Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

So back in November or so I fitted a spare hard-drive to my computer and installed Linux -- Fedora Core 3 to be exact. I did this because we use Linux on my university course, and I wanted to get familiar with it (and being able to SSH to uni is very handy).

I've been using it a lot since then, and in fact it's got to the stage where I now use Linux about 95% of the time, if not more.

Anyway, my brother came down to stay for a couple of days. He saw my computer and was curious about the OS. He'd heard of Linux, but didn't know much about it. His first thoughts were that Gnome "looked okay, but the fonts are a bit strange".

He then told me to "impress him". So I fired up Firefox. Look, I said, it's a great browser. A Google seach box right there. Just start typing and it seaches. No popups, no Active X. "Yes, I know," said my brother, "I use Firefox on Windows"...

Well, okay. I started OpenOffice. Look, I said, you can create a PDF with just one click on the taskbar. "Oh," said my brother, "that's good. Can I get that for Windows?". Yes, I said....

Next, I decided to show off Linux's media capabilities. I put in a DVD and ran Ogle. All well and good. My brother eyed my 5.1 speaker Audigy setup. "Can it do proper surround sound?", he asked. Probably, I replied, but I'm not sure how to set it up...

So games, then. I started Doom 3. He was impressed. The graphics looked fantastic, the sound was good. "Does it run as well as it does on Windows?" he asked. Well, I said, performance is 90% of the way there...

Then I showed him Gaim. I pointed out that he could have all his Yahoo and MSN contacts together. That he could merge them so he just saw one contact, and could message them using either protocol (and any others he might sign up for). Again, he was impressed. I didn't think I'd mention there was a Windows version. I'd scored a point here. Until he said, "so how do I use the webcam?"...

He asked me if it was easy to set up. I replied, cautiously, that it wasn't too bad if you knew what you were doing. So he asked again: would it be ready to use without him having to do anything but click a few options. I thought about having to set up the update repositories for Yum. Probably not, I said.

"So," said my brother, "there's nothing I want to do that it actually does better than Windows, and lots of things it does worse. It's more difficult to set up and a lot less user friendly. I've got a decent antivirus and firewall for Windows, so those things don't bother me. And it doesn't even matter that it's free because I paid for Windows when I bought my PC."

"Tell me," he said, " exactly has it Linux got going for it?"

I couldn't answer him.

Can anybody else?

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Tell him he's right. :)

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Let me tell you what Linux cannot do when I tried to play with it (been playing with Linux for Years btw)...

Tried using Skype while listen to Winamp type program, cannot be done on default install, sound device is in use. Need to Jump through hoops and recompile Kernal and XWindows to Get ATI 9600XT working 3D Wise. I cannot play damm .Mov Files apart from in the web browser...the list goes on tbh..

I get the same spiel from my mate who owns a Mac - here is what I often say back:

* I have not rebuilt windows for a LONG time now
* Not had a program which crashed the whole O/S yet
* UnKnown Programs wont run automatic unless I tell it to.
* Anything trying to talk on the net has to get my permission
* I have not had a Virus - simple as that (combination of not installing anything that I come across, Decent Virus checker and dont open mails I dont recognise or with Attachments..)
* I do not get Pop ups on my IE, FF now I do......
* Trillian can do all the Chat programs in one..
* I can plug in some hardware and it works..brill

I still feel linux has a long way to go on the desktop front, if you spend long enough with it, its great...

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Once linux can be setup as easily as windows I'll consider using it more regularly, as it stands I have an ubuntu box that has no wireless networking, no sound, unable to print or scan, doesn't recognise my camera, steering wheel, joypad or joystick and the external drive seems to only be running on USB1.1

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Exactly, but if he wants a server...

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Horses for courses. It's all down to a personal preference whether you think Linux or Windows can do things better than it's alternative. It's a red herring to compare Linux with Windows anyway, the only fair way to do with it is to compare individual distributions as Linux is only the kernel. On the usability stakes it's a bit unfair to lump say Fedora and Gentoo together. Perhaps some people feel that this is the problem, that there is too much confusion over the choices in Linux distros. I would disagree with that and would be mortified if everything revolved around one single distribution and window manager.

Personally, I find my Slackware and Fedora core systems to be far more usable and flexible than XP because it suits my way of working. If you think Windows would be a better choice for you, then use it. The world would after all be a more boring place if we were all the same.
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Hmm, what version were you using? I tested Hoary Hedgehog 64bit (the most recent) and it had no problems with any of those things (except the wheel as I don't have one, and my wireless network as it is a daughterboard rather than a pci card).

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Imo linux is only any good for people with the aptitude to get good at using it,from what I have seen there are few if any variants that will install easy and just work .Lets face facts general public do not want to have to learn how to compile installs when most of them cannot even set up outlook,Windows was developed to be an easy gui and it is for the most part simple

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Whatever the latest 64bit version is. I started tinkering with NDISwrapper to get the wireless networking up and running but decided that it really shouldn't be such a kerfuffle installing a card that was automatically installed and configured during a Windows XP 64 install, drivers installation should go, download, double click setup.exe and it's working, I never had to do anything else with any of my hardware under windows and I'm certainly not going to fanny about in a console under *nix.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

This is an interesting point, would average Joe Public have any more luck with installing Windows on their machine and getting it up and running than something like Fedora Core (which I have found does just work). MY G/F, who is of fairly average computer ability has absolutely no problems with the Gnome desktop I set up but wouldn't be able install Windows. I would imagine that it's the same for most people, as long as somebody else is administering the system they are okay.

It's okay, I wasn't going to try to talk you into using a Linux distro :p I was just genuinely interested in the problems you had. I do agree with you on the issue of the drivers. There are good reasons why driver installs have to be like that for the moment, hopefully it will change in the not to distant future.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Last time I tried Linux (RH8 I belive, so a long time ago). I had to tell it what a double click was, and it took me over an hour to figure out how to. Nuff said...

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Installing it isn't the issue, and you should know that. It's getting your hardware to work with it, take (for example) a user (me, who still can't get it working under linux) who has a canon scanner that needs installing under windows, in goes a CD, it autostarts, you follow the prompts and it's working. Are you seriously trying to tell us that it's that simple under linux?
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Linux reminds me of that sketch on the Fast Show

"So this is the bus is it? So I get on it do I? So I pay you for the ticket to do I?"

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

^^^ what bifta said


plus:
most average users buy pc's with windows installed with simple restore packs,imo linux is firmly aimed at enthuisiasts at the least or IT professionals
Windows set up isnt really that difficult ,few questions few options then drivers as a rule install easily as long as you have been provided with the cd when pc was sourced

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Well, with FC3 all I had to do was plug my scanner (HP) and it worked :shrug:

I would like to reiterate my point about horses for courses at this point, there's no absolute 'better' it's about a personal choice. E.g, you think it's better for an install to happen with a double click, I personally would rather type a command. Surely there is room for both methods?

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

I'd say it's pretty much a given that more hardware is supported under windows and any hardware that's not supported is a LOT easier to install.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Another fact to face is like it or not microsoft have a monopoly in the home,most software is written to run for windows,this gives windows users more choice and thats good for the consumer,its just to late to do anything about microsoft

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Sure there is. But at the moment, my feeling is that Linux does not have much to offer (over Windows/Mac) for the large majority of users. If you prefer Linux, good for you, but I'll stick with windoze

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

A command? You ever tried installing NDISwrapper? slightly more than "A" command, personally I'd say it's much more practical to have a wireless NIC set up automatically.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

I did have a Mandrake box which I wanted to use as a wireless print server. The wireless worked just peachy, but I could not, under any circumstances get linux to print to my printer (one of those free Dell rubbish). I had to ditch it for Windows. :cry:
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If memory serves, it took about 3 commands, and it was explained well in the readme file.

If you don't want to mess about with that, Linuxant provides a guided GUI setup for installing wireless cards using their XP .sys files on linux, but you have to pay.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

I think certain posts in this thread illustrate the problem with Linux and Hardware.

With Windows (and to a lesser extent, Mac OS), you can plug any hardware in, and even if the OS can not automatically install drivers for you, it's often a just a case of bunging in a CD to get the hardware working.

It seems a little bit more complicated than that in Linux. Remember that to become a mainstream OS, Linux has to be simple to use. This includes installing hardware. To use an example based on the posts above, if Joe decides to buy a wireless network card, he or she won't want to be bothered running (& configuring) NDIS wrappers. He or she would want the OS to install it automatically.

Note, this isn't an attack on Linux, as I personally agree with phillipjfry, you should use what you are most comfortable with and what suits your needs.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Er no, slightly more than 3 commands, what planet are you on?

1) Download the windows driver from relevant site

2) wipe any previous attempts at installing ndiswrapper

sudo modprobe -r bcmwl5
sudo rmmod ndiswrapper
sudo apt-get remove ndiswrapper-utils
sudo rm -r /etc/ndiswrapper/
sudo rm -r /etc/modprobe.d/ndiswrapper

3) Copy the bcmwl5.inf and bcmwl5.sys files to your desktop

4) Open a terminal then: sudo apt-get install ndiswrapper-utils
sudo ndiswrapper -i ~/Desktop/bcmwl5.inf
sudo ndiswrapper -m
for conffile in /etc/ndiswrapper/bcmwl5/*.conf; do
sudo cat $conffile | sed -e 's/RadioState|1/RadioState|0/' > $conffile
done

Which is all well and good, but you'll need to have internet access to do this, so you'll need to run a cable to your wireless router

5) Reboot

6) In a terminal, sudo modprobe ndiswrapper

7) Wonder why it's still not working

8) Reinstall Windows XP 64 and notice how your wireless card was automatically installed without having to use a CD or download anything.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

:LOL: very similar to my experience

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Downloading isn't counted as a command. It doesn't use the CLI for a start.

If you are installing it for the first time, then you won't need to remove the existing references.

Copying the files to desktop is hardly tough command to do. People could even use the GUI if they find it that difficult.

So that leaves section 4, which contains 4 whole commands. All they have to do is read off a text file and type what it says, it's not rocket science.

Or they could download before connecting the router?

Which is why every USB device for years always has a big sticker on it "installer drivers before connecting device".

Still, if manufacturers released linux drivers in the first place, it would be as easy on XP. The fact that a some random programmer has managed to create a device wrapper for XP system device files for Linux, is phenomenal. Plus it shows manufacturers hardly need to go to big lengths to produce native linux drivers, surely.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

What point are you trying to get across? It seems that you're arguing for the sake of it unless for some obscure reason you really are living in la-la land and honestly believe that for the majority of the worlds inhabitants it is actually easier to install all manner of hardware under Linux.

My father bought a printer a few weeks ago, he phoned me as he's completely non-technical (like most of the population) and asked me how to install it, he'd already worked out where the USB and power cables went, I told him to put the CD in, it autoran, he clicked next a few times followed by finish and he was able to print.

Now picture the scene if for some reason he was sitting at a linux box

"O.k. open a terminal"
"A what?"

I'm sure there's a point to that but I'm struggling to find it.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Have you tried linuxant ? I haven't got round to testing it yet, but have heard many good things about it. It allows you to use WLAN drivers in linux in much the same as NDISwrapper does. You get a 30-day trial before you have to buy it to see if it works, plus then it costs a whole £11 to buy, which is a small amount, when you consider that the OS was free.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Linuxant won't get my printer, scanner, joystick, pad, wheel and soundcard working ;)

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Funny, I thought you started this. Oh well. The point I was trying to make was that you ridiculously exagerated the install. It is 4 commands. If someone is so incompetent at computers they can't read a file and type out 4 commands, there is Linuxant (although if you can get that far you should be able to type 4 commands). End of.

I never said that, I have made many posts saying how un-user-friendly linux is, but your post #20 was just silly.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Yep I own a License for this, shame ive sold my laptop so have no wireless hardware atm but meh, its great for the price and so easy to use :)

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

I never said that, I have made many posts saying how un-user-friendly linux is, but your post #20 was just silly.[/QUOTE]

Here, I'll tell you what, as you think it's so amazingly simple, please give me instructions for installing a Belkin F5D7000 (Broadcom chipset, supported under ndiswrapper) Wireless NIC on Ubuntu, I'd also need to specify a WEP key.

I await your oh so simple, guaranteed to work instructions, I'll then get my non-technical girlfriend to follow them, but that shouldn't be a problem, according to you all she has to do is type 4 commands, so, feel like a challenge or are you going to cop out?

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

Here, I'll tell you what, as you think it's so amazingly simple, please give me instructions for installing a Belkin F5D7000 (Broadcom chipset, supported under ndiswrapper) Wireless NIC on Ubuntu, I'd also need to specify a WEP key.

I await your oh so simple, guaranteed to work instructions, I'll then get my non-technical girlfriend to follow them, but that shouldn't be a problem, according to you all she has to do is type 4 commands, so, feel like a challenge or are you going to cop out?[/QUOTE]

Funny you should say that. I already have a Belkin F5D7050, and it installed fine for me. All I did was read the readme file and typed what it told me to type. No real magic, or independent thought to it.

I never said the instructions were guaranteed to work (noone can say that about anything, including XP). You didn't seem to read me the first time, i'll repeat. I didn't say Linux was easy (it isn't). You still only enter 4 commands wether you think that is easy or not.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

No, you don't only enter 4 commands. You're COMPLETELY missing the whole point yet again. 4 commands will not magically install Ndiswrapper and get your card working, and if you think it will, you need your head examining.

Re: Linux users help me: I'm tempted to the Dark Side
 

In answer to the first post you were right to not answer your brother, I used to work for Sun Microsystems and whilst Solaris is a lovely OS when up and running it is just too much hassle to use at home.

I want to click things and have them work how i want them when i want them to.

Windows XP is very good at doing that for me.

Linux isnt