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-   -   ID card Bill dropped (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=26810)

tkiely 05-04-2005 23:17
ID card Bill dropped
 
It has been announced that due to time limitations before the election, the ID card Bill has been taken off the adgenda.

Personally, and professionally (IT security consultant) I found the bill itself and SOME of the people involved in its inception (who I met ina professional capacity) to be less than acceptable.

I do wonder if the Government found this election to be a very handy excuse to drop a bill which could have left tham with egg on their faces?????

Ramrod 05-04-2005 23:26
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Definitely looks like it!

the_neurotic_cat 05-04-2005 23:29
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Oh Thank God ... thats great news!

It would have been a total waste of time and money in regards to any serious criminal activity, just making it slightly more expensive to do whatever they would do anyway.

Egg's ? ... Face's ? ... say, whats happened to Prescot anyway?

Graham 06-04-2005 00:27
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Whilst it is good news, unfortunately all that means is that they're likely to try to stick the same thing through in the next Parliament :(

Maggy 06-04-2005 01:43
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Whilst it is good news, unfortunately all that means is that they're likely to try to stick the same thing through in the next Parliament :(

Only if they get back in with a decent majority surely?Otherwise it will be a waste of time. :)

nffc 06-04-2005 01:54
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
They'll get in again unfortunately but by how much? As for the ID cards I can't see how it would add anything, it would be no security value except in the case of those without a driving licence or passport... and how many does that entail?

Surely it would make better sense for anyone without either to be "made" to have either a passport or a provisional- and then be required to produce within 48 hrs of a reasonable request.

ID cards especially those containing sensitive data, I have qualms about. I've got nowt to hide but the prospect of having a big file with potentially sensitive information, to which people can "tap into" on a computer [with the added security implications] is rather Orwellian in concept and could have human rights implications IMHO.

Making people carry ID is not a problem [I already carry a photocard licence] but the "intelligent" ID proposed, and making it compulsory, is the problem.

Surely there's a "middle way"...

jrhnewark 06-04-2005 02:27
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Crap idea from its' inception.

Funny how Labour are finally feeling the head from the Lib Dems - and about time too. I want rid of Labour.

Monster Jedi 06-04-2005 02:29
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
It reminds me of Mother Russia. "Papers Please."

me283 06-04-2005 08:05
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc
They'll get in again unfortunately but by how much? As for the ID cards I can't see how it would add anything, it would be no security value except in the case of those without a driving licence or passport... and how many does that entail?

Surely it would make better sense for anyone without either to be "made" to have either a passport or a provisional- and then be required to produce within 48 hrs of a reasonable request.

ID cards especially those containing sensitive data, I have qualms about. I've got nowt to hide but the prospect of having a big file with potentially sensitive information, to which people can "tap into" on a computer [with the added security implications] is rather Orwellian in concept and could have human rights implications IMHO.

Making people carry ID is not a problem [I already carry a photocard licence] but the "intelligent" ID proposed, and making it compulsory, is the problem.

Surely there's a "middle way"...
Personally I can see the benefits, but agree that a "middle way" might be better. Unfortunately it is a sign of the times, and the way society has evolved, that sees us even considering a need for such a Bill.

Xaccers 06-04-2005 08:07
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
This is good news.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for ID cards as I've seen the benifits a well thought out and implimented ID card scheme can bring to people in other countries (where the locals also don't have an issue with cards either)
Its just (from current evidence) I have no confidence in Labour to impliment such a scheme correctly.
If they did try, you can practically guarentee that it would be late, way over budget, and not do what it's supposed to do!

me283 06-04-2005 08:10
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
This is good news.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for ID cards as I've seen the benifits a well thought out and implimented ID card scheme can bring to people in other countries (where the locals also don't have an issue with cards either)
Its just (from current evidence) I have no confidence in Labour to impliment such a scheme correctly.
If they did try, you can practically guarentee that it would be late, way over budget, and not do what it's supposed to do!
Right with you on that one Xaccers. And I am struggling with the concept of how the whole scheme would impinge on the wonderful "human rights"... Just imagine how it would be if the wonderful Mr. Prescott were put in charge of it!

philip.j.fry 06-04-2005 08:57
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Only if they get back in with a decent majority surely?Otherwise it will be a waste of time. :)
Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that if we have a Conservative government they will pick the idea up as their own :(

Graham 06-04-2005 12:08
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
they're likely to try to stick the same thing through in the next Parliament :(
Only if they get back in with a decent majority surely?Otherwise it will be a waste of time. :)
It depends on which way the Tories go. First they said they wouldn't support it, then they said they would if it fulfilled their "five tests", then they decided it wouldn't and said they would not support it (presumably because they saw more possible votes in that).

After the Election they can support it again without needing to worry about losing votes.

Stuart 06-04-2005 12:15
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
This is good news.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for ID cards as I've seen the benifits a well thought out and implimented ID card scheme can bring to people in other countries (where the locals also don't have an issue with cards either)
Its just (from current evidence) I have no confidence in Labour to impliment such a scheme correctly.
If they did try, you can practically guarentee that it would be late, way over budget, and not do what it's supposed to do!

Agreed. I too can see the benefits (not sure increased security will be one as someone will inevitably find a way to forge ID cards), but I don't trust the government to implement it. Look at the fun they've had with the various projects they have been involved with so far (CPS anyone?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Right with you on that one Xaccers. And I am struggling with the concept of how the whole scheme would impinge on the wonderful "human rights"... Just imagine how it would be if the wonderful Mr. Prescott were put in charge of it!
Heavens.. We agree on something? :Yikes: :Sprint: :D

BBKing 06-04-2005 12:26
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
The Tories, certainly Michael Howard, are just as keen on ID cards, so no go there.

We're British, we don't do goons in uniform demanding papers. A hearty 'Get Stuffed' to that idea. Check out how the ID card scheme the existed during WW2 ended - basically a member of the public told a copper to eff off - it got to court and the judge ruled that the law was daft.

The key point here was never the ID card - it's the national database of about 50 different things about everyone in Britain (except foreigners, including the Irish, who in particular are allowed to come in without passports, either. Of course, there's no terrorist threat there, is there?). Such a database is a) invasive b) expensive and c) wouldn't work properly anyway. The risk is that if your details on it are incorrect, they are seen as correct by the entire State apparatus and you are the one who is wrong because 'the computer says so'. Technology isn't advanced enough yet and Government IT is less trustworthy than an abacus anyway.

The only people who'd benefit would be policemen with an interest in bossing people around and large multinational consultancies who'd take billions of our money and deliver a crap system.

me283 06-04-2005 12:53
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
Agreed. I too can see the benefits (not sure increased security will be one as someone will inevitably find a way to forge ID cards), but I don't trust the government to implement it. Look at the fun they've had with the various projects they have been involved with so far (CPS anyone?).



Heavens.. We agree on something? :Yikes: :Sprint: :D
Thing is, the risk of forgery cannot be a valid argument. You could say the sam e about credit cards, and even cash; it's just a risk you have to take into account.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
The Tories, certainly Michael Howard, are just as keen on ID cards, so no go there.

We're British, we don't do goons in uniform demanding papers. A hearty 'Get Stuffed' to that idea. Check out how the ID card scheme the existed during WW2 ended - basically a member of the public told a copper to eff off - it got to court and the judge ruled that the law was daft.

The key point here was never the ID card - it's the national database of about 50 different things about everyone in Britain (except foreigners, including the Irish, who in particular are allowed to come in without passports, either. Of course, there's no terrorist threat there, is there?). Such a database is a) invasive b) expensive and c) wouldn't work properly anyway. The risk is that if your details on it are incorrect, they are seen as correct by the entire State apparatus and you are the one who is wrong because 'the computer says so'. Technology isn't advanced enough yet and Government IT is less trustworthy than an abacus anyway.

The only people who'd benefit would be policemen with an interest in bossing people around and large multinational consultancies who'd take billions of our money and deliver a crap system.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
The Tories, certainly Michael Howard, are just as keen on ID cards, so no go there.

We're British, we don't do goons in uniform demanding papers. A hearty 'Get Stuffed' to that idea. Check out how the ID card scheme the existed during WW2 ended - basically a member of the public told a copper to eff off - it got to court and the judge ruled that the law was daft.

The key point here was never the ID card - it's the national database of about 50 different things about everyone in Britain (except foreigners, including the Irish, who in particular are allowed to come in without passports, either. Of course, there's no terrorist threat there, is there?). Such a database is a) invasive b) expensive and c) wouldn't work properly anyway. The risk is that if your details on it are incorrect, they are seen as correct by the entire State apparatus and you are the one who is wrong because 'the computer says so'. Technology isn't advanced enough yet and Government IT is less trustworthy than an abacus anyway.

The only people who'd benefit would be policemen with an interest in bossing people around and large multinational consultancies who'd take billions of our money and deliver a crap system.
I would prefer a system that holds a lot of info, as it reduces the risk of forgery and fraud. I use online banking, and they ask several security questions... and not always the same ones. Suits me.

Xaccers 06-04-2005 13:59
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Thats the thing, other countries have implimented ID cards and they've worked (even with fingerprint data), they don't get goons asking for people's papers just for the hell of it, it's when the person is involved in an incident (also very useful if someone's involved in an accident or found dead!)
As for the fear that having your fingerprints on file means the goverment can track you, well I think people have been watching too much CSI!
If a fingerprint is lifted, then certain points and charactoristics are matched, it's not like they move one image over another and go "bingo, perfect match"
If a search was done on a lifted print it would probably come up with thousands of matches, so finding the identity without already having a suspect is nigh impossible.
Personally I feel that a conviction on fingerprint evidence alone should not be allowed, as previous events in scotland showed when a WPC's fingerprints were technically found at a crime scene she'd never been to (enough points matched even though it wasn't her print)
Fingerprints may be unique, the results from analysing them aren't!

Stuart 06-04-2005 14:40
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
Agreed. I too can see the benefits (not sure increased security will be one as someone will inevitably find a way to forge ID cards), but I don't trust the government to implement it. Look at the fun they've had with the various projects they have been involved with so far (CPS anyone?).
Thing is, the risk of forgery cannot be a valid argument. You could say the sam e about credit cards, and even cash; it's just a risk you have to take into account.
Actually, I was making the point that the government has said that ID cards will prevent terrorism. I don't think they will. There will be a way for terrorists to forge them. I wasn't using the risk of forgery as a reason not to introduce ID cards.

Having said that, I actually agree with ID cards.

me283 06-04-2005 14:43
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
Actually, I was making the point that the government has said that ID cards will prevent terrorism. I don't think they will. There will be a way for terrorists to forge them. I wasn't using the risk of forgery as a reason not to introduce ID cards.

Having said that, I actually agree with ID cards.
Fair enough, my mistake. I'm with you on ID cards too.

BBKing 06-04-2005 14:46
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
(also very useful if someone's involved in an accident or found dead!)
As long as they remember to take their ID card with them if they're going to be found dead. The point is, it's presumably possible to identify people now without spending billions on dodgy IT systems and forcing us all to queue up at registration points where we all get fingerprinted and iris scanned on pain of imprisonment.

Chris 06-04-2005 14:52
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
I'd happily raise a glass at this scheme's funeral wake if I thought it wasn't just going to get resurrected right after the election. Seeing as I don't believe there has been any doubt about May 5 in the minds of Blair and others for quite some time now, they must have suspected this bill would fail to become Law in this Parliament. The plans will be well laid for them to pick it up in the new one.

The best we can hope for now is a Labour majority reduced to the point where Blair has to heed the considerable number of backbench rebels who won't support it. Or a Lib Dem government, of course, which won't introduce any such scheme. Sadly I don't think there's much chance of that.

Xaccers 06-04-2005 15:08
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
As long as they remember to take their ID card with them if they're going to be found dead. The point is, it's presumably possible to identify people now without spending billions on dodgy IT systems and forcing us all to queue up at registration points where we all get fingerprinted and iris scanned on pain of imprisonment.
Of course if they're made compulsary, then there's more chance that the ID card will be present on the victim.

As for forgery, if the cards are electronically checked against the information in the database rather than just checking your picture/signature/pin etc then it's much harder to forge a working card, just as it's hard for people to get away with using false numberplates on their cars when they're checked.

punky 06-04-2005 15:14
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
I'd happily raise a glass at this scheme's funeral wake if I thought it wasn't just going to get resurrected right after the election.
To be honest, I am wondering wether it would be. It hardly has any support, and not even from the people who fighting terrorism is their #1 priority, who Tony tried to pander it to. They also underestimated the amount of people, for who fighting terrorism is a #1 priority too it looks like.

They have manage to find a good excuse to drop it... If they pick it back up, surely they are just asking for trouble. They'd better off hoping the issue goes away quietly.

andyl 06-04-2005 16:25
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
To be honest, I am wondering wether it would be. It hardly has any support, and not even from the people who fighting terrorism is their #1 priority, who Tony tried to pander it to. They also underestimated the amount of people, for who fighting terrorism is a #1 priority too it looks like.

They have manage to find a good excuse to drop it... If they pick it back up, surely they are just asking for trouble. They'd better off hoping the issue goes away quietly.
Oh God, I'm agreeing with Punky again. Guess I must be overdue that holiday ;)

The whole ID cards thing will be a costly and useless mess. The scope for c*ck up on the IT side alone scares me given governments' (of both persuasions) general inability to get any technlogy project done to budget, deadline and specification. The fact that ID cards are unlikely to actually reduce the risk of terorist threat also makes me wonder what the real agenda (not for long though). ID cards coupled with those new speed cameras that read your plate and calculate your average speed over some distance, plus mobile phone records (I could go on)... the scope for abuse is immense.

Xaccers 06-04-2005 16:57
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
If politicians were able to cut through the waffle and actually list the real honest to god benifits of ID cards then I'm sure more people would accept them (although according to media polls public support is high)

Course that still leaves the implimentation problem and there's no way this goverment could do it properly!

punky 06-04-2005 17:22
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
OK, Labour are officially muppets

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...ditches_cards/

They definitely will be coming back if Labour win. Surely they won't now, they would have lost too many votes to Lib Dem, and maybe even a couple to the Tories.

Matth 06-04-2005 18:15
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
The biggest defect of the "first past the post" voting system is it takes to big a swing to change anything, and places most of the responsibility for that change on a limited number of marginals - I'd favor straight proportional, even if it gave a few seats to extremists of all varieties... if the other parties were so deadlocked that a few cranks could call the shots, they's be 100% to blame for that situation.

It seems the best we can hope for, is a hung parliament, or one so close to it that a reasonable number of dissenters on the governing party can turn any vote that does not have all-party support.

Gogogo 06-04-2005 18:41
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
OK, Labour are officially muppetshttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...ditches_cards/
They definitely will be coming back if Labour win. Surely they won't now, they would have lost too many votes to Lib Dem, and maybe even a couple to the Tories.
Actually would disagree. Labour voters traditionally rather abstain than vote for muppets like the Liberals, some might vote for the Liberals but most would abstain I know this from experience. Anyway, it's early days it's a long way to go and who knows. Maybe, traditional Labour voters will be out in force. More likely that the muppet Tories will squeeze the Liberal vote.

Graham 06-04-2005 19:10
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
If politicians were able to cut through the waffle and actually list the real honest to god benifits of ID cards then I'm sure more people would accept them
:rofl: if more people understood the truth about ID cards (and doesn't even *include* the costs!), I'm damn certain that more people would be dead set against them!

Quote:
(although according to media polls public support is high)
Only because too few people realise what they would actually entail.

For more on this, see all my other posts on ID cards because I'm not going to do them all again!!

:walk:

the_neurotic_cat 06-04-2005 20:53
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
I think I know the motive's beihind the ID cards, it's the same old story of 'more power' for the power elite. It's not conscious or anything, just human nature.

Fear is usually the rationalisation to justify the aggregation of power. It's always happened during times of war, now we have the perpetual 'war of terrorism' ... sheesh.

Sod Tony Blair and his 'Hi, I'm Tony and I want to be your friend' crap. Stick it where bush's male poultry goes!

BBKing 06-04-2005 20:53
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
(although according to media polls public support is high)
According to government polls, actually, which had questions along the lines of 'Would you like to see terrorism and benefit fraud reduced by the introduction of ID cards?'. Ask the right question and you can claim anything but actually prove nothing at all.

I fully expect, as Graham says, that when people understood the full implications of a national database of 50 details per person being available to any State busybody, the bureaucratic burden on everyone to keep their details up to date on pain of fines and the distinct lack of any discernable benefit to the individual for the substantial extra cost public opinion will turn out to be against it. However, it'll be too late unless we stand up against it now.

Gogogo - it's 'Liberal Democrats', dear chap. Try to stop living in the past, you sound like a Conservative local election leaflet.

philip.j.fry 06-04-2005 21:02
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
Gogogo - it's 'Liberal Democrats', dear chap. Try to stop living in the past, you sound like a Conservative local election leaflet.
I was given a Conservative flyer today that was putting down a few LibDem policies, sadly for the Tories I agreed with the LibDem policies :D

BBKing 06-04-2005 21:21
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
I gave the last BNP leaflet I got (with its interesting juxtaposition of flames and pictures of nuclear white families) to our baby, who was highly delighted and kept it for some weeks, hiding it behind things. Never knew where it would turn up.

the_neurotic_cat 06-04-2005 22:01
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I gave the last BNP leaflet I got (with its interesting juxtaposition of flames and pictures of nuclear white families) to our baby, who was highly delighted and kept it for some weeks, hiding it behind things. Never knew where it would turn up.
:rofl:

Graham 07-04-2005 00:12
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
I gave the last BNP leaflet I got (with its interesting juxtaposition of flames and pictures of nuclear white families)
Is that some new form of WMD??? :D

me283 07-04-2005 07:34
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
:rofl: if more people understood the truth about ID cards (and doesn't even *include* the costs!), I'm damn certain that more people would be dead set against them!
So what is the "truth" about them (not including the costs)?

BBKing 07-04-2005 08:19
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Is that some new form of WMD???
No, it's a new shade from Dulux - 'Paint your bathroom Nuclear White'. You can find it at Homebase, which is more than you can for WMD.

Quote:
So what is the "truth" about them (not including the costs)?
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php (they haven't updated the first answer yet, though).

punky 07-04-2005 08:52
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php (they haven't updated the first answer yet, though).
I bet that site is impartial, and in no way has an agenda to push...

ntluser 07-04-2005 09:12
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Sadly for Tony Blair the dropping of the ID cards is just one of the "out of touch with the electorate policies" to be dropped.

They thought we wanted regional government. We didn't.They thought we wanted super-casinos. We didn't.They thought we wanted government at any price. We didn't.

The one thing they failed to see was that we wanted honest, effective government.

me283 07-04-2005 09:19
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser
Sadly for Tony Blair the dropping of the ID cards is just one of the "out of touch with the electorate policies" to be dropped.

They thought we wanted regional government. We didn't.They thought we wanted super-casinos. We didn't.They thought we wanted government at any price. We didn't.

The one thing they failed to see was that we wanted honest, effective government.
I fully agree with your last comment, but the to others I would say that they don't realloy care what the people want. If it suits Mr. Blair and his people, they will go for it. One only has to look at the implications of the Civil Contingencies Bill, and our particular "human rights" legislation to see that.

If Labour come back in, and they want it, we will have ID cards.

BBKing 07-04-2005 09:31
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
I bet that site is impartial, and in no way has an agenda to push...
I'd say the agenda is fairly obvious to an intelligent reader from the name and logo - the FAQ is surprisingly fairly balanced, actually, and contains far more information than the Government have made available. It does take a fair bit of glee in reporting contradictory assertions by ministers, but those are freely available and you can check them yourself. If the ministers didn't want the contradictions to be highlighted they shouldn't have made them.

Stuart 07-04-2005 09:49
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
Quote:
Is that some new form of WMD???
No, it's a new shade from Dulux - 'Paint your bathroom Nuclear White'. You can find it at Homebase, which is more than you can for WMD.
WMD's are at homebase. You can find them next to the Creosote.. Oh wait, that's the exterior Paint.. :D

BBKing 07-04-2005 10:22
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
WMD's are at homebase.
You fool, now the USAF are going to Stealth Bomb every Homebase in the country. Didn't you know that Hasam al-Creosote is a key al-Qaeda operative in Swindon?

Xaccers 07-04-2005 10:28
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php (they haven't updated the first answer yet, though).
Don't see anything in that document which has changed my mind

Stuart 07-04-2005 10:34
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
Quote:
WMD's are at homebase.
You fool, now the USAF are going to Stealth Bomb every Homebase in the country. Didn't you know that Hasam al-Creosote is a key al-Qaeda operative in Swindon?

Well, if the USAF are going to bomb Homebase, then at least Homebase will be safe. Wouldn't like to be in any of the buildings around Homebase though.

:D

BBKing 07-04-2005 10:46
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Well, if the USAF are going to bomb Homebase, then at least Homebase will be safe
Reports are coming in that Homechoice headquarters has been flattened by a cruise missile.

Xaccers 07-04-2005 10:47
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
Well, if the USAF are going to bomb Homebase, then at least Homebase will be safe. Wouldn't like to be in any of the buildings around Homebase though.

:D
Or in Belgum

ian@huth 07-04-2005 11:23
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser
Sadly for Tony Blair the dropping of the ID cards is just one of the "out of touch with the electorate policies" to be dropped.

They thought we wanted regional government. We didn't.They thought we wanted super-casinos. We didn't.They thought we wanted government at any price. We didn't.

The one thing they failed to see was that we wanted honest, effective government.
The problem is that no party can be in touch with what the electorate want. In many cases the electorate itself doesn't know what it wants.

Turnout in elections is low and the ones that do bother aren't by and large voting for all the policies of the party they select. Many people like some of the policies of one party and some of the policies of the others but you have to select only one candidate which means that you are voting for someone who has policies that you may really not want enacted. Many of the ones that do bother to vote don't even know what the policies of their chosen candidate or party are. They vote one way because they always have done so as their parents and grandparents did.

Some people say things as quoted above such as "They thought we wanted super-casinos. We didn't" but is that really true? Most people probably don't give a hoot whether we have super-casinos or don't. I have seen many market research questionaires which would ask questions along the lines of "do you think we should have ID cards? yes, no or not bothered" The true answer may be none of those options but could be a mixture of them. It could be yes if certain conditions were met but no if they weren't. The results of that survey can then be sensationalised by the press and made to look a completely different picture to what it really is.

In a way the votes on this forum regarding "the cap" and the comments made in the various threads highlight the fact that we can't see the wood for the trees. Voting in them has been far wide of what customers in general think, in my opinion. Comments made have been dominated by people who are against caps. This is mainly because people who are against something that is proposed to be happening will be much more voiciferous and will continue to push their point of view far longer than those who don't mind the caps.

me283 07-04-2005 11:31
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian@huth
The problem is that no party can be in touch with what the electorate want. In many cases the electorate itself doesn't know what it wants.

Turnout in elections is low and the ones that do bother aren't by and large voting for all the policies of the party they select. Many people like some of the policies of one party and some of the policies of the others but you have to select only one candidate which means that you are voting for someone who has policies that you may really not want enacted. Many of the ones that do bother to vote don't even know what the policies of their chosen candidate or party are. They vote one way because they always have done so as their parents and grandparents did.

Some people say things as quoted above such as "They thought we wanted super-casinos. We didn't" but is that really true? Most people probably don't give a hoot whether we have super-casinos or don't. I have seen many market research questionaires which would ask questions along the lines of "do you think we should have ID cards? yes, no or not bothered" The true answer may be none of those options but could be a mixture of them. It could be yes if certain conditions were met but no if they weren't. The results of that survey can then be sensationalised by the press and made to look a completely different picture to what it really is.

In a way the votes on this forum regarding "the cap" and the comments made in the various threads highlight the fact that we can't see the wood for the trees. Voting in them has been far wide of what customers in general think, in my opinion. Comments made have been dominated by people who are against caps. This is mainly because people who are against something that is proposed to be happening will be much more voiciferous and will continue to push their point of view far longer than those who don't mind the caps.
Very true, and also many people vote on personality too. It has been said that many votes were won by that "nice Mr. Blair". I went to a Polling Station once and only one candidate was there, meeting and greeting people, taking time to chat and answer questions. Whilst most people may have decided by that point who to vote for, he could have picked up a few "don't knows". It gave the impression of the other candidates that they were not that bothered by that stage.

Graham 07-04-2005 17:12
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
So what is the "truth" about them (not including the costs)?
See BBKing's post and all the other threads on here about them because I really can't be bothered to do all the arguments *again*.

andyl 07-04-2005 17:38
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
I went to a Polling Station once and only one candidate was there, meeting and greeting people, taking time to chat and answer questions. Whilst most people may have decided by that point who to vote for, he could have picked up a few "don't knows". It gave the impression of the other candidates that they were not that bothered by that stage.
Candidates and party members must tread a fine line at Polling Stations as it is an offence to exert 'undue influence' on voters. I think also, that they are not able to display party emblems and logos within X yards of a Polling Station.

Xaccers 07-04-2005 18:01
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
See BBKing's post and all the other threads on here about them because I really can't be bothered to do all the arguments *again*.
I can't think of any arguments against them that aren't down to paranoia and misunderstanding (excluding financial arguments against them)

Sure you get the "but it won't help against such and such" type arguments, but so what if it doesn't? There are plenty of other benifits to joe public in having one, so should we not have them because the card can't do something?
A photo driving licence doesn't help prevent terrorism, but gives several benifits to the user, should we get rid of them and go back to paper? Nope because of the other benifits that the photo licience gives.

me283 07-04-2005 18:40
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Candidates and party members must tread a fine line at Polling Stations as it is an offence to exert 'undue influence' on voters. I think also, that they are not able to display party emblems and logos within X yards of a Polling Station.
Sounds fair enough; but the impression it gave was positive on the guy that turned up and negative on those that hadn't. Just an observation.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
I can't think of any arguments against them that aren't down to paranoia and misunderstanding (excluding financial arguments against them)

Sure you get the "but it won't help against such and such" type arguments, but so what if it doesn't? There are plenty of other benifits to joe public in having one, so should we not have them because the card can't do something?
A photo driving licence doesn't help prevent terrorism, but gives several benifits to the user, should we get rid of them and go back to paper? Nope because of the other benifits that the photo licience gives.
And there will always be naysayers with every new concept that is proposed. Truth is, we won't know the full benefits until the system (if ever) is tried. Would cost not be somewhat reduced by the reduction in benefit fraud and the like? There are often estimates published about the amount that this type of fraud loses, but that may be the tip of the iceberg. WHo knows, the ID card scheme may even end up paying for itself, at least in part?

BBKing 07-04-2005 18:47
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
WHo knows, the ID card scheme may even end up paying for itself, at least in part?
If it's paying for it in part, it's still costing the government more than if you let the benefit fraud continue. Also, 'benefit fraud' is a big catch-all for a lot of different offences, very few of which would be hindered by having ID cards. For instance, if you claim benefit and do some removals work cash in hand on the side, how on earth will having an ID card help catch you? Surely putting the money into some nosey cynical benefit inspectors (or policemen for that matter) would be a better way of catching this rather common type of fraudster?

me283 07-04-2005 19:09
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKing
If it's paying for it in part, it's still costing the government more than if you let the benefit fraud continue. Also, 'benefit fraud' is a big catch-all for a lot of different offences, very few of which would be hindered by having ID cards. For instance, if you claim benefit and do some removals work cash in hand on the side, how on earth will having an ID card help catch you? Surely putting the money into some nosey cynical benefit inspectors (or policemen for that matter) would be a better way of catching this rather common type of fraudster?
But we don't know exactly how much this type of fraud costs... people claiming under multiple identities etc. It's only when they are found out that we know how much people have scammed. Also, the cost of fraud is constant or increasing; the cost of the ID scheme would be partly a startup cost, partly maintenance. All I am saying is that whilst there will be an initial outlay, there could also be some financial benefits too.

Graham 07-04-2005 19:48
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
I can't think of any arguments against them that aren't down to paranoia and misunderstanding (excluding financial arguments against them)
Then I suggest you go and read the no2id site because it gives plenty of reasons that can't be glibly dismissed as "paranoia".
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
All I am saying is that whilst there will be an initial outlay, there could also be some financial benefits too.
* * * * *

Will an identity card help eliminate benefit fraud?

The government has not provided evidence to support such a claim. David Blunkett went so far as to dismiss the significance of identity fraud in welfare, advising Parliament †œbenefit fraud is only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit systemÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã‚Â.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#8

* * * * *

There are figures quoted (by the Benefits Agency) of around £2 billion in fraud each year, but ID fraud is only a "tiny part" of that figure.

* * * * *

How much will the scheme cost the taxpayer?

The government estimated in 2002 that the scheme would cost somewhere in the order of £3.1 billion. When in 2004 the Home Affairs Committee asked the Home Secretary to clarify the exact amount he refused, citing commercial secrecy. By the time the final Bill was published in November 2004 the government acknowledged that the cost of the scheme over ten years would be £5.5 billion. Industry specialists have warned that the complexity and uncertainty of the schemeÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s architecture and technology could drive this cost even higher.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#12

* * * * *

The only "financial benefits" will be to the companies who get the lucrative contracts to develop and implement the scheme. The rest of us will just pay through the nose.

Xaccers 07-04-2005 20:06
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
But we don't know exactly how much this type of fraud costs... people claiming under multiple identities etc. It's only when they are found out that we know how much people have scammed. Also, the cost of fraud is constant or increasing; the cost of the ID scheme would be partly a startup cost, partly maintenance. All I am saying is that whilst there will be an initial outlay, there could also be some financial benefits too.
Well according to the faq site that was linked to

Quote:
In evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Department of Work and Pensions, Chris Pond MP, confirmed that false identity represented a tiny fraction of the benefit fraud problem. He said his Department advised that of the estimated £2 billion total annual benefit fraud, £50 million came from people not being who they said they were when making a claim.
£50mill ion is a lot of money, and as the site says a bit later, the ID card scheme would cost several times that to impliment, however if it could wipe out that type of fraud, then that's £50 million a year saved each year.
And with your financial information on record and referencable through the ID system, they're more likely to be able to tackle more of the £2billi on other fraud (course the site didn't say that bit).

Benifits to me of a well thought out and properly implimented ID card system (ie not the one Labour are wanting to impliment) :

Replaces my driving licence so replaces all the benifits of that, such as evidence of address, DoB, ability to drive legally.

Tied in with a biometric passport, I'll be able to just use my hand print or iris recognition at passport control making it much quicker and easier (works well in Israel)

Intergrated with my credit and debit cards I get the security of the card and biomentrics being referenced together against the database.
If someone steals my card, well tough, without my eye or hand it's useless.
And that ladies and gentlemen is how security should work, with multiple points of reference.
Somoene makes a forged card, gee, that's nice, the details on the database won't match, the biometrics won't match.
Sure it might get them into a bar where the only security check is a visual comparison of the photo with your face, but with something goverment backed, which references the database, then they'll have issues.
The photo on the card might match the face, but the photo in the database won't, or the biometrics.
For credit checks, queries can be sent to the database for comparison, where it doesn't give out the data but checks what you've told the crediter and give a match or no-match result. That way they aren't able to access your info directly.

andyl 07-04-2005 20:06
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
IA photo driving licence doesn't help prevent terrorism, but gives several benifits to the user
. What benefits to me. I get by with my plain old paper one, ta v much!

Xaccers 07-04-2005 20:20
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
. What benefits to me. I get by with my plain old paper one, ta v much!
Well I found the paper one quite bulky to carry around in my wallet, so the photo card part is perfect.
Now you may be a northerner with short arms and deep pockets so plenty of room to fit it in.
Also, if someone stole your driving licence, they can pretend to be you, one with a lovely photo of yourself kinda puts a stop to that.
Many businesses won't accept non-photo driving licences as a form of ID

andyl 07-04-2005 20:30
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Well I found the paper one quite bulky to carry around in my wallet, so the photo card part is perfect.
My paper one fits snugly in my wallet. Obviously I don't keep cash there but rely on the generosity of southerners to keep me in whippets and black pudding!
Quote:
Now you may be a northerner with short arms and deep pockets so plenty of room to fit it in.
Picked up all my habits dahn sarf. Born in Luton, brought up in Hertfordshire ;)
Quote:
Also, if someone stole your driving licence, they can pretend to be you, one with a lovely photo of yourself kinda puts a stop to that.
And you don't think we'll get fake driving licences and ID cards?
Quote:
Many businesses won't accept non-photo driving licences as a form of ID
Yet to come across any that don't.

ID cards will be one huge waste of time and money IMO.

Xaccers 07-04-2005 20:41
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
My paper one fits snugly in my wallet. Obviously I don't keep cash there but rely on the generosity of southerners to keep me in whippets and black pudding!
Mine doesn't, and I remember one guy being charged because he sliced off a few mm from his to get it to fit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
Picked up all my habits dahn sarf. Born in Luton, brought up in Hertfordshire ;)
Well, you have my sympathy ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy
And you don't think we'll get fake driving licences and ID cards?
Yes we do, but it's much easier for somoene to steal and misuse a paper one than find a good enough forger and pay for a fake one.
Of course if when the driving licence was checked a photo came up on the screen, then any forgery would be immediately detected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Yet to come across any that don't.
Off the top of my head, most pubs won't, nor cinemas.
I've seen other places, like certain blockbusters and even some highstreet stores when applying for credit

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
ID cards will be one huge waste of time and money IMO.
Yup, I agree, because I don't think this goverment has the ability to do it any other way.
If I thought they could however, I'd be all for it.

punky 07-04-2005 20:47
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Don't forget, the new ones are a lot wider than the older pre-photocards one... it won't fit in my wallet anyway. Even if it was an older driving license, I still couldn't keep it in my wallet, even with the plastic, as it gets really knackered really easy (like my dad's). I keep the photocard in my wallet (which looks knackered enough too), because it will probably stop me getting a "producer" if I am pulled over (having to produce your documents at a police station).

ID cards are all nice in theory - that is the system does what people would like them to do. The trouble is, we all know, like the NHS computer system, it won't be implemented properly and cost us a fortune. But it is still nice to dream... One card with my medical history to help paramedics treat me at a scene of an accident. An unforgable card to prevent ID theft, a card to reduce having to carry a driving license, donor card, NI, passport, etc. A card to prevent having to keep produce 2 forms of ID. All in one nice bit of plastic.

andyl 07-04-2005 21:23
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Punky, I agree - oh no! - that you can't trust the government (not just this one) to implement an IT project. I wouldn't trust them to plug a PS2 in without racking up enormous consultancy fees, paying through the nose for a SCART lead and failing to hit the deadline of being up and running before the kids hit the age of consent.

But, the idea of all that info on one card scares me to death.

punky 07-04-2005 23:06
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Punky, I agree - oh no! - that you can't trust the government (not just this one) to implement an IT project. I wouldn't trust them to plug a PS2 in without racking up enormous consultancy fees, paying through the nose for a SCART lead and failing to hit the deadline of being up and running before the kids hit the age of consent.

But, the idea of all that info on one card scares me to death.
Well, the government know all that anyway. Its merely a case of trying to centralise the data and make it secure. Remember, 9/11 happened, because the INS couldn't talk with the DMV or the DOS (despite INS being a department of the DOS!), and making sure it is secure (and that everyone sees the appropriate info. i.e. the paramedics only see my health record, and the immigration only see my passport info.

The government can do that now... just takes a bit longer.

And don't worry, i'll try wearing my evil conservative hat a bit, try and stop you agreeing with me :)

me283 07-04-2005 23:09
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
. What benefits to me. I get by with my plain old paper one, ta v much!
Sounds a bit "I'm all right Jack!"... not too "liberal" though, is it?

punky 07-04-2005 23:12
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyl
What benefits to me. I get by with my plain old paper one, ta v much!
And they are rather handy, if your brother happens to be banned from driving, or doesn't have a license to begin with, and gets a producer. You can lend him yours :)

me283 07-04-2005 23:19
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Will an identity card help eliminate benefit fraud?

The government has not provided evidence to support such a claim. David Blunkett went so far as to dismiss the significance of identity fraud in welfare, advising Parliament †œbenefit fraud is only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit systemÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã‚Â.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#8

* * * * *

There are figures quoted (by the Benefits Agency) of around £2 billion in fraud each year, but ID fraud is only a "tiny part" of that figure.

* * * * *

How much will the scheme cost the taxpayer?

The government estimated in 2002 that the scheme would cost somewhere in the order of £3.1 billion. When in 2004 the Home Affairs Committee asked the Home Secretary to clarify the exact amount he refused, citing commercial secrecy. By the time the final Bill was published in November 2004 the government acknowledged that the cost of the scheme over ten years would be £5.5 billion. Industry specialists have warned that the complexity and uncertainty of the schemeÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s architecture and technology could drive this cost even higher.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#12

* * * * *

The only "financial benefits" will be to the companies who get the lucrative contracts to develop and implement the scheme. The rest of us will just pay through the nose.
What you are talking about is the "estimated" cost of "known" fraud. They are two guesstimates. And I mentioned identity fraud as a single example, not the only one.

Anyway, saying "The only "financial benefits" will be to the companies who get the lucrative contracts to develop and implement the scheme" is untrue, as by your own figures there could be a benefit of around £50 million.

And you quote David Blunkett as a reliable source? Yes, well...

I don't know how much financial benefit the scheme could bring. Anyone who claims to know is, quite frankly, lying. It could be billions, it could be a fraction of that. Without implementation we will never know. But financial savings (SOME EXAMPLES - benefit fraud, cheque book fraud, saving on police time, NHS fraud, identity fraud), may well be made.

Graham 08-04-2005 00:42
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
What you are talking about is the "estimated" cost of "known" fraud. They are two guesstimates.
These are from the Benefits Agency and their "Targetting Benefit Fraud" website. Somehow I *really* don't think they're going to *under* estimate the monies involved!!

Quote:
Anyway, saying "The only "financial benefits" will be to the companies who get the lucrative contracts to develop and implement the scheme" is untrue, as by your own figures there could be a benefit of around £50 million.
So you would spend one *hundred* times that amount to save £50 million???

Quote:
And you quote David Blunkett as a reliable source? Yes, well...
Why on earth would he have any interest in mis-representing the figures in that case? What political benefits would there be??

Quote:
I don't know how much financial benefit the scheme could bring. Anyone who claims to know is, quite frankly, lying.
So you have *NO* idea, yet you're willing to throw enough money into it to build, fit out and staff a whole bunch of police stations, hospitals and so on, on the off-chance that there may actually be some benefit down the line?

:rofl:

me283 08-04-2005 08:25
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
These are from the Benefits Agency and their "Targetting Benefit Fraud" website. Somehow I *really* don't think they're going to *under* estimate the monies involved!!



So you would spend one *hundred* times that amount to save £50 million???



Why on earth would he have any interest in mis-representing the figures in that case? What political benefits would there be??



So you have *NO* idea, yet you're willing to throw enough money into it to build, fit out and staff a whole bunch of police stations, hospitals and so on, on the off-chance that there may actually be some benefit down the line?

:rofl:
OK, you are clearly missing one point, and ignoring another... or your maths isn't too good, I'm not sure which.

Firstly, fraud savings can only be estimated, because a lot of fraud goes undetected. That is why when fraud is detected other fraud often comes to light. There are different types of fraud; ongoing fraud, and one-off frauds. The latter type can be more costly, as it may never ever be detected. The figures you are quoting relate to BELIEVED flevels of fraud. I repeat, they CANNOT be accurate. Try speking to someone who works in fraud, you may find it very interesting.

Second point, the figure you quote relates to one type of fraud only, therefore it is the minimum estimate; my previous post stated that there would be many types of fraud. Now, a simple man might acknowledge that there would be savings from each type of fraud, therefore those savings would need to be added together.

I am not sure if you didn't understand what I was saying, or were merely being difficult in an attempt to make me look foolish or ridicule me... I suspect the latter. It matters not, for regardless of whether you like it, this scheme could well be introduced by the next Government. If so, it will be interesting to see the amount saved.

Feel free to write another voluminous reply, I have plenty of time to respond to relevant points.

andyl 08-04-2005 08:56
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky
Well, the government know all that anyway. Its merely a case of trying to centralise the data and make it secure. Remember, 9/11 happened, because the INS couldn't talk with the DMV or the DOS (despite INS being a department of the DOS!), and making sure it is secure (and that everyone sees the appropriate info. i.e. the paramedics only see my health record, and the immigration only see my passport info.

The government can do that now... just takes a bit longer.

And don't worry, i'll try wearing my evil conservative hat a bit, try and stop you agreeing with me :)

It's more the idea of what someone could do with a card holding that much personal data...... although I don't trust the authorities either!
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
OK, you are clearly missing one point, and ignoring another... or your maths isn't too good, I'm not sure which.

Firstly, fraud savings can only be estimated, because a lot of fraud goes undetected. That is why when fraud is detected other fraud often comes to light. There are different types of fraud; ongoing fraud, and one-off frauds. The latter type can be more costly, as it may never ever be detected. The figures you are quoting relate to BELIEVED flevels of fraud. I repeat, they CANNOT be accurate. Try speking to someone who works in fraud, you may find it very interesting.

Second point, the figure you quote relates to one type of fraud only, therefore it is the minimum estimate; my previous post stated that there would be many types of fraud. Now, a simple man might acknowledge that there would be savings from each type of fraud, therefore those savings would need to be added together.

I am not sure if you didn't understand what I was saying, or were merely being difficult in an attempt to make me look foolish or ridicule me... I suspect the latter. It matters not, for regardless of whether you like it, this scheme could well be introduced by the next Government. If so, it will be interesting to see the amount saved.

Feel free to write another voluminous reply, I have plenty of time to respond to relevant points.
When Blunkett was in the top job he regarded Benefit Fraud as being fairly insignificant in the scheme of things.... he's on public record saying so. So I'm not sure the cost of implementing the ID scheme makes much sense in relation to it.

me283 08-04-2005 09:05
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
When Blunkett was in the top job he regarded Benefit Fraud as being fairly insignificant in the scheme of things.... he's on public record saying so. So I'm not sure the cost of implementing the ID scheme makes much sense in relation to it.
That was a judgement made by him... and let's agree that he made a few errors of judgement. Also, there have been suggestions that his focus may not have been as much on the job as it should be. His "eye was on a different prize" - excuse the pun!

andyl 08-04-2005 09:46
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
That was a judgement made by him... and let's agree that he made a few errors of judgement. Also, there have been suggestions that his focus may not have been as much on the job as it should be. His "eye was on a different prize" - excuse the pun!
He was well placed to know surely.... better so even than your mates involved in fraud investigation as he will have seen the whole picture from the vantage point of a big desk in Whitehall. And he supports ID cards remember (it being his big idea when the whole Kimberley saga was going on.... so if his eye wasn't on the job then perhaps the error of judgement occurred.....)

Xaccers 08-04-2005 09:59
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
It's more the idea of what someone could do with a card holding that much personal data...... although I don't trust the authorities either!
But that info won't need to be on the card itself will it?
All that is needed is an electronic reference number that points any queries against the card (like biometrics or previous addresses, or benifit entitlement) to your details in the database.
That way, if someone steals your card, it's pretty much as useless to them as stealing your photo driving licence.
Unless they can break into a goverment office and hack into a computer with sufficient access rights to view your details, in which case they'll be able to go "ooo look, you're not entitled to child benifit because you don't have kids, but then you haven't applied to it, oh wow, what fantastic information"

With a properly secured, thoughtout and implimented system, most information will actually go one way, ie from you to the operator who will then have it checked against the database without actually being able to see what the database holds, they'll be no need if a verification just needs to take place.
Of course many goverment organisations will need to see the information in your profile, but they already can.

Stuart 08-04-2005 11:01
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
<snip>With a properly secured, thoughtout and implimented system, most information will actually go one way,<snip>

Err, you *do* realise you are talking about a government system? :D

andyl 08-04-2005 11:05
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
The scale for abuse that such a system provides is frightening. And if it's hacked?

The other problem the Government is going to have will be the large numbers of people who will simply refuse to go along with it, me included. I envisage Poll Tax style rebellion.

Xaccers 08-04-2005 11:12
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
The scale for abuse that such a system provides is frightening. And if it's hacked?

The other problem the Government is going to have will be the large numbers of people who will simply refuse to go along with it, me included. I envisage Poll Tax style rebellion.
The goverment has many computer systems which aren't hacked and they contain much more interesting information than what Joe Blogs' father was called etc.

Other countries have ID card systems and they don't have that problem.

If they made it compulsary and replaced driving licences with it, I bet you'd get one rather than give up driving.

andyl 08-04-2005 11:18
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
The goverment has many computer systems which aren't hacked and they contain much more interesting information than what Joe Blogs' father was called etc.

Other countries have ID card systems and they don't have that problem.

If they made it compulsary and replaced driving licences with it, I bet you'd get one rather than give up driving.
No. I think the opposition will be sterner than that. Remember people went to prison when protesting about the Poll Tax.

We are not other countries. This measure is being brought in on the highly flimsy pretext of terror prevention with very little, if any, evidence that it will do so. I and many others will object to civil rights (for me283's sake, "civil rights") being attacked - and at such incredible expense too.

Xaccers 08-04-2005 11:26
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
No. I think the opposition will be sterner than that. Remember people went to prison when protesting about the Poll Tax.

We are not other countries. This measure is being brought in on the highly flimsy pretext of terror prevention with very little, if any, evidence that it will do so. I and many others will object to civil rights (for me283's sake, "civil rights") being attacked - and at such incredible expense too.
Oh yes, the goverment lying about the reasons behind it does more damage than anything else!
If labour get back in and try to impliment ID cards, I'll be against it.

me283 08-04-2005 11:31
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
The scale for abuse that such a system provides is frightening. And if it's hacked?

The other problem the Government is going to have will be the large numbers of people who will simply refuse to go along with it, me included. I envisage Poll Tax style rebellion.
Andy! Whatever happened to the man who says laws must be obeyed, even if you don't like them? Thank God the Lib Dems won't get into power, if that's their approach!
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
No. I think the opposition will be sterner than that. Remember people went to prison when protesting about the Poll Tax.

We are not other countries. This measure is being brought in on the highly flimsy pretext of terror prevention with very little, if any, evidence that it will do so. I and many others will object to civil rights (for me283's sake, "civil rights") being attacked - and at such incredible expense too.
Andy, you shock me! I am all for civil rights, it's "human rights" that I disagree with ;)

Xaccers 08-04-2005 11:34
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Could someone please list the civil rights which will be lost if well thought out and properly implimented id cards are introduced (not the crappy id cards labour wants)?

andyl 08-04-2005 11:36
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Oh yes, the goverment lying about the reasons behind it does more damage than anything else!
If labour get back in and try to impliment ID cards, I'll be against it.
Aaaah, we can share a cell together! :)

Xaccers 08-04-2005 11:38
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Aaaah, we can share a cell together! :)
A cell? you're the one talking about breaking the law!
I'm talking about doing the normal british thing of accepting it but grumbling about how much it costs :D

andyl 08-04-2005 11:41
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Andy! Whatever happened to the man who says laws must be obeyed, even if you don't like them? Thank God the Lib Dems won't get into power, if that's their approach!
__________________
As I pointed out in the 'Let's Stereotype & Bash Gypsies" thread, laws that prevent you from continuing with your way of life will, understandably, be broken whereas on the "I'm Such A Good Driver I Can Speed Then Moan When I Get Caught" thread, no such thing is true.

Quote:
Andy, you shock me! I am all for civil rights, it's "human rights" that I disagree with ;)
Civil and human rights are closely inter-related. I suspect your problem is with the Human Rights Act.

Xaccers 08-04-2005 11:43
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
As I pointed out in the 'Let's Stereotype & Bash Gypsies" thread, laws that prevent you from continuing with your way of life will, understandably, be broken
Unexcusably when there are legal alternatives, as pointed out in the Headlines about Gypsies thread (don't remember a 'Let's Stereotype & Bash Gypsies" thread...)

me283 08-04-2005 11:51
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
As I pointed out in the 'Let's Stereotype & Bash Gypsies" thread, laws that prevent you from continuing with your way of life will, understandably, be broken whereas on the "I'm Such A Good Driver I Can Speed Then Moan When I Get Caught" thread, no such thing is true.



Civil and human rights are closely inter-related. I suspect your problem is with the Human Rights Act.
Well, you have a point, I will hand it to you. My problem is partly with the Act, but also with the way "human rights" are bandied about in defence of wrong-doers. But that's a different matter.

And as for law-breaking, speeding may well be a way of life for me! ;) But I don't see how having to have an ID card would "prevent you from continuing with your way of life"?

andyl 08-04-2005 12:13
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Well, you have a point, I will hand it to you. My problem is partly with the Act, but also with the way "human rights" are bandied about in defence of wrong-doers. But that's a different matter.

And as for law-breaking, speeding may well be a way of life for me! ;) But I don't see how having to have an ID card would "prevent you from continuing with your way of life"?
The right to live in a free democratic society without my right to privacy being invaded.
__________________

Quote:
Unexcusably when there are legal alternatives
Erroneously... but let's not go wildly off topic here!
Quote:
....as pointed out in the Headlines about Gypsies thread (don't remember a 'Let's Stereotype & Bash Gypsies" thread...)
I paraphrased slightly ;)

Xaccers 08-04-2005 12:14
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
The right to live in a free democratic society without my right to privacy being invaded.
How would your privacy be invaded by putting information the goverment already has available in a central database?


Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
Erroneously... but let's not go wildly off topic here! I paraphrased slightly ;)
The undeniable fact that some leave legal sites to set up illegal ones?

Stuart 08-04-2005 12:24
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
The scale for abuse that such a system provides is frightening. And if it's hacked?

The other problem the Government is going to have will be the large numbers of people who will simply refuse to go along with it, me included. I envisage Poll Tax style rebellion.
Actually, the Government already has most of the information that would be stored under an ID card, it's just stored on different systems.

Xaccers 08-04-2005 12:38
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
I wonder if people who are agaisnt a central goverment database are also against a central police database (such as what I think Scotland have set up) which I believe the Soham report recommended

punky 08-04-2005 12:41
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
The idea is, which annoys most of the super liberals, is to tie this information in together, via a common number, your ID number. That doesn't go down well with the crowd who love "The Prisoner" with all that "I am a man, not a number!" cobblers. Nevermind, we already have at least 1 and anything upto 10 numbers already associated with us. Maybe I can use that whole "I am not a number" argument to get me out of NI contributions :scratch:

me283 08-04-2005 12:45
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
The right to live in a free democratic society without my right to privacy being invaded.
But I don't understand how your privacy woul dbe invaded, if the ID card system would just centralise the information? Please explain.

And democracy involves adhering to laws as brought in by an elected Government, or am I wrong there? Perhaps you should be calling yourself "smug anarchist"...? ;)

Xaccers 08-04-2005 12:50
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
And christians should be all for it, as it could be "the number" meaning the rapture is just around the corner (quick, look busy) :)

Chris 08-04-2005 12:59
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
And christians should be all for it, as it could be "the number" meaning the rapture is just around the corner (quick, look busy) :)
:D

Yup, all we have to do is support the Bill, then refuse to carry one.

Personally I'm more curious to see if the Pope miraculously rises from the dead over the next few days, thus proving whether Ian Paisley was right to bellow at him that he was the Antichrist. :erm:

Xaccers 08-04-2005 13:04
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T
:D

Yup, all we have to do is support the Bill, then refuse to carry one.
Ooo now that could be a get-out clause on religious grounds :D
Might work with national insurance number too!
Of course you'd probably have to prove that this is the number described in revelations, which could lead to a large contributions bill should the real number come into play later!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towny
Personally I'm more curious to see if the Pope miraculously rises from the dead over the next few days, thus proving whether Ian Paisley was right to bellow at him that he was the Antichrist. :erm:
Well, if they've got zombies in Iraq...

Graham 08-04-2005 13:43
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
OK, you are clearly missing one point, and ignoring another... or your maths isn't too good, I'm not sure which.
Really? Let's see...

Quote:
Firstly, fraud savings can only be estimated, because a lot of fraud goes undetected.
Yes, that's true, but as I already pointed out the BA are unlikely to *under* estimate the value of fraud and I think that goes for the government as well!

Secondly, however, ID cards are *not* going to stop the vast majority of benefit fraud a lot of which is people working and claiming unless you are going to require *every* employer to perform ID checks on *every* employee to ensure that they're not claiming benefits.

Of course the crooked employers aren't going to abide by this anyway, so it will only impact on honest businesses!

Quote:
Second point, the figure you quote relates to one type of fraud only, therefore it is the minimum estimate; my previous post stated that there would be many types of fraud. Now, a simple man might acknowledge that there would be savings from each type of fraud, therefore those savings would need to be added together.
But it has already been acknowleged that ID Cards would *NOT* stop the other types of fraud!!

"The majority of fraud on the benefits system is through under-reporting of income, or non-reporting of financial and family circumstances. Benefits agencies worldwide agree that false identity is not a key issue"

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#8

Quote:
I am not sure if you didn't understand what I was saying, or were merely being difficult in an attempt to make me look foolish or ridicule me... I suspect the latter.
I am not trying to make anyone look foolish, I leave that up to them.

Quote:
for regardless of whether you like it, this scheme could well be introduced by the next Government. If so, it will be interesting to see the amount saved.
Yes, I'm sure that if Labour get in, they will try to force this through and squander huge amounts of public money on a system that will not work, that will be open to abuse and fraud(!), that will certainly (it's a government IT project!) go over budget and not operate properly...

Any "savings" that *may* be created will be utterly swamped.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Other countries have ID card systems and they don't have that problem.
:banghead: Other countries *DO NOT* have the system that this government is proposing!!!

"Clause 1 and Schedule 1 of the Bill sets out more than fifty categories of information required for the register"

Read this list: http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#7

Quote:
If they made it compulsary and replaced driving licences with it, I bet you'd get one rather than give up driving.
Sure, after all, it's not as if there's any problem with people at present driving without licences or insurance, is it???

me283 08-04-2005 13:47
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Of course the crooked employers aren't going to abide by this anyway, so it will only impact on honest businesses!
Of course there are no honest employers, being conned by benefit claimants, are there? And even if there were, the ID card scheme wouldn't help in eradicating that fraud, would it? And if it did, it wouldn't save money, would it? Oh, actually it would.

And there are many types of fraud that are presently undetected. If the ID card scheme helps to prevent them, all the better. If, in turn it frees up fraud prevention officers' time to pursue other types of fraud, better again.

And if the ID card scheme is introduced... YIPPEE!!

Graham 08-04-2005 13:55
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Could someone please list the civil rights which will be lost if well thought out and properly implimented id cards are introduced (not the crappy id cards labour wants)?
What is the point of talking about something that isn't going to happen??

But this is what's going to happen with *this* scheme:

"It is important to keep in mind that the card will be buttressed by a vast array of new state powers and criminal penalties. The Bill creates a score of new offences including refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (6(4)), failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card (13(1)), failure to renew a card (9(2)), failure to submit to fingerprinting (9(4)(b)), failure to provide information demanded by the government (9(4)(d)), failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (9(4)(a)) and failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address) (12(1)). Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence. Penalties range from £1,000 fine to two years imprisonment. A penalty of up to £2,500 can be levied for failure to attend an appointment for a scan of your fingerprints and iris. This fine can be repeated for every subsequent failure to attend."

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#15
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Of course the crooked employers aren't going to abide by this anyway, so it will only impact on honest businesses!
Of course there are no honest employers, being conned by benefit claimants, are there?
Sorry? If I'm employing someone and they're illegally claiming benefits, how am *I*, as an employer "being conned"?

Quote:
And even if there were, the ID card scheme wouldn't help in eradicating that fraud, would it? And if it did, it wouldn't save money, would it? Oh, actually it would.
It might save money. At the cost of dumping yet another load or Red Tape and regulation on many small businesses who are *already* suffering under the huge amount of extraneous rubbish they're having to deal with which would probably cost much more to introduce and administer than any possible savings.

And it would, once again, force the *businessman* to become an unpaid government employee (after already collecting VAT, NI and Income Tax etc) and if they make a mistake it's the *businessman* who is liable for the error!

Quote:
And there are many types of fraud that are presently undetected. If the ID card scheme helps to prevent them, all the better. If, in turn it frees up fraud prevention officers' time to pursue other types of fraud, better again.

And if the ID card scheme is introduced... YIPPEE!!
There are an awful lot of "If"s in that last section. Can you actually back them up with any *proof* or is your argument just "I think it would work, let's spend billions on this system to find out"??

me283 08-04-2005 14:31
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
What is the point of talking about something that isn't going to happen??

But this is what's going to happen with *this* scheme:

"It is important to keep in mind that the card will be buttressed by a vast array of new state powers and criminal penalties. The Bill creates a score of new offences including refusal to obey an order from the Secretary of State (6(4)), failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card (13(1)), failure to renew a card (9(2)), failure to submit to fingerprinting (9(4)(b)), failure to provide information demanded by the government (9(4)(d)), failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time (9(4)(a)) and failure to notify the Secretary of State of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address) (12(1)). Failure to obey an order to register or providing false information will also constitute an offence. Penalties range from £1,000 fine to two years imprisonment. A penalty of up to £2,500 can be levied for failure to attend an appointment for a scan of your fingerprints and iris. This fine can be repeated for every subsequent failure to attend."

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php#15
__________________



Sorry? If I'm employing someone and they're illegally claiming benefits, how am *I*, as an employer "being conned"?



It might save money. At the cost of dumping yet another load or Red Tape and regulation on many small businesses who are *already* suffering under the huge amount of extraneous rubbish they're having to deal with which would probably cost much more to introduce and administer than any possible savings.

And it would, once again, force the *businessman* to become an unpaid government employee (after already collecting VAT, NI and Income Tax etc) and if they make a mistake it's the *businessman* who is liable for the error!



There are an awful lot of "If"s in that last section. Can you actually back them up with any *proof* or is your argument just "I think it would work, let's spend billions on this system to find out"??
No Graham, I can't, because fraud is an unknown quantity, which is the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes there are a lot of ifs, but there are pretty much no certainties. If it is implemented...etc etc. Yes there are other "if"s, and I am not going to list them, before you try saying there is only one.

andyl 08-04-2005 15:07
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me283
No Graham, I can't, because fraud is an unknown quantity, which is the point I've been trying to make all along. Yes there are a lot of ifs, but there are pretty much no certainties. If it is implemented...etc etc. Yes there are other "if"s, and I am not going to list them, before you try saying there is only one.
You can't quantify very many things - but you can produce statistical models to gauge scale.

me283 08-04-2005 15:11
Re: ID card Bill dropped
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyl
You can't quantify very many things - but you can produce statistical models to gauge scale.
The logic behind fraud is to get someone to believe something that isn't true. ie you lie to them, but they accept your lie as a fact. To quantify how much benefit fraud is costing per annum, you would need to decide how much of what is believed to be truth is avtually lies. In a nutshell, that's it; it would be a brave or a foolish man who states a exactly how much we are talking about... and anything else is an estimate, which has been given. But an estimate could be a long way from the truth.


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