Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well - I wouldn't have thought a country that can be as backward and awkward as Spain would've been one of the first countries to legalise this ....especially with being so Catholic 'n all......

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

....That's scary :erm:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

What is, legalising gay marriages, or that Spain have come round to the idea?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Why? :confused:

I see nothing wrong with it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Nothing wrong with it at all ..... however, how long will it be until the rest of the world catch up ...

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

The idea of it. No offence to any one though :(

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Doesn't surprise me. I guess it's only a matter of time before it kicks off here too....:rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Wouldn't bother me if they did or didn't to be honest.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

WOW:D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Good! Well done Spain

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Good on em, there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I support same sex marriages... :tu: ..but only for females! :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

My sentiments exactly.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

It is refreshing to see such a religious country finally showing a little less sanctimony and a liitle more tolerance. :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I suppose that's *one* viewpoint.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You do not agree?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I wouldn't call it 'refreshing'.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Of course he doesn't!

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Too right! I mean, why else would you have posted this thread? :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Hate to break it to you Russ, but my world doesn't actually evolve around ****ing you off. :)

It think it's fantastic news. Progressive. Equal. Indiscriminate. :tu:

And tbh, I'm shocked most of all that it's Spain that's allowed it! :eek:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Clam people .... calm .... think nice thoughts

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

What, not even some of the time? :disturbd:

But of course you would.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Why dont you agree? :confused:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I agree with you OB. Good for the Spanish..

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Because he's very Christian and believes that homosexuality is literally the devils spawn (or something like that). Of course, religion is all forgiving and tolerant - as long as you agree with what the bible says. :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Because I don't want my children growing up thinking that same-sex couples having children is natural. People will bleat on about "as long as they love the child then it doesn't matter" but then again they are usually incredibly naive or have no children of their own as being a parent is about far more than that.
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And you will stop assuming what I think, seeing as you've made a bit of a mistake there. Love the pressumtions, btw.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Oh, well, if it's not because of your faith that you don't agree, why is it?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

OK, back to your corners please ....... this is *NOT* a religious argument thread ....

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Here's a new one for OB - why not actually read my posts? You'll find out then, rather than my repeating myself.

Any chance of an apology for the false assumption?
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Too right it's not.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No, you're right - it's about the new law in spain allowing gay marriage. Some one asked Russ why he doesn't agree...?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Good, now we have that established, back on topic please ...

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

And you decided to answer for me! That'll teach you eh? :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Oh, ok. So you don't agree with the children bit, but you're happy with the gay marriage bit?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I SAID BREAK IT UP

Stop goading each other .... and leave it .... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So you eat your meat raw and sleep in a cave or up a tree...?

Being a parent means (or, at least should mean!) bringing up a child in a safe and nurturing environment and teaching them what they need to know to get on in the world.

Nowhere does it say "one man, one woman", especially since that format is relatively new in human history as many children have grown up in extended families or tribal societies over the past few million years.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I see a perfectly valid non religous reason in Russ's post, one I agree with and imo is almost worthy of a rep
In fact same sex marriages is really not equal at all its very one sided

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That was posted in jest, surely... :erm:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Theres a lot more in the differences between a man and a woman than purely body parts, ie different hormones and mentalities. A child stuck in a same sex maraige is not going to get the benefit of experiencing both outlooks on life etc.

Lets say a pair of ladies adopt a boy, He will benefit from having 2 mums in exactly what way, that would be better than having a mother and a father ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Are you saying all women behave alike then?! :rofl:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No but I know that to produce children you need a man and a woman.


But as your first point alludes to, times have changed. It is difficult enough being a parent and wondering how to explain a great many things in the world to your child without this sort of thing. I certainly don't agree with it but sadly for those who want to try and paint me as being an intolerant bigot, I won't be telling my daughter it's "evil" or any of that claptrap.


Hang on.....was that a dig at me living in Wales?????? :spin:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

TBH, that arguement could be applied to single parents as well.

I personally think that *if* the people involved are good parents and they love their child(ren), it doesn't matter what gender they are, or whether they are single or in a couple.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

That little boy would fare no worse than another child that only has a mother and no father to speak of. And if that's so terrible and disfucntional for the child in the single parent family, do you suggest we make that illegal too?

Male influences come from a lot more than just a father - grandparents, friends, teachers etc.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:shrug:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

With the greatest of respect Nem, that's exactly what it is. OB the OP didn't just launch a thread about gay marriage being legalised in Spain, she launched a thread with the question 'wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!' That is explicitly inviting religious opinion on the matter. :angel:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well to compare this law to something like single parent families which has resulted from some serious misfortune, ie a catostrophic breakdown in a relationship or even worse death, which you can only agree the end result is far from a perfect situation, really makes the comparison itself invalid, but also validates to some extent the anti sentiments of same sex maraiges with child adoptions

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You could. And there is a growing body of evidence to support the argument that children brought up in a single-parent environment are disadvantaged when compared to those who have a mother and a father at home.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Now that I think about it, This is wrong. I have no problems with gay people or letting them getting them get legally recognized as a couple. But marriage thats different. Isn't that a religious term? Defining it as between a man and a woman? Correct me if i am wrong :angel:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So what do you do, make it illegal for those in bad marriages to split up? Make abortion compulsory for women who fall pregnant that are not in a steady relationship? No - because a lot of this is not through concious choice. Ant neither is homosexuality IMO.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Marriage is a religious or a civil ceremony. Dependin entirely on what you do or don't believe.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Then screw it, I am staying outta this one :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Clearly you don't make any of those things illegal. But, armed with the knowledge that children who grow up without both a male and a female resident role model are relatively disadvantaged, neither should you seek to deliberately place children in those situations, surely? This has nothing to do with whether or not homosexuality is a choice, and to be honest it's not about what a homosexual couple might want either, it's about what is best for the children.

Except of course that this is a little OT as you were asking what the Pope would think about legalisation of gay marriage, not the pro and cons of gay adoption.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Excellent! Sensible posting from the other side at last!

I'm quite old-fashioned when it comes to marriage - my opinion is that it should be between a man and a woman. If a gay couple want to be in a committed monogomous relationship then that's none of my concern - just please, don't call it marriage. A partnership, civil union or whatever - just not marriage.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

either way afaik in mans history same sex marraige has never been a legally recognised or binding union.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:rofl:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

A couple of points I didn't make earlier.

Firstly, a marriage is a purely religious thing, which as most religions prohibit gay relations, I can't see how any gay marriage can ever be legal in the eyes of God. What we know to be marriage, like signing the license, the tax benefits, and spousal rights, is a purely civil aspect we humans created away from marriage, but happen to allocate at the same time. It is, and should be, sexuality independent.

With regards to the adopting children:

Bit different with the adopting children. There's nothing wrong with gay people adopting children, but there is often a lack of gender balance, with 2 males, 2 females, as in the traditional family set, mothers and fathers have unique opposite, but complimentry roles. It's exactly the same with a single mother adopting, I think. People really do need positive role models on both sides.

I don't think gays and single mothers/fathers should be excluded from adopting, but I think there needs to be an extra check on that to make sure adopters are aware of the lack of gender balance and can allow for it. For example, in the case of 2 gay men, to have a strong maternal influence in there, such as one of the parent's sisters, or a brother of the single mother. If the gay people are both only children, then I still think they should be able to adopt (single mothers and fathers bring kids up alright), but I think they should be taught how to emulate the two traditional parental positions.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I take it that smilie was aimed at me. :dozey:

It was that or I got banned with some comment about you thinking your religous beliefs should influence the lives of millions of gay people in this country. To be fair the smilie just summed the comments up and avoided a confruntation with Simon via PM. :)

*goes off to take yet another deap breath

:rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Yes it was

a) I have not mentioned religion.

b) I am not saying my views are how the world should be. I'm not trying to change any law or influence anyone. I'm just giving "my views".

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Sorry Punky, but that is nonsense. I'm getting married and I am a staunch Atheist. Marriage is a civil as well as religious affair, and as far as I'm concerned they have little to do with each other. I certainly will not be going through a religious marriage.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

:notopic:
But how would you feel when she is older if she came home and announced to you she was gay? Do you think she would even be able to tell you? knowing your views?
:notopic:

Well Russ, in my eyes that is one of the most evil and backward things one can do with thier lives :p: :LOL: :Peaceman: :jk:

I agree but Im thinking for the threads sake maybe we should keep the two at a safe distance? You know how long, aggressive and off topic these threads tend to get :) We will be talking about evolution and the existance of mythical invisable unicorns in no time :D

I was thinking that myself.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

At the end of the day the only reason being gay was made legal in the first place was because of blackmail offences.
What do we legalise next because of blackmails or even "out of court settlements"

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

A rose by any other name.

So following on from that, we go back to those women that have children because they want a council flat or just plain want a child and can't look after them. Would you advocate compulsory abortion like OB mentioned to "save" the children from a life of neglect?


My own personal view on the subjects raised are that itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s great Spain have legalized Gay marriage and I think the political parties here should get on with sorting it out. As for adoption it's not something that would affect me as we wouldn't want children. Saying that, I think it's shocking that many religious people (not all by a long shot but many) think it's acceptable to influence others lives because of their own convictions.

If we're still permitted to mention religion, I think it's a fraud, but I do uphold others right to believe what they like so long as it doesn't influence my life in ANY way.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

If I was anti-gay and sickened by the thought if it etc then she may find it difficult to tell me. However by the time she's at the age where she can honestly say she knows her own sexuality, she'll know me better than that.
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Plus the rose would not be planted in a church? Check your PMs btw.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Never a man of my word, I will now re-enter the topic (for now):

I just want to clear something up

Gay Marriage- I have no problem with gay couples, I have no problem with that. What I possibly reject to is the term 'Marriage'. This is because it is seen by religious followers as a union between a man and a woman. A government cannot make laws regarding to religion. Church and state, they MUST be kept separate. Spain should not decide that gay couples can get 'married', only the church should do that as marriage is a religious term. What the state can and should do is allow civil unions. That has all the same laws and advantages of marriage only without that term, that respects the rights of gay couples without telling the church what to do on religious issues. Leave marriage to the church.

Gay adoption - I do not have any idea on this. They should be allowed to have the rights of a normal couple, on the other hand I do not know the other side. I do not know the affect on the child, i do not know what that child will think when he/she grows up. This is a very complex issue that none of us can really understand until more studies are taken. There is a rights issue, but then there are the rights of the child and the effect on that child.

These two things are different, the union between gay couples is between two consenting adults so there isnt a problem there (expect with the term) but the adoption brings a 3rd non-consenting child into the equation. So thats where it gets complex

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Where is marriage defined as a religious term ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

The bible - therefore if christianity is not your inspiration then it doesn't matter.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

It is the name that causes the problem! If we get rid of the word marriage this whole thing would be sidestepped. The simple word 'marriage' is what brings religion into this.

Same goes the other way, The church doesn't influence us as a state and we as a state do not influence the church. Church and state, keep them separate. Its the best way to avoid ill-feeling and anger

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

But the term marriage far predates christianity, so just because the bible uses this term it doesnt mean they have copyright over it :)

Allthough technically the term marriage doesnt even appear in the bible (appart from translations) as I dont think marriage was a word in the language of the original writers.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I think you misread me. I never said they were one-and-the-same, I was actually trying say what you were, (badly, apparently), that the religious side and civil side were created independent, and should be kept away from each other. Of course, and when athiests get married they do it in a registry office, with a civil servant. That is a modern alternative to the tradition of marriage. We call it marriage, but this isn't what marriage was concieved as hundreds, or rather thousands of years ago.

You don't have to go to church, perform the declaration under God, and swap the bahns. That's been what marriage was long before marriage certificates, registry offices, and tax breaks became a part of the marriage. Everyone goes through the civil part of the marriage, which is the signing the license. Anything else is optional.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Hence I said, if it's not your inspiration....etc :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Daniel, go and get a history lesson... Who heads the state? The Queen. How do you think, for so many centuries, heads of States (kings, queens etc) made decisions about how the country was run? Religion!!!!!! :rolleyes:

So, what do you do. Give a child to a family that want's it, or leave it in a temporary unstable home until the law thinks the 'right' kind of couple comes along?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well that has to be a rhetorical question. I think (I hope) you're indulging in a little reduction to absurd-but-logical conclusion here, because I know you wouldn't advocate such compulsory abortion and I think I know that you don't think I would advocate it ... :spin: ... however, I don't think your reduction is valid because my starting point is the rights of and the protection of the child, and I think abortion is a fundamental abuse of the rights of the child. 'Nuff said about abortion though, that's another thread all by itself.

I completely respect your right to have a view, and to live your life according to that view. However on the matter of religious people influencing the lives of others, well I'm afraid it comes with the territory. Christianity is an evangelistic religion. It makes claims to absolute truth, i.e. the universe is a certain way, and this requires a certain response from everyone who lives in it, and it places on believers the obligation to share that truth with the whole world. If I could indulge in a little logical reduction myself, if it weren't for Christians trying to influence the lives of others, we would still have a slave trade and children would still be going out to work at the age of five instead of going to school. ;)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

i think the world has far greater things to worry about than a couple of chaps getting married

good for them

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

So do you think that Daniels marriage will be a fraud also? Civil unions for "conventional" couples have been legal for many years where's the religious element in that?

So my understanding is that you don't want the word used, and they can't have a religious ceremony. I can't see the logic myself, like I said a words a word. Also it's worth pointing out that many same sex couples already have their commitment blessed in a religious ceremony. :shrug:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Hope you're wearing your flack helmet Chris......:D
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As I've said, I'm quite old-fashioned when it comes to what I think marriage is. Since I've been part of this forum I'm unaware of any instance where I've asked or told someone to agree with any of my beliefs, so people are welcome to view marriage in any way they see fit IMO.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

No, I dont. I am just saying that if religion, which i believed had the term marriage, said it was between a man and a woman then let it be so and call the marriage a civil union. Then everyones happy. Gay rights are a joke and we need to advance them, so if the term civil union helps that process then by all means use it.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

And what about the rights of a child up for adoption who needs a loving home....I suppose the child is only entitled to that right as long as it's a man-woman family it goes into?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

What i think he is saying is that the effect on the child is the first priority and we do not know what the effects are. :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well, if you don't know what the effects are, how can you say they'll be worse off with a same sex parent family?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I cant, but i cant say either way. Which is why we need to be careful

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Your question is based on the assumption that all a child needs is a loving home. I have no doubt that a same-sex couple could provide love for their adopted child, what they cannot provide is the full range of adult role models a child needs. We have already covered this point: studies show that children are relatively disadvantaged where they do not have both their male and female parents living at home with them.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Well we allready know single parent families are not the perfect situation but they happen, the potential of a same sex couple adopting being considerably one sided will surely exist, even worse the child could be put into an enviroment where theres a form of detremental resentmant to the opposite sex. Not in all cases but in some its bound to happen.

Still they are only children and we really need to use them akin to laborotory guinea pigs so we can discover in a decade or 2 that its good or bad thing ?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Isn't that why children are usually up for aoption - because the birth parents are otherwise incapable of doing so... :erm:

Disadvantaged in what way? Academically? Socially? Financially?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Yes it was rhetorical and I was trying to point out how spurious extrapolations can be. Of course I know you wouldn't agree with the point. :)

So you honestly believe that gives people with a religious conviction the right to influence the lives of those who donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t. Does that give OB the right to force you to get rid of your TV because she believes it is evil? No, it doesn't, she has a right to believe that but not to force that belief on others.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Do you know any gay people? Sorry, but your 'detremental resentment' theory would be laughable if it weren't so ignorant. Gay people are NOT gay because they resent the opposite sex! They just don't feel emotionally/physically/mentally attracted to the opposite sex. How naive you are.

Slightly cleverer than you previous post I suppose, seeing as facetiousness does take a little sarcastic wit , but not a lot.....

Peter Sutcliffe had a mum and dad. Look how great he turned out. :rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You ought to hear some of the lesbians where I work :eek:


Absolutely but she feels quite welcome to give her anti-christianity/religion views. By the same token does that entitle me to preach on CF? Regardless, I won't: it's not the way I work.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Please enlighten us all on how a gay couple with an adopted child could prepare that child for a hetrosexual adult life, just the mere fact that the child is in a gay family enviroment is without any doubt imo going to influence that childs mind.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Please enlighten me how a single mother could prepare that child for a hetrosexual adult life .... blah blah blah

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Again the single parent argument is totally invalid. I really fail to see any similarity between a single parent and 2 parents of the same sex.

In a single parent family enviroment the child is not going to witness on a daily basis in the home non hetrosexuality activities.

Also many single parents do not stay single for there entire life and quite often will develop a more stable hetro relationship where the child regains a role model of each sex

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You just snippetty-snipped two examples I gave of how Christians lobbied and pushed for changes to society - an end to slavery and universal education. I believe that in a democracy, every person has a right to try to influence the society they live in. That includes religious people who have a religious take on how their society should operate. The counterbalance to that is that in a democracy you have to get majority agreement before you can change something.

So yes, I believe I have the right, through the ballot box and through direct lobbying of those with the power to effect change, to attempt to influence society in the direction I wish to see it move. Of course, you also have that right. It is not something that is the special preserve of 'religious people'.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Now you just KNOW someone is going to ask you to define those :eek: :D

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

I'm a little lost-how did this become an gay adoption thread? :confused:

I think the simplest way to sort this out is to have marriage for religious reasons and a civil union to allow gay people to have all the same civil rights as hetrosexual civil unions.

I know this doesn't help those who are gay and Christian but it does address some of the legal problems. ;)

Then the church needn't get it's knickers in a twist... :)

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Do you seriously think that you can brainwash a person into being gay or growing into a gaylifestyle, like monkey see monkey do? Dude - wtf are you on???????? :eek: :dunce:
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Wakey wakey - did you not read the link?

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

oh so now your saying no parent is a role model, and family living and its enviroment never has any influence on any child.

/me wonders who needs to wake up

as for your earlier insult of calling me ignorant, i put it that you must be as naive as can be. In todays society its practically impossible to not have known any gays whatso ever, so the answer is yes I do know some, yes some have resentment to the oposite sex.

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

You really know how to get people on your side OB don't you-there was really no need for the attitude.I thought you and I had got beyond that... :rolleyes:

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Re: Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!
 

Of course a parent is a role model - a role model (hopefully) to be a good and decent person. Not to influence your choice on which gender you want to get it together with... You can't 'make' someone gay just because you are, and you spend a lot of time with them:erm:

I have a resentment towards some men. However, I'm straight and I wouldn't think that would encourage any children I may have to make a choice baout their sexuality. :shrug: