Heard it all now !!!!
 

Suicidal inmate loses razors case
A prisoner on suicide watch has failed in a High Court bid for the right to be given razors to cut himself.

Jeffrey Watkins, an inmate at Rye Hill prison at Onley, Warwickshire, wanted to self-harm to relieve the stresses that could lead to him killing himself.

A judge ruled that the suggestion that he should be provided with the means to self-harm "flies in the face of what we regard as civilised standards".

Watkins made previous serious attempts to commit suicide, the court was told.

It is offensive to the individual, it is offensive to the (prison) staff and to the Prison Service and it flies in the face of what we regard as civilised standards

His counsel Flo Krause said Watkins, who is serving a life sentence, suffered from bipolar disorder, or manic depression, and had been a persistent self-harmer for many years.

Medical experts agreed that cutting himself "lifts his mood" by releasing endorphins into his system, thereby making suicide less likely.

Ms Krause said the Prison Service policy on self-harm and suicide was so "intrusive" that it was increasing stress and adding to the danger that Watkins would commit suicide.

She argued that he simply wanted sterile razor blades "to self-harm in a hygienic manner."

The judge rejected Watkins's bid for less supervision and to be left in the dark at night.

He said: "It is offensive to the individual, it is offensive to the (prison) staff and to the Prison Service and it flies in the face of what we regard as civilised standards".

Refusing Watkins permission to seek judicial review, the judge said his "stark and sad" case was "unarguable".



I can't even begin to imagine how much this would have cost to go to court, what a waste of taxpayers money and court time :rolleyes:

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Jeffrey Slasher Watkins. Thats his full name from what I've been told;) Years ago he used to work for Bic and Wilkingson Sword:D Guilette did reject him though:erm:

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omfg............You are right with the thread title there Marge! :rofl: :D
Is that guy a wind up merchant? :D

Oh fu*k off! :dozey:

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why cant they just give him the razors, lock him in a room for 24 hours and hope he's drowned in his own blood the next time they look. After all he ASKED for them

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I think the sadder problem here is that his person wants to cut himself with razors to help him stop killing himself :( Needs professional help. There is a problem with self-harm in this country
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The court case was a joke though :rolleyes:
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Wy dont we just bulid Suicide booths on every street

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I agree. One less to bother about.

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Here we go again! Around around we go, where it stops no-body knows. Whahahaha

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Damien,

you are quite right. Self harm is an increasing phenomenon - and there's not enough help out there.

Those who say "one less". Shutup.

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I fell sorry for the guy. It looks like the court stabbed him in the back:D

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pass me a razor :rolleyes:

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I hope you never need help for psychogical problem and get treated by someone with the same level of sympathy.

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Whilst I'll stay neutral on the subject of self-harm, what a complete waste of time and money in bringing this silly case to court. I wonder how long it will take for 'human rights' to be brought in to it :rolleyes:

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suicide watch is one of the oddest ideas in the world. every four hours, night and day, people enter the prisoner's cell to make sure they aren't trying to kill themselves. if they are asleep, they get woken up and checked over... quite harsh really! :Yikes:

self-harm and depression are very real problems that many people spend their lives struggling with - problems that are often very difficult to treat. i don't agree that they should be left to hurt themselves, as some have suggested here, nor should they be left to commit suicide. depressed people are very good at making themselves depressed, and it is likely that this failure to get what he wants will result in the prisoner in question becoming more desperate, and feel worse than ever.

P

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Um where did you get the idea that prison staff or any other fro that matter INVADE a persons privacy, unless they are doing themselves harm ?? The cell doors are genereally locked at night in a prison so you just get a flap to look through. The staff are NOT ALLOWED in unles they can see eveidence of self harm. THey most definetly don't wake them up !!

Same as in hospital. A suicidal pateinet nees care not confronting his behavour.

I agree that people with self harm., low self esteem and various other conditions including depression need help. At the HOme Office they have now brought in skilled psychologists, counsellors and a host of other qualified people to aid with reduction in suicide in prsons. We are stil waiting for funding in the NHS.

Sian

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so they don't do that? ah well, my mistake, lol! funnily enough, I actually heard it from a trainee psychologist working in a prison; come to think of it, we were all pretty drunk at the time, so I guess I have mis-remembered it, or she was exaggerating :)

having more trained people to help is definitely a good thing - it doesn't help though that it's so so so difficult to get into mental health work that only a tiny fraction of those who would like to do it actually end up doing it. those who do manage to succeed, are truly impressive individuals in their own right :D

P

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On a different tack............(thought I'd throw this one in)...........by keeping suicidal depressives alive (protecting them from themselves) aren't we screwing up the gene pool by allowing such people to live and probably procreate? Shouldn't we be be allowing natural selection to run it's course? :confused:

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Suicide is hereditary???

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Genetically speaking, Is a hormonal imbalance much worse a condition than say a bad back?

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But I bet this case was brought under Human Rights legislation. :mad:

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I say, give the moron a bloody great big knife and a day or two of quiet, quality time on his own. I bet after 48 hours he'll have removed himself from the gene-pool.

And I cant say I'd miss him. Waste of taxpayers money, and free oxygen. :rolleyes:

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I have not heard of it being passed on by a pre-natal successfully suicidal mother, although I imagine a terminally absent father could be construed as being genetically disposed to influencing any later demise.

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You mean "human rights"? I wouldn't bet against it. What a pathetic waste of time this case was, and I will lay odds that it was brought about with Legal Aid. The guy wants to cut himself... if he was given blades and DID harm himself, or even manage suicide, you can bet a case would be brought against the authorities for allowing him to do it. But he is still allowed to go to court to bring this case anyway?

This is another exmaple of how the country is going to s**t.

Oh, and for the bleeding hearts out there who say we should sympathise with his "illness"... fine, give him medication, that's what we have a Health Service for. Don't waste taxpayers' money on a ludicrous court case.

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Look this is someone's life we're talking about here. Someone with mental health issues. Yes, an illness (that's illness without the annoying, sytupid quote marks). The fact that some people think this guy's life is worth nothing because he has psychological problems disgusts me. Once more you should be ashamed.

You may disagree with this case being brough to court - fine - but can we keep posts on the right side of decency when talking about a life.

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And what exactly is on the "wrong" side of "decency"? Apart from the fact that taxpayers' money has been wasted on such a case... that's the most obscene thing of all.

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Wishing someone who is ill to be dead is, in my book at least, the wrong side of decency. Self harm is widespread and increasing - I suggest posters think before putting up such indecent and insensitive views.

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Sure, I agree with that. I thought you were pointing at me... but as you can see I've said no such thing.

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I was pointing at a few. But I did take issue with your placing illness in inverted commas, implying that this is not a serious health issue.

One point that hasn't been picked up is that this bloke says he wanted razors for self harming to prevent him killing himself. That might sound odd to some, but that's the nature of self harming. The other question I would raise viz this coming to court is why this bloke does not appear to be getting the treatment and help he needs. I could mischievously argue that those hang-em-and-flog-em folk out there might want to think on - had this guy received proper help in prison think of the taxpayers money saved on this case!

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I agree with andyl here, I think the comments have got out of hand. I wonder what is worse - someone who is ill succumbing to that illness and wasting some money because of it - or people who are not ill saying that person should die. there are more important things in this world than money, although it doesn't seem like many have noticed that.

P

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Andy, the implication is in your perception.

But one thing confuses me in your post: the guy is obviously mentally/psychologically ill; in that case, how can it be safe to let him decide the level of his self-harming? Anyone who has handled a razor blade knows they can slice through flesh. If a sane person can accidentally cut themself, then a person attempting to do so can just as easily cut themself worse than anticipated. And who foots the bill for the resulting treatment?

Maybe he is getting treatment, I don't think that was mentioned in the article. It would seem odd that he has access to a solicitor, but possibly no access to a doctor?

Maybe he shouldn't be hung... but the people who allowed the case to come to court should be!

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Why the quote marks?

Hard to say but the Prison Service's provision of welfare has in the past been found lacking. I find it hard to believe that this case would have come to court had appropriate treatment been available. One has to wonder if prison is indeed the right place for him.

Just maybe?

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Methinks you are a) splitting hairs here (with or without a razor blade) and/or b) looking to blame the authorities (for a change?).

Here's another few maybes: maybe, just maybe, the guy is in the right place, maybe with good care (maybe even better than that afforded to non-criminals), and maybe he just saw a way to grab attention by employing a lawyer who maybe should have refused to handle the case?

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Me283, why the quote marks.

I suggest you do some research into self harm.

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Quote marks because I personally don't know if it is an illness, do you? Is it an illness, or a condition? Is it a reaction to existing medication? Jeez, it could be many things... it could even have religious grounding. So Andy, which is it?

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So are you just lazy or do you not want to challenge your own perceptions and prejudices, or learn about a condition upon which you are happy to comment. I suggest you download the Google toolbar and use it.

In the meantime:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/178/1/48
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/press/preleases/pr/pr_312.htm
http://www.nshn.co.uk/facts.html

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So are you lazy, or are you avoiding the question? Is it an illness, a condition, a result of medication...

I really can't be ar*ed to look up about everything that happens in the world. The guy has a problem: we have doctors for that, not courts and razor blades.

Now, will you answer my question, or avoid it? (Memories flooding back of your previous avoidance...):zzz:

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Me283, I've put you on ignore cos there's is absolutely no point in debating with someone who can't even be @rsed to research when provided the links to do so. I hope you are very happy in your nasty and uninformed world.

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I'll take that as a "no" then.

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Chris, I appreciate your considered input on many threads (youy can sense that 'however' coming now can't you) however (there it is!) the reason I challenged on the quote marks was precisely because the attitudes being promoted on this thread were highly dismissive of a serious problem. So from my perspective at least, this was on topic. Happy to let it drop now as I hope I have made my point.

I would also argue that being chastised for picking up on this issue when others have been wishing a bloke dead is, er, a bit peculiar ;)

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Well said Chris!

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Self-harm has nothing to do with suicide, and by preventing him from self-harming with sterile blades, the courts have made it more likely that his wounds will become infected, and more likely that he will commit suicide. The guy is in the wrong place to help him understand his self-harming. That said, there are very few right places - treatment and understanding of self-harming is very poor.

I don't find his request funny or a waste of money. If you do have a right to life, then you have a right to the thing that sustains that life - your body - and by extension, you have a right to die. For me, it's simple and clear. We complicate the issue because of fear and misguided compassion.

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I think the "right to die" issue is extremely complex, much more so than the matter under discussion.

As for whether or not to let him have razor blades, it would be a very brave person to do so and believe that a mentally unstable person would be able to self-harm and not endanger his life. That's in my opinion of course, which some people believe is not worthy of hearing.

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Self-harmers are not mentally unstable. I'm not entirely certain who would be classed as mentally unstabled. Self-harmers are "mis-wired" for want of a better explanation - they cope with the things you and me cope with by harming themselves.

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Which doesn't exactly make them "mentally stable"? Sure, the level of instability is debatable, but you surely aren't saying that they are mentally sound?

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Erm ... I think you're juggling semantics just a little there GC. Survival is the most basic instinct of all life, so any mis-wiring of the brain that compromises that basic instinct is reasonably described as an instability in my view.

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Maybe instead of actively encouraging him to self harm (which the Prison service would be by allowing him sterile blades), somebody should look at why he is self harming?

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My definition of "mentally unstable" probably differs from most :) Self-harming doesn't compromise the self-preservation instinct. As I said a few posts back - it has nothing to do with suicide.


You can't encourage someone to self-harm. I agree that he should be helped, but as I said a few posts back - support and understanding of self-harming is poor. Even by mental health standards. Prison isn't the right place for a start.

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So would you agree that "mentally stable/unstable" is subjective?

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Sorry, I phrased it badly. I was thinking that the state giving somebody who wants to self harm would appear to be encouraging him. In much the same way as giving somebody who is suicidal a knife. Note, I am not comparing suicide to self harm.

I actually agree with you. I can't comment on the motives of a self harmer, because the only "experience" I have of them is through television (which may or may not be accurate). But as I understand it, the act itself only provides a temporary release. It doesn't provide a cure.

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Putting the mentally ill in prison reminds me of the debtor prisons in the 19th century. once they're in there the reasons for thier offending are simply agitated. life in prison can easily cause 'mentally healthy' people to go a little fruity, so god knows what it does to those who are considered 'mentally ill'.

... and the judge had the audacity to use the word 'civilised'! the only civilised prisons are the new 'secure therapeutic communitys' that are popping up. so, we are getting there, slowly.

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OK, either the guy is mentally ill, or he isn't. Either way he is a convicted criminal, so he should be in prison, or an institution such as Broadmoor (I believe that is a prison for the mentally ill?).

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Oh yeah, I entirely agree that he, whatever he did, should be held in a secure facility so that his offending behaviour can be addressed safely. But prisons are for punishment, it's possible (although I have no idea) that whilst he's under his condition, whatever it is, he won't really understand why he's in there the same way we would if we were in there. A secure therapeutic community would help him to come to terms with whats he's done and perhaps make the punishment part of his sentence more effective. Anyway, just one of my brain pharts being vented :D