Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

The tributes for Jim Callaghan tonight got me thinking about former Labour leaders and I wondered whether people thought John Smith would have made a good PM.

To be honest I can't remember too mch about what he stood for, but I do remember being really shocked and saddened by his death. I remember him as being a very decent man, the sort (and this bit's a bit loaded!) that didn't need to say he was a "pretty straight kind of guy" because he was.

Opinions?

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Who ? I can't really remember him .....

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

The Labour leader before Blair took over. John Smith died, then Blair took over.

He seemed to have had a good reputation, as politicians go, but I suppose we'll never know.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Yeah, that's my problem in a way. Can remember what he looks - portly, receding black hair, kindly face - and that he seemed a decent man, but nothing very much about him as a politician.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Oops...was I being too literal? :)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

That's OK, just don't be too liberal :)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Would have been No Nonsense that's for sure.

Seriously, can't remember nuff about the guy, must have only been about 10 when he died or something.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

I think the worst thing that happened was he died and blair became leader.
JS may not have made a good PM, but from what I remember of him he seemed an "honest" politician, or at least much more honest than blair (although that's not hard).

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

I'm pretty sure he didn't support Derby. Would he have got your vote?! ;)











Whisper: They're doing alright the Rams though, arent they? (Sorry, off topic yet again)
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Agreed (now there's a thing! ;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Extra smooth...

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

He'd have been better than Blair.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

I would be better than Blair ;) No, take that wink back, I mean it!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

:erm: :disturbd:

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Anybody would be better than Blair. I'm even starting to think I'd rather have a Tory government than a Liebour one. :(

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Like a pint of John Smiths?!


Actually, being serious for a moment :D in the light of your comment I've decided that once I'm tired of running the country I'm going for Kofi's job. Piece of whatsitsname!
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I don't know what you mean!! :( ;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Although I may not have agreed with his politics and the phrase is a bit of a cliche, I think John Smith is the best Prime Minister we didn't get.

Compared to Foot, Kinnock et al he was moderate and understanding and compared to Blair, well, he was a *Labour* politician...!!!

How he would have done in office, I don't know, but at least we wouldn't have had New Labour.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

John Smith no doubt would have been a good Prime Minister as indeed Michael Foot & Neil Kinnock had they succeeded. But you underestimate and have not understood that Tony Blair and the New Labour project have been and still are remarkably successful. James Callaghan was the most disappointing Labour premier since WW2.

The winning of two general elections with staggering majorities is a record of unique achievement. Consider that the Labour Party of the 80s was a bickering rag bag diminishing in membership and frankly falling apart. The New Labour project has rebuilt and renewed Labour goals. Tony Blair and his team were the first to lead the Labour Party in two successive terms of office, now that is a real achievement. It is still possible that Tony Blair could lead Labour to a third parliamentary victory. Before New Labour took over the Labour was in an extraordinary mess, there was no accurate count of memebrship, no proper modern methods of business in organisation and fund raising. Labour can now quite happily accept donations from TUs and business.

One doesn't need to agree with everything our Prime minister says or does, he has renewed confidence and worked for progress, that this country is now better off than it was in the sad, bitter miserable days of Conservative rule.

Tony Blair has seen off several Conservative leaders. In time history will record him as quite a remarkable figure, yes with faults, he has courage of conviction and despite everything thrown against him, he has remained resilient.

:)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Yes, TB had done a fantastic job of turning people off politics :(

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Whilst taking on your point about the fractured nature of the Labour Party in the 80s the problem with Blair and co is that they've seen off Conservative leaders by out-Torying the Tories (tuition fees, house arrest etc).It's a deliberate strategy imported from the States. Labour is a brand rather than an ideological force in that sense. But I guess lesser of two evils from my point of view, especially as I too can remember those sad, bitter days.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Evidence?
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Out-Torying the Tories?

So the Tories then were in favour of:

The national minimum wage?
The setting up of the Scottish & Welsh assemblies?
The setting up of the Greater London Assembly?
Massive injection of funds into Health, Education, Policing etc, etc?
Getting the unemployed and the unemployable into work?

This is a mere shortlist of achievement. The Tories were opposed to all the above hardly evidence for what you claim.


:)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

LOL,

To be honest I do not think it really matters who is actually prime minister. We will all find something to moan about eventually.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Fair point and as I say lesser of two evils. But tuition fees? That one move made me question just what makes this Government tick ideologically. Profoundly not part of traditional Labour ideology - and we're moving towards selective education in schools now.Then there's the whole Iraq thing (raising a whole raft of Qs). The crapness of adopting the tax credit system (just tax people properly Gordon!) which is a nightmare for many. The idiocy of PFI. The idiocy of foundation hospitals.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

john smith was a scottish bloke that never made it to be prime minister because of an untimely death.
he started the whole new labour and TB just kept it going, JS was changing labour for the good at the time, but no more, especially after the war that should never have been.

ik

EDIT: and yes he would have made a good PM

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Have you seen labour women MP's?
They turn me off! :shocked:

Now the tories, they've got some hot bits of crumpet!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

:Yikes:
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Tuition fees, I understand not in Scotland. OK as I said I don't agree with everything, and I think this should have been discussed more and alternatives explored.

Iraq, sorry but for me at least my hatred and anger against Saddam Hussein and Baath Party rule in Iraq meant I supported the government and parliament's decision, he had to go sooner or later, as it was it was sooner and good ridance. Anyway old ground and events in Iraq have now changed for the better. Only wish for more positive action against mugabe and his gangsters now.

PFI, again sorry but I think there is no room for old fashioned left extremist dogma, screaming Trots & SWPers hate it: too bad. The private sector needs to be involved in reconstruction its good for them and for all.

Foundation hospitals let's see the jury is still out on that, there is also room for the private sector in education, selective education yes we need to have a shake up, we should invest in the best, again there is no room for dogma.

Tax credits? What's the problem?

:)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

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Agreed.

Not suggesting Hussein is a nice kinda guy bit it's the whole false premise and disregard for international law, and disregard for Parliament and us, that got me. And making us a bigger terrorist target for not taking into account the wider Middle Eastern picture.

PFI looks to have been, and continues to be a costly disaster. And one that only has occurred because of a failure to get a grip of the taxation system. Not a Trot by the way ;)

Very much so! ;) The proposals for separation of vocational and non-vocational candidates is a cause for concern.

It's a nightmare of paperwork and reapplication. They've only done it because they think it's politically unacceptable to sort the Income Tax regime out.





Hey, this is like the factionalised 1980s again!! ;) Only messing... I'm on your side, basically :)



EDIT: Xaccers!!!!!!!! :( You know what I'm going to say............................................... .................................................. .......................................... Tories with a capital 'T' :D Oh, and I'm really unsure about your assertion :)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Sorry, but I really don't think either of the latter two *would* have been good in the job. They were nowhere near as impressive as Smith when he was speaking from the Dispatch Box and Blair is nowhere as good as him either.

Blair and New Labour have only succeeded because they stole huge chunks of Tory ideas and repackaged them a bit more to the left (but still right of centre) whilst ditching practically everything to do with what their party had stood for. The Tories lost out because by the end of the Thatcher years they'd gone so far to the right that they'd alienated most of the country.

Ok, I didn't *agree* with what Old Labour stood for, but becoming another Tory party wasn't the best thing for the country and risks us ending up like the USA where you can either vote for the Right Wing party or the *really* Right Wing party!

And 40% of the voters not turning out for the last one is *also* a staggering achievement, but not one that they want to brag about!!

"Renewed"? Totally changed, I think you mean!

Not really, because a lot of that "success" is due to people not wanting to vote the Tories back in again after the disaster that the Thatcher years turned out to be (and Major was just a joke).

Unfortunately picking Michael Howard (architect of the Poll Tax!) as their leader is a serious mistake because a lot of people *do* remember him as being associated with the '80s and they don't want that back again.

The only problem is that the Lib Dems are still not really credible as a political force and they need to get some strong leadership and clearer policies before people will vote for them in a big way.

Regrettably it looks more inevitable than just "possible" but I predict that the next election is going to have the lowest turnout *ever* for a General Election.

"Renewed confidence"? Not in politicians he hasn't! The behaviour of the Government before and during the Iraq war was utterly shameful and all the spin and calls that "we must move on" aren't convincing anybody.

As for "worked for progress", the NHS is in a mess, schools are in a mess, University tuition fees are in a mess, the attempts to foist ID cards are in a mess, asylum and immigration are in a mess, Blair and his bunch have bodged up too many things and if they get in for a third time they're going to end up being viewed in the same light as the Tories in the '80s.

Yes, because frankly they picked a bunch of total incompetants! It's not difficult to win against weak opposition.

Remarkable, yes, but not, I think, for the reasons you suggest!

True, but is that really a *good* thing in a leader? We've seen him time and again ignore public (and his own party's) opinion and plough on regardless because "Tony knows best".

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think he does and a little humility (real, not simulated) and a little less spin and a bit more listening and paying attention would be a good thing.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Strange how people don't go on about breaches of international law when it comes to Kosovo, another military action without UN backing


Mrs T was a hot bit of stuff in her day!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

I'll admit I'll have to do some research there.




Any chance you'll share your stash cos I want some of those drugs your on! ;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Was it that unfunny or has it taken that long for someone to get it? Presume the former...

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Just entirely predictable...!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Steady on chaps! :( ;)



NFFC, you're just trying to score cheap points..... mind you, second from bottom, 23 points adrift from 5th placed Derby, I guess you need to :D :D

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Unfortunately, I was at the time living elsewhere overseas and I can't really comment on John Smith's s skills, so I'll take your word for it.


I have already commented on this earlier but for your sake here we ago again;

Here is a sample list:

Assemblies for Scotland and Wales - Not Tory policy
a Greater London Assembly - Not Tory policy
Massive cash injections and more on the way into health, education and policiing - Not tory policy
a national minimum wage - Not tory policy
schemes to get the unemployed and unemployable back into work,unemployment is down - Not Tory policy

Where on earth you have got the idea that Labour "out Tories the Tories" one can't imagine, it's just nonsense, the evidence is quite the reverse. Even now the Tory's plot to cut billions from public services has been made public.



New Labour has achieved the centre ground and there is no room for old fashioned dogma, New Labour in revising the old clause four, the rejection of dogma this was the right thing to do, there is no room in the Labour Party for the dinosaurs of the militancy tendency and other screaming Trotskyites. I reject accusations of Labour as a right wing party, there is no evidence for that at all.


Statistics vary, some constituencies held up their poll others fell. Looking at the statistics in general the voting electorate has fallen, everyone who believes in democracy should encourage people to use their vote, hopefully the next general election will see a better turnout.

Semantics: renewed = changed. The Labour Party has to adapt policies according to changing situations if it remains stuck in old dogmas it would be unelectable.



Well it does happen and my campaigning experience is sufficient that sometimes people vote or don't vote for all sorts of reasons, sometimes bizaare! That the Labour Party had the sufficient strength and experience to form an alternative government, don't underestimate that there are in fact millions and millions of Labour voters.

Actually, I do have a lot of respect for Michael Howard, he is an able political leader, he's too nice a guy to lead the Conservatives.

Yes, they do have a rather inept and babbling leader, probably Vincent Cable would be a problem for Labour, I'm sure the knives will be out following Liberal defeat in the general election.

Nothing in politics is inevitable, there is a real prospect of a Tory victory as they begin to scrape popular prejudices for their programme they hit the lowest common denominator anything to get votes.




It's a matter of opinion, the war is over, it's out of date now, we should move on and let the Iraq people resolve their issues as they are doing and the terrorists can now be seen as enemies of the people.

I think the NHS is generally doing fine there will always be issues and problems but I think you are underestimating the hard work the the staff and employees of the NHS do. As a teacher in FE and a school governor I can't say I've noticed education in a mess! What's a mess? Everything seems to tick over nicely, staff and students work hard at most schools & colleges. I would agree though there is a need for modernisation, new qualifications, new institutions with new ideas and old ways need to revised.

I don't deny there are problems these are more likely to be sorted under Labour.

Well as for asylum, immigration as I say I don't support everything I think the government should try to be more cautious over these issues. As for ID cards, oh dear, not again, seems things are on the shelf at the moment and one doesn't know what the new government's priorities will be.


William Hague is a tough nut I wouldn't describe him as incompetant! Fact is the Conservatives themselves have been openly split and divided as it seems they still are!


Yes, well it is a matter of opinion but I think History will judge him kindly.

G_d this took ages, I really must shut down and enjoy the sun with the family!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

People suffered the Conservatives for too long for them to vote them back in any time soon. That's the only reason, that and voter apathy, that Tony is in power. Give it a few years, as memories fade, and the Conservatives will start to regain power.

I remember John Smith. I liked him - seemed decent. If I remember rightly, he died suddenly of a heart attack and was buried on Iona.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

"Move on"? You're not Tony Blair in disguise are you? ;)

It is not over, & not out of date. It is still very relevant, whether you think it was right or wrong for us to invade Iraq.

Stuff I mentioned in another thread, which could go here:




Yes, New Labour has done a lot of good. But it's also had a lot of bad ideas.

Still better than the Tories though. But as others have said, there are areas where they try to out-Tory the Tories. e.g. whenever there's a mention of asylum, immigration, Law & Order, terrorism, etc.

Plus, what about the rail network? The Tories privatised it, but New Labour is quite happy to continue to leave it as it is, even though re-nationalising it would make sense, would be cheaper, & would actually be a vote winner.

Connex was stripped from its South Eastern franchise, & that part of the network was brought back into public hands as "South Eastern Trains". Since SET took over, punctuality & reliability have increased, customer satisfaction has increased, & the amount of tax-payer money SET takes in in subsidies has decreased compared to what Connex took, & is less than what the other franchises take. So what does Labour do? Does it think "Hang on, maybe this would work nationwide!" Nope, they actually want to dump it back into private hands asap.

PFI - as Andy said earlier, it seems to be a disaster. And you do not have to be a screaming leftist or a "Trot" to think that.

Also, the Tube & PPP - That's quite a Tory policy, for "New Labour". Took the Tube, & did to it pretty much what the Tories did to BR. Is it working? Not really. Now we just have these companies running it for profit, instead of for the customer, with all the emphasis for them seemingly being on money (which they make a LOT of) rather than safety & reliability.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

And others have pointed out that there are at least an equal number of policies that Labour have introduced that *are* effectively identical to Tory ones.

You can prove anything by selectively picking the evidence.

If your party was left wing and now it "has achieved the centre ground" there is only *one* direction it can have moved in!!

However very few, if any *rose*. Therefore overall it's a drop.

But why? IMO it's because (to quote Rory Bremner) if you have two parties who regularly call the others liars, people are going to believe *both* of them!

Hopefully it will, but I really don't think so.

If they move away their core beliefs to make themselves electable and just go for what's popular (or populist) what is the difference between that and what they are accusing the Tories of doing?!

Whilst I don't think Charles Kennedy is a great leader, I also don't think that the Lib Dems will be "defeated" in the election. I wouldn't be surprised if they pick up a lot of disaffected Tory and Labour voters.

Let's see: the Tories "scrape popular prejudices for their programme they hit the lowest common denominator anything to get votes." but "The Labour Party has to adapt policies according to changing situations".

Do I detect the slightest trace of personal political bias here?!

Oh, my mistake, it wasn't a *slight* trace of personal political bias, it's more like a case of "my party right or wrong"!

The phrases "it's out of date now" and "we should move on" could have come directly from Tony's hymn book.

The war is by *no* means over, people are still dying in Iraq *every day*. The possible lies or fabrications that were told to get us into the war and the truth behind factors such as the Attorney General's changing advice are not something that we can just "move on" from, to try to dismiss them as unimportant is to ignore the good of the country for the sake of party politics.

As for "the terrorists can now be seen as enemies of the people" yes, that's a convenient expression, isn't it? We keep being told of the "terrorist threat" but there seems precious little evidence of what the threat actually *IS*.

As has been discussed in other threads (repeatedly, so let's not get into those again, but the points need to be made) how many people have actually been *convicted* of terrorist acts or even planning such acts? We read stories that there are "up to 200" suspected Al Qaeda terrorists, but if so, why haven't they *done* anything? etc etc

Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt are wonderful political tools.

I don't underestimate their work, but I think it would be better if they were left to *get on* with that work instead of having to faff around with "targets" that seem to be more designed to make the government look good than to actually treat patients.

Sorry, are you *really* saying that basic standards of literacy and numeracy have *not* fallen??

"1 in 5 independent schools fails to meet basic standards

"Many of Britain's independent schools are among the worst in the country, according to the Office for Standards in Education. Figures collected by Ofsted show that up to one in five of independent schools fails to meet basic standards.

"Those giving inspectors cause for concern are the 1,120 independent schools in the country that do not belong to the Independent Schools Council, the body that represents top public schools such as Eton and Harrow, which requires its members to meet specified educational standards before they become members.

"(Independent, 29 April 2003)"


"Ofsted's first overview of LEAs not good news

"The Office for Standards in Education first ever overview of the performance of local education authorities, published in September 2002, is not good news for town halls. Even ignoring the fact that more LEAs (41) were classified as being unsatisfactory or poor than good or very good (29), the starkest fact to emerge from the report is that even well-run authorities are failing to deliver tangible improvement in school standards.

"(Independent, 19 September 2002)"

I think this is another area where the government needs to leave well alone and let those who actually *do* the work get on with their jobs instead of having to meet targets.

Once again it seems "my party right or wrong".

That's something, at least.

I think the only reason those ID card plans are on the shelf is that Labour doesn't want to see them brought up as an election issue because they know that when people find out the truth of what's involved, they're going to change their minds drastically about the value of them.

My indendent political opinion on that differs somewhat.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

On the out-Torying the Tories, have a read of Nick Cohen's book which looks at how New Labour imported 'triangulation' from the States. The basic tenet is that you neutralise the opposition by pre-empting and matching or exceeding their political initiatives. An interesting read - but can't remember what it's called.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Graham, I don't have the time for any detailed responses:


1. The Labour Party has always fought for the middle ground, except when T. Benn & M. Foot were involved in the 80s and we had the worst election result since WW2, generally centre left but not extreme left.

2. Yes, I admit I am politically biased. Who grassed?

3. You accuse me of selecting evidence - guilty. It was only a shortlist of important policies to demonstrate that the Labour Party is not "out Torying the Tories" what an ugly phrase!


4. Election statistics no argument. My point is that it is the duty of all who active in politics to stress the importance of voting and the election process, rather than being negative let's be positive.

5. Why on earth do you worry about who calls the other liars, it's all part of the fun of political life. We have noticed the Liberals are just the same, spend their time negatively criticising the other parties and avoiding debates on the real issues.

6. Charles K a great leader - pull the other one! Are you trying to convince yourself?

7. Party right or wrong, never said or implied, fact is the war is hardly ever mentioned on the doorstep or during 'phone canvassing. Most voters are concerned about bread & butter issues.

8. On public services generally: nothing is perfect nothing or can ever be perfect, of course there are going to be problems, organisations as large as the NHS or on a smaller scale schools are going to have problems. Your references to the independent school sector, I'm sure those schools involved will be or have addressed issues mentioned. You quote a report two years old, please try harder.


9. Actually, bold new iniatives are needed. One example, I'm willing to let city academies perform let's wait and see the results.


You are as a citizen free to believe what you wish, I like to be positive about life and the universe, I have nothing further to add: too busy.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

City Academies? Noooooooooooooo!!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

That's a matter of (political) opinion, but I'll pass on that.

"Fun"??? It's that "fun" and the farce that is PMQs etc which is what IMO is turning people *off* politics. When you see the leaders and major figures of the main parties squabbling like children in the playground, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence!

Except that the "real issues" are the ones that the other two parties want to talk about, which aren't necessarily what people are interested in!

To me it looks like the Lib Dems are the only ones making an effort to have a reasonable discussion instead of just saying "This is the party line, deal with it".

Err, what? Try reading it again: "Whilst I don't think Charles Kennedy is a great leader..."

But is that because people don't care, or because the government is trying to bury it and the Tories (who went along with it) are complicit in this?

This sounds like more "government speak". These aren't *minor* problems, they're *major* failings. Try asking staff in the medical professions whether they'd prefer to treat patients or worry about waiting list figures.

When patients are treated according to how quickly they can be got off the lists rather than medical need, something has gone very wrong. And it's *not* the staff's fault because they're being forced into it by ill thought out policies designed to make the government look good.

Oh, I see, because it's two years old, it's no longer valid? Get real! Education is something that happens for at least *SIXTEEN* years of a child's life. Our governments have raised a *generation* whose skills are nothing like what they should be.

And petty sniping comments like "please try harder" don't make your arguments any more credible.

"A teachers' leader says his union has hardened its opposition to government plans for 200 city academies"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4348931.stm

This is a *union* (you know, the people who the Labour Party was formed to represent!) disagreeing with government policy. These are *teachers* who don't think these "city academies" are a good idea.

"Bold new initiatives" like this are great for getting headlines, but they allow any problems to be shunted years into the future when someone else will have to deal with them.

Oh, and *I* don't like to be positive about life and the universe? Nope, I think you're wrong there.

However I also don't wear rose tinted spectacles or think that the sun shines out of a certain political leader's fundamental orifice. I look at *all* the evidence, not just that which agrees with what I think.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Rather too busy for all this.

But if you do look at all the evidence you might consider that your reference to the NUT annual conference begs the question whether you have considered the well known fact that the NUT annual conference tends to be well oil by the SWP and their allies. Therefore one finds it difficult to take the confernece seriously. In addition the NUT is not affiliated to the Labour Party.

I do not wear rose tinted spectacles and neither do I think the sunshines out of whatever. You obviously don't read what I write.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Red rose tinted spectacles? :D

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Whilst I'm finding this whole discussion immensely enjoyable, I can't help noticing we have drifted rather quickly from the key question, 'would John Smith have made a good PM?'

;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

A very fair point.... but of course the left and centre left always put a good internal scrap before the wider issues! I include myself in that, of course. Personally I find it interesting that as the election campaign progresses I'm becoming more and more supportive of the Government, but that that has more to do with the Opposition than the current administration. That, to me at least, is a telling indictment of the Govt and - ta-ra, sound of fanfare - from my limited memory of John Smith I can't have seen that having happened under his leadership. Of course I probably have my rose tinted spex on now!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Regarding PFI. It's a good idea (in theory). However, it has one major flaw (the same one shared by privatisation). It relies too heavily on the companies doing the work being fair and honest.

I am not on some anti-corporate rant, but in my experience, the companies that provide services will make a profit out of them any way they can. Some companies WILL overcharge if they have the opportunity to, and this DOES happen. For instance, when I worked for our local hospital, we were paying £500 a day for fruit and vegatables (from a large trade greengrocer). I could have got the same selection fruit and veg (but better quality) for less than £300 a day at Sainsbury's. As any greengrocer will tell you, Sainsbury's do not provide the best quality fruit and veg either).

The point I am making is with privatisation (and with PFI according to friends I know who still work there) is that the contracts granted are often too open to abuse. A lot of companies do not abuse their contract. However, enough do that it is causing major financial problems.

Anyway, back on topic. Would John Smith have made a good Prime Minister? I don't know. He did create the whole "New Labour" thing, but is Tony Blair just carrying on with his policies, or creating new ones of his own?

One thing is for sure. He would have made a better PM than either John Major or Tony Blair.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Excuse me? Because they have different political affiliations and beliefs, you can't take them seriously and you dismiss their opinions out of hand??

*That* says a lot about politics and the political process in this country!!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Not really, it shows you know nothing in regard to politics within trade union branches or how organisations like the SWP and the extreme left work.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

And, of course, those ways are *completely* different from the ways that political parties or business "empires" or any other such group or organisation work?! :rofl:

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

It's not just the NUT who think City Academies aren't such a good idea....

http://education.guardian.co.uk/news...417701,00.html



http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/st...447766,00.html

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:erm: :angel:

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Chris, you're just a pinko lefty Grauniad reader. No room for those on this forum :D









Could we set up our own?!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Possibly a new thread in its own right but for all you PFI fans out there:


"The part-privatisation of the Tube has cost taxpayers almost £1bn, according to a House of Commons Public Accounts Committee report.
It also said maintaining and upgrading the network will cost £450m more than if finance came from government loans.

Under the deal the Public Private Partnership (PPP) firms do not have to end maintenance backlog until 2026 or complete some upgrade work until 2015."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4395621.stm

I know, kinda off topic but PFI has been raised here.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

You must be joking :) There's only a handful of people there who would dare mention their beliefs as centrist, or right... Almost everyone on here seems to be at least a mid leftie! (And yes I was suprised at the apparently high proportion of support for Tories in the poll, but if you count LibDems and Labour together as they are both on the left, its higher.).

As we are in the minority, we deserve the positive discrimination, special treatment, etc ;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

I'm imagining all that liberal baiting and bashing then? ;) CF is the Monday Club Online!

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Ditto with the conservative/centrist bashing. Put it this way, I certainly don't feel like I am ever in the majority with my political opinions (unless it happens to be on the left.)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Maybe we're both paranoid. I know for certain they're out to get me ;)

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

:rofl: Well, the grass always looks greener.... doesn't it? I have always thought thought, strength in numbers and all that, if I spouted that Bush=Hitler stuff at least i'd have Graham and BBKing to hide behind

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Coming late into the discussion

He's dead, if he was alive he would never have been PM, who cares?

Sorry, that wasn't a constructive post.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Fascinating subject City Academies, probably better taken up in another thread.

It's always a good thing I believe to always consider new ideas and ways to move forward in regards to education. City Academies need to be given time and of course whilst there are teachers who have reservations there are also teachers working within them. Teachers can be surprisingly conservative, there are exceptions, and do not welcome change in any form.


I was living and working overeas from the late 1980s and therefore I don't know much about John Smith, one always has to recall that the Labour Party was in an awful mess in the 1980s, it was at rock bottom. Kinnock's war on the Militant Tendency made a contribution to restoring Labour as an effective political party, John Smith may have indeed made a good premier, we shall never know.
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When it comes to trade union grassroots politics I doubt you know much.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

When it comes to human nature, empire building and the tendency to try to achieve power by climbing on the backs of others, I think I know quite enough!

For you to suggest that there is, somehow, some sort of distinction between those and Trade Union branches/ the SWP etc without anything to back that assertion up, is not very convincing.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

Sometimes evidence is not in neat compartments for research purposes. I know these matters because of personal experience as once upon a time I was a regional officer for a teacher's union, therefore I have had real experience of just how the extreme left in trade unions work. You might however get some idea if just google swp teachers etc.

Re: Would John Smith Have Made A Good PM?
 

And I think that these are not exclusive to the SWP/ trade unions etc and you'd find similar tactics/ methods used in many other organisations.