence is to attack.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Supporting United or Arsenal is a lifestyle choice




And what colour is the sky in your world. Business, generally, is interested only in business. The Co-op may well be making a pitch to an 'ethical' market but customary for companues to favout the oppressed - that is complete and utter crap. If so, then we would not have poverty.
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And Russ, anyone who joins CV without understanding what they stand for is clearly not intelligent enbough to be allowed a bank account without a guardian's signature.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

You think the only people who join them are those who agree 100% with everything they stand for?

Come on....seriously, tell me you don't really think that?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Their anti-homosexuality stance is pretty explicit so they'd have to be pretty numb not to spot it and therefore agree with it. So, yes, I'd say 100% agreement with that viewpoint.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Interesting...you surprise me.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Why? Have a look at the website. If its members don't understand what CV stands for then why are they members?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

You're the one who mentioned the subject of them not understanding the CV ethos, not me.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

If someone is a member of the BNP, but doesn't agree with them 100% (whom probably most of them don't), then does that make it alright? You are either part of it, or you aren't.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I'm not saying it's alright, you should know better than that. And I disagree that "you're either part of it or you aren't". I'm sure there are lots of people who agree with the BNP's principles and detest the violence and knuckle-draggers, which of course is off-topic.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Exactly. I wasn't saying CV members had acted in such a way, just that the Co-Op would have to consider the possibility that they could act that way to one of their employees, given the statements CV made.
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I suppose saying that it did bother him would be admitting victory for the bigots. I bet it does bother him though :mad:

But yes, I've found the way to deal with people who are bigoted - or just rude - towards me is to treat them with excessive politeless and courtesy, to show the difference between us :)
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Perhaps, but they wouldn't join the BNP then would they? ;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Why not? It's a way of showing support.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I said that if they didn't understand what CV stood for then why be members. Not sure if you're being wilfully obtuse on this thread or not Russ ;) The comparisons you've drawn have, at times, bordered on the totally nonsensical!

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I just don't see why you're suggesting the possibility that they may not understand the CV 'way' - it's certainly not anything I've brought up.

And with your last line, much the same could be said about yours too! :D

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I'm suggesting they'd have to be as thick as B&Qs entire plank collection not to realise how central homophobia is the CV. Assuming they are not, then they support that homophobia.

I refer the honourable gentleman to comparisons to criminals and football teams!

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I really thought you were more intelligent than that - let me explain.

The people who go to that church may not agree with everything it stands for. Perhaps it's the closest church, maybe their relatives go. There are plenty of reasons why they might not agree with everything CV stands for. Nothing to do with not understanding it, as you can now see.

I mean, if you're going to be deliberately cynical about it, why should I give you examples at all?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

And I thought you were less obtuse than that. Homophobia - homosexuality being an 'abomination' - is one of CV's central messages, they have been actively campaigning as such, so the assumption that its members concur with is is based on a pretty sound premise.



I mean, if you're going to be deliberately cynical about it, why should I give you examples at all?[/QUOTE] I'm just pointing out that some of the comparisons you have drawn have, er, lacked rigour. Suggesting a United fan would be more upset to be served by an Arsenal fan, than a gay person serving someone who thinks they are abominal.

The quality of your debating skills on this particular thread have meant the issues get blurred, ignored or confused. So. on that note, I'm outta here.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

That's a relief :)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

What, their support for the violence and knuckle-draggers?

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

No, their political views and ideals and you know it.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

What 'I know' is that anyone who joins the BNP supports their actions.

Anyway, we're waaaayy off topic now. ;) Let's not mention the BNP again.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

It is like some people are members of certain groups say mormons or catholics, but they not neccessary belive in everything that is said, am I right in thinking that Russ. I still do stand by the co-op as nobody should have to put up with views like that.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/ Home page. Apparently the Govt is encouraging kids into homosexuality (among other things). FFS.
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OK, I'm back in the game. How idio-f***ing-otic is that? People don't know what the BNP stand for? Ask anyone what the BNP stands for. They are racist *****, violence or not. That's the point. Now, you are a CF administrator so, IMO, you should be considering what you post a little bit more.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I wonder why they have a password protected area...

Perhaps not all their material is suitable for the eyes of the general public? :shrug:

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Now where did you grasp that from? Because I certainly have not said or suggested it.

In just about any discussion on the BNP, you'll find people saying "I agree with their principles, but not with the beating-up of people".

Thank you for your advice.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

for any idiots out there BNP = British National Party.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

LOL :tu:
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Silly old me. In comparing CV to the BNP I thought you were comparing CV to the BNP. An honest mistake



I suggest you read my post again. I said violent or not, they are racist. If people support the BNP's racist policies they are racist. If people support CV's homophobic views.... do I need to spell it out? EDIT: In just about any conversation about the BNP you'll fine people agreeing with their principles? I suggest you get out more.



Not a problem. It's free and you need it. Consider it charity.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

and...
CV = curriculum vitae
;)

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

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Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

Yes, silly old you. Asking if people know what the BNP stands for. Especially when I've never questioned it. Was just wondering why silly old you said:

Yes they are. However many people agree with their immigration policy for example, without wanting anything to do with the violence.

I suggest you be careful what you say.

As above.

Re: Coop Bars Christian Voice For Anti-Homosexual Views
 

I am sick to death of saying this until I am blue in the face - will members please not swear no matter if you star it out or not - failure to comply with this request may result in accounts being suspended. :mad: