Sword Man shot dead...
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/4371071.stm

What is wrong with the world today?

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

ah, so he had a sword... i saw this on sky news earlier on, before they released any details. it just said then that they shot a man with baton rounds and then a bullet...

makes you wonder who is letting these people out of the asylums... :erm:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Interesting read, why were armed police despatched just because someone was driving the wrong way ?? Is this the norm or were they tipped off / knew the man had a weapon ? It also says the investigation into the shooting would establish IF the man was carrying the sword IF ??
Surely the armed police would have spotted it, something's not right here IMO that is, me thinks there's more to this story.

:notopic: ish, the other night on the way back from work in the wee small hours, we stopped at a kebab shop in a rough area of Leeds, we were on the way out of the shop when a guy who had been in 5 minutes earlier came back in with a 3 foot samurai sword,:Yikes: what did we do, got in the van a drove off, wadda ya think :shrug: ;)

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Maybe the guy was on his way to a fancy dress party and got lost. so no more speeding for me ive got children to care for

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

These stories make me wonder how the police should handle situations like this. I believe that, judging by the sketchy details, they did the right thing; but some liberal-minded people will always appear and claim they have overreacted. It does sound a bit odd though... anyone know any more details?

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Actually, I'm a normally liberally minded person, but I think that if, as reported, the Police even had a suspicion of weapons at the scene, then they SHOULD have sent armed officers in.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Don't worry, it wasn't a dig at anyone in particular! I have no problem with liberals, they tend to balance out some more extreme views. But I agree, although there is always someone that claims the action was too severe. I would rather thay did send in armed police; looked what happened with the axeman in London.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Now thats what I'm on about, there wasn't a scene, atfirst it was a report of a vehicle driving the wrong way, if you read the report again like I have it doesn't ring true, not in my view anyway. It might be just be me though :shrug:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

You never know, it could be that someone saw him earlier with a weapon, or maybe he's been having problems and his family might have reported that he went out with a sword.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Thats what I mean, as per my post #3 in this thread, I think there's more to this story than they're letting on.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

I sometimes carry a semi-live 3 foot sword to and from tai-chi (though I tend not to go to the chip shop with it :disturbd: ........got a nice bag for my swords now

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Maybe the armed officers were the only free police unit.
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You would imagine you would drop it if you were warned by police though! Or at least when a plastic bullet hit you.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Humberside Police were not saying anything this morning on the radio but I know people who got delayed by this coming over the Bridge this morning.

Does anyone know what it was about yet?

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

only what has been on the news, it must have caused chaos on the roads, though, as the A63 is the only west/east road into/out of Hull & the main route between the Humber Bridge & the City. Normally it carries a very large volume of traffic...

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

What a strange tale.
No reasons given for the armed police. Failed to stop a man with baton rounds? Must have missed him then.

I still think it rich that if you or I were to use deadly force, we'd be expected to show imminent danger to ourselves. A man approaching a bunch of armed coppers with a sword is not quite the same as if he came after me on a dark night.

I'm not convinced that the police always have to follow their 'shoot to kill' policy in these circumstances - seems like they don't use police dogs for what they are trained any more. And I would have thought that this situation was ideal for the use of a taser.

Having actually killed the guy, he's no longer in any position to explain his actions, so we'll probably never be any the wiser what drives these people, since 'suicide by cop' seems to be very effective.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Apparently, according to other news sources (Sky News I think I saw today), the bloke was trying to get in somones vehicle after they fired the baton rounds so they shot him. They shot him or at him several times according to witnesses at the scene.
I'm sure more will come to light soon.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Now there is an interesting / intreaging idea / angle...

But like you say, I guess we will never know.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

According to our local news, the armed police were called after the guy crashed his van and then started to try to hijak another vehicle, while brandishing the sword.

Apparently he was confronting the Police, when the baton rounds were fired, but he got up & continued towards them, ignoring warnings and was then shot...

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

The armed police tend to be gun-ho ex-squaddies who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. The shoot to kill policy is based on the claimed inaccuracy of the weapons - i.e. can't hit an arm so have to aim for the torso. Hmmm. Christ. They shot a bloke with a sword :no: It's like Indiana Jones only not as funny.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

I don't understand why they can't just use non-lethal weapons to incapacitate people.


Tasers, stun guns, *something* other than a load of bullets.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Yeah, on the face of it, it sounds a bit daft.
I wonder couldn't they just go right up to the guy, a few feet out of swords range, and then taser him or shoot him in both legs virtually at point blank? (or are the "marksmen" so useless that they can't even do that?).
Then again, we don't know all the facts of the case yet.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Aren't likely to neither. Bloke has sword, police have guns - fairly obvious who's going to walk away alive.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

The old addage of taking a knife to a gunfight...


I have seen the police walking around with guns, and I wouldn't trust them to not shoot themselves, they should learn from the US police...

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

You aim for an arm, but just as you pull the trigger the bloke moves it. The bullet flies on its merry way and hits some poor sucker in the background who was in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Maybe after so many of these sword attacks in recent years it is now time for the police to review their tactics.
Perhaps, instead of police marksmen, they should start employing police swordsmen. :ninja: :Yikes:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Yeah the people who were not slaughtered while having their cars hijacked....

Maybe just maybe they did the right thing....

Why not wait until you know what happened before using this as a stick to beat coppers with.

So what percentage of armed Police are "gun-ho ex-squaddies" then?? :rolleyes:

Our armed Police are among the safest, well trained and internationally revereed in the world.

I'm not claiming everything they do is spot on but you would be hard pressed to find better. I'd be rather glad to have them "on scene" if the sword was heading for my family in one of those cars.
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:Yikes: :Yikes: :Yikes:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Ok, answers on a point for point basis....

1) Why not get up close and taser him or shoot him in the legs? I'll tell you why, no-one (police/squaddie etc) will get too close to a nutcase with a bladed weapon. You try it, within a couple of feet and concentrating to put a round in someones legs? Stop watching Hollywood movies ffs.

2) (or are the marksmen so useless they cant even do that?). Ok, some facts about guns (or more correctly the Heckler and Kock MP5, which most British Police Forces use for Armed Responce Teams). The MP5 fires a 9mm parabellum round in excess of 350 meters per second. In tests when the British Army first bought this weapon, it was found that Military Ball rounds fire from this weapon had a nasty habit of causing *through-and-through wounds*. Namely that the round could, unless it hit a large bone, pass right through a human body, including the torso. Consider also the fact that the police, in a similar manner to soldier are taught to aim at the largest mass of the human body, namely *The Torso*. So combine training with the ballistics of modern firearms and the rounds they fire, and the ''safest'' option is to put two rounds (double tap) in the targets chest, and if you are really, really good a third in the targets head. In less than ONE SECOND, while under stress.

And I have a question for you. Have you ever had to ''put it on the line'' and draw down on another human being?

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Too Close? A sword has a range of a few feet. Police tasers have a ranges up to 20ft.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Tasers are a good thing, in my opinion. But again, the type of taser you refer to involves aiming and firing. Now, what if the police miss their moving target? What if they hit the person in the car? What if the swordsman then hacks wildly and kills/maims someone? Tasers are great in the right situation; I don't think this would have been the right situation.

In this case, with only a paucity of facts available right now, I think they handled it right. One could say "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword", but I guess we shall never know exactly how far he would have gone with it. As for the American Police, there is a running joke over there about our Police. Theirs shout "Stop, or I'll shoot"; ours say "Stop, or I'll shout "Stop" again". There's a comparison for you.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

And maybe the Police were 100ft away witnessing aggression towards an intended victim only feet away from his blade and getting closer by the second....

Maybe the cop you assume incompetent was a savior.....

Why not wait for the facts before telling them how to do it?? :rolleyes:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

That's not fair on the Police. As has been stated before, we do not know the full facts of the situation.

You also appear to be under the assumption that the Police send armed officers everywhere. They don't. The procedure they have to go through to send an armed unit out is long, and complicated. It is deliberately designed to be long and complicated, specifically so they DON'T send out the armed units unecessarily. As a rule, in the past anyway, our Police have preferred to negotiate their way out of a situation such as this. I have a friend who's father drove one of the Police's Armed Response Vehicles, and got this from him.

Also, bear in mind that, even if you are trained to do so, killing someone is not an easy thing to get over, and is not done lightly. They *are* trained to kill someone if they believe either a member of the public, themselves, or another police officer are in danger though.

I have also read reports that back up EoB's post. It is (apparently*) almost impossible to hit a small target such as an arm in a situation like that. There are too many variables to take account of (e.g. Wind can knock bullets slightly off course or the person being shot may move) . Hollywood likes us to think otherwise, but then Hollywood likes us to think that every cop can shoot out the tires of a moving car, despite that being almost impossible too, hence the real police using things such as Stingers.

I find it amazing that several people have questioned why the Police shot a guy, but no one seems to be asking why that guy was wandering up and down a dual carriageway waving a sword and threatening people.

For the record, while I don't generally agree with the use of guns (see my previous posts on this forum and .com for proof of that), they do have a use. Based on the stories I have read, I believe that the Police were right to use them on this occasion.

One final point. The police had already tried to pacify him. They initially fired Baton rounds. These, as I understand them, are large plastic bullets designed to incapacitate, but not kill whoever they are shot at. These had NO EFFECT on the guy.

* Note, I have never actually fired a real gun myself, so am basing this on what I have read. I have fired Paintball guns a few times, and know from experience that wind can knock your aim off, and have been told it can affect bullets in the same way.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Tell you what, I'll get the lend of my mates Bokken, I'll find something to represent a Tazer. Then standing 20 feet apart, I'll go for you. If you hit me I stop, if you miss I'll clatter you with the Bokken. I know its hardly a scientific experiment, but it *will* give you an idea what its like to have to aim, and fire at a live target. :rolleyes:

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

What a load of ********

He's crashed his vehicle, he's then trying to hijack another vehicle whilst brandishing a sword.

He fired upon wityh baton rounds, whilst no doubt being informed that there are armed police and he should put the sword down and lie on the ground and he decides to continue towards the armed police with the sword.

Stupid ****** got what he deserved

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

MP5's although accurate, are not sniper rifles, they are machine pistols, basically high capacity magazined fully automatic pistols (I don't know if they police have full auto versions, didn't get a close enough look last time I was at heathrow)
They have an effective range of about 50m, but it would be a very lucky shot to hit someone moving in the arm at range.
Some forces have been issued with G36's (ala Alien V Preditor) but again, aren't likely to be fitted with sniper scopes and even so, hitting someone at range in the arm doesn't take out the threat, they can still keep coming, potentially keep killing, especially if baton rounds didn't stop them!

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

AFAIK, all British Police Forces use the carbine version of the MP5 (semi-automatic only).

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

I thought this sounded like a person under the influence of drugs and then that's what I read in today's paper - that there's a suspicion of drugs involved.

Anyone who drives the wrong way down a road and then trys to hijack a vehicle using a sword deserves to be shot dead in my opinion.

Re: Sword Man shot dead...
 

Well you could probably at least make the assumption that they are not of sound mind...