Terri Schiavo dead
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4398131.stm

I can't help but think it was so utterly wrong.

There is nature taking it's course and there is starving someone to death. Just because she couldn't complain about it, doesn't mean she didn't suffer.

If they really believed it was 'right' that she should die, they should have had the courage to end it with more dignity.

Like so many people, I have said that I wouldn't want to live if I was in that state, but I'll add to that I don't want to die this way either!

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Press Press Press :mad:

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

I think it was wrong to forcefully keep someone alive like that, they should have done the decent thing and let her die years ago.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Few situations have come up as complex as this. Most of the time, you can decide what side you are on, but on this, I kept going to and fro. As soon as I thought one thing, I thought about something else on the other side.

I am very pro-ethanasia, but as you said, this is murder as Terri had no say in the matter. I don't know why they didn't just sign custody over to Terri's parents, everyone could wash their hands of it all, and her parents could deal with it, like they wanted.

In the end I sided with whatever the doctors wanted to do (in this case, to let her die). They are the experts, and their informed opinion is what they are paid hugely for, so it seems silly to ignore it.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

What are you saying?
__________________

Perhaps. Maybe back then she'd have died 'naturally'.
Doesn't mean that killing her years later makes up for the fact that they didn't.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

hey SWW :)

I think your absolutely right. The way she was allowed to die is dispicable in my books. There must have been some form of discomfort for her as she was so responsive to stimuli.

And the way her having brain damage was used to rationalise her death is disgusting. I don't care how brain damaged she was I think she had a mind, regardless of how 'articulate' it may have been is another issue.

At lest now she can't be hurt anymore.

Take care :D

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

I am against the murder of the defenceless, and in particular when it is for social convenience. I try not to be black-and-white on the issue, but hold a predominantly pro-life viewpoint.

That would have been abdicating responsibility. It is good that people stand up for what they believe is right.

Again, maybe that was the kindest/best/right thing to do, but then why use such a draconian method as starvation to deliver the sufferer from her plight?

Even the people on death-row get a better way out.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

From what I can gather, it is because of a legal wrangle. They can't give her a drug to specifically kill her, as this would constitue legal murder, even if given by a doctor. It would be regarded the same as if someone walked in with a gun and shot her.

Whilst you can't give her anything, you can legally deprive someone if they are in a "persistant vegetative state". In this instance the only thing that she could be deprived off to kill was food and water, as she had no infections or anything that would have killed her in the absence of usual drug treatment.

Why they say that? I have no idea, but I guess it is the easiest way to split up letting someone die, and forcefully killing them.

As far as I know, she suffered no pain, given the sheer amount of brain damage she had, she couldn't process the signals from the nerve endings through spine to the synapses, etc.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

That's the nature ofthe human condition - if we're not physically ill, then food & water will sustain life.
That must mean that actively depriving someone of food & water when it is readily available to give is no different than murder - no matter what the legal niceties.

I fully understand why the legal system uses these distinctions so as not to inadvertently legalise euthanasia/murder.

Still, they seem to have managed to find a way to do so in the case of the unborn and convicted...

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Well, the flip side of that is that if she wasn't in a "persistant vegetative state" then she'd have to be given food and water, it would be murder otherwise as euthanasia is illegal.

Interesting side note to this: Abortion is legal on the understanding that a foetus isn't a person. However, it seems the laws can change pretty erratically to suit a purpose. Scott Peterson was convicted of a double murder, his wife was pregnant, and he was convicted of killing her unborn baby which theoretically should make all abortionists, serial killers.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Yeah, that's why it has been suggested to give the foetus an injection before evacuating it (by whatever gruesome means) - so it doesn't 'feel' anything.

http://www.spuc.org.uk/ethics/abortion/methods

I think no-one would argue that the foetus is only a person after birth - it is quite clear that it is a 'person' well before that point. But is it when it gets a basic nervous system (15 days), its heart start beating (18 days) or when it starts moving (7 weeks)...

http://www.spuc.org.uk/ethics/abortion/human-development

They probably are...

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

It doesn't look like it's going to stop with her death either.

I get the feeling that the two familys will just let this roll on and on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4398679.stm

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

It's crazy - in any 'normal' circumstance it would be entirely normal for a husband to bury his wife (well, only if she was dead, of course) - in any case, that's part of what marriage is about.

No doubt more court time for this. The only ones winning here are the lawyers. :geez:

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

wow, anyone seen the south park parody on this? They don't take a side, understandably, but raise some interesting points.

the lawyers make their money, everyone else loses (in so many ways...)

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Blimey, those guys are quick... I'm going to have to look for that...

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Only in America, only in America

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Isn't it all rather sad how so many people, totally unconnected to this person and her family, can go to such lengths to get so publically whipped up with so much emotion about the death and apparent suffering of the one yet persistently not give even just a fraction of that enthusiam for the suffering and death of the many?

http://img54.exs.cx/img54/8681/schaivo26yp.jpg

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Rather unfair.

To some of these people this one person was the embodiement of many that suffer similar fates. (Or perhaps the acknowledgement of their own mortality.)

Either way, I'm sure plenty of them needed no 'whipping up' from anyone (e.g. the media) to express their points of view.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

I tend to agree with the comments of Flubflow and SWW. The hysteria of the masses, who ordinarily just turn the page at stories of genocide, over one person's dying, I always find distasteful.

If you have a right to life, you must also have a right to die. It's that simple and I cannot imagine it any other way. In cases of PVS though, it is difficult to establish that the person has intent to die - have to imagine what they would want on the basis of what you know about them. That said, no one knows me - not all of me, as I know me. Different people see different aspects of me. I guess you could argue that a husband/wife/partner is the person most likely to have the greatest knowledge of a their partner, but there are clearly many situations where this is not true. It's a difficult one. Compassion is something that sometimes neccessitates actions that others may not perceive as compassionate - they cannot know how the person acting with compassion actually feels. Indeed, this is the fine line - "I am wanting that person to die because I believe that is what they would want; or is it that I have had enough of seeing them dribbling every day, and want the decent thing?" And is it wrong to be "selfish" this way?

Ultimately it should be a decision for the family and not the courts/media/politicians. It's sad when it isn't this way.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

if the family disagrees legal wranglings are inevitable... quite why politicians wanted their say i really dont know :erm:

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Exactly - so sad that a load of old farts, out of touch with society, that the person has never met and who know nothing of the person should make the decision whether that person lives (suffers) or dies.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Bush was quite dependent on the midwest for his re-election. The pro-life lobby is very strong there...

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Let me let you into a secret. In the wonderful medical establishment we have here now, many many people are left without food or water when they are dying. The difference is with Terri Schiavo that she was in a persistent vegatative state and HAD to be fed by a tube into her stomach.

I disagree with the way this woman was allowed to die. From seeing news clips she was obviously respoinding to members of her family and was stil sitting up. This may not be the sort of life her family wanted for her, but, how do they know thats not what she wanted. It's the most unbearable thing to have witnessed from a distance, I.e,. on television and via the press. She had no choice, her choice was made by her family. They could have elected that if she arrested no treatment was offered or if she caught a bug or virus they didnt' treat her with antibiotics. Instead she starved to death.

Starvation is horrible, it's uneccessary and cruel. This doesn't mean that I am against other suffering in this world either, Sudan being a case in point. However, we see what the media want us to see. This has impacted on anyone with a disability for now they may not be able to make the choice either.

Sian

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

ah pro-life. They certainly have their nutters too, who will happily defend your right to life whilst you are inside the womb but after that will then think nothing of shooting you dead as soon as are old enough to think for yourself and disagree with them.
I digress, sorry.

Anyway, as soon as the last TV network news truck drives off into the sunset then, apart from a few vagrants and obese people lucky enough to be on welfare who may stick around to wave candles for a few more days, all the usual self-satisfying cheerleading daytime nutballs and the confused kids they dragged along will also disappear too.
If I was the husband of Terri Schiavo then I'd already be looking at changing my name and relocating because this is America and you wouldn't be out of place to assume that when they get emotional about something and especially when they can clearly blame one person for their upset then the lone nutter with the gun will already be thinking about tooling up for his five minutes of fame.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

according to the guardian, her husband's lawyer received death threats.

maybe americans really don't understand irony... :confused:

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

Yep, the judge, as well as Micheal Schiavo's brother, sister-in-law and gawd knows who else caught up in this have reportedly been threatened. There are too many hits on google.

Perhaps some particluar types of overly optimistic americans who are faith driven will probably never be able to truly grasp irony to its fullest. How could they. Their personal world would come crashing down if they did. Well (ironically), not unless there was a gag line leading up to the ironic moment and then finished it off with Letterman drum/cymbal finale in order for some easily confused/offended americans to understand that irony was done and over for the time being (which would at the same time demolish any real sense of irony in the process of course).
You would think that even the wackiest of them would have at least understood hypocrisy though.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

interesting editoral at new scientist. it seems the opinion of some specialists is that the only bodily function she is likely to have had is the capacity to feel pain.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

He's not the only one. The judge that ruled that feeding her was unconstitutional, and so had to be removed, is under constant armed guard with his family :rolleyes:

There has always been a major dispute between her doctors about Terri. They can't agree on anything, as this FAQ says

I suppose experts though will always disagree, even on something as defined as science as jugements can vary. I suppose though the doctors assigned to treat her have the overriding call, especially as its their responsibilty after all.

Re: Terri Schiavo dead
 

What's the problem?
She told her husband she would not like to be kept alive should she ever be in such a state.
She ended up in that state.
The law states the decision lies with her husband.
He followed her wishes by saying she wanted to be allowed to die.
The courts all agreed with him and followed her wishes.
The only ones who didn't respect her wishes are her family and pro-lifers, and the President of a so called free country.