Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Right, as promised, here is the new election thread. The topic is exactly the same as before. For your reference, the original thread is here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...d.php?p=446975

The poll is fresh but with the same questions and answers as before. Please vote again if you voted in the last one so we can see how opinions are changing as the campaign progresses. :)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Perhaps anyone who has changed their vote from the previous week could post that fact and say what has prompted the change.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Not changed. Still a blue boy.

I do think that people in this country are very naive about polotics (myself inc). I think that what people vote is a quick non-thought process and also probably what their parents voted for !

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

where's the GREEN party? I dont see why they should be bundled with the others!!! I thought the whole idea of this site was to seek unbundling of NTL products (and political parties)?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

In the doldrums? :D

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Sitting in option 4, along with all the other parties that stand a worse-than-zero chance of forming a Government on May 6. :p:
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Nice idea ... although I think some people might like to keep their affiliations or intentions secret, so no pressure. :)

Personally, I have changed. My outrage at the ID cards scheme led me to flirt with the Lib Dems, but in our present electoral system that would be a wasted vote in my constituency. The only chance of unseating the sitting Labour candidate is to vote Tory. So at the moment that's what I'm planning to do.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Not changed my mind.:)


Sad to think though that if Labour get just 29% of the votes cast they will have an overall majority. The Conservatives would need over 41% of the votes cast to achieve this.
article
Boundary reviews (coming soon) or even a change to the electoral system may be needed, not sure if PR is the best option though.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I have similar logic to Mr T... I dont want to risk voting for the green party or any other that has great ideals when it could result in another Labour government. I also want to register my support for the Conservatives ideals - in particular low wasting of dosh on 5 a day co-ordinators etc. They will have 5 years to sack all these moronic lesbian fruit liason co-ordinator type jobs and replace them with cops. They also plan to scrap the regional assemblies plus loads of other stuff - loads of info on teletext.

so I've re-voted Conservatives.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Glad to see the tactical voting is catching on!

If I lived 100m away in the Cambridge constituancy, I would be voting LibDem to try and kick Labour out but as I do not, I will not! ;)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I am not sure if i should vote lib dem as they are the only ones who stand a real chance of winning the seat from the tory. Labour are not going to win what is a relatively safe seat from the torys but the lib dems do...

Another thing, in the last topic a lot of people voted labour but didnt say it in the actual topic...while torys voters did. Are labour people quieter in this election

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

So because they have an extremely low probability of forming a Government a vote for one of these parties is worthless? I disagree, democracy means being able to make a choice based on ones own values and a vote can never be wasted. The parties that you have lumped together actually represent the entire political spectrum and if you really want to get a clearer picture of the ideologies that people are voting for then it would be better to split the options out. Plus you forgot the 'I'm going to spoil my ballot paper' option :p:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I never saw the poll as being about anything so lofty as ideology ... merely a simple opinion poll exercise aimed at getting an idea of what Parliament will look like on May 6. To that end, separating out the minority parties, who between them have little more than a dozen seats of the 650-odd available, would be a little futile.

I don't think a vote for Plaid Cymru or the SNP is wasted - both parties contest seats that are winnable by any of the major three and have enough support to actually win in some constituencies. A seat gained by the SNP, for example, is a seat lost to Labour, Tory or Lib Dem. This fact is not lost on the big three and it helps ensure they bear in mind that Scottish/Welsh issues can't be ignored.

In Northern Ireland, however, it's a different matter. Voting is split broadly along sectarian lines and the only real changes are between the moderate and hard-line versions of unionism or republicanism/nationalism (I've never been entirely sure about the difference between those). The mainstream UK parties don't get a look in, so it's hardly worth their time crying over seats they might have won. If the electorate of Northern Ireland were ever to stop navel-gazing and sending MPs to Westminster on the basis of single-issue protest politics, then things might be different. As it is, if I lived in Belfast I don't think I'd even bother to get out of bed on May 5 for all the difference my vote would make to the UK.

And so to the Greens, UKIP, and others ... well, even the Referendum Party's promised hammering of the Tory vote turned out to matter little in the end once all the votes were cast in 1997. Unless and until our electoral system changes none of these parties stand much chance of winning anything, and with their candidates polling 500 or 1,000 votes at best, they stand little chance of even influencing the policies of the major parties who know that very few seats rest on such a slim majority that 500 votes could have swung it for them.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Don't mind me I'm having a bad day/week/life :D

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

this will cheer you up:-

http://www.natural-law-party.org.uk/...an-General.htm

sadly these people are no longer available to vote for. the days of being able to vote for vogic flyers are long gone.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I clicked "Wont be voting" because im not 18 yet.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

My sister just wanted to access the labour website and she tried this URL:

www.newlabour.co.uk

(Click on it)

:LOL:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

:rolleyes:

Is it owned by the tories then?

Nope, its owned by someone else called robert parker

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

:rofl:

Classic!

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

However...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/p...nd/4436109.stm

When I first read the article I thought was disgusted by what I thought was a dirty underhand trick, then I realised if it had been the other way around I would have been cheering the LidDem candidate on. So instead I'm now disgusted at my own double standards :D

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I found it quite hilarious at the time as my sister is a staunch labour voter and we were having a political argument and she was talking about how bad the tories are, and she wanted to show me the labour website and that poster came up

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

They're doing well at messing up their PR aren't they, this and that guy with photoshop, just shows you how sleazy the Tory's are. Hopefully it'll remind people of the sleaze a day politics we used to have under the conservatives!

*Dons flame proof suit after noting the blueness of the voting on here. :disturbd:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I am guessing a big chunck of that is tactical voting like Towny said.

This forum is hardly overpoweringly right wing is it? Plus if you add up the Labour and Lib Dem vs Conservative, they left weigh outnumber the right.. so don't worry mate, you're safe :)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

???????????? At the time of posting, Labour + Lib Dem = 12..Conservatives=15.

And most 'real' left wing Labourites will tell you that this is one of the most right wing governments in years.:rolleyes:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Look at the last poll, not everyone has voted on this one yet..

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...975#post446975


Labour & Lib Dems: 14 + 22 = 36
Conservative & UKIP: 24 + (less than 6) = 24 - 30

Bearing in mind there will be some Lib Dems in there voting Tory tactically which skews the picture somewhat.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Yes but that works on the assumption that Labour are left wing, which they most definately are not.;)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I remember things like the miners strike, the defacement and debasment of the NHS, the privitasation of our national utilities, the poll tax oh and of course Margaret Thatcher.

I could never VOTE conservative because of that. I am appalled by the antics of the immigration debate played by Mr Howard and I am very scared that if he got in I, personally, would be FAR worse off and underneath the povery line again than I am now.

That is because of the Tory policy on people who are sick. I am ill, I can't work and I don't want to have to prove that I am ill every year and end up going for medicals where I could be having a VERY good day and therefore loose the money I do get.

That aside their economics are questionable, I can't see where we can make £36bn in savings without spreading the dole queue.

Anyway, LIberal democrats for me at the moment.

Sian

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Growing up during the 80's and 90's it aways astonished me how the Tories kept winning despite the fact that they seemed so unpopular. Nobody I ever spoke to would admit to voting Tory. Now the situation is reversed I understand of course. :)


I will be voting Labour. The Tories have caused great damage to the Country which is going to take decades to erase if it can be at all. They instilled an attitude in a whole generation that greed and lack of compassion is ok.

Labour is the only party which is fit to govern at the present time. The Tories are still stuck in the 20th century, is Howard really the best they can come up with. As for the Lib Dems, they can promise the earth because they know they will not be forming the next government and with no one in their party with any experience of running the country are too high a risk.

Sean.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Absolute tosh!! thats like saying "im going to bet on a 3 legged horse in the Grand National" and then when it comes last saying "It wasnt a waste of a bet".

Ok i agree you "could" have won but then again the sun "could" extinguish itself today
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Yes they have but then again Labour are still doing it (Immigrations, Pensions etc). At the end of the day all parties are unable to manage finances and they dont really understand the impacts of any of their decisions. Most decisions are based on guess work and statistics.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I've changed my vote from LD to "Scot/Welsh/Irish/Green/UKIP/Other" .. nothing to do with any specific election campaign, I just clicked the wrong option last time.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I dont understand why the torys are bring tax into the election when they had the poll tax, they had black wednesday and so on and so on. However labour choose not to bring this up so much. I would put posters everywhere showing the history.

Put howard and poll tax in big letters. If they keep doing it should imprint it in peoples minds.

Intrestingly a lot of people have been saying about what happened last time and the real winners in the election look like being the lib dems!

In my seat its safe tory so i may vote lib dem as labour are not going to make gains in this election

Just went to labours site, they are going to remind people of the past record

http://www.labour.org.uk/uploads/tx_...member_MED.jpg

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Originally Posted by slug
The Tories have caused great damage to the Country which is going to take decades to erase if it can be at all.

Immigration is not an issue, don't believe everything you read in The Daily Mail ;) and I think you will find the pension cock up started under the Tories.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The problem with labours election chances is simply blair. If brown was leader there would not be a big problem. Most people trust labour more than torys on health, education, tax and so on. Torys have a lead on crime and immigration. However labours advantage doesnt show in the polls which could be down to a number of things although i think that the polls do not show labours real suppport

1) There are people who say lib dem as they really annnoyed at labour but when it comes to 5th may they will vote labour to avoid a tory victory

2) Some people are simply ashamed to say they will vote labour

3) A lot of current 'swing' votes are likely to vote labour, they voted them last time but this time are unsure. But will decide against the torys.

Labours election campain has been awful so far. Hopefully they will do well in the remaining weeks now that there manfisto is published.

Unemployment has gone up 25,000 in the last few months although i still think its one of the lowest in history

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Think yourself lucky you didn't grow up in the 60's and 70's under a Labour government, with miners strikes, rail strikes, dockers strikes, car workers strikes,etc, etc. Such bad financial management that the government had to go to the IMF for a massive loan, the IMF then effectively told Labour how to manage the economy for a couple of years. VAT at 25%, the highest level that it has ever been, was under a Labour government.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Fair comment, we could go way back in histrory, we all remember the window tax :) . But I am talking about recent history. The recent history of the Tory Party in government shows they can not be trusted until they change their ways.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

And a few years on, another Labour government, and we get... rail strikes, underground strikes, firemen strikes...

Anyone see a pattern? ;)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

History is history, you cannot pick and chose to suit your argument, you mention not knowing anyone who admitted to voting tory, well more people did than voted for Labour, but due to Scottish/Welsh seats and the boundary changes, more votes does not always mean more seats. Now if we had an English Parliament :cool:
Labour will stay in power with only 29% of the votes cast, the Tories would need 41% or more to do the same.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The difference is that howard & the party was invloved with the previous goverment.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

And what is wrong with that, I though Majors government was a good one. It was they (and Thatcher) that had to go through some very hard times sorting out the econmical shambles that Labour got us into.

Just as they got the economy back on its feet, they were voted out. Labour have ridden on the wave of the Torys successful economic policies throughout their adminstration.

Whe you look at the money that Brown has had, and spent, you'll see that we have not exactly got value for money.

The economy will always be safer with a Tory government.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Black wednesday, 15% intrest rates, Poll tax

These where acts of the tory goverment werent they

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Winter of discontent, 90% top rate of income tax, 25% VAT.

These were the acts of a Labour Government weren't they.

We can bang on forever about history. Past actions are not necessarily an indication of the future. And in another thread I think I'd like to put some context around the rather bald statements you're making. :)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Does anybody know why the yougov polls put Labour and Tory much closer together than other polls,

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Polls are here, if anyone wants to look at them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2...ml/default.stm

I would guess it's something to do with the fact they poll on the internet. Exactly why the internet would make a difference, I don't know, but they are the only ones that do it that way.

Possible reasons:
1. The Tories are still the 'nasty party' and admitting you are going to vote for them is embarrassing ... but not so if you do so on the internet (just look at how well the Tories do in our own polls here!).
2. Restricting the sample to internet users is inherently flawed as the internet does not equally penetrate all corners of British society.

The real reason could be either, both or neither of the above, of course.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

sure :tu:

MORI only polls people certain to vote for that party. The others are swing voters, may not vote, etc etc. The polls are not really that trusted anyway
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The internet generally has a richer, more middle class type of user. It also has less of the poorer classes. So that could have something to do with it

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

That was then though, now they have the economy on an even keel. I feel so sorry for all of those people that have mortgages, if the Tory's get in I can see so many repossessions when people are put out of work and interest rates go up. :(

Especially all those Michael want to sack from the public services (as waste) can't see them keeping up with their repayments.

I take it you weren't brought up in house where your father couldn't get a job for 8 years and then when he did it wasn't enough to pay the mortgage, even with my mother working nights. If you want to go back there then thats great but please don't drag the rest of us there.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Wasn't black wednesday and all the problems related to it due to our attempts to enter the ERM? ie getting us ready to join the euro....

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

yeah the ERM was a policitally motivated economic policy rather than a practical one - a Major balls up.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Quite a large swing from Lib Dems on the poll I see

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Isn't this a little like claiming it was inevitable that post 1997, we would return to strikes, high direct tax and VAT rates and a clutch of inefficient, overmanned, nationalised industries?

With the benefit of hindsight it's clear to see that Labour since about 1995 is not the same thing as Labour in the late 1970s. Thank God.

Given that past performance is no guarantee of future performance, I really can't see what evidence you are basing your post on. Clearly you and you family suffered a lot during Thatcher's economic reforms, but being personally hurt by a political party's past actions is not in itself evidence that they are going to do the same again.

In fact, I think it's simplistic to point the finger at the Tories for the hardship your family went through. It's a bit like accusing the doctor that administers your chemotherapy of making your hair fall out. I don't mean in any way to belittle what was obviously a nightmare for you and I can't claim to understand what it was like because my own family didn't suffer in that way. But, I think the painful remedy for the disfunctional state of our economy was necessary because of outrageous, untried social experimentation on the part of previous Labour governments and the failure of previous Conservative governments to deal with it decisively while in power.

Labour has clearly left those days behind it, and I am confident that the Tories are not about to cause unemployment and high interest rates again because the economy does not require the kind of radical amputation surgery that caused so much heartache last time. Labour has not got the economy back on an even keel. You will find it extremely difficult to find any economist who does not subscribe to the consensus that it was Tory policies that got the economy back on an even keel as a result of two decades of structural reform which Labour has reaped the benefit of by not trying to unpick that reform.
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It's a classic poll pattern. A lot of people think the Lib Dems talk a lot of sense, but as polling say draws closer, they start to consider how their vote might actually be put to best use. The Lib Dems stand no chance of winning in my constituency, so I switched my vote from them to Tory. They used to hold this seat and were in second place in 2001.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

It is sad but under the current FPTP system the LibDems will only do well in certain constituencies and only then as a protest vote against the ruling party.

Smaller paries such as UKIP stand no chance of getting any MPs and I do wonder why they bother putting up candidates rather than trying to steer the vote towards their best interests - all they really end up doing is splitting the Conservative vote and increasing the chance of Labour winning, which is ironinc as they share much more common ground with the Conservatives than Labour!

Under a PR system like the European elections (although even that is not perfect*) UKIP and the LibDems get a far larger number of MEPs elected.

* The system is still bad as you can only vote for a party and not individual candidates. I much prefer the student union RON system where only one person gets elected if they have a majority vote. Here you vote for your first, second, etc. choices. The candidate with the least votes is eliminated and all the people who voted for them have their second choices added to the total. This continues until one candidate has a majority vote.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

As this poll is being rerun on a weekly basis to see if there is any movement in voting intention could the results for previous week be incorporated into the votting options? ie Labour (22.45%, 53.67%, 99.4%)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

A good idea, I'll do it now. :)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...&obj_id=121755

This is meant to be the first 'american' style attack ad in UK politics. It is basically a unrelenting attack on blair and the fact in is not that popular anymore. Labour are now going to hit back although it will be a bit more based on what the torys did whiile they were in goverment, but it is still an nasty ad.

Will these type of ads work? Do we need them? Are you more likely or less likely to vote tory because of this ad?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

One would expect a more mature approach from the Tories, silly, no discussion of the issues, this may well be counter productive for the Tories.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

What? And New Labour's stock-in-trade, spin and publicity stunts, is discussion of the issues? I think you might need to remove those rose-tinted spectacles!
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The Tories' new cinema ad is available here:

mms://wms4.streamhoster.com/conservatives/cinema.wmv

(Broadband, streams with Windows Media Player).

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The issues from both sides havent really been talked about correctly, I was mainly talking about the increasingly american ways of doing things in a election....

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

As I said in the previous thread really, my tactics are simple labour must be removed. What they have done to students is disgracefull and I will not stand for it. I do also ditest what the current gov' do to opposition areas that they know they dont stand a snow balls chance in hell of winning.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The torys want to charge intrest rates on student loans :Yikes:. If you dont get a job right after UNI god knows how bad it could get

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The Decapitation Strategy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...459097,00.html


Oh, if only it happened. I'd love it if Labour voters tactically voted Lib Dem & Howard et al lost their seats!

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Howards a gonna if he loses the election. But letwin and davis will would hit the torys bad. It would cause problems for the leadership battle. Anyway torys wont be defending many seats. Hopefully labour havent put too much resouces in these seats to allow a higher lib dem vote

What happens if a party wins the election but its leader loses his seat?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Then the party has to find a new leader, and quickly!

It is highly unlikely to happen though. Let's not forget that the majorities Howard et al have were gained at a time the Tories were at low ebb. There will be a significant swing to them this time and I think we will see majorities increasing in all traditional Tory seats. Bear in mind that the Lib Dems took a lot of seats from Tories in 1997 when disaffected Tory voters went liberal because they couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour under any circumstances. I think the Lib Dems are the ones at risk of having egg on their faces this time round.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I laugh if Labour got re-elected but Blair lost his seat! :LOL:
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Labour already charge interest on student loans - my wife works for the NHS and her yearly interest is greater than the amount she repays through work!

The Conservatives want to scrap student fees and top-up fees and replace them with the old system of grants and optional student loans. When I went to uni this was the system and I did not need a loan as I could afford to live on what I earned over each summer. A couple of years later and my wife had no choice but to get a loan. :mad:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

But there's interest charged on student loans now :confused: (or at least mine has been going up ever since I took them out).

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

yeah, is linked to inflation i believe.... so it's lower than bank and shark loan rates, but there is definitely interest to be paid....

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I believe it gets adjusted once a year and is currently around 3.1%

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Yeah, I mean that want to charge commerical intrest on loans. In other words it would be same as a normal loan

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Knowing what the interest rate is before you take the loan out that you need to eat with would be nice. When I started they insisted that the interest was negligable and nothing to worry about, its since jumped from 1.5% to over 3% and well on what will be £12 borrowed i'll be owing over £13k the day i graduate just grand.
And oh if fee's went and grants came back that would be an extra £2k + a year in my pocket that i wouldnt have to take out on loan. If it was like that when i started my debt would be £4k not £12k for me seeing the same amount of money.
I'll give labour one thing they are creative at screwing you over for your money

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

That would be a nasty shock for all students, if it's true. Where did you read it? Do you have a link?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...es/4329107.stm

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Congratulations, if you carry on half-quoting your opponents like that, you could be an MP before you're 30. :dozey: ;)

So they're not merely upping interest, as you first suggested - they are offsetting that increase by removing tuition fees. Whether that makes this a cost-neutral policy or not, I don't know. But it is clearly less costly than you wanted us to think. :nono: :D Tsk!

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

From the Conservative Manifesto:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

...and suddenly it doesn't sound nearly so bad.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

According to the manifesto it will save students half their debt because they can get student loans instead of credit card debt as well as abolishing tuition fees.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The real cost of uni is the price of living, I am going to uni this year and i can afford the UNI fee (i'll admit that it will go up next year though). But its £3000 for living there THEN the price of equipment THEN the day to day living costs. I am not sure that scrapping the fee will completly off-set the cost. Especially how big the loans are. After all the fees went up for a reason so where is the money coming from?

The real question is if the intrest will start working from the day you take out your loan. If it does then how high can it get but the time you can start working? Or will it frezze until you start working?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I imagine it's going to come from their 'wastage' savings.

Anyone else see Question Time last night? I just loved it when the old geezer in the audience cited a job advert in the Guardian this week, London Ambulance recruiting a 'Diversity Officer' to earn £40k. :grind:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Every goverment say they can save money of wastege during an election. I was even watching the first yes minister the other day and the first action was 'to cut wastage'. There may be a bit of wastage (also just because the adverts in the guardian dont contain police, doctors, nurses doesnt mean they are all non jobs).

I am not sure but much money can really be saved on wastage? There may be a way to fund there education savings but something would have to give. Less students or less investment unless the loans are enough to fund the whole thing.

How much is a commerical intrest rate?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I beg to differ. In my book, 'Diversity Officer' is a non-job. Ensuring 'diversity' (whatever the hell that means) is something that can be tasked to every single employee of the organisation and supervised by existing HR staff, much as it would be in any commercial organisation where we don't have the luxury of hiring people to fulfil ideologically-driven delusions of grandeur.

The IFS has confirmed that the Tories can save what they say they can, if they can remove as much waste as they say they can. I think getting rid of the 'Diversity Officers' should see them on the way to saving a billion or so, and then let's see what else can go. I reckon they can do it.

Bank of England Base Rate is 4.75% and a reasonably good mortgage deal would be about 5.75%. Unsecured personal loans start from maybe 8% and credit cards can be anything from 10% to 25%. I would understand a 'low commercial rate' to be perhaps 7%.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

That does sound like a non-job. I said they are not all non-jobs. That example is only one of the jobs advertised.

Ok lets work on 7%. Also a student debt of £10,000 (Accomidation is around £2,500 a year x 3 (at least for me) = 7,500 and lets say 2,500 for other living costs over the 3 years (food, drink, clothes) ). Thats £10,000

So how much would a £10,000 loan cost? Take in mind the loans are taking out over the 3 years instead of the whole wack at once. Also £10,000 is without the fees (i dont know if they are simpply scrapping top up fees or all of them)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

A £10,000 loan with annual interest of 7% generates £700 in interest payments per year, or a little over £58 per month. The actual monthly repayment depends on how many years the loan is repayable over. If we say 10 years, then you also pay back £1,000 of the capital per year, or a little over £83 per month, so the total monthly repayment is a little under £141 per month.

That is, if I've remembered how to do those calculations properly ...

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Well....considering I am not very good at maths :dunce: I'll trust ya :D

So if the intrest is 7% and theres a loan of £10,000 (which is quite a low loan). It would depend on when you pay it back weither your better off or not and the actual size of the loan. Basically if you live at home and dont pay for living, youre away :tu: If you stay at the UNI then you could be worse off :td:. If you get a resonible job upon leaving Uni you would be alright. But what is they want to stay to take there degree on a bit? Or they dont get a job right away? Doesnt this system hasten up the need to start earning :confused:

Its all very confusing :erm:. As for if the sums add up and if they can afford it i think we should forget trying to understand any of the partys spending plans.

I mean 1) Even genius economists are arguing about it, 2) The economy can change anyway! 3) If the spending wrong, then all the manifestos are rubbish

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Student loans aren't like normal loans.

You only pay them back if your earnings are above a threshold limit. Its £10,000 atm. Above that, you pay a percentage based on your salary, so if you don't earn, you don't pay. Yup can protract it out as long you like (or can afford to).

Given how the student loans system is nice and fluffy anyway, I wouldn't mind so much an increase from 3% to 7%, if the government would spend the money properly.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

It could be intended as a disincentive to those who think they can avoid ever paying the loan off by remaining below the repayment threshold?

To be honest, you have to try really, really hard to avoid getting a job if you leave University with a half-decent degree in a worthwhile subject.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

If we assume that somebody has a £10,000 student loan and they get paid the average graduate salary of around £20,000 . This means that they will be paying £450 a year off the loan. So if the interest rate is around 7% (i.e. £700 per year) the loan will grow and they will never have to pay it off! ;)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

But in 10 years time, the guy will be earning a bit more than £20k. With inflation he'll be earning a lot more, even if he never gets a proper payrise or promotion. Most people will at some point get promoted on and higher, I would have thought.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

The loan system depends on 1) How much you take out 2) When you get a job 3) How quickly you pay it back

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Another serious issue which is also close to my heart is the cost of putting old folk into homes. I read in the sun that the conservative manifesto policy is to limit paying to 3 years - ie. after paying 3 years of fees all care will be free.

My opinion on student loans is that it's isnt morally right to add interest that's more than inflation.


"...we will give this guarantee - if you pay for the first 3 years of long term care out of your own resources then a conservative government will pay for the remainder of your care without any means test..."

http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do...y.listing.page

in the action for older people section page 8.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

My opinion on student loans is that it is very difficult to use the word 'moral' in this area!

When I was at University in the early 90s, loans had just begun to appear as a top-up to the Grant and the continuous bleating from the Student Union was 'education is a right, not a privilege'.

Actually, I think it is both, and a loans system of some kind acknowledges both. Yes, it's a right, and our system increasingly ensures that everyone who wants to go to university, and is academically able to go, can do so. However that level of investment in the betterment of an individual confers on that individual privilieges that others do not have (the State has spent £1,000s more on me than it did on one of my classmates, who left school at 18 and went and got a job and started paying taxes). It's not unreasonable for the State to set limits to that privilege and to expect something in return for its investment.

We are no longer in a situation where only 5-10% of school leavers go to Uni. When that was the case the Grant system was eminently affordable. Now we are heading for 50% of school leavers going to Uni (many of them to study worthless qualifications at dubious 'universities', in yet another piece of flawed Labour social levelling) and we have the hugely increased costs that are associated with it.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Do you buy into the arguement that people should not pay for anothers education then? (Your friend who left school and payed taxs?)

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I believe that a student should not have to pay for their education but that the state should not subsidise their living (or non-student's living for that matter).

That was the case when I went to uni. I got no grant but I did not have to pay any tuition fees, either. I had to pay for my own rent and food, etc. but working for 3 months each summer easily covered that. I had the option of taking out a student loan but I did not need to.

The current situation forces students to take out a loan just to pay for their tuition fees. I would argue that is morally wrong.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Nope, quite the opposite in fact. I'm demonstrating that our system works in such a way that not everyone gets an equal pay-out from the State. I think those who get more do have more of a responsibility in return, but I don't think that extends to everybody paying for what they use. If that were the case then seriously ill people who cost the NHS tens of thousands would have to pay more NI than someone who has a healthy life, which is a bit daft.

I support the idea of a welfare State in which everybody helps everybody else out. But I don't believe in a limitless welfare state.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

You start paying interest on your student loan from day 1, but you dont know how much it is until a year later when they kindly send you a statement saying you owe us so much 'but its ok you dont have to pay us yet but we will keep on adding interest on it at an ever increasing rate'.

Personally i'd prefer to have a £4000 total loan charged at 7% interest than a £12000 total loan charged at 3%.

They may sound nice in that you dont have to pay it if you cant afford it and all that. But they will add a nice tidy sum on top of it for you. I'm not going to do a phd because I will have 3 years worth of interest added to my loan (around a further thousand, just think what you could do with a grand!)

Edit - Oh I have noticed the big picture plan from the governement regarding education, get as many people into university as you can by lull'ing them into a false sense of security and once there nice and settled jack the cost up!

Just as a random statistic, for the department i'm in, from its annual budget 20% of its annual income comes from the governement, 10% from student tution fees, the other 70% from r&d and consultancy work

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

£4000 is a very cheap loan.

Anyhoo, how do you think the goverment should pay for education at University?
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The immigration issue comes up again, is there anything else to talk about in the election?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...p?story=629895

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

I still won't be voting - would take a major change in UK politics for that to happen.

Student loans...

I took out around £4100 each year for three years, and about £2000 (I think) for my placement year, plus an overdraft of £1800 and top up hardship loans of £300 for two of the years I was at Uni, plus the £1000 my parents lent me, comes to about £17,000 of debt.

When I applied for a student loan, I had a tough time proving that I was independant of my parents - without independant status, I wouldn't have been able to go to Uni. The application process is hard, and the hardship loan criteria even tougher.

I've not started paying back any of my debt other than the overdraft, which the bank reduces each year. It's currently at £1250. The student loan repayment threshold has been increased to £15,000 , which means I won't be paying it back any time soon.

I'd like to see the student loan scrapped, but the problem is that the Government intends everyone, chavs and all, to have a degree, which ironically means that degrees will become worthless within the next decade and the earning potential of people with degrees will be much lower (thus less likely to pay off the loan). If you scrap the loan and replace it with a grant, it will just encourage the chavs et al, who should never go near a University let alone study at one, to apply to University.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

So do us all a favour and help vote out a Party whose instinct is to perform social levelling by reducing everyone and everything to the lowest common denominator!

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Do you think that the government could afford to give you £17,000 as a grant? And everyone else?

I had to get a student loan like everyone else. I'll pay it back eventually. The government subsiseds part of my University education, but it can't pay for it all.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Can someone check the IP of that post as I think someones's hacked Towny's account. Can't think he'd hit that far below the belt! :erm:

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

This is quite simple. University is expensive. Education should have the most moneuy spent on it but theres no way a party can scrap fees and keep education at the same level with the same students.

The debate is not on if student fees should exist, they have too. Labour would not put top fees for kicks, it loses them votes. The issue is if the uni fees are paid though higher loan rates, top up fees, or taxs.
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and instead vote in a party which appeals to the lowest common denominator? The torys have been attacking immigration hard over this election. With labour polling better on health and education the torys have been making immgration and waste at the heart of there election. I have not seen the facts on waste so cant comment.

Do you really think these comments are based on a big problem? Or are they playing on fear and hate? By the way, my mums techincally a immigrant (french). But its not her people have a problem with, no one cares about Irish, french, german, and american immigrants. When people think of immgration they think of middle-easten/arab/easten european people. Why is that?

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

By voting them out I have to vote a party in - there aren't any I would choose. Forget the campaigns - that's all ********. Always has been, always will be. Empty promises. Look at history - at what each party has done over the years. Then vote. That's why I won't be voting. Thatcher wrecked the country - wrecked my life by introducing s28, which is still enforced today. Lib Dems - can't recall anything they've ever done, but they've never had power in my lifetime.

Yes. What do you do when you leave University? You work - i.e. you contribute to the economy and the growth of the country, and you pay taxes. For around forty years.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

What is s28? Is that the ban on teaching about homosexuals in classrooms? Sorry, I am not sure what s28 is?
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The best reason for tax payers to fund uni fees is that they will hellp the country. A more educated workforce is better for business in this country and eventually the marketplace may require more and more workers of this level. Also in a more direct way University educated students help, doctors, enginners, designers, and alll the other jobs that are behind day to day living that go unnoticed. Goverment jobs, tech, protection etc etc.

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Basically it bans teachers from talking about homosexuality in class unless they are asked. (coggy my correct me but thats my understanding)

If Tony gets in again, there'll be a letter on his desk from me asking about the repealing of that law next (political)term! :disturbd:
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al la : http://www.galha.org/glh/section28.html

Re: Vote 2005, week 2, new poll!
 

Yeah, but that goes towards everything else. With all that money, they still barely give us anything with decent public services.