Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Well not quite, but I do go along with the idea of making young offenders work to the benefit of the community. I see no reason why they shouldn't wear uniforms like mentioned in the article, it would possibly bring shame on a percentage who wouldn't want to be in that situation again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4548253.stm

Quote: Ms Blears also said she wanted parents to enforce sensible bedtimes for children and restore "structure" to family life, such as eating meals together.

Oh thats the answer then, early to bed and eat meals with your parents and you cant go far wrong. :rolleyes:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I've said for a longtime that offenders should be put to work on the transport infrastructure of this country or within communities. There are always roads that need repairing, verges that need clearing/ tidying up, fences that need repairing, homes that need decorating etc. It's time for offenders to take a more possitive role within the community, many of them would probably be happy to get out in the fresh air for a while under the proper supervision. Maybe if they look upon this sort of work alongside good behaviour as a way of allowing offenders to take a small ammount of time off their sentence we would all gain.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I think the problem with this sort of thing is the majority of victims of crime want the chavs to seen to be suffering for what they did - as useful as community service is, I don't see people being satisfied with that.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

There are always sewers that need unblocking/ repairing ;)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I've got to agree with here I'm afraid, most of the Kids I know go to bed when they feel like it, eat when they feel like it and cause trouble when they feel like it. Some as young as 6/7 are allowed to stay up until they fall as sleep watching the telly, how on earth are they suppose to concentrate at school the next day?

Oh and how many teenagers just come and go as they please with no curfew, no wonder their families cant keep track of them :rolleyes:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Uniforms are an excellent idea. They should be bright pink as well.

Its a shame that she doesn't want to go down the road of chain gangs, as I think it is a much better system than just letting people lounge on their beds all day, or play pool, or computer games or whatever they do.

You're right about that whole eating together thing. To go back to the way things were, people often think we need to emulate what people did back then, but it isn't necessarily the case.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Surely it's a better punishment than just locking them up in a cell with a play-station and as many pornos as they can stash in their locker!

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I have (and no doubt will keep having to) blamed lazy and ignorant parenting for a lot of the problems people are facing from abusive kids these days. Not all kids are bad because not all kids have parents that allow them to go further and further off the rails.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Oooh, that'll teach 'em! :erm: It says it was sucessful but I can't for the life of me see why. They want to give up drinking hanging around with their mates, and goofing off, because they'll be afraid of being force to make hanging baskets again?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Remind me to ask to be transferred to your local nick if I ever decide to become a crim :D :p:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Just 'cos its not breaking rocks or building stuff doesn't mean that it's not hard work, and if it saves the council money on buying them in then I think its a great idea.

I've said for a long time those at our local jail could be used to sort through our recycling rather than pay someone to do it. Would that be demeaning enough for everyone? :p:
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I've seen Bad Girls/Oz, I know what goes on ;) :p: :D

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I would force them through traning in building demolition etc while in Jail then send them out on a pitince wage and make them build us hospitals schools etc for a fraction of the price.

Of course the severity and brutalness and worse the crime the worse the job to a relative impact of mass murders and the plain weird would be locked well and truely up.

But the mass chav morons would be put to making useful buildings for us, and also cleaning up our roads. :D

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

That sounds like a much better idea. Point taken about the money saving aspect, but I personally it would be much better to weight the punishment on making it more of a deterrent, than trying to save the council money.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Interesting read.

http://www.youthinformation.com/infopage.asp?snID=474

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

there's too many kids round here who are now the 'greys' - ie. the hooded chavs - as per the recent ban from that retail centre which made the papers last week.

their leaders are even more sinister.

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0121766/92534_R.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0121766/77167_R.jpg

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Whilst I agree with making young offenders "work off" their crimes because that has been shown to have a better rehabilitative effect, I do not agree with this idea of uniforms (especially in bright colours)

Humiliating someone is *never* a good idea to try to get them to behave in a certain way and I also feel that this is more likely to be used as a "look, we're doing something" gimmick by the government because they can have photo opportunities of Ministers standing next to prisoners saying "See, we're tough on crime" even though there's no proof from America (where they use such schemes) that there's actually any positive rehabilitative benefit from it.
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This is a little off topic, but on a side note, although I'm usually against "reality TV" style programmes (because they're very often simply "low rent TV"), I do think that the influx of programmes like "House of tiny tearaways", "Supernanny" (or whaever they're called!) etc are actually a good thing

Hopefully at least *some* of the people who watch them will pick up some tips and bring their children up better than they may have done otherwise since there's no real "how to bring up kids" information easily available.
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So you want a bunch of *criminals* to be searching through paperwork that people may have thrown away that could contain bank account, credit card or other sensitive information...???

:shocked:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

There was something on the news within the last few months, mentioning that prisoners were recycling and obtaining bank account info at the same time.

Bright pink, green and yellow costumes with a tall yellow pointy hat for clothes as far as I'm concerned. Why not humilate them for ther crimes!

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Let's remember that 90% of young people are not thugs,bullies,criminals,vandals or any other kind of misfit.Let's rejoice that so many of them are respectable members of society.:clap::handshake:


The 10% that are, deserve everything that the legal system deems correct for them provided their human rights are observed.

Otherwise I have little to add in this matter.;)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Completely agree with you on all of those points Shaun, its the same around here too :td:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I do agree with you that 90% are not thugs, bullies, criminals or vandals....However the 10% that are represent quite a large number, I am sure someone will be able to quote figures for school leavers. We must also remember that many of these young offenders re-offend often on much larger scales of crime, and the 10% figure is a rolling figure being added to every year.

I guess I am really saying that young offenders dont just have a timeclock that stops them from being bad, they can if not corrected progress to more serious crimes and often do, after honing their skills with other offenders.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Why?

I reckon their punishment should be to continuously walk up and down Swansea's Oxford Street wearing a T-shirt saying "Yes I have had an accident or injury in the last 3 years - come and get me".

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Yes but by concentrating on the bad eggs we tend to ignore the better behaved.If we are going to have the stick effect for offenders perhaps we need the carrot for the 90% that deserve some sort of reward for being well behaved instead of being tarred with the same brush as the yobs.To keep banging on about yob culture is to give the nicer teens the idea that no one cares about them and to give so much of the public a fear of any group of teens who just happen to be going about their lawful business.

:)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Before we get too excited about 90% this and 10% that, let's remember that reality may not be quite as we assume. Below a link to a Home Office survey that helps to get figures into proportion.

Young people, crime & anti-social behaviour

I think our problem here is once again negative news is news and positive news is not good news both for our media tabloids and even the broadsheets and sensational TV items. We know from everyday experience there are youths who make a positive contribution to society and these individuals ought to be given more praise from our dear friends in the media.

Given there are issues with what seems or appears to be a considerable mischevious segment of youth we need to ask a number questions. What can be done to diminish reliance on banned substances how can this cancer be routed out from society? What can be done to advise parents who have no parenting skills or just plain anti-social themselves to raise their children in an acceptable manner? What can be done to encourage youths to become more involved in sports and other worthy possibilites rather than hanging around street corners bored out of their tiny minds. In other words it's fine to have anti-social behaviour orders, good thing, but we should not ignore the challenge of providing worthwhile activities for youth.

As far as providing uniforms, bright pink etc? I'm not sure, it's an idea being floated, people want the government to be firm but how far can it intervene? Government is investing in better neighbourhoods and raising local initiatives but in the end is it not communities themselves who should be more involved. Maybe, if everyone put their TVs into skips we may find a way of communicating with each other again!

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

'Parents'-plural?..........Thats asking for a lot isn't it Whats the rate of single parent families running at atm?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I've searched around for single parent statistics but couldn't find anything meaningful. But not all single parents raise hoodie wearing drug peddling lawbreakers! ;)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I think we also need to consider the message we give, as adults, to young people as they are growing up.

The distinction between what is criminal or not, has become blurred. Otherwise perfectly law abiding citizens think nothing of saving a 'few bob' by buying smuggled booze, or tobacco, for example. We condone the fencing of stolen goods & the proliferation of pirate & counterfeit goods, by buying them at 'boot sales'. The definition of the words lying & stealing, appears to have changed....

Then the 'planet of grab' society we live in, appears to offer an insecure future where hard work & polite behaviour are rewarded by mediocrity, while the brash & rude, curse & cheat their way to the top.

Where icons of everything fashionable & desireable are shoved in your face 24 hours a day. Where having the right labels, the latest gadget, the right 'look' is considered more important than anything - especially more important than courtesy, or consideration for others, lets push people out of the way to get what we want...

I'm amazed how any young people manage to survive all that & get anywhere near 'decent & honest', myself.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

You do have some valid points there, teenagers need all the latest designer trainers and clothes to keep up with their mates. I guess shoplifting amongst teenagers for clothes could be in poor or single parent families.

My parents were very skint when I was young because they were both under 17 when I was born, (probably a bigger thing back in 1966 than today) I never seemed to get as much spent on me at christmas as many of the other kids, I never really had any pocket money either. However one thing I can honestly say, is I never stole to make up for it. If I had of the punishment would of been far more severe than the majority of kids would get these days.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

According to Sky News, Human rights group find this "idea" is degrading to the criminals.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

There was time when a status symbol was just that, it showed you had achieved something - nowadays just having the object is considered an achievement. How you aquired it, or whether it is even genuine (what is the point in a fake Rolex fgs ), doesn't seem to matter, anymore.

My son was caught stealing from us, to fund a need to 'keep up' with his peers, in his case over whose collection of Games Workshop figures, was the best. We made him sell it all to pay us back - but the best punishment was making him realise how hurt we were at the betrayal of trust and how we may be able to forgive him, but would never be able to trust him the same, ever again.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Of course they do - wait until they (or their family members) get burgled/mugged/happy slapped or whatever and I'm sure their opinions would differ slightly! ;)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Yes :tu: Although you have to remember that some of that 90% are like me :disturbd:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Oh great, let's demonise our children by ignoring the facts and going along with the Daily Mail's view of the world, that'll make them grow up to respect us and our laws.

I'd be interested in this if I could be assured that, say, directors of companies who fleece people of millions in pension mis-sellings or politicians who take bribes (or Jeffrey Archer) would be sweeping the street outside in a lurid pink suit with **** on the back. Somehow I doubt they would (and they are the ones who tend to end up in rather comfortable open prisons rather than the rather small number of persistent yobs who cause trouble).

As for making them do useful jobs around the place, this isn't the 1950s. One major argument against, say, national service is that the job of Average Squaddie today is far removed from what it was in the 1950s - there are far more specialised roles, equipment, training with other NATO forces, IT etc. and it's likely the Army wouldn't be particularly happy to be diverted from its primary task (being a highly-skilled but rather small rapid response force) to become a large, low-skilled place to put bored youth for a year.

Likewise, building, plumbing, electrical work etc. is a trade that these days requires a degree of skill and of course a large amount of certificates etc. Not many people would want to live in a house or work in a hospital wired by a mugger or graffiti artist who was doing it as a punishment in a pink suit. By all means offer to *teach* them a trade* as part of their punishment and rehabilitation, but leave plumbing to people who want to be plumbers.

If you're looking for a place for low skilled workers, try hospital cleaners or any other job primarily done by recent immigrants. MRSA, anyone?

* After all, expertise in daylight robbery is a plus in, say, a builder or plumber

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Oh I'm not saying they do.............just that if the govt thinks that the key is for the parents to sit down with the kids at mealtimes they may find that it's a target too far :D

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

You do *not* make someone part of a community or even make them *want* to be part of a community by *excluding* them from it!

What do they expect? For the person excluded to break down and go "oh no, I'm sorry, please let me come back and be part of the community again"? More likely they'll go "well sod you, I don't want to be part of your damn community anyway!" and this will just lead to more problems in future.
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See above.

Err what??? :confused:
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Yes, because that is exactly what it is.

It says "You are different", "You are being made an example of", "You are excluded from *our* society", "You are not one of Us".

As I said above, this is *not* going to make them want to rejoin a group or society or community that treats them in this way, it's going to make them say "screw you, then, I'll go my own way. Oh and I may just try to make *your* society a bit worse out of revenge".

Not a good idea.
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Ah, "everyone who supports human rights is, deep down, actually just a sanctimonious hypocrite who, as soon as they experience the troubles the *rest* (note the exclusion concept again!) of us have suffered will immediately change their tune and join those of us who know the only solution is to string them all up!!!" :rolleyes:

(And putting a winking smiley at the end of your comment *does not* somehow make it acceptable or "just a joke")

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Well now that you have disagreed with most people who have posted, what is your idea for a proper deterrent that would help reduce the amount of youngsters out there that think it's ok to commit crimes, be abusive to people, damage property and generally behave in such a way that ASBOs have to be put in place etc?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I wasn't trying to make it 'acceptable' or a 'joke', I was just making a statement, which I believe we are all entitled to do, even if it doesn't conform to your way of thinking.
Apologies if I have caused offence.
I never said I wanted to 'string anyone up' as you put it, indeed I would be interested to see what your solution would be, as all you have done is picked this thread apart. And as a single parent I have a vested interest - as certain parts of society would blame 'my sort' for the problem in the first place.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Making an example of a few of them might just make any protoscrotes out there stop and think twice before making the rest of our lives a misery.
As for the fully formed scrotes out there, they should be shown that if they **** with society society ***** them back................it's probably the only language that they understand.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

How about:

1) Anyone in the media who deliberately distorts facts about crime rates for a lurid headline should be liable to be pelted in the stocks by professors of journalism using wet sponges
2) Any politician who panders to people's perceptions rather than making policy sensibly on the basis of facts should be held upside-down in a vat of warm marmalade
3) The basic tenets of our judicial system should be taught in schools and made familiar to all. In the interim it should be made a sticky on CF's Current Affairs forum
4) All parties should accept that zero crime is only achievable in a state with zero freedom. If you want freedom, you have to accept a level of crime
5) Inequality creates crime. Therefore all parties should accept that reducing inequality is necessary to reduce crime. If this means moving back from the slavish devotion to 'competition' and 'market forces' then tough.

Any more for any more?
Edit: I forgot one
6) Anyone who holds up the example of the US judicial system as in any way a suitable case study from which we can learn positive lessons should be bound and gagged with suitable equipment from Graham's emporium of the exotic.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I agree with 1, 2 & 3...........as for 4--zero crime isn't possible even in a totalitarian state--but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for zero crime.

5-'inequality creates crime'--that's such a load of bull!--are you a communist? Criminals create crime and a lack of 'proper' upbringing creates criminals. There will always be inequality- deal with it :rolleyes:

6--Just 'cos the US judicial system isn't perfect doesn't mean that we should dismiss it out of hand.......you can draw lessons from everything.


or was that post tongue in cheek? :D

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

How many times do I have to explain that just because I object to something I *DON'T* have to be able to solve the world's problems as the "price" of that objection???

Oh, and, if you actually bothered to *READ* what I'd written, you'd note that it was the *UNIFORMS* that I was objecting to, not the community service.

It *is* possible for many (but not necessarily all) offenders to be rehabilitated by community service and it's better than putting them in prisons where they are only likely to become better (or more prolific) criminals.

However if you *discriminate* against offenders by forcing them to wear clothing that clearly says "criminal" or "excluded", you are doing *nobody* any favours.

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Well I'm sorry, but I did find that offensive because it implies that *I* (being someone who supports human rights, would be so shallow as to change what I thought just because it was *me* who was affected, rather than someone else.

:rolleyes: See above.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

But it would be nice if you could offer some solution if you've criticised everyone's opinion?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Chopping their hands off or putting them up against a wall or just giving them longer jail sentences would also "make an example" of them.

Curiously enough, that's what politicians have been doing by being "tough on crime" etc etc over the past decade or two, yet somehow it doesn't seem to have brought the crime figures down.

Copyright the Daily Mail editorial (although in slightly different words)...
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I've already green repped you in this thread, I can't do it again! :(

KerCHIINNNGG!!! :D

(Although *certain* parts of the US system actually have a more enlightened view, see the links I posted above)
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Damn commies!

Yes, there is certainly an element of lack of "proper" upbringing, but to claim that that is the *only* cause and that inequality doesn't pay a part is simply glib and unhelpful.

Some crimes are committed through greed, others, however, are committed through desperation and that *can* happen where there is massive inequality if people want to survive.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

You wanna gave Chavs and convicted criminals access, to and training in the use of, Explosives?

:D

Only joking, I don't think you actually meant that.
It's ironic that our local council cannot afford to light all the roads in our town (there are two roads from our local station. One is lit and the other has absolutely no lighting apart from a single bulb at one end despite the fact that most of the passengers use it), yet have enough money to maintain hanging baskets on most of the streetlamps.

Actually, back on topic. I personally have no objection to people doing community service being required to wear a uniform. I certainly don't think it would be more humiliating than wearing a uniform for a job.

You appear to have made several assumptions there. First that Chimaera was referring to everyone who supports human rights (she never said that, and I don't think she was), and second, that Chimaera was in the "String 'em up" group that seems to be present on this forum. I have met her on several occasions, and have spent many hours talking to her (on and off line). While we have never discussed it, I am sure she is not in the "string 'em up" brigade

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Why not, what's the percentage of the population with a photographic memory? :shrug:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

The problem is that no matter how thoroughly you search them, if they are determined enough, they will always find a way to hide a reciept or bank statement.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Maybe I've got things ars e about tit, but I always considered prison/community service to be a punishment, (in a retrospective way). "You do the crime, you do the time", not let's treat Johnny nice so he doesn't do it again. If the punishment isn't nice that should be deterrent enough, shouldn't it?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Same old story - someone comes up with a new way to punish offenders - the human rights brigade object - we can't degrade the criminals (shame about the victims). We must be into double figures with these threads by now, all going nowhere. :erm:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

the navy/army/air force - can be a good thing? :)

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I suggest you re-read post #30 and look at Chimaera's comments in the context of a reply to Tiger Sefi's remark.

You have assumed I was including her in that group, but I didn't say that, nor is it implied in context.
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What's the proportion who figure out that they can stuff a few bits of paper into their clothes/ boots/ underwear (or maybe even take photos with a mobile phone) and not get caught?
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Except that increasing sentences or the severity of punishment has time and again been shown *not* to deter crime, nor rehabilitate offenders such that they won't do it again.

And, once again, we see the implication in the phrase "treat Johnny nice" that somehow those who support human rights and dignity would let everybody out of jail or feather-bed them or make prison like a "holiday camp" etc etc.

Until people realise that this is not the case it seems pointless trying to have a sensible discussion on this topic.
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Same old story: someone claims that people who support the human rights don't give a damn about victims (like anyone's *ever* said that), someone asserts that punishing criminals is the only way to make society a better/ safer/ more civilised place (why hasn't it worked so far, then?), the "string them up" brigade just want to make people suffer even more (like that's going to make the world a better place), straw men are set up and knocked down (like that's going to help a reasoned debate...) :rolleyes:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

So .... unless we agree with your view, discussion is pointless ?

Who claimed that then ?

Someone else asserts that not punishing criminals is the only way to make society a better/ safer/ more civilised place - that's working well isn't it :erm:

The "do gooder" brigade just want to slap them on the wrist and say 'please don't do it again' - Like that's going to make the world a better place.

Um, okay. :rolleyes:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I actually do dislike the way that those of us who strongly believe in rights for EVERYONE get stigmatised on this site as being for criminals and against victims.

I'm most definitely not against any one group.

I'm actually against having human rights for all and then not applying them to whatever group the media currently have an issue with. :( What is the point in having any form of human rights under those circumstances?How many innocent people have been arrested and then released?If they had no rights they may well still be in prison.Those who advocate removing rights for criminals need to remember that sometimes mistakes are made by the police and judiciary and that there is a need for checks and balance. :erm:

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

/\ /\ What Coggy said!
Seems to me that any posting on here will get picked apart and slagged off by a certain forum member, think I'll just back off from the forum now and save him the bother.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Graham, when oh when will you stop posting so aggressively? There is simply no need for it, noone else I know on this forum posts so aggressively and I suggest you tone it down, no infact I request you tone down or further action will be taken. A member deciding to step away from the site because of the actions of another, I don't take too kind to.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Excuse me? Who mentioned all that? Not me...

So what? That doesn't prove that my statement is wrong......

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

I did. Where did she say, or imply, all of them would? Based up experience, I would say SOME of them would change their tune. In my experience, no one knows exactly how they would react in any given situation when subjected with violence unless it has happened to them. It's likely that not all members of human rights groups have experience violence against themselves or a family member, so they do not know for sure how they would react.

As I said, it appears that you assumed she meant everyone. While I do believe it is true that SOME people would change their mind, not ALL would..

Why attack her then?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Whatever happened to 'tough on the causes of crime'? Since that statement Youth Service funding has been cut, for example. And social inequality has widened not narrowed.

This Government has got itself stuck into a habit of stupid, kneejerk responses, this being just the latest. Dunno why they don't just let Paul Dacre succeed Blair and be done with it.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

i think the idea in itself is a good one. young offenders, might just get something out of putting back into the community.. but then again they might not.

on the comment about family life.. i think that it does play a big role in people's outlooks on life... socialisation does have an impact on kids, whether we realise it or not. that mainly comes from family life to begin with and later schools come into it (im not getting into a discussion on the state of schools)
kids need proper patterns, believe me it does help them, i'm not saying that if you don't give them patterns then they turn into bullies, thugs etc but it will have an impact on them.

as for what else has occured in this thread, that is the exact reason why i tend to keep away from "current affairs" threads. i am fed up feeling like i have to put a disclaimer on any opinion i post. maybe we all need to put it into our sigs "the opinions i express are just that opinions". when i last checked this forum encouraged freedom of speech, being criticised or "attacked" (as someone previously has put it) is not on. yes we will have differing opinions but in my eyes that is a good thing as it means that we can have a discussion, yes a discussion, no slanging matches or personal attacks. i think it is sad that the attitudes of some are causing people to not want to be involved, and i hope this does not continue.

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

The thing with asking Graham to find a solution is that the problem that you're asking him to find a solution to doesn't actually exist. Hence it's a bit harsh asking him to solve it.

Nyet, tovarich. Glad to lay your mind at rest there. Remember to check under your bed tonight and ring Joe McCarthy if you see anyone you suspect of Bolshevism.

Thank you, Mr. Mackay of Slade Prison. If you read back, I did say that *reducing* inequality should be an aim, it's quite evident that inequality always exists and it's Utopian (and therefore silly) to pretend otherwise.

I should probably have written 'inequality + freedom = crime' since it's perfectly possible to have a society with low crime, great inequality and little freedom (like Singapore). Likewise you can have societies with low crime, relative equality and little freedom (like the USSR). It does seem impossible to pull off the triple (low crime+inequality+freedom), although Japan might be an interesting example (there's a lot of organised crime there, of course).

However, history does tend to show that suddenly increasing inequality and freedom (particularly freedom of movement) in a state does lead to rocketing crime, for which the obvious examples are Russia and (to some extent) South Africa. There is a wealth of literature from both economists and sociologists that investigates crime as it relates to inequality (of many sorts) and to dismiss this as 'bull' is a little simplistic. Go and read some of it.

Having said 'don't take examples from the US judicial system', I'm now going to take examples from the US, but from academic studies, rather than punishments. I hope this distinction is obvious!

http://www.crime.smartlibrary.org/Ne...m?segment=1664

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/301/301lect07.htm
I suggest reading the whole of that second one, actually, it's quite short and packed with interesting stuff. It also quotes both Milton Friedman (right-wing proto-Thatcherite economist) and Karl Marx, so there's a bit of balance for you.

Criminals create crime, but society creates criminals. It's society's problem, and the structure of society (particularly the economic structure) undeniably affects the production of criminals. Two obvious things are reducing unemployment and increasing minimum wages. Those have *direct* effects on reducing inequality and therefore reducing crime rates. However, the jobs have to be good jobs, rewarding and well-paid. Better education helps, too.

http://english.sina.com/china/1/2005/0311/24184.html
Lack of proper upbringing - case study. The father of a close friend was brought up by parents (military ones) who stayed together, sent him to public school, imposed iron discipline, regular corporal punishment for transgressions all in a middle-class (even upper-middle) environment. He ended up with a 13 year sentence for an extremely serious crime (non-violent, however). What caused him to choose (quite deliberately) a criminal profession?

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

it's just words on a screen - if you dont like it then just remember it's only words.

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Re: Breaking Rocks for yobs
 

What has to be considered is that people offend for different reasons and those reasons should be taken into consideration when considering their "punishment".

There are many reasons why people offend. Some do it of their own free will whilst others may be bullied into it.

Some people offend because they do not recognise that what they are doing is wrong whilst others know that it is wrong but still offend because many others do the same and there is little chance of getting found out and punished. Some offend and get caught but the punishment is only a slight inconvenience and there isn't really any social stigma attached to having commited the offence.

Just take two subjects that have been discussed to death in these forums. Breaking speed limits and the downloading / uploading of copyright material. Both of these are offences but many forum members don't regard them as such and continue to breach the law and openly brag about the fact. What signals does this give to the young? Basically the young are being taught that breach of the law doesn't matter if you think the law is not for you or you are likely to get away with the offence.

My view is that any breach of the law should be punished with action that makes the offender think twice about re-offending with any fines levied being really felt by the offender.

All offenders should be analysed to see why they had committed the crime and punishment levied in line with this. No two offenders for the same crime have committed it for the same reason and will respond to the same punishment.

Many years ago I used to work next door to an open prison and was amazed at the standard of living the prisoners had. For many of them they were having a much better standard of living than they had previously had before being committed. Is this a punishment and a deterrent? Quite the opposite I would say.

Tagging and working for the community should be more used with prisons being the dark, dank, bare, stone floored places that nobody would ever want to return to. Give the tagged prisoners a uniform by all means. If they are not willing to abide by the laws of the land then why should they have anonimity.

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I said what needed to be said, come back soon Chimera and perhaps we can have a discussion not a one sided lecture.

I still think giving those who commit lesser crimes although all crime are serious should be given proper training while in prison, because lets face it they are normally unskilled in most areas hence the commiting of crime. They would get traning in building, electrical, gas supply etc, and then would repay the community buy helping repair and rebuild and even build new places, they would be paid a percentage of the wage to there families and a percentage to there bank account upon release. There sentence would not be cut down by doing this form of rehabilitation as they are there to serve time for a crime, but they can at least learn skills and be able to put back into the society what they was taking away.

That myself would be a better use then stocking up prisions with people doing nothing.

Any better ideas rather then just your wrong mad quotes?

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Perhaps criminals should be made to dig trenches along all the roads of Britain and get the areas that currently do not have cable onto the network. :D

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Dunno what went on before - and I don't want to - but I agree with the thrust of what Andrew says in his last post. It's no good just locking people up (and we now have the highest prison population ever) if we are not going to prevent them returning to crime on release. The prison regime needs to punish - and loss of liberty is pretty punitive to my mind - and rehabilitate. If we do not provide opportunities for prisoners to receive useful education and to address their behaviour then all we are doing is continuing a vicious cycle, not least because prison currently provides exemplary courses in Further Criminality.

As for Blears' chain gang style idea, it's bonkers, as I've come to expect from a Govt keen on sticking plaster solutions that look good in the right-leaning Press to which they seem increasingly subservient.

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Couldn't do a worse job than some of the contractors NTL use.... :D


Actually, I don't think anyone here is AGAINST the idea of community service (although I am not sure having a line of prisoners breaking rocks would do any good). Even Graham has pointed out that it does seem to help rehabilitate prisoners (after all, if you ask someone to build something, they are more likely to take care of it when it's finished).

The issue here is whether to give them Uniforms, thus, presumably, marking them as community service personnel. I personally have no objection to this, as I don't see that it makes them stand out any more than a uniform for a job would. Graham, obviously disagrees.

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Well said that man :tu:, although they would be trained and a wage paid to there families who are without there husband boyfriend w/e. or the next depenant.

All this work would be supervised daily hourly by trained staff again taking people of the dole queue for guard duty.

The council tried something here they permitted a race track for kids on those battered trail bikes to use them there with no rules just they aint responsible.

Amazing crime dropped and also kids had a new interest, building bikes, yes we still have crime but it worked oh and get this.

The track was built with juvenille shoplifters etc while doing time for there crimes.

;)

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So do I. What purpose would these uniforms serve? Blears says so penance can be seen to be paid. Sounds like she would like to bring back stocks. Identify people in such uniforms and they may find it harder to secure employment in the area and get on with their lives. They will also no doubt be abused by people who will have no idea what their crime has been (and here it could be something like tram-fare dodging which escalates to non-payment of fines, to breaking rocks down Cheetham Hill Road. So you're too poor to pay the tram, too poor to pay the subsequent fine and then are subject to abuse from bus loads of schoolkids and Daily Mail readers (just threw that in to annoy the usual suspects! ;) ) as they do their Community Service.

Labour needs to be addressing the wider issues instead of dreaming up such retrograde ideas.

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Excellent post there m8! :tu: :) You can flippantly laugh but I have had family members hauled off for execution by communists and both of my parents lost their homes to communism.


We haven't had a sudden introduction of inequality here in the UK and as for using the USSR and RSA as examples--the problem there was that both of those countries had opressive govts(and more importantly, security services) removed overnight which has predictably resulted in the crime rates going up-less to do with inequality and more to do with a lack of proper policingBetter education needed-absolutely agree :tu: Good jobs however cannot be magicked up (especially without also increasing the wealth of those who are dolling out the jobs-bit of a vicious circle really :D
Personally, I don't think that he got a proper upbringing (for several reasons)
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Then you shouldn't be on the tram in the first place :rolleyes:

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Shouldn't be too poor to use the tram. Tough on the causes of crime!!

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Thats not any kind of answer............
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Anyway, which is it that causes crime? Poverty or inequality? Because if we were all equally poor there would still be plenty of people turning to crime.........

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Many more reasons than that.

Some are bullied into crime.

Some like the challenge of seeing if they can get away with it.

Some because they think the law is wrong.

Some because it is less stressful being inside than having the stress of everyday life.

The list goes on but only one thing is certain. There will always be crime.

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True, you would get the locals coming out to wind up the people doing community service, but I don't think anyone is asking for the uniforms to be worn for a long time. Only while performing the actual community service.

Also true. However such schemes may cost a lot of money and take a while to implement, so, while they may be excellent ideas, our publicity-hungry government is not going to be interested. After all, getting uniforms makes them appear to be doing something now, and getting "results" in a few months. Other ideas (such as changing education in schools, and National Service -not that I am suggesting either) may well work, but we wouldn't start seeing any impact for several years.

Call me cynical if you want, but I get the distinct impression that our government don't want to wait years for a fix. They want something cheap that gets them publicity now. Let a future government deal with the problems.. Note, I am not specifically having a go at Blair here (although I don't like him and did not vote Labour), as I believe it's something all politicians suffer from (after all, they're only in office five years, why spend billions on a scheme that will take longer than that and have some future government take the credit when they get results?)

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Oh ye GODS Paul M, will you *PLEASE* actually take the time and effort to *READ* what I am writing! This sort of thing is *precisely* what I am talking about!!

What I *actually* said was

I am objecting to people *misrepresenting* the viewpoint and beliefs of myself and others who support human rights by claiming that the above is what we would do.

You, however, have chosen to mis-read or mis-represent this as "if you don't agree with my POV there's no point in discussing it, which is *NOT* what I have said, nor would *ever* say!!

You did: I quote your exact words...

Now if you your comment "we can't degrade the criminals (shame about the victims)" does not imply that those who support human rights only care about the rights of the criminals and not the victims, please tell me what it *does* mean, because I can't see another way of interpreting it.

Now you're getting desperate and, once again, you set up a straw man argument that is nothing to do with what *I* have said.

As I have said in previous threads, I am in favour of *rehabilitating* the criminals, not simply making them suffer. One has a much better chance of making society a better place, the other is more likely to make "better" criminals.

Whoops, there goes another straw man...! :rolleyes:

See above.
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Damn right!

It is regrettable that we still see people who seem to think that "rights" should only apply to those whom *they* like/ approve of/ think are "nice people", but anyone else who is "****" doesn't deserve the same rights.

There are plenty of warnings from history of what happens when one group starts treating another as "not human"... :(

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It's my kind of answer thank you very much :) My partner works with disadvantaged young people, a number of whom have been done for fare-dodging. They have pitiful incomes and cannot afford the tram (which is expensive) and yet still need to travel. So they bunk it, get caught, get fined. That's fantastically illogical. They can't afford the fare, so you fine them even more.

And people do get jailed for non-payment of fines, which ends up costing everybody more and achieves nothing.

Anyway, which is it that causes crime? Poverty or inequality? Because if we were all equally poor there would still be plenty of people turning to crime.........[/QUOTE] There is no causal relationship between either poverty or inequality, but there is a strong correlation. Poverty is a relative thing but I personally find it fairly depressing that we live in a country where single people can earn millions in one year (Adam Crozier just got £3m in bonuses for his graft at the Post Office) and yet we have people living in squalid, damp houses with little in the way of life opportunities. Whilst society is willing to countenance such desparate conditions in what is, after all, a very rich country, then it will get the citizens it deserves.

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Chimaera:

1) If you referring to me, which I presume you are, please have the politeness to use my name, rather than simply insinuating.

2) I suggest you read the part of my post above where I *AGREE* 100% with what Incognitas said.

3) I do not "slag off" posts and I take exception to the implication that I do. As to "picking apart" posts, if a post is well written and coherent and doesn't contain holes, then I would not be *able* to "pick it apart" (or kick big holes in it).
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Mick, if you, as a moderator wish to discuss my posting style, I suggest that it would be a better idea to do it via a PM rather than openly criticising me in a public thread.

As to a member choosing to step away from the site, that is their choice, however as you may note from my post above, it seems that they (presuming you mean Chimaera) have completely misunderstood me since I have just agreed with Incognitas' commentas as has Chimaera.

If you wish to discuss this further, please contact me via PM.
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It was extrapolating your "make an example" suggestion to its (illogical IMO) extreme.

No, but it doesn't help your argument either.

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Ok then Graham - YOU were picking holes in my posts and in my opinion, taking it completely the wrong way. I apologised for offending you, if that's what I have done. I shall now refrain from posting on this forum, then that is one less person who will offend you by daring to have a different viewpoint to yours.

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"I am sure their opinions would differ slightly". Not "some of", not "a few", just a generalisation referring to the human rights groups that Tiger Sefi mentions.

I'm sure "some" might. But that doesn't mean generalising about them *all* is justififed.

I don't doubt that. I don't deny that. The test of a person's principles is what they do when they *are* tested. But implying through generalisation that they all would is a mistake.

<Sigh> Once again I do not, have not and *WILL NOT* "attack" a *PERSON* in a thread!!!

The "attack" was directed to the *point* not the *person*.

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This thread is now closed.

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So its okay for you to openly criticise others, pick holes in their posts and make them feel like idiots, which is exactly how you make them feel? But when its my turn, I have to do it via PM and have it all nicely hidden? I don't think so. Let's have it right please.