Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Right, as promised, here is the continuation of the Vote 2005 thread. It has a new poll so we can track changing opinion during the election campaign. The scores achieved by each poll option during weeks 1 and 2 are bracketed within the options available this week.

Please feel free to continue discussing any issues raised during week 2 by copying and pasting. The week 2 thread is closed but you can still read it here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...566#post452566

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Intrestingly the results are quite similer to all the polls in that labour has been increasing, and tory staying the same.

I belive that the torys continuing talk about immigration isnt winning any new votes, everyone knows about it now so they have made up there mind of this issue

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

The polls indeed show the Tories are not getting the breakthrough they will need. Interestingly the Tory score in the various polls tracked by the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2...ml/default.stm

.... is pretty much consistent with our own polling here. Labour, however, is doing far worse in our polls. To an extent this depends of course on how the question is framed and what options are available, we have 'Not voting' and 'undecided' in our poll.

Our own results so far are most like those from YouGov, which I guess makes sense because YouGov is an internet-based poll. A few days ago we were discussing the merits of internet polling due to its potentially skewed sample, but on Today this morning someone was saying that a large-scale internet poll is actually more likely to be accurate than the traditional polls conducted by the likes of MORI and ICM. Certainly when you examine the stats on that BBC site you find the YouGov sample size is twice that of any of the others, while margin of error is just 2% compared to 3% for all the others.

If that's the case, the race is a little closer than Labour would like to think.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

What about voting by proxy?
__________________

Does anybody know how one could take part in the YouGov poll - do you have to be invited?

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Looks like you sign up with YouGov:

http://www.yougov.com/yougov_website...asp?wID=0&uID=

Presumably they weight the results of each poll they conduct to ensure it reflects the composition of the electorate. They are claiming to have called recent elections correctly to within 1% of the actual result.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Thanks Chris :tu:
I would rep you but you have already been too helpful so it will not let me ;)

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Repped for you matey :tu:

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

It looks as if Mr. Howard has blown this one, last night's ITV programme has embarrassed him.

Also fascinating that Rupert Murdoch is now being critical of Tory policy on immigration.

The Guardian

It is extremely nasty as the Tories do, to infer there is uncontrolled immigration when the evidence is that the immigration service is in fact controlling immigration.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Labour usually have a more 'lazy' vote. In other words I would expect tory voters to be more determined hence why internet polls may have a bigger rate for the torys. Because they are actively looking for them?\

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

If that were the case, YouGov would not be able to boast an accuracy rate of as little as 1% off the actual result. Based on what I have read and heard over the last couple of days, I am definitely tending to think of YouGov as the most accurate poll.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

How on earth do you justify that? With the amount of criticism that Labour have received recently, even 'lazy' voters wouldn't necessarily just plump for the status quo.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I mean that in this election (and the last one) labour are seen as favorites. Hence they may not have such a die-hard suppport. The Tories are chasing the vote and theres more of a feeling amongst torys that every vote will count etc.

In other words labour supporters think they will win, while torys think they may win if they work at it
__________________

I think when sky news do a 'poll of polls' where the average ALL the polls out may be the best one.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

TBH, I think you'll find that even a lot of Torys don't think that they'll win it, and are seeing this election as damage limitation.

I'm not stating this as fact though, it's just my opinion, taking into account the fact that Labour still have a massive majority.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Based on the YouGov poll labour would have a majority of 104. It would require a futher 3% swing from the yougov poll to get a hung parlament.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Have you played around with the 'fine tune' option on the Beeb site?

http://news3.thdo.bbc.co.uk/nol/shar...CULATE+RESULTS

I input the YouGov poll results, then adjusted results in marginal constituencies a little to simulate tactical voting against Labour (with Labour pretty much guaranteed to lose seats this time there seemed little point in adjusting any tactical voting in Labour's favour). I was quite surprised to find Labour's majority reduced to just 44!

Go and put your own figures in it, it's fun. :)

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Thats what I used to get my 104 majority claim :D Although I didnt adjust seats.
__________________

Who did you adjust? Which party gained from tatical voting from labour?

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

For Lab/Con marginals I adjusted Con +3 and Lab -3. For Con/Lib it was Con +5, Lib -5 (because at the last two elections the Lib Dems have atracted a lot of disaffected Tory votes, and I don't think they'll last), and for Lab/Lib marginals I adjusted Lib +5, Lab -5. All other boxes were zero.

The total number of seats gained and lost in my scenario is shown in the results page in my link.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I live in a Labour very very safe seat so my Vote for Conservative or any other party would be wasted. The closest would be one for the Lib Dems which would be a tactical vote to knock Labour out but even then it would take every voter from all other parties to swing behind Lib Dem in order to come anywhere near getting Labour out.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Here's something to really bake your noodle - if you simply reverse the Labour and Tory standing in the polls (leaving Lib Dem and Other as they stand), you get a hung parliament:

http://news3.thdo.bbc.co.uk/nol/shar...CULATE+RESULTS

This is because recent boundary changes bias the result in Labour's favour, according to something I read somewhere on that BBC site. Apparently Labour were rather better at lobbying the Boundaries Commission than were the Tories when these things were being established a few years back.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Massive majorities can be overturned but only if worked upon. Apathy and to some extent tactical voting can delay or make impossible any change.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Thats a lot of presumptions :D 7% away from labour in marignals on top of the 5% already done on the yougov poll. Thats 13% swing away from labour in those seats. Labour may be unpopular at the moment but its no where near that type of swing

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Well, these things are always, as Peter Snow says, a bit of fun. But don't forget we're talking about marginals only - these are localised adjustments. The big problem with national opinion polls is that they don't allow for the fact that different constituencies have different loyalties and a greater or lesser number of swing voters.

Remember at the 1992 election, for example (not that you would, sorry) the opinion polls got it massively wrong, and a predicted Labour victory - based on a swing of up to 10% indicated by the polls - actually turned out to be a Conservative majority of, IIRC, about 7, after the swing turned out to be less than 5%.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

The more I see the less interest I have in the whole process.

I don't want to vote for any of them but feel I should. All I know is I definately will not be voting for the Tories as I watched Oliver Letwin give a news conference and felt an overwhelming urge to throw something heavy through the TV.

Lib Dems might be best as they haven't a hope of getting voting in at my seat so it would be pretty much a protest vote (unless a few thousand other people have the same idea :shocked: )

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I heard about that. But the same could be applied in the reverse. In that election the swing away from the goverment was over predicted, the same could be said here. On election day isnt there an average rate for 2 to 1 swing voters going for the current goverment?
__________________

Cant you look at your local results from the last election? Then you can decide who best to vote for based on your area. Tactial voting. Theres a 20% Majority for the tory candidate here, its one of the safest seats in the country, and to top it off labour where the nearest party so the swing from labour to lib dem wont help at all. I might vote labour although i know it wont matter

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Hmmm, so safe for the tories so half of them don't bother to vote as it won't make a difference. Ooops, how did we lose that seat? The only true safe seats are the ones where all the voters get off their backsides to make sure that it really is safe.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

As I have previously said, I used to live in a safe Conservative seat (had the oldest MP). In 1997 it was taken by Labour. The Consewrvatives took it back in 2001 but only with a narrow majority. It is now defined as a marginal seat so things can change over time.

I have sinced moved away to another safe Conservative seat! ;)

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Whats so funny about British elections and polotics is its based on one principal alone.

"You can fool most of the people most of the time"

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Considering Labour are supposed to be above all this supposed "fear-electioneering" they are doing a very good impression.

Seen the latest one about the NHS? With Prunella Scales in it? Its the usual class-war rubbish you'd expect from Labour. Anyway, the final screen said "Keep the NHS free", which is blantantly misleading. Its inferring that, it won't be under Tories. That's complete rubbish. The NHS would be as free under the Tories as Labour. The Tories want to fill up as many empty private beds as possible which means queues for the NHS get shorter, and people get seen quicker. The actually price would be the same, i.e. Free. Well, under Labour, the NHS would probably be more expensive, with ever-more bloated NI contributions.

I can't afford to go private, even with half-subsided fees from the NHS (money I paid in for the NHS to treat me), but I am no fool. If the people that can afford to go private, do, then the people at the back of the NHS queue, like me.. Are we going to stay at the back? No, we are going to move forward quicker. Rather than have 1 very long NHS queue, and 1 virtually non-existant private one, you'll get 1 much shorter queue for the NHS and 1 longer for private but much more equal

Aside from that, don't Labour have an obligation to treat as many people as possible, rather than just let people die waiting that could be saved if they get the treatment quicker private?

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I could point out 2 houses in an area north of Heathrow that have more than a dozen people who should not be living and working in the UK, living in them and working in heathrow hotels. They are people who have come into the country on tourist or short-term student visas from eastern europe and have not gone home. Instead, they have chosen to stay, live here illegally and work, because they can't get in any other way and the money here is just too good to pass up. How do I know this, because I used to go out with a foreign student who knew someone who lived in one of them. She also had a friend who actively recruited foreign students from colleges in London to work through a temp agency in very well known west end shops. Do you call this controlled immigration? I certainly don't.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Doesnt that create a two teir system? Theres the option to be treated free, or pay extra and get nice private treatment. Its sounds ok because you pay your taxs and then get treated away from the NHS. Although most people cannot afford to go private full stop. This will not bring people who do not go private now to go private. It will simply make those who go private now pay less by taking the money out of the NHS.

Private treatment is very expensive and even with this voucher system it is massively expensive.The idea that loads upon loads of people will go private after this cannot be backed up. Its will come down to £1 Billion pounds taken from the NHS to help pay for peoples private operations without a big dent in waiting times

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Yeah and that's the point. Two produce two smallish queues, rather than just one big one.

Getting thousands of pounds towards private treatment will make treatment affordable to much more. What doesn't make it affordable is paying twice, in NI contributions and in full private fees. You make a fair point in that richer people can theoretically get off the private treatment they'd get anyway. Well, why not? They paid for it. An improvement on the idea would be to means-test the contribution, which I think the Tories did mention at one point but appear to have dropped. Means testing is fair enough (for me anyway)

That's what Labour is worried about, that the NHS can't afford to foot a massive immeadiate bill, that has to be settled in weeks, rather than years for thousands to suddenly jump out of the middle of one queue onto another, exposing how woefully under funded its legacy is. They mask it with this class war stuff. Tories say they can fund it through greater efficiency in the NHS, which few people disagree with.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

A lot of people do disagree with the the Tories plans for the NHS and even more question the magical saving they claim to make by cutting 'waste' (ie. more efficient).

What I am saying is this: For Mr Joe who cannot (like most people) afford private care, even with this NHS sceme (which will require more staff to run and implemet the system) all is happening is that £1 billion is leaving the health system. Now you say its fair that people who go private get some of there money back. I agree. However i do not think the effect on waiting times will justify the 1 Billion taken out of the NHS. Thats a lot of money, when most people wont want to pay the extra money to go private. Your suggestion that it will be two queues is (IMO) wrong. Those who go private will have the OP right away, but not many wwill go private meaning that the NHS queue will only be marginally smaller at the expense of 1 billions pounds. Finally what effect will that money being removed from the NHS have? You cannot save £1 Billion pounds though waste. Something will have to go

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Only in Britain could the idea of someone getting something better be held up as an intrinsically bad thing.

What, pray tell, is wrong with a two-tier system? If the end result is that everybody's waiting time is reduced, what harm has been done?

Sorry, but whether you realise this or not, the root of your argument is good old fashioned envy politics, pure and simple.

Tell you what, rather than do the Labour spin, let's look at it another way. Let's consider that those with the financial means to go private are doing a public service by spending their own money doing so, even though they are quite entitled to completely free treatment on the NHS - which they continue to pay for through their taxes even if they don't use it - and it is therefore completely reasonable for the State to do a little to help out.

When you dig beneath the surface, so much of Labour's attitude is 'if I can't have it, neither should you.' But then that's socialism for you. It makes me sick.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Because as I have said I do not believe many will go private. So waiting times will not go down as drastically as someone would think. I have no problem with people going private, but most of the people who can afford this under the tory system will be the same people who go private now. So it wont really cut waiting times and it will take a billion pounds of the NHS money. This is a good idea if the torys add a billion pounds to make up for it, then fine.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

well show us the facts please, the proof that the NHS will not suffer as Tory will should they get in power with this policy be taking from the NHS half the current trunover of private health care. If you can prove beyond doubt with full facts and figures that the NHS will not become a hugely diluted service with this policy as a cause then great.
IMO this policy is treading into very dangerous territory and could lead to the beginning of the end of the NHS as we know it.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I went private a couple of years back and wouldn't hesitate to do it again in the future. I have BUPA through work and had a big lump on the front of my shin. The doctor (NHS GP) asked me if I had private healthcare when he saw me. He told me that I would have to wait over 6 months to even see a consultant about it. As it was, I had it removed within about 4 weeks privately.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

you might not be aware of this but where the waiting list exceeds targets, the current policy (a Labour one) is to send the person to have the operation done privately and PAID FOR BY THE NHS! so the conservative idea might (ironically) save the NHS money - firstly by giving an incentive for loads more people to go private and secondly by reducing the waiting lists thus stopping the NHS funding 100% of treatment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C...0418%2C00.html


and here's a story to amuse you...

my friend is quite ill and trys to book to see his consultant because he needs to have an operation done but he's told he needs to wait X number of weeks before he can see the consultant so he pays around £150 of his own money to see the consultant privately.

He sees the consultant who agrees he needs the operation...

"great when can you book me in for it, I would like it done on the NHS as I cant afford to pay for it privately"

consultant says "sorry, I can only book you for a private operation if you want it on the NHS you'll have to make an appointment to see me again but this time an NHS appointment"

obviously my friend is very angry at this point having spent £150 to jump the NHS consultation queue only to find this was pointless and a waste of cash.

So he ends up seeing the consultant again after a few weeks and the operation is agreed - and this is the brilliant bit... he's now outside the waiting list limit so the local NHS trust PAY the FULL cost of his operation to be done PRIVATELY!!! Is this how they keep the waiting lists down?

Anyway, to top everything else... originally he was within the waiting list and had he not been made to wait for the NHS consultation, the operation would have been able to be done on the NHS!!!

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

having followed a lot of it i think i will actually vote this year and go for the loony Party, they seem capable of running the country as well as anyone else and at this moment in time seem a lot more honest

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

If these workers come from a country within the European Union then they are legally working here. Even so the numbers do not constitute cause for concern. The immigration service staff will get quite annoyed everytime Mr. Howard repeats his claims. The situation is not serious at all.

It is ridiculous to keep saying that immigration is not controlled, only yesterday I heard of a Zimbabean asylum seeker quite cruely, unjustly being deported, as many others have been and still are.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

please be more specific - which loony party will you be voting for? Lib Dem, Labour or Conservative?

:p:

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Maybe it's Labour's attitude but it's not the socialist ideal of fair access to limited resources. It's the conservative attitude of greed, the 'I deserve more than the next person' attitude, that makes me sick.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

The UN has said that the Torys plans will actually increase asylum seekers and they may withhold there support if the torys will the election.


http://politics.guardian.co.uk/elect...463810,00.html

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Sorry, burden of proof doesn't work like that. You have made the allegation that the NHS will become a hugely diluted service as a result of Tory policy. You prove it.
__________________

A very good point. Labour is already paying 100% of the cost of some operations done in private hospitals. The Tories propose to fund only a proportion of the cost of treatment in private hospitals.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

The Labour policy is to throw money at the problem to keep waiting lists within policital targets. The problem with this is that it simply takes staff away from the NHS as the people doing the private ops are the same people who work in the NHS! And you could view it as a political way of faking an improvement in the NHS.

The Conservative policy is to get you to throw half of you own money at it and half of the tax payers. The problem is though that no-one knows if this will encourage more 'well off' people to go private or will just make it cheaper for people who would have gone private anyway.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I have no need to prove anything. I did not make any such allegations you claim. Something you fail to be able to differentiate between is an opinion and an allegation.

Politicians from all parties prove, with such regularity that they cannot deliver their promises.
Every manifesto is based on a presumed economy, which in turn means all policies within the manifestos are to say the least presumtious, as economy affects all policies.
From what Iv seen in this campaign so far it has to be the most childish and bitchy campaing in UK history.

Still while you can fool most of the people most of the time political reform will never take place and we will continue to suffer as a race from the continual political shams and scams imposed on us by this current status quo under the guise of it being a free society in a democracy, which is so far from the truth it begs belief.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Did I say they were people from inside the EU? I thought I made it clear by saying they were illegally living and working here. They were from non-EU eastern european countries. I find it amusing that you say immigration is controlled, but when I point out specific cases you say the numbers aren't worth worrying about. If I pointed out a high-rise with 1000 in it, would that be 'cause for concern'? This is just a couple of houses that I personally know the whereabouts of. Do you honestly think these are the only ones around the London area, or the UK? If you do, then you're very naive. I point you back to the article I linked to in the week 2 thread, which you either didn't see or chose not to reply to as it doesn't back up your view. The government itself conservatively estimates over half a million illegal immigrants living inside the UK. Immigration is not controlled. How can it be controlled when we let people into this country on holiday or short term visas, but don't keep a check to see if they leave or not.

This ex-girlfriend of mine had a friend who came over around the same time and had already been deported from Ireland for overstaying her visa and working when she shouldn't. She had a stamp in her passport to this end, but this was taken care of with a bit of money to the right person and then voila, she was able to get a short-term student visa to the UK from one of our consulates. When she got here, she didn't even register with the college. She started working in a large heathrow hotel and living in one of these houses, but found the house too crowded, so left and started living in another house like this (I don't know where this one is) in the Islington area and working in a major london hotel.

The agency my ex got her student visa through told her that she didn't have to do things legally if she didn't want to as they knew people in London that could get her papers and jobs. Once I dropped this friend of my exes off at one of these agencies, run by a russian guy, just off the Strand in a very nice looking building. Not exactly shoestring budget, backstreet operation by the looks of it.

I look at your faith in the immigration service and then at my experience of how easy it is to get in here, get false papers, NI numbers etc. and laugh. I don't believe immigration is controlled. Some parts might be to a very slight extent, but the whole system is flawed and is by no means whatsoever controlled. You seem to think all the people coming in to this country will play by the rules, but they don't and there are plenty of people making money from helping them get round the poor system we have in place.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I am now undecided. I won't vote conservative because I do not agree with their immigration policies or what they state as facts regarding the state of the NHS.

Labour seem to be deflecting a huge amount of NHS propoganda at tthe moment and acheiving it quite succesfully.

The Lib dems who I would have voted for have nothing about free care for younger infirm people and I don't like the back to work policy because I can't find a nursing job that would give me a bed for a ouple of hours a day and stil pay me :)

So I am undecided. The lines between the three major parties are all very blurred.

Sian

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

"The Sun" has announced that it has decided to back Labour in the election which I think is based on public opinion they haven't the balls to back anything other than the favourite.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Blimey, they changed their tune. They were crazy about the Tories a couple of days ago.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the latiest Tory PPB? Why do all PPBs have all that deliberate dodgy camera work. You know, off centre focusing, deliberately wobbling the camera, speed of light pans, and some extremely dodgy angles of subjects. They always look like they have been done by 15 year olds, but you know they paid a porper company proper money to do that. Doesn't bode well when you think one of them is going to be in charge of a budget of hundreds of billions... :disturbd:

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Makes them seem folksy. You know, nice little chap from down the street who uses his little camera to record his family? The sort of guy you can trust, unlike big mean Mr Blair with his spin.

Its fit in with the whole tory campain (i.e Handwritten posters)
__________________

:Yikes:

You sure? Labour will be getting ****ed tonight

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

:(

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I did metion they all do it...

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/

LOL, Red smoke
__________________

Labour did one, when brown and blair were talking, same reason. Lib dems havent done one have they :confused:

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

it's because Rupert Murdock doesnt like the Conservative immigration policy and likes Tony Blair's stance on the Iraq war.

so now there's even more incentive to vote Conservative as it will put egg on 'the suns' face if you're a Sun hater and it will be a vote against Rupert!


Conservative's will also be abolishing stamp duty on houses below £250k. Sounds sensible to me.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

When i stopped reading the Sun. My brain started working again :LOL::D

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Yes I know there are cases of abuse. We do seem to have a problem with tax avoiding truck drivers who are only too willing to accept money from people smugglers, job agencies who spend most of their time exploiting local workers, accepting contracts from employers who turn a blind eye to employing people whose stay may not be legal. No doubt these same people vote Tory.

In this country the immigration service is responsible for controlling immigration and I'm sure they must be getting rather bored with headline grabbing Tory politicians seeking publicity. The immigration service & Inland Revenue are active in tracking down and dealing with illegal activities. Deportations take place regularly and unfortunatetly a number of genuine cases end up being deported.

You need to remember that over 350,000 UK citizens on average leave the UK every year becoming immigrants themselves elsewhere. So in the end any illegals can only be insignificant.

The Tories really ought to be explaining how their tax proposals and schemes for the economy are going to make sense, but of course they can't since this would expose the programme for job losses.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

In previous threads I was incorrect my area is actually labour, and i think he's worried about his seat, as two sets of flyers later which prove nothing and contradict themselves hasnt gotten them anywhere.
I had some small amusement when a labour rep called round asking if they could count on my vote. It was so easy to say 'No way'

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

That kind of slur probably gets you a barrel of laughs down at your local Labour club but it does nothing to advance the cause of reasoned, adult debate. Shame on you.

Rubbish. As the Tories have been pointing out, the Immigration Service is one of IIRC eight agencies involved in the whole business of keeping people out of the UK who should not be here. The IS processes the ones that get caught, but you yourself have also mentioned the Inland Revenue, and there are others, Customs and Excise being an example. The Tory policy of streamlining border policing and control seems eminently sensible to me. Only a true red Labourite, with that typical 'jobs for the boys' mentality (bring down unemployment by stuffing the public sector with useless middle managers and administrators), could think otherwise. More on that in a second though.

Clearly they are not insignificant, else it would not be an election issue in every seat whose constituency has a problem. How I wish you were campaigning in a place like Dover. It would be fun listening to you defend the indefensible while it was right under your nose instead of at a safe distance.

Errrm... they have already candidly admitted that pruning the mess your lot have made of the public sector is part of how they're going to save a great big wad of public cash. I don't see why this should bother you though. If the economy is in the truly rosy state you assure us it is, then it oughtn't be too hard for them to find alternative, useful employment.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

What mess, where ? oh we dont know, it just exists because some jumped up bunch of a$$wipes says it does. Brittish politics at its best.

Our democratic nation has come down to a new philosophy
we have a$$holes in power, we can:
1. vote them back in
2. replace them with... yep you gessed it yet another bunch of a$$holes.

Such an intelligent way to live.

You can fool most of the people most of the time, and most brittish are just that, to continue falling for the same speel over and over again, in such a repeated way is so ridiculous its laughable. and yes Thats exactly what all the MP's are doing, laughing at the nation.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Classic quote on the ITV late news tonight, Tony 'Bliar' (not an sp) has visited the neglected North once again.

As he was going walkabout on a council estate in Rochdale, the reporter said, "the people on the estate looked out to see a strange sight, no not Mr Blair but the policeman with him" .

Now I laughed at first, but as they say, "many a true word spoken in jest".

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

funny that - I saw a couple of coppers patrolling Baguley a few saturdays back - I had the same feeling - i.e. what a strange sight. I almost pulled over and asked if they were lost! another reason to not vote Labour as they have screwed the budget this year for manchester police which will result in cut backs.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Love it! Good idea, I might give it a try, but I'm too busy. Any shame belongs to any Bitish Tory voting, tax dodging, truck driver who may be involved in people smuggling.

The issue is solely being raised to grab votes, immigrants whether legal or not are the people who bear the cross on this, there have racist incidents during this campaign already. I believe that IND and relevant government agencies are doing their job, go and see the forced removals at Heathrow or Gatwick, it's brutal. The Torys intend to sack thousands of civil servants, the Home Office is no doubt a target.




Clearly number crunching will show there is no need for concern. There is controlled immigration. You keep quoting Dover, have you tried counting those UK citizens who leave to take up residence in France or Spain etc. The government has been dispersing claimants over many towns. Can't people like you have any pity for asylum seekers, why must you continue to treat them as if they are inferior.




The economy has been in safe hands since 1997, low inflation, low interest rates and low unemployment. If your friend Mr. Howard takes over he and his friends will ruin it. Where will Mr. Howard find his £35 billion spending cuts? The health service , education, public services will be denied the money they need.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

He certainly didn't say that. He said it needs to be controlled. I differ with him on that because the figures show that after a massive rise it then fell dramatically. At the moment its on a par with 1997 or under. Also labour has increased the numbers of officers. Basically a lot is being done.

The fact the torys did spend ages on this one issue however (imo) is because they are being chasing votes on this issue without offering any real ways to address it.

1) Which country is going to agree for an off-shore processing centre to be put into their country?

2) A 'quota' on immigrants? That is amazing, which happens if we suddenly need more skilled workers?

3) They already admitted they cant afford a 24 hour security at every port

They keep using 'its not racist to talk about immigration' but no one is accusing them of that, why do they keep using the same term!? It seems to me that this appeals to people who are constantly worried about being called racist? It looks a wink to some people that the Tories are on there side. Also while Chris has explained himself and is genuinely worried about immigration there is no doubt that some people using worries about immigration to hide a under-lying mistrust of racist feelings towards immigrants! (i.e they are getting free houses, they cause disease, and more tellingly everyone thinks of muslims and asians. No one thinks of americans, europeans, or one of the single biggest groups the irish)

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

So British, tax-dodging, people-smuggling truck drivers are OK in your book, so long as they vote Labour? OK .... :erm:

Yes, the issue is being raised to grab votes. The purpose of every statement made by every politician for the last two and a half weeks is to grab votes. The purpose of every statement made by every politician for the next two and a half weeks will also be to grab votes. We're in the middle of a General Election and everybody wants to win it. To win it you need votes, and to get votes you have to promise to do things the voters deem worthwhile. I don't see the problem. :confused:

As for racist incidents ... the biggest problem seems to be in Bethnal Green, where Oona King (Blairite bottom-licker) and George Galloway (loony left, real Labourite) are slugging it out. Go figure.

I don't know why you keep raising this as if it's a scandalous secret. Everyone knows Labour has swelled the civil service with excessive middle-managers and pen-pushers and that should the Tories get the chance they will improve efficiency by making redundancies. Those who face the axe should aim their inevitable resentment at the Labour money-wasters who gave them false hope in the first place.

Number crunching? I wish. What a pity your esteemed leader Blair proved that he and his Goverment haven't the first clue how to crunch numbers on asylum and immigration, and in fact that they don't even know what the numbers are. How many times was it that Paxman tried to get him to answer that point? About 20? How can there be 'control' when nobody in the Government knows, even as a rough estimate, how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK?

:rolleyes:

Is that how you deal with people who have a disagreement with you? In the final analysis all you can manage is to slur and distort. I don't consider asylum seekers inferior. And Our lorry fleet is not crewed by shameless, tax-dodging tory people smugglers. I have lost all hope of ever getting something like reasoned opinion out of you so I don't propose to try any longer. There you go, you can have the last word if you want it.

Utter, utter, blinkered rubbish. If you really think that the economy was in a mess until 1997 and then was miraculously turned round in about six months, by an incoming Labour government that made no attempt to change Tory spending plans for two whole years, then you have absolutely no understanding of politics or economics whatsoever. If I were the chairman of your local Labour party I'd be frankly terrified to send you out canvassing. Anybody with an ounce of sense should have no trouble tying you up in knots on their doorstep.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Howard himself when he was in government said that you cannot put a number of illegal immigrants.

Also from the bbc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...es/4472735.stm

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

http://www.tacticalvoter.net/?show=index&

Very intresting site!

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

You have a capacity for being unpleasant and insulting. I suggest you get out and experience something of the real world.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

trends so far on cf:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2005/05/13.jpg
conservatives are holding steady (no surprises there ;))
lib dem & labour trading blows (as might be expected)
big swing of minority parties voters turning apathetic (are we all really this predictable? :p: )


yes, i'm bored.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Great graph bmxbandit! :tu:

A minor suggestion - would it be possible to change the colours to their more normal connections (Red for Labour, etc.) for next week? That woud greatly improve the readability.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

y'know, i never thought of that! changed...you might need to do a ctrl-F5 to see the new one though.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

:tu: :)
__________________

It is but it is very biased against the Conservatives:

Does anybody know if there is a similar site in which you can swap your vote to oust Labour?

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this but........ did anyone see Hague trying to defend the asylum seeker quota policy on Question Time. It was hilarious. One would almost think he didn't believe in it himself from the mess he got into. Apparently it's a quota except that it's not cos they after they've hit the limit they will still let people in if need be.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Link

Reality Check: Look for the whoppers i'm going to say as I am a politicain aswell.

Reality check: I play the same game, just like my predecessors.

Reality Check: I dont care really we will all get paid anyway, a change in government is inevetible, just maybe not in my time as Conservative leader. We all play golf at the same club and none of us really give a stuff about the people of the country. Every so often we have to actually make it look like we do something by giving the people the oportunity of believing they actually have a say. Polls show election turn out is still going to be reasonable, you can still fool most of the people most of the time ;-)

Vote 2005. Enjoy the sham. They act so well they deserve the pay for these occasional shows they have to put on.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

who says the economy is in good shape now? despite tax increases and raiding the pension funds, the government is borrowing loads of dosh in order to keep to their spending plans:-

http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=77972004

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

You clearly have no understanding of the procedure of Voter ID practised by the three leading parties. The goal is to secure promises, identify your support or the voter's likely choice. You have no time to engage in intellectual debate, this is often a tactic practised by opposition supporters who aim to delay your work, one moves on.

Significantly, the Tories have not debated the economy clearly their weakest arguments are there, hence why they concentrate on immigration and tax.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

I saw a large sign beside the m25 (i think could be later part of m3) yesterday saying somthing along the lines 'who cares about farming and the countryside? Blair doesnt VOTE HIM OUT'.

I chuckled at least and hopefully the message gets across. It is a matter of principal that bliar should be removed his government cannot be allowed to get away with what they have promised to do and then done the opposite in the past

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

labour have made so many mistakes, i think it says a lot about the tories (and to a certain extent the lib dems) that they haven't been able to captalise on this...

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

No, I have no understanding of the procedure of Voter ID but your useful summary has helped make things a lot clearer. If I'd realised a little sooner that you're just a Party drone I'd have stopped expecting cogent analyses of the state of our nation several pages ago.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

The Government (of whatever colour) could put all our GDP into the Health Service and it would still not be enough. We need immigrants to run Care Homes and staff the NHS.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

They have done a lot of good things as well. The previous tory government did as well but they didn't get much credit and same with labour. You are always in the wrong when in government, the bad is highlighted on the front page of every paper while the good is never shown unless its shown in a negative light

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Been meaning to get round to posting this all day. I strongly recommend everyone has a listen to this. It's this morning's 8.10am interview from Radio 4's Today programme. The interviewer is John Humphreys and the victim is Jack Straw, who does a valiant job defending the indefensible now that it has become clear that the legal advice Tone et al received prior to invading Iraq was far from unequivocal.

http://www0.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/l...w_20050425.ram

You will seldom hear a more incisive piece of live radio journalism. I was cheering and laughing out loud listening to this in the car on the way to work this morning.

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Now that is one rattled FS!!! bless him!...I bet he changed his brownies after that! :p:

Re: Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll
 

Well, we are now entering week 4 of the campaign! Time to refresh this discussion with a new poll and a new thread. This week 3 thread will close in the next hour.