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me283 14-04-2005 21:39
Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
I read in today's press that the chap who was found with the Ricin in his flat in Wood Green was given 17 years; he has already been given a life term for murdering one of the PCs who tried to arrest him.

I am going out on a limb here, as there will be the inevitable outpourings from the "human rights" brigade, but am I alone in thinking that this is one case where the death penalty would have been the best thing? Otherwise his life sentence, and the concurrent 17 year term, will no doubt mean he will be back on the streets at some stage, and free to start over again.

Alternatively, what are the chances of his evental deportation? (I read that he was an illegal immigrant - maybe that can be confirmed or denied?)

Damien 14-04-2005 21:44
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
He was an illegal immigrant. As for human rights and the death penalty...its not what we do. A lot of anger is quite rightly directed at this man but killing him for our revenge is not the right thing to do. Simply because it does not make a difference.

Killing someone for revenge is wrong and it doesnt prevent other criminals commiting crimes

punky 14-04-2005 22:14
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
TBH the illegal immigrant thing isn't an issue. He happened to be illegal, but I don't think terrorists are more likely to be illegal... It is easy enough to come into this country legally, especially if you are under Al Qaeda, and have plenty off money, access to lawyers, businesses, etc.

Death penalty? Dunno. If he is prison for life without parole, then maybe, but here and now, life in prison means 20 years, and then you get time off for good behavior on that.

I'd like to deport him, because I don't want to give my hard earned money to keep him fed, healthy and happy... I'd rather him be someone else's problem but deporting him probably means he'll end up back in Al Qaeda with a chance to come back...

Damien 14-04-2005 22:19
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
TBH the illegal immigrant thing isn't an issue. He happened to be illegal, but I don't think terrorists are more likely to be illegal... It is easy enough to come into this country legally, especially if you are under Al Qaeda, and have plenty off money, access to lawyers, businesses, etc.

Death penalty? Dunno. If he is prison for life without parole, then maybe, but here and now, life in prison means 20 years, and then you get time off for good behavior on that.

I'd like to deport him, because I don't want to give my hard earned money to keep him fed, healthy and happy... I'd rather him be someone else's problem but deporting him probably means he'll end up back in Al Qaeda with a chance to come back...
Yeah, Also its more likely to be a british citizen who would commit an terrorist act. Good behaviour? This guy is a terrorist, which means if hes ever let out MI5 will be watching closely. Also this goverment hasnt been to keen to let terrorists walk around the streets.

BBKing 14-04-2005 22:32
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
I am going out on a limb here, as there will be the inevitable outpourings from the "human rights" brigade, but am I alone in thinking that this is one case where the death penalty would have been the best thing?
I take it you're opposed to human rights then? Why? You're a human, presumably.

Several things struck me about this case:

1) the 'terrorism' he was allegedly engaged in was extremely minor - he didn't manage to create anything dangerous, was evidently unsupported by al-Qaeda (he had to shoplift to keep himself going, and got nicked for it), plus everyone else brought to trial with him was acquitted or the case dropped.

2) Ricin isn't something you'd expect to cause major casualties - while extremely nasty, it's much less dangerous than a conventional bomb.

3) By far the most serious aspect of the case was the murder of the police officer - this, as a crime, is to my mind far more serious than the 'terrorism' and I'd like to see anyone argue to the contrary. So why was the bringing to justice of a particularly vicious cop killer forcibly kept quiet and the ricin case splashed over the papers?

4) Why did a senior Met anti-terrorism rozzer and the deputy Chief Medical Officer say that ricin had been found in the flat when none had - that's called 'lying', in my book.

5) Why did Colin Powell *in front of the UN* attempt to link the case to Iraq, when there's no evidence for it being anything other than a lone nut who was trained in Afghanistan by a group opposed to Saddam Hussein's regime on ideological grounds?

6) ID cards wouldn't have stopped him killing the policeman or obtaining ricin recipes and it's dishonest to suggest it would for political points scoring.

me283 14-04-2005 22:33
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
He was an illegal immigrant. As for human rights and the death penalty...its not what we do. A lot of anger is quite rightly directed at this man but killing him for our revenge is not the right thing to do. Simply because it does not make a difference.

Killing someone for revenge is wrong and it doesnt prevent other criminals commiting crimes
Who mentioned revenge? The guy is a danger to our society. He was willing to commit genocide on as great a scale as possible. I fail to see how he can ever become a decent member of any society.

As for being watched by MI5... well that's great. Not only will he be an expensive drain on our security services, but what if he manages to get away? Do we trust that his jail term will have rehabilitated him?

True, we don't "do" the death penalty; but in my opinion that's a pity in this case. I wonder how a similar offender would be treated in his own country?

cookie_365 14-04-2005 22:38
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
<snip> ... I am going out on a limb here, as there will be the inevitable outpourings from the "human rights" brigade, but am I alone in thinking that this is one case where the death penalty would have been the best thing? ... <snip>
Hope so

Damien 14-04-2005 22:47
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Who mentioned revenge? The guy is a danger to our society. He was willing to commit genocide on as great a scale as possible. I fail to see how he can ever become a decent member of any society.

As for being watched by MI5... well that's great. Not only will he be an expensive drain on our security services, but what if he manages to get away? Do we trust that his jail term will have rehabilitated him?

True, we don't "do" the death penalty; but in my opinion that's a pity in this case. I wonder how a similar offender would be treated in his own country?
I am not sure what *his countrys* position is on this. You seen to be of the view that all middle easten countrys beat there criminals to death. Anyway, it doesnt matter. We are not in that country, we're in this country where we value human rights and logical justice

me283 14-04-2005 22:48
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I take it you're opposed to human rights then? Why? You're a human, presumably.

Several things struck me about this case:

1) the 'terrorism' he was allegedly engaged in was extremely minor - he didn't manage to create anything dangerous, was evidently unsupported by al-Qaeda (he had to shoplift to keep himself going, and got nicked for it), plus everyone else brought to trial with him was acquitted or the case dropped.

2) Ricin isn't something you'd expect to cause major casualties - while extremely nasty, it's much less dangerous than a conventional bomb.

3) By far the most serious aspect of the case was the murder of the police officer - this, as a crime, is to my mind far more serious than the 'terrorism' and I'd like to see anyone argue to the contrary. So why was the bringing to justice of a particularly vicious cop killer forcibly kept quiet and the ricin case splashed over the papers?

4) Why did a senior Met anti-terrorism rozzer and the deputy Chief Medical Officer say that ricin had been found in the flat when none had - that's called 'lying', in my book.

5) Why did Colin Powell *in front of the UN* attempt to link the case to Iraq, when there's no evidence for it being anything other than a lone nut who was trained in Afghanistan by a group opposed to Saddam Hussein's regime on ideological grounds?

6) ID cards wouldn't have stopped him killing the policeman or obtaining ricin recipes and it's dishonest to suggest it would for political points scoring.
In answer (to the best of my knowledge):

1) "Allegedly? He was found with ingredients to make ricin AND cyanide. And he was found guilty, hence not "allegedly". And why minor? Had he not been caught, how can you say it was minor? Can ricin kill?

2) Does it matter how "nasty" the poison is?

3) The original murder trial was kept under wraps until the terrorism-based trial had concluded "for security reasons". No, I don't know what that means.

4) I understood that it had been found. At what stage of it's manufacturing process, again I do not know.

5) There are reports that it was Al-Qaeda supported. But what exactly does that have to do with it?

6) Who actually mentioned ID cards??!! Or is that just a diversion tactic?

For the record, I am opposed to the ridiculous "human rights" legislation currently in effect. I believe this individual forfeited any kind of "human rights" the moment he ceased to act like a human, and decided to try and remove anyone elses rights of any kind.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
I am not sure what *his countrys* position is on this. You seen to be of the view that all middle easten countrys beat there criminals to death. Anyway, it doesnt matter. We are not in that country, we're in this country where we value human rights and logical justice
He is Algerian, that is not in the Middle East.

Damien 14-04-2005 22:55
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
For the record, I am opposed to the ridiculous "human rights" legislation currently in effect.
Why are you against it?

me283 14-04-2005 23:08
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Why are you against it?
That's off-topic, and well-documented elsewhere.

punky 14-04-2005 23:13
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Good behaviour? This guy is a terrorist, which means if hes ever let out MI5 will be watching closely. Also this goverment hasnt been to keen to let terrorists walk around the streets.
I doubt it. He'll probably do 15 years so he'll be next to useless without further re-training. In 15 years time there will be a whole other group of well trained, fit youngsters to take his place.

me283 14-04-2005 23:15
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
I doubt it. He'll probably do 15 years so he'll be next to useless without training. In 15 years time there will be a whole other group of well trained, fit youngsters to take his place.
Whereas, were he to be sat on Death Row now, those youngsters might not be so keen to take his place...

punky 14-04-2005 23:16
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Whereas, were he to be sat on Death Row now, those youngsters might not be so keen to take his place...
Well TBH mate, these nut cases want to martyr themselves... The threatening a would-be martyr with the death penalty I doubt would scare them much.

danielf 14-04-2005 23:17
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
That's off-topic, and well-documented elsewhere.
Why is it off-topic? You brought it up. In fact, by insisting on using quotation marks when referring to human rights, you appear to make a point of bringing it up in every other post.

me283 14-04-2005 23:20
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Why is it off-topic? You brought it up. In fact, by insisting on using quotation marks when referring to human rights, you appear to make a point of bringing it up in every other post.
Well if you've read so many of my posts you will know why I am so opposed to it.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
Well TBH mate, these nut cases want to martyr themselves... The threatening a would-be martyr with the death penalty I doubt would scare them much.
I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.

danielf 14-04-2005 23:28
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Well if you've read so many of my posts you will know why I am so opposed to it.
actually no. So please explain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.
Ah, but if I remember correctly, a muslim that dies in a holy war is guaranteed entry into heaven (according to muslim religion), so what you're advocating may appeal to some as a cushy way into heaven.

me283 14-04-2005 23:38
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
actually no. So please explain...



Ah, but if I remember correctly, a muslim that dies in a holy war is guaranteed entry into heaven (according to muslim religion), so what you're advocating may appeal to some as a cushy way into heaven.
Putting it simply, it does not take into account the rights of the many, whose rights are impinged by others... in a nutshell.

And if I am not wrong, a dead terrorist cannot commit further atrocities, martyr or not.

Tezcatlipoca 14-04-2005 23:40
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
He was willing to commit genocide on as great a scale as possible.

He chose a very poor weapon, then. Ricin is not a WMD, & is no use if you want to commit genocide. Poison one person, or a few people, yes, but not masses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
In answer (to the best of my knowledge):

2) Does it matter how "nasty" the poison is?
Yes.

Ricin is a poison, is "nasty", & can kill. But not on the scale of something like anthrax, or other "proper" CBW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
4) I understood that it had been found. At what stage of it's manufacturing process, again I do not know.
Initial press reports were that it had been found. Subsequent tests found that there was no ricin at the flat at all - although the press reports were never corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
5) There are reports that it was Al-Qaeda supported. But what exactly does that have to do with it?
The press (& Government, & the US) made it out to be part of some huge Al Qaeda plot, the Govt & the US also tried to link it to Iraq, to drum up support for the upcoming war. Colin Powell even mentioned the "ricin plot" in his speech to the UN before the war.

But there were no Al Qaeda links.

Just some murdering nutter with recipes obtained from the net.

me283 14-04-2005 23:49
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt D
He chose a very poor weapon, then. Ricin is not a WMD, & is no use if you want to commit genocide. Poison one person, or a few people, yes, but not masses.



Yes.

Ricin is a poison, is "nasty", & can kill. But not on the scale of something like anthrax, or other "proper" CBW.



Initial press reports were that it had been found. Subsequent tests found that there was no ricin at the flat at all - although the press reports were never corrected.



The press (& Government, & the US) made it out to be part of some huge Al Qaeda plot, the Govt & the US also tried to link it to Iraq, to drum up support for the upcoming war. Colin Powell even mentioned the "ricin plot" in his speech to the UN before the war.

But there were no Al Qaeda links.

Just some murdering nutter with recipes obtained from the net.
Very dismissive. No mention of cyanide in your reply though? Is that just another "nasty" poison? I think not.

But bear in mind, as you concur, he wanted to commit genocide. Do you think he would have changed his mind if (and I don't necessarily agree here) his ricin had failed?

punky 15-04-2005 00:47
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I think martyrdom might be less appealing if it involved possible execution, instead of 15 years in jail with regular visits, nice facilities, the odd appeal, and other perks.
If he really wants to be a martyr, then in that case i'd be more likely to deny him execution and let him live him in jail, just to pi** him off more.

me283 15-04-2005 01:12
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
If he really wants to be a martyr, then in that case i'd be more likely to deny him execution and let him live him in jail, just to pi** him off more.
But I believe punishment should fit the crime... and 15 years of cushy prison doesn't equate to plotting genocide? But I take your point; it's just a pity that life imprisonment doesn't mean life.

homealone 15-04-2005 01:19
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Very dismissive. No mention of cyanide in your reply though? Is that just another "nasty" poison? I think not.

But bear in mind, as you concur, he wanted to commit genocide. Do you think he would have changed his mind if (and I don't necessarily agree here) his ricin had failed?
cyanide is useless in the open air - it is less dense & rises, it only works in an enclosed space, as a gas...

Graham 15-04-2005 01:40
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Some people in this thread might be interested to read the following from The Register...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...en_ricin_case/

It contains some rather interesting and relevant *FACTS* about this case...!

Damien 15-04-2005 08:10
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Whereas, were he to be sat on Death Row now, those youngsters might not be so keen to take his place...
The death penality has no effect on reducing crime

andyl 15-04-2005 08:45
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
In fact, by insisting on using quotation marks when referring to human rights, you appear to make a point of bringing it up in every other post.
I'm glad it's not just me who finds this childish habit irritating. As I do those who put words in capitals as if that makes their point more worthy. It doesn't.

Sorry, off topic, but I do feel better for it.

On this case one thing that really struck me was the forgiveness expressed by Stephen Oake's wife. She struck me as a verey dignified woman and it's a shame that her and her family's grief will be trodden on as the political parties try to make capital out of this.

me283 15-04-2005 08:55
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone
cyanide is useless in the open air - it is less dense & rises, it only works in an enclosed space, as a gas...
It was reported that the cyanide gas was to be used on the underground.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
I'm glad it's not just me who finds this childish habit irritating. As I do those who put words in capitals as if that makes their point more worthy. It doesn't.

Sorry, off topic, but I do feel better for it.

On this case one thing that really struck me was the forgiveness expressed by Stephen Oake's wife. She struck me as a verey dignified woman and it's a shame that her and her family's grief will be trodden on as the political parties try to make capital out of this.
CAPITALS are used to emphasise; some also use bold. It is the written equivalent to verbal inflection. "Inverted commas" are used by some in a semi-mocking tone, or if you like, a written equivalent to verbal sarcasm.

It's a pity you don't like the way people express themselves.

Nugget 15-04-2005 08:56
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The death penality has no effect on reducing crime
Having said that, it does have an effect on reducing criminals ;)

The problem with the death penalty is that there is too much potential for the wrong person to be punished. Obviously, in this case, the guy has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly.

However, I don't feel that the death penalty would be applicable for the ricin issue (the fact that he murdered a policeman is another issue). With regards to the potential 'genocide', while he possessed the tools to harm / murder a fairly large amount of people, he didn't actually do it. As a result, if the death penalty was enforced, surely, in this instance, it would have been enforced because of the potential for somebody to commit the crime, in which case we could all be in trouble because we all have that potential.

me283 15-04-2005 09:04
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The death penality has no effect on reducing crime
No doubt you can produce stats from America, but that has been mooted many times. It remains to be seen.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Some people in this thread might be interested to read the following from The Register...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...en_ricin_case/

It contains some rather interesting and relevant *FACTS* about this case...!
Very interesting, good link. Thanks for that. It's surprising how reports differ.

Stuart 15-04-2005 09:25
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The death penality has no effect on reducing crime
Having said that, it does have an effect on reducing criminals ;)
Usually to ashes...

Quote:

The problem with the death penalty is that there is too much potential for the wrong person to be punished. Obviously, in this case, the guy has been found guilty and sentenced accordingly.
True. While I often defend our legal system, it's possible for mistakes to occur in any legal system.

Quote:
However, I don't feel that the death penalty would be applicable for the ricin issue (the fact that he murdered a policeman is another issue). With regards to the potential 'genocide', while he possessed the tools to harm / murder a fairly large amount of people, he didn't actually do it. As a result, if the death penalty was enforced, surely, in this instance, it would have been enforced because of the potential for somebody to commit the crime, in which case we could all be in trouble because we all have that potential.
True. As far as I can tell (of course, I haven't seen the evidence, so could be wrong), all they have proved is he had the recipe, and some of the ingrediants for Ricin. Even assuming he did manage to make it up, possessing a dangerous chemical is not a good reason to put somebody to death. After all, we all have bottles of bleach, disinfectant, various poisons for gardening etc. If he HAD released the Ricin (or cyanide) into an area and killed or injured people, that would be more of a reason.

me283, this is off topic, but you seem to know an awful lot about prisons (pretty sure I've seen you compare them to holiday camps before). Do you actually have any experience of them (visiting, or talking to people that have experienced prison), or are you basing your opinion on what the media say? As I have said, I know someone who did do time, and he paints a different picture of prison life.

me283 15-04-2005 09:47
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
me283, this is off topic, but you seem to know an awful lot about prisons (pretty sure I've seen you compare them to holiday camps before). Do you actually have any experience of them (visiting, or talking to people that have experienced prison), or are you basing your opinion on what the media say? As I have said, I know someone who did do time, and he paints a different picture of prison life.
No, it wasn't me that compared them to holiday camps. But my knowledge of them is definitely not based on what tthe press say. Whilst I don't see them as "Butlins with bars", I also don't see them as quite the punitive measures that they really ought to be. As for the exact details of my knowledge of prisons, I would prefer to keep that under wraps!

Stuart 15-04-2005 10:19
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
No, it wasn't me that compared them to holiday camps. But my knowledge of them is definitely not based on what tthe press say. Whilst I don't see them as "Butlins with bars", I also don't see them as quite the punitive measures that they really ought to be. As for the exact details of my knowledge of prisons, I would prefer to keep that under wraps!

Fair enough..

cookie_365 15-04-2005 18:20
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Whereas, were he to be sat on Death Row now, those youngsters might not be so keen to take his place...
That is just so, so, wrong.

There'd be a hundred of them vowing to avenge his 'martyrdom' (or something spelt in a similar way ;) )

me283 15-04-2005 18:36
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
That is just so, so, wrong.

There'd be a hundred of them vowing to avenge his 'martyrdom' (or something spelt in a similar way ;) )
He is still a martyr to them now; only difference is, he has some kind of future to look forward to. The death penalty would de-glamourise his martyrdom.

Graham 15-04-2005 18:45
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
He is still a martyr to them now; only difference is, he has some kind of future to look forward to. The death penalty would de-glamourise his martyrdom.
Generally the definining characteristic of a martyr is them being *DEAD*!!!

Him not being dead is a bit of a downer, more muppet than martyr :D

cookie_365 15-04-2005 20:20
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
He is still a martyr to them now; only difference is, he has some kind of future to look forward to. The death penalty would de-glamourise his martyrdom.
I disagree, but that's an aside. The real reason why we shouldn't have the death penalty is this:

Killing people is wrong.

me283 15-04-2005 20:30
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
He will be hero-worshipped, perhaps I should have said that?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
I disagree, but that's an aside. The real reason why we shouldn't have the death penalty is this:

Killing people is wrong.
He obviously didn't think so, and he intended to do it on a mass scale. For people like that, execution is justified, in my opinion. Or would you have spared the likes of Hitler, Pol Pot, Amin, given the chance to pass sentence on them?

allieyoung666 15-04-2005 20:37
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
He will be hero-worshipped, perhaps I should have said that?
__________________



He obviously didn't think so, and he intended to do it on a mass scale. For people like that, execution is justified, in my opinion. Or would you have spared the likes of Hitler, Pol Pot, Amin, given the chance to pass sentence on them?
In his own country he will be worshiped, but not here. Why on earth dont they jus deport him, another expense to the great british public

punky 15-04-2005 20:46
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Killing people is wrong.
Bit simplistic isn't it?

cookie_365 15-04-2005 21:01
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
He will be hero-worshipped, perhaps I should have said that?
__________________



He obviously didn't think so, and he intended to do it on a mass scale. For people like that, execution is justified, in my opinion. Or would you have spared the likes of Hitler, Pol Pot, Amin, given the chance to pass sentence on them?
Yes
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
Bit simplistic isn't it?
Yes

punky 15-04-2005 21:07
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Yes
No I meant you are putting it too simplistically. You can't seriously be telling me that murder is never justified?

homealone 15-04-2005 21:17
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
No I meant you are putting it too simplistically. You can't seriously be telling me that murder is never justified?
funny as it sounds, if everybody didn't kill each other, that question need not be asked ;)

cookie_365 15-04-2005 22:01
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
No I meant you are putting it too simplistically. You can't seriously be telling me that murder is never justified?
Yes

me283 15-04-2005 22:53
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Yes
I see. Can you imagine if everyone felt the same as you do? We would all be speaking German now... those that survived. And they would be blonde haired and blue eyed.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by allieyoung666
In his own country he will be worshiped, but not here. Why on earth dont they jus deport him, another expense to the great british public
Because deporting him would upset the PC brigade. They would argue that if he were repatriated he would face torture (not sure why), or even worse. Far better that he stay in a country where the people provide for him; people that he wanted to maim or kill...

Graham 16-04-2005 00:25
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Yes
I see. Can you imagine if everyone felt the same as you do? We would all be speaking German now... those that survived. And they would be blonde haired and blue eyed.
Oh gods, can we *PLEASE* not do this bloody discussion *again*?

If you want to make comments like this, do it in a different thread.

me283 16-04-2005 06:16
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Oh gods, can we *PLEASE* not do this bloody discussion *again*?

If you want to make comments like this, do it in a different thread.
Just responding Graham, keep your hair on! As long as it's blonde ;)

allieyoung666 16-04-2005 09:12
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
But Me is right I am sad to say

Maggy 16-04-2005 09:33
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Sorry but killing anyone is wrong...Taking the law into one's own hands is wrong..

However I can see the lure of the the theory that kiliing one man to save millions could be a justification..I would like to point out that this would only ever work out in hindsight anyway as we cannot predict the future.

What if your killing that one person actually created a civil war?Gave someone even more disgusting their chance to run/ruin a country.

Also where would it end?Why not kill 10,000 people to ensure that a war never happens.Stalin worked on that theory after all.He killed all potential troublemakers before thay had even said a word.How many returning members of the Red Army from WW11 found themselves incarcerated before they could compare how much better the western system of capatalism was at feeding people than the communist system..

Killing one can often lead to killing more..It's not justified under any circumstances.

me283 16-04-2005 09:53
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Sorry but killing anyone is wrong...Taking the law into one's own hands is wrong..

However I can see the lure of the the theory that kiliing one man to save millions could be a justification..I would like to point out that this would only ever work out in hindsight anyway as we cannot predict the future.

What if your killing that one person actually created a civil war?Gave someone even more disgusting their chance to run/ruin a country.

Also where would it end?Why not kill 10,000 people to ensure that a war never happens.Stalin worked on that theory after all.He killed all potential troublemakers before thay had even said a word.How many returning members of the Red Army from WW11 found themselves incarcerated before they could compare how much better the western system of capatalism was at feeding people than the communist system..

Killing one can often lead to killing more..It's not justified under any circumstances.
I see your point. However, that is slightly different to executing someone whose aim and intention is to commit genocide, and who actually went some way in his attempts. Further, he stabbed several police officers, killing one of them. That isn't someone who might become a troublemaker, that is one loaded gun with a hair trigger.

cookie_365 16-04-2005 10:40
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I see. Can you imagine if everyone felt the same as you do? We would all be speaking German now... those that survived. And they would be blonde haired and blue eyed..
Don't see the connection. Punky asked about murder, nothing else.

me283 16-04-2005 10:43
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Don't see the connection. Punky asked about murder, nothing else.
Indeed, in response to your comment that "killing people is wrong".

Let's try an analogy here: if you had a dog that bit people, the courts would order you to have it put down on the grounds that a) it was dangerous and b) you couldn't control it.

Statements a) and b) could equally be applied to this Algerian lunatic; who may have "human rights" but seems to me to be sub-human.

cookie_365 16-04-2005 10:50
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I see your point. However, that is slightly different to executing someone whose aim and intention is to commit genocide, and who actually went some way in his attempts. Further, he stabbed several police officers, killing one of them. That isn't someone who might become a troublemaker, that is one loaded gun with a hair trigger.
If the only way of stopping him from murdering others would be to kill him, then I could accept the neccessity in that. But it clearly wasn't neccessary in this case.

Where it becomes tricky is what you might call 'non-defensive' but morally right wars.

E.g. : second world war; Hitler admired the British and would have settled for occupying Europe, and just leaving Britain be. So were we right to join the war to protect the millions facing genocide in mainland Europe? I'm pretty sure we were.

E.g.: Iraq; much less clear cut. There's little doubt that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people will now not be murdered by Saddam as a result of the war. I think it was the right thing to do to protect them, even though 'we' weren't directly threatened by Saddam. Many people obviously disagree, but none of the people who I've spoken to who opposed the war seem to have had any alternative, other than to leg Saddam get on with doing what he was doing and presumably leave the people of Iraq to whatever fate he was going to hand out.

But back to Ricin man - it's plain as day that murdering him would be wrong.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Indeed, in response to your comment that "killing people is wrong".

Let's try an analogy here: if you had a dog that bit people, the courts would order you to have it put down on the grounds that a) it was dangerous and b) you couldn't control it.

Statements a) and b) could equally be applied to this Algerian lunatic; who may have "human rights" but seems to me to be sub-human.
What does 'sub-human' mean?

punky 16-04-2005 10:52
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
So you do think murder is justified under certain conditions? You have changed your tune a bit.

Graham 16-04-2005 11:01
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
So you do think murder is justified under certain conditions? You have changed your tune a bit.
:notopic: :notopic: :notopic: :notopic: :notopic:

Damien 16-04-2005 11:13
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
So you do think murder is justified under certain conditions? You have changed your tune a bit.
Depends on what 'murder' means. I usually consider murder as a term for an unjust killling. I.E IN WW2 killing a german solider during a battle isnt murder but in this case killing the police man was murder

Note: I know that you were not addressing me

cookie_365 16-04-2005 11:19
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Depends on what 'murder' means. I usually consider murder as a term for an unjust killling. I.E IN WW2 killing a german solider during a battle isnt murder but in this case killing the police man was murder

Note: I know that you were not addressing me
But you've saved me the trouble of typing exactly the same response :)

me283 16-04-2005 11:37
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
What does 'sub-human' mean?
The man wanted to kill as many random humans as possible. He then went berserk and killed a police officer, also injuring several others. He clearly has a complete disregard for human life.

Does that clarify my meaning of "sub-human" for you? Similarly, I would describe Saddam and Hitler as being "sub-human".
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
If the only way of stopping him from murdering others would be to kill him, then I could accept the neccessity in that. But it clearly wasn't neccessary in this case.

Where it becomes tricky is what you might call 'non-defensive' but morally right wars.

E.g. : second world war; Hitler admired the British and would have settled for occupying Europe, and just leaving Britain be. So were we right to join the war to protect the millions facing genocide in mainland Europe? I'm pretty sure we were.

E.g.: Iraq; much less clear cut. There's little doubt that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people will now not be murdered by Saddam as a result of the war. I think it was the right thing to do to protect them, even though 'we' weren't directly threatened by Saddam. Many people obviously disagree, but none of the people who I've spoken to who opposed the war seem to have had any alternative, other than to leg Saddam get on with doing what he was doing and presumably leave the people of Iraq to whatever fate he was going to hand out.

But back to Ricin man - it's plain as day that murdering him would be wrong.
__________________



What does 'sub-human' mean?
Cookie,

I agree with you on WWII and Iraq. However the two basic differences between Saddam and Hitler and ricin man were scale and success. He would have done exactly what they did, and more, given time and the right level of success (for want of a better word).

punky 16-04-2005 12:03
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I agree with you on WWII and Iraq. However the two basic differences between Saddam and Hitler and ricin man were scale and success. He would have done exactly what they did, and more, given time and the right level of success (for want of a better word).
Good point.

danielf 16-04-2005 12:10
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Cookie,

I agree with you on WWII and Iraq. However the two basic differences between Saddam and Hitler and ricin man were scale and success. He would have done exactly what they did, and more, given time and the right level of success (for want of a better word).
You know him then? And his motive was being a power-hungry megalomaniac? :rolleyes:

Damien 16-04-2005 12:12
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Does that clarify my meaning of "sub-human" for you? Similarly, I would describe Saddam and Hitler as being "sub-human".
The problem is that they are human, thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s why Hitler is such a disturbing thought. He was a real man; he had thoughts and feelings just like all of us. The idea that people like that are 'sub-human' has the danger of dismissing these peopleââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s acts as something no person is capable of.

The point is that they were human and people could act like that again. The real question is what drives people to commit gross acts of evil such as those committed by Saddam and Hitler rather than dismissing them as sub human.

Your kind of right about the only difference between him and Saddam is a matter of a scale. However there a few key differences 1) this guy is in jail he cannot cause more problems, Hitler could have. Saddam is in Jail and canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t commit any more crimes. 2) The matter of scale is still important

me283 16-04-2005 12:20
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
You know him then? And his motive was being a power-hungry megalomaniac? :rolleyes:
Obviously I don't know him as well as you do. Why don't you enlighten the forum on his motives, as well as exactly what lengths he would have gone to to achieve them?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The problem is that they are human, thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s why Hitler is such a disturbing thought. He was a real man; he had thoughts and feelings just like all of us. The idea that people like that are 'sub-human' has the danger of dismissing these peopleââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s acts as something no person is capable of.

The point is that they were human and people could act like that again. The real question is what drives people to commit gross acts of evil such as those committed by Saddam and Hitler rather than dismissing them as sub human.

Your kind of right about the only difference between him and Saddam is a matter of a scale. However there a few key differences 1) this guy is in jail he cannot cause more problems, Hitler could have. Saddam is in Jail and canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t commit any more crimes. 2) The matter of scale is still important
Yes, it is scary to think that someone human (sub-human in my mind ;) ) can do these things, or even want to do these things, to the rest of the human race. Hitler is long gone; Saddam is in jail, and I doubt (hope) he is never released; but this chap could well be on the streets in 15 years, and I would expect him to be pretty p***ed off by that stage...

danielf 16-04-2005 12:24
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Obviously I don't know him as well as you do. Why don't you enlighten the forum on his motives, as well as exactly what lengths he would have gone to to achieve them?
I'm not saying I know him, and I also don't claim to know what he would or would not do, unlike you.

me283 16-04-2005 12:33
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
I'm not saying I know him, and I also don't claim to know what he would or would not do, unlike you.
Hmmm... you are right, I am supposing too much. Being caught in possession of recipes for poison, plus poison itself (allegedly), plus plans to release cyanide on the underground (allegedly), and other incriminating evidence... I guess he could have been about to change his mind and just make tea cakes for a church festival. Add to that killing a policeman, trying to kill several others, I suppose you still think there's a chance he is an all-round nice guy with honourable intentions...?

I prefer to think that someone who manufactures ricin is doing so for one purpose only... to use it as a poison. And if you need absolute proof of his intentions then the only sure proof is to see how far he would go. Big price to pay, don't you think?

But let's try your logic: how far do YOU think he would have gone?

Whilst we are on the subject, I never met Saddam either... still pretty sure he would have gone from bad to worse though. Would you doubt that too? And how about Hitler? Was he about to turn the corner and stop decimating thousands upon thousands of Jews? It's just that I never knew these people, so I can't be sure...

danielf 16-04-2005 12:46
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Hmmm... you are right, I am supposing too much. Being caught in possession of recipes for poison, plus poison itself (allegedly), plus plans to release cyanide on the underground (allegedly), and other incriminating evidence... I guess he could have been about to change his mind and just make tea cakes for a church festival. Add to that killing a policeman, trying to kill several others, I suppose you still think there's a chance he is an all-round nice guy with honourable intentions...?
No, but I'm not comparing him to Hitler and Saddam either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I prefer to think that someone who manufactures ricin is doing so for one purpose only... to use it as a poison. And if you need absolute proof of his intentions then the only sure proof is to see how far he would go. Big price to pay, don't you think?
I agree, and that's why he is in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
But let's try your logic: how far do YOU think he would have gone?
Do you mean the logic that you would like other people to think I am following (through supposition and innuendo, which if I am not mistaken is the kind of populist rhetoric that got Hitler voted into power)

me283 16-04-2005 13:05
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Do you mean the logic that you would like other people to think I am following (through supposition and innuendo, which if I am not mistaken is the kind of populist rhetoric that got Hitler voted into power)
No, I mean the logic that says "we don't know how far he would have gone, therefore we can't assume anything".

danielf 16-04-2005 13:12
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
No, I mean the logic that says "we don't know how far he would have gone, therefore we can't assume anything".
And who is supposed to be following that logic exactly?

me283 16-04-2005 15:20
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
And who is supposed to be following that logic exactly?
There I go again, assuming too much. OK, let's make this simple, you stated:

Quote:
You know him then? And his motive was being a power-hungry megalomaniac? :rolleyes:
Can you expand upon that? Perhaps explain what you are implying? Or how about you opt for stating slightly more than the bare minimum? I really can't see what point you are trying to make. :rolleyes:

danielf 16-04-2005 15:34
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
There I go again, assuming too much.
indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
OK, let's make this simple, you stated:

Can you expand upon that? Perhaps explain what you are implying? Or how about you opt for stating slightly more than the bare minimum? I really can't see what point you are trying to make. :rolleyes:
I was merely questioning on what basis you made the following statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
However the two basic differences between Saddam and Hitler and ricin man were scale and success. He would have done exactly what they did, and more, given time and the right level of success (for want of a better word).
In particular the claim that he would have done exactly what Saddam and Hitler did, as that appears to be a bit of leap to me. Perhaps you can explain to me why that is not a leap?

me283 16-04-2005 15:47
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
indeed



I was merely questioning on what basis you made the following statement:



In particular the claim that he would have done exactly what Saddam and Hitler did, as that appears to be a bit of leap to me. Perhaps you can explain to me why that is not a leap?
Sure. He was making poison, on a reasonable scale; he was planning to make further, more lethal poison, on a larger scale. He planned to release cyanide on the underground. He murdered and wounded rather than give in to arrestation. Oh, and the fact that there was nothing to indicate any quota of dead bodies that he hoped to fulfill.

Now, logic might suggest that he would have carried on regardless. The fact the he murdered whilst being arrested also suggests he would not have given up until he really had to... Or do you have a different logic? Doesn't seem such a huge leap to me, more a natural progression.

cookie_365 16-04-2005 15:54
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Hang on, I think we're arguing at cross purposes.

My point is that killing is just wrong. I accept that there are times when it's, well, not 'right' but tolerable when it's the only way to stop more people being killed, (WWII, Iraq etc, see previous caveats).

But I'm disgusted by the notion of killing someone for fun or for vengeance.

Announcing that someone is 'sub-human' and therefore a suitable target for murder is just sick. Anyone who does that is no better than the person they want to kill. Sub-human perhaps?

Look at Israel/Palestine:

A Palestinian murders an Israeli. Why?
Because an Israeli murdered a Palestinian. Why?
Because a Palestinian murdered an Israeli. Why?
Because an Israeli murdered a Palestinian. Why?
Because a Palestinian murdered an Israeli. Why?
etc etc etc.

danielf 16-04-2005 16:17
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Sure. He was making poison, on a reasonable scale; he was planning to make further, more lethal poison, on a larger scale. He planned to release cyanide on the underground. He murdered and wounded rather than give in to arrestation. Oh, and the fact that there was nothing to indicate any quota of dead bodies that he hoped to fulfill.

Now, logic might suggest that he would have carried on regardless. The fact the he murdered whilst being arrested also suggests he would not have given up until he really had to... Or do you have a different logic? Doesn't seem such a huge leap to me, more a natural progression.
I agree that we don't know how far he would have gone. I think it is a leap however, to assume that because we don't know how far he would have gone, he must have gone as far as Saddam and Hitler did, and then use that as a reason why the death penalty would/should apply. Because, as Cookie says, I do agree that in extreme cases (say Hitler) the death penalty might (regrettably) be justified.

Also, I think it is highly unlikely he would have gone that far, as Hitler and Saddam were far cleverer, in that they chose politics as the tool to satisfy their power-hungry megalomania. Less chance to get caught etc, and largely legal.

Thirdly, I doubt this person was a power-hungry megalomaniac, I think it is more likely he is a religious zelot who was brainwashed by far more dangerous individuals into thinking that killing others is ok.

Mind you, I do think this person should spend the rest of his life in jail, but we don't go around killing people on the basis of what they might have done.

BBKing 16-04-2005 17:48
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Sure. He was making poison, on a reasonable scale;
No he wasn't. It was announced that ricin had been found, but it was a cock up between Porton Down and the Number 10 spin machine - no ricin was found, he hadn't made any. He was cleared of conspiracy to murder (well, the jury couldn't agree). The clarification of the statement is still awaited, as is Colin Powell's apology to the UN.

me283 is, again, grossly ignorant of the facts of the case he's trying to make, which unfortunately isn't surprising if you just read the headlines and listen to the Government. You can see why they want to lock people up without trial or evidence if the trials are going to be this embarrassing and it's so obvious they're framing innocent people.

Quote:
he was planning to make further, more lethal poison, on a larger scale.
With no resources or support and the police already onto him for shoplifting (he was fined £70 and released despite being a known illegal immigrant, and without the immigration service taking a look at him). Damned dangerous. Quite how much poison do you need and how was he going to obtain the ingredients? For that matter how was he going to store it? Or distribute it?

Quote:
He planned to release cyanide on the underground.
Again incorrect - the only evidence for even wanting to make cyanide is a bizarre attempt to make it out of apple seeds - a moment's perusal of the internet will find far better ways of doing it, hell, I made some in school chemistry once. We really must learn the old Intelligence distinction between capabilities and intentions - I might have the intention to buy a remote Caribbean island and run a global evil organisation a la SMERSH from it, but I haven't got the faintest capability of doing it.

Quote:
He murdered and wounded rather than give in to arrestation.
Apart from 'arrestation' not being a word, this is true. He's a brutal murderer, not a terrorist, as I said earlier in the thread. Talking of which:

Quote:
Or would you have spared the likes of Hitler, Pot Pot, Amin, given the chance to pass sentence on them?
I think this is the first mention of Hitler in this thread. I thereby declare that the conditions for Godwin's Law have been met and that this discussion is over, and me283 has lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

danielf 16-04-2005 17:56
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
<snip>



I think this is the first mention of Hitler in this thread. I thereby declare that the conditions for Godwin's Law have been met and that this discussion is over, and me283 has lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly.
Damn! :D :D :D

BBKing 16-04-2005 18:02
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Sometimes you have to take one for the team.

:angel:

Russ 16-04-2005 18:07
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I think this is the first mention of Hitler in this thread. I thereby declare that the conditions for Godwin's Law have been met and that this discussion is over, and me283 has lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
:rofl:

This is the first time you have EVER said anything to amuse me and boy was it worth the wait. Have a greenie :D

me283 16-04-2005 18:26
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
me283 is, again, grossly ignorant of the facts of the case he's trying to make, which unfortunately isn't surprising if you just read the headlines and listen to the Government. You can see why they want to lock people up without trial or evidence if the trials are going to be this embarrassing and it's so obvious they're framing innocent people.
Unfortunately, as neither you nor I were there, and probably neither of us was in court for the trial, we both have to rely upon what is reported. Obviously our sources are different. I'm not sure why you accuse me of being "ignorant of the facts" when we are both leaning towards what we have seen or heard reported. Or were you there?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
Apart from 'arrestation' not being a word, this is true. He's a brutal murderer, not a terrorist, as I said earlier in the thread. Talking of which:
"Arrestation" is a word that I have heard used. I could have used "arresting" in the passive gerundive if you prefer, or if you which to be pedantic?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I think this is the first mention of Hitler in this thread. I thereby declare that the conditions for Godwin's Law have been met and that this discussion is over, and me283 has lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Well, if you are looking for a "win" then good luck to you. I'm on here to discuss and debate, not to score points. But that probably says more about you than it does about me...
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie_365
Hang on, I think we're arguing at cross purposes.

My point is that killing is just wrong. I accept that there are times when it's, well, not 'right' but tolerable when it's the only way to stop more people being killed, (WWII, Iraq etc, see previous caveats).

But I'm disgusted by the notion of killing someone for fun or for vengeance.

Announcing that someone is 'sub-human' and therefore a suitable target for murder is just sick. Anyone who does that is no better than the person they want to kill. Sub-human perhaps?

Look at Israel/Palestine:

A Palestinian murders an Israeli. Why?
Because an Israeli murdered a Palestinian. Why?
Because a Palestinian murdered an Israeli. Why?
Because an Israeli murdered a Palestinian. Why?
Because a Palestinian murdered an Israeli. Why?
etc etc etc.
I don't disagree with you, and the Israeli/Palestinian concept is a very good analogy, but I don't think it quite fits here. What if, for example, you were to say:

Man kills 1000 innocent people and maims 300 more; he goes to court and gets a jail term; 15 years later he gets out and decides to exact revenge by killing as many more as possible... GThe numbers are theoretical, but the concept isn't.

And I oppose vengeance killing with a... vengeance I suppose :) . But I truly believe that the death sentence not only removes the lowest element from society, but also deters others from crossing the line into that element.

ScaredWebWarrior 16-04-2005 18:35
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I think this is the first mention of Hitler in this thread. I thereby declare that the conditions for Godwin's Law have been met and that this discussion is over, and me283 has lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
You guys really ought to check out what's written out there:

Quote:
In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly.
Looks like there are only 'losers'... :)

danielf 16-04-2005 18:39
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior
You guys really ought to check out what's written out there:



Looks like there are only 'losers'... :)
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...3&postcount=73

DOH!!!

ScaredWebWarrior 16-04-2005 18:41
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Indeed. What happens when you pile into the tail of a thread. lol.
It was so funny I just had to post!

the_neurotic_cat 16-04-2005 19:19
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
mmm ... maxine carr in a PVC SS uniform and swastika bedsheets, a webcam and a video chatroom for nun's ... now thats erotic! ... roll on Godwin!

Anyway, back to the topic, I think this chap, mainly because he killed someone should spend a long time in jail. I feel we have a duty to try and rehabilitate him into a productive member of society. although the fact that he's an illegal immigrant colours my view on that ... yes, i'm afraid i'm a little tribal in that i don't feel he's 'one of us'. but thats a different issue.

BBKing 16-04-2005 19:54
Re: Al-Qaeda "poisoner" gets life in prison
 
Quote:
Looks like there are only 'losers'...
Not really - danielf is last man standing. Have a chocolate egg.


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