Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4376041.stm

Hard to swallow this report when one considers that half of the committee that produced it refuse to put their names to it... :(

From what I can gather they want to abolish all the present regulations surrounding this issue and leave it up to Doctors and their patients...

I'm dubious about the reasoning myself.

and in answer to that old chestnut that it should be ok for a couple who have 2,3,4,5 boys and should be able to choose to have a girl I say they should be thankful to have 2,3,4,5 healthy children myself.... :rolleyes:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Why do we Have to play God?

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Because we can? :erm:

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But its so very wrong.........:dozey: :(

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Well - after 4 miscarriages - all I can say is that buxom woman and I couldn't give a **** if it was a boy or girl.

I would have thought the focus would be on the health of the woman/child. Not what sex it will be.

I'm all for choice - but this takes the smeg as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I think it is wrong that we should be doing this. Certain cultures favour one gender over another. Those genders will flourish.

I tend to think that for reproduction to occur naturally, we need a balance between men and women. Nature can maintain that balance quite effectively without Man interfering.

I just think if they allow people to chose the gender of their babies, it will cause problems in the future.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Yeah, because between them, doctors and patiens know best: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...cs/4354469.stm

Be thankful for all your kids, healthy or otherwise. Irrespective, they will give you joy and sorrow in large measure - boy or girl.
__________________

There's a lot that we can, but it doesn't mean we should.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I'm not sure after reading that where I stand, I'm all for choice and science, and yes, given the need I would probably say go for it, what does / will the future hold for mankind, when we are starting to mess with the sex of unborn babies ?? could we see a nanny state of the future saying that you will have one boy and one girl per family unit ???
You may laugh, but its going to happen sooner or later, is it China with its 1 child per family rule ( I think so, can't remember ) all wanting boys and killing / selling daughters, and thats now, what will they do given this breakthrough ? all opt for boys ?? if so how will the Chinese population survive / continue to populate itself :shrug:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I just think it is so sad, me and paulyoung666 have had 2 misscarraiges, each time a girl. We already have 2 boys Jacky splat and Conn bonn but we really wanted another one, but to betold im sorry but your female gene is faulty and you will never have a girl is shattering. In the end Paul ended being done as he could not see me in pain anylonger.
Do I still yearn for a girl??? Yes I do,Paul has two boys who look up to him, I would like a girl, so I can be there for her when she has girly problems and going shopping when she is older.
but it is gods will, if I aint meant to have a girl I must accept my fate and get on with. And bop it is china that only has the 1 child rule, which is stupid in todays society!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

First gender,

Then hair colour

Eye colour

intelligence

Isn't this what Mengler wanted to do?

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I could not do it, it is wrong!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

as regards the China situation it was a reaction to over population.I don't say it is right but it is understandable. :erm:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

So if you lived in China and you had a girl you would sell it even though you have carried it for 9months?? I am sorry but I couldnt, if they want to do that ill, adopt one!! I saw picture last year of a baby girl lying in the gutter dying, that made me sick, I would hang the parents for that!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

No, we can't. To quote Dickie Attenborough in Jurrasic Park, life will always find a way. We have this arrogant and almost offensive belief that we are intelligent enough to take the most powerful force in the universe. I imagine the desire for a child to some couples is strong but the greater good must be looked at - we are tampering with forces which we do not (and probably will never) fully understand.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Not right, but understandable ....... mmmmmmmmmmm, so if there was a sudden imbalance of one sex or another would it be understandable then to mess with the sex of babies :shrug:

Not to cause an arguement, just asking :tu:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

No it is gods way , if you are meant to have a girl, then get on with it, do not medal with nature!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

If there was such an imbalance then it would be for a reason.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

(This isn't coming from a Neil-The-Hippy standpoint, but a scientist.) Nature exists in cycles and equilbria. If you go against her then she'll do something to redress the balance (and she'll always win). If the world became disproportionately high with males, or females, then a gender specific disease would come out.

The world is designed to have an equal number of male and female occupants. Who are a load of men going to breed with, without women?

Besides, I doubt genetic selection would ever get so out of control. Might do, but unlikely.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

So reasonable to say that if it came down to it, a lot of people would change their standpoint on this :shrug: Interesting, isn't having, as Coggy said about having, 2,3,4, or 5 boys and wanting a girl, isn't that reason enough for said couple ? In their eyes I suppose it would be. A 2,3,4, or 5 to 0 imbalance on their side is a BIG reason, IMO.

NOOOOOOOOOO, resist the urge ;) serious debate :tu:
It was just a hyperthetical what if type thing, I don't see it happening either.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Just because we can does not mean we should.

I can murder someone but I shouldn't....etc

I don't think this should be allowed with the exception of avoiding gender specific diseases/malformations and even then with heavy regulating.

The problem with opening a door slowly is that the door can be opened bit by bit until it is open completely almost without anyone noticing. Give it ten years and we may find it OK as a society to have full designer babies choosing hair colour and whether it lives or dies.....just because we can...!

I believe we need a certain amount of metering or governance to help society from becoming anarchistic due to our sincere belief that we are promoting freedom...

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

We don't HAVE to play God but but the arrogance of man means that we no doubt will :( Nobody should have the right to choose what sex their child is, some things should be left to nature and this is one of them.
As has been stated in this thread if too many people start choosing male over female we'll have the Alaska syndrome where males are outnumbered 4-1 (don't quote me on that figure) but it would stop a certain group of people aborting babies as soon as they realise they are having girls. Obviously if they continued to do this then their race would soon see a massive decrease in numbers but then it might serve as a wake up call if that happened and they may start acknowledging that female children are just as special as male ;)

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

What about changing the sex of the child born to take away the risk of it being born with congenital dissorders that normally only males can be born with? A large number of cengenital dissorders do only effect one gender (normally male) and this could be avoided simply by making your child a girl.

Any reason other than medical and it becomes imoral IMO but dont even try and say that its gods will or life will find a way, that may be your belief and thats fine but using that as a reason not to allow this is just the same as forcing your belief on the masses (well it would be if that was the reasoning that leads to the ban being made permanent).

And life will find a way? Does that mean our offspring will become pondering 50ft long meat-eating reptiles? :Yikes: just kidding :)

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Endocrine disrupting toxins? i.e man made pollution?

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I come from a large family, I have three brothers and one sister, my mum had twins, a boy and a girl & it was totally natural & wouldn't of wanted it to be any other way.

The twins were born last and I was 9 years old when my mum gave birth to them, yet I remember, I longed for a sister just as much as my mum and dad longed for a daughter. The day they were born, was one of the happiest days the whole family had ever lived.

I am trying to think of the potential, psychological, long term damage this might do to someone should they discover their sex was pre-selected before they were born.

Reminds me very much of the film Gattaca, a film about advanced genetic engineering, that makes it possible for the creation of biologically superior human specimens known in the film as 'valids', who then grow to positions of power and prestige. Whilst those born the old-fashioned way are treated with prejudice and treated as rejects and given the crap left-over jobs.

Let's hope we won't ever come close to this way of thinking in the future, but looking back at this subject of choosing to have a boy or a girl, we are on that path already it seems. :td:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

As I understand it, Gender selection is already allowed for medical reasons.

I have to admit, I don't think it will be a massive problem, as most people will probably just be happy to have a kid, but there are certain groups who value one gender over another.

I will say, however, that I do think Nature will act to correct any imbalance caused by this, and we may not like the results of that.

Another thing. I believe several people have misinterpreted Incog's posts in this thread. When she talked about China (although I don't think she actually bought the subject up) and the 1 family, 1 child rule, I got the impression that while she understood the reasoning behind the rule (in places, China is massively overpopulated), she didn't agree with it.

I also got the impression that she doesn't agree with Gender Selection (although people seem to think she does).

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Im a twin and if my mum had decided to make my sister a brother, I would have bloddy killed her, do not mess with nature, as stated above there is a reason for all this and it is the gene pool, if you muck with the gene pool you are messing with nature!!!!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

as in carriers of certain diseases/disorders and the likely hood of being passed on depending on gender.

e.g.

A carrier female of an X-linked condition may pass on either of her X chromosomes to her children. On average, half of her sons will be affected, and half of her sons will not be affected. Half of her daughters will be carriers, and half will not be carriers and therefore will have no chance of having a child with the condition.

In that case, statisically it would be safer to have a girl because she would definitely not get the condition itself and would stand a 50% chance of being a carrier of the condition.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I can't see the problem tbh. It's up to the propesctive parents and the guidance of the consultant to decide. Who are we to tell someone else who desperately wants, say, a baby girl 'tough titties, you'll get what you're given like it or lump it?'

I personally would love a baby, and wouldnt give a monkies about the sex of it. But that's me - and my wants and needs do not suit everyone. :shrug:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

i was like that I did not care as long it was fit and healthy, playing god is wrong, what ever next!!!!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I wasn't actually arguing that Gender selection should not be allowed at all. I can see the sense in Gender selection if there is a valid medical reason. I just don't think we should be encouraging it otherwise.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I wouldn't care, but I don't think it's wrong that others do either. Live and let live. I don't think it's playing God (as I am not a believer). I think it's progressive science.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Both my sons have Asthma and various other illnesses, But dont you think that later in life that these genes can become faulty, thus eventually getting certain diseases such as asthma, copd , renal failure. And if a person decides to abuse a perfectly designed body, dont you think the GMC will be pretty miffed, you cannot programme a persons mind to say: you will not drink and you will not smoke. Just because you desgin a baby it does not mean that the baby will delivered without a faulty gene, with perfection there is often imperfection I am sad to say.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

I agree with orangebird.
Also--it will happen......it's just a matter of time. I don't see whats wrong with selecting sex (or for that matter, hair/eye colour). Saying that we are playing god isn't exactly a rational argument against it. Saying that it's against nature isn't an argument either. Thats just expressing wooly sentiments.
*kevlar flame proof suit on* :erm:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

look at the end of the day when you go and make a baby all the frameworks are there, it is going to be like when you take a top back to a shop becasue you do not like the color, come on, so you mean to tell me you would change yourself if you had the chance, Im bloody sure I wouldnt and Im only 5.1 tall!!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

And perhaps simply have a carrier instead? (Since in those very same conditions you mention a woman can often be a non-symptomatic carrier)

I don't see the advantage of that at all - just means it pops up again later somewhere else.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

:tu: :tu:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Would I change myself?......Absolutely!
For starters, I would love to have been given that gene that protects some of us from flu/colds/hiv............a greater proportion of fast twitch muscle fibers..........better memory..........stronger muscles.........denser bones.........greater resistance to osteoarthritis.
The list goes on.......I'm very happy with what I have got (thank you God/Allah/my parents) but there is always room for improvement.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Yo! Speak for yourself! ;)

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I know you weren't.
I was just adding some facts to support your statement in case anyone else asked precisely what medical reasons one would need in order to request a specific gender.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

osteoathritis os a disease which evolves from a faulty gene and it is very hard to detect in the very early stages, If you had gene that could immunise you against the above, it simply would not work becasue eventually your body starts to fail as you get older and you will have lost your immunity, so you would not have had immunity built up from years ago, which is how your immuine system is built up, you would die bascially. The rest you need to join a gym and then you can delvop greater reflexes and study as this is the only way you will devlop a greater memory. Cheating never does anyone any good and eventuallly it all goes wrong

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Ok, heres how it would go.....
Situation 1: have a boy with a 50/50 chance of getting it (if he has it he will also be a carrier) If he does have the dissorder he will have either a difficult life or a normal one cut short when the dissorder finally cuts in.

Situation 2: Have a girl who lives a perfectly normal LONG life (providing no unforseen circumstances) who still has the same odds of inheriting the gene as a male sibling but whom will never suffer from it.

I know wich I would choose ;) And I would say not suffering with the dissorder would be one big advantage, wouldnt you?

Though when further gene manipulation becomes possible it would be possible to irradicate any genetic dissorder thus rendering the medical need to choose gender null and void.
__________________

I have been trying to think of the name of that film all day, thank you (green rep on the way).
And yes I agree, this is when it becomes immoral, when a true designer baby becomes possible.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

What reason is there for people to choose the gender of their children? I have every confidence in scientific development, but unless you have very specific circumstances (of which I can't even think of an example) choosing the sex of a baby doesn't benefit the child or greater society.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Like I have already said, only more gracefully ;)
__________________

See above

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

No people who pick the gender of their child is shallow, I would have loved girl, but I would not waste my time or money on something like this, Majority of alements lay dormant untill something triggers such as stress, you cannot change that. I am sorry to say what you get is what you have got so get on with it!!!!

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

In your opinion....

For some peolpe it goes deeper than just want...for some it's desperation, and that they maybe DO have the time and money. And you can't trigger an ailment that's not there in the first place.

PS - Don't take this the wrong but, you're a nurse and you can't spell ailment?? :erm:

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

Unless I've misinterpreted what you meant, that is simply not true. We are not talking about ailments. We are talking about some quite horrific disorders already known to be carried a parent(s) which can be prevented or at least lessen the chance of being passed on by being able to determine the gender of the child. In those cases I see no problem with gender selection.
It is much better to determine gender at IVF and know that for example, in X-linked conditions, a girl would not be affected by the condition or would stand a 50% chance of being just another carrier. That's better than taking a 50% risk of having a child that has a 50% risk of being affected with the actual condition itself.
I do agree with you that choice of gender on just a whim is not the right thing.

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

again i think we have hit on a very emotive subject.... already we have seen some emotive responses just in this thread.... i am not belittling them before anyone flames me, but simply pointing out they are there.
conceiving a child is, and always will be, an emotive subject, i watched the itv programme about IVF the other week ("precisious babies") and i admit it actually made me cry..... watching the effect it has on someone on whether they can have a child or not is upsetting. my reason for going into this? well i think there was a lot of contraversy about IVF when it first got introduced, now there are thousands of people on the waiting list.... i think if you ask a lot of these people whether they would want to choose the gender of their child then i think they would say what coggy illustrated in her first post, that as long as the child was healthy they wouldn't mind.

i think that the problems which could occur due to people being able to choose the gender of their child would be that the IVF waiting list would get longer (from those wanting to have a certain gender)... so those waiting desprately to have a child would have to wait longer...

my personal opinion on this topic is that it is wrong.... i think that we should not muck around with nature. futhermore it could lead us on a slippery slope of "designer babies" (an issue i seem to remember debating on either here or .com)..as mick has already pointed out it puts me in mind of films like gatacca (can't spell it.... )

i could waffle on for hours on my opinions on this matter, and the inter linked issues, but i won't bore you all.

also can i point out everything i've said is opinion :)

Re: Boy or Girl or chimera?
 

In any debate on morality, there are always examples that seem to support the 'lesser' (for want of a way of describing it in a neutral manner) choice.

There is also Situation 3: Don't have a child.

Since in this case we're talking of something we know there is a chance of (rather than an unexpected illness) there are further choices.

It is pointless debating the issue on the premise that the only options are 'total freedom to choose for whatever reason at all', or 'no choice' - because that kind of polarisation doesn't actually explore the issues.
So even if your example is a good reason why it should be allowed, doesn't mean that it should therefore be allowed in every instance.

It certainly sounds like an open-and-shut argument, since I would have to be a monster to suggest otherwise.

In some cases there is already an option of genetic screening - that way you'd be looking (I would have thought) for an embryo that has neither the disease or carries the genes - best of both worlds?
However that leads us to a completely different, if not unrelated debate.

An interesting quote from the original article:

Quote:

Josephine Quintavalle, speaking on behalf of Comment on Reproductive Ethics (CORE),said: "There is absolutely no way that the public in the United Kingdom is in favour of designer babies, social sex selection, animal-human hybrids, human reproductive cloning, or any other brave new world proposal."

BTW - in the above I think that genetic selection embryos AND selection of an embryo with a view to tissue matching with a sibling (e.g. for transplant etc.) are both in the 'designer baby' category.

__________________

So what is your limit of acceptability?

Depends on your views on God. If you were to believe in His role in these matters then, quite rationally, it would equate to trying to be like God.

Don't know about 'woolly sentiments', but since the humans doing this stuff are part of nature, then maybeit isn't against nature? However, we are tinkering with the stuff of life, without really understanding what we're doing or what effects it may have.

Obviously, without research we'd never know, so as the genie is out of the bottle anyway, I certainly think that intelligent, ethical research is necessary - there just seem to be so many scientists prepared to run before they can walk. That may be because they realise it will take many years (probably more than their lifetime) for this science to fully develop, and they feel they ought to do what they think they can, while they can.