*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.
 

hi everybody



I'm currently thinking of getting ntl broadband because the ISP i'm with now says that i cant get a 1mb account (something to do with the local BT exchange :confused: ). Anyways back to ntl, i've heard the cap limit is 1GB a day for the 750 account, i know downloading affects the limit (duh), but does uploading data affect this cap limitation? anyone care to shed some light on this

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Uploading doesn't affect it and there is (currently) no hard cap. The only time you would be contacted is if you constantly go well over the limit.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Thanks for the quick reply this clears things up a bit, btw whats a hard cap?

Re: NTL cap limit
 

AFAIK you have 1gb traffic per day - therefore upload and downloads are all in? I've been told that NTL have a top 200 list of people they contact/monitor each month

Re: NTL cap limit
 

A hard cap would stop you transferring anything else on the network

BTW - Welcome to the site...

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Okay so let me get this straight, you means as in transfer files they didnt want you to like P2P programs?

Re: NTL cap limit
 

The guideline affects all downstream traffic - be it normal web browsing, program downloads, or P2P downloads. It does not currently include upstream traffic. The following is from the Acceptable Use Policy, available at http://www.home.ntl.com/page/userpolicy, which says that nobody may use the service in excess of the "Normal use" limit:

This is, though, a guideline only. A "hard cap", on the other hand, would mean that once you reached your limit (1GB/day, 30GB/month, or whatever), your access would be cut off, or you would be charged more. There is no such "hard cap" currently in effect on any ntl residential services.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

At the moment, the 1Gb/day is a guideline - break it 3 times in a fortnight and they MAY be having words, but it seems unlikely unless you are putting an unacceptable strain on the network - that is what people usually mean by the "soft cap".

The NEW tariffs for 2005 - 1, 2 and 3 Megabit, come with 5Gb, 30 Gb and 40Gb monthly caps, and tighter enforcement ("hard cap") is expected - though what form it's likely to take is not yet known.

What was the "lite" tier at 300k, moves to 1Mbit, and since that is a throughput that cost £34.99 not so long ago, at £17.99 it gets a 5Gb cap to make it a "lite" service.

Anyway, uploads, they don't like, there is much less upload capacity than download, and from past reports, uploading more than 300Mb/day is considered unreasonable.

The current services are also 300k down / 64k up (128 up on STB)
750 down / 128 up
1.5Mbit down / 256k up

If you have 512k down/256k up ADSL on a no-cap provider at a decent price, then do not give NTL a second thought.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

This is going to be a bit of a problem. P2P is really taking off, and has many legitimate uses that NTL is going to be hurting.

For example, next year the BBC will begin distributing programs via P2P. If you can only upload a fraction of what you download per day, due to capping, all NTL users will be forced to leech. Ditto with BitTorrent.

The whole point of broadband is not just to make web pages load faster - it's about media. Video and audio. Web TV and web radio. Now reasonable speeds are finally comming to the UK, and NTL are trying to retard it.

A friend of mine in Japan gets 100Mbit fiber to her flat for £23/month, uncapped. Of course, it doesn't operate that fast but she thinks it's quicker than Yahoo's 50Mbit ADSL. Thanks for holding the UK back, NTL.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

if ntl are going to do this, i guarantee they will leave a very important feature out. usage tracking. if u cant see how much bandwidth youve already used in the month, how r u going to know how much to dload? if someone could see that they only have, say, 50mb left to use in 10 days, then they would dload less pics, videos etc and keep it basic, so they can still send email on the last day of the month!

just something to keep in mind, ntl ppl...

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Oh good, another cap thread.......:zzz:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

[rant]

mojo, have you ever considered thinking before posting? Maybe combined with a bit of reading around the subject?

For example, where on earth are NTL supposed to get the money to dig up roads in every major town in Britain to replace the coax cable with fibre? Hell, doing it the first time almost bankrupted them?

Likewise, there's not a lot they can do about the internation cable modem protocol, DOCSIS. The version currently used, (Euro)DOCSIS 1.1, is designed to be very very assymetric. That's why cable connections are very assymmetric. This isn't NTL's fault, it's the people who designed the protocol in the first place. There is an upgraded version, DOCSIS 2.0, with much better upstream capabilities, but the server equipment isn't readily available for it yet. But guess what: the modems NTL are giving out now can be flashed to DOCSIS 2.0 when the time comes.

(By the way, if we're going for useless examples, I have several friends living in UK who can plug their home computers straight into a 100Mbps internet connection -- and pay less than £100 a year for the privalege. Also, I notice you don't mention the many cable ISPs in the states where configurations like 8 meg down/128k up are not uncommon -- for exactly the same reasons as above.)

So you tell me, now that I've saved you the trouble of actually going out and learning for yourself: given the limits of the technology available to them at the present time, how should NTL proceed?

[/rant]

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Neil

:D Send up the flags

I agree with you :LOL:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

What planet are you on.

Are you saying that NTL are holding back the UK on there own. I think you should wake up and smell the coffee.

NTL are not the only ISP that are about to introduce caps. And they will not be the first to have metered broadband.

Is it Cable or Adsl that has increased speed this year and will be doing it again next year

If you are going to brand a company at least do it with a bit of knowledge first.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Really? 1 x 64QAM DOCSIS downstream, data bearing capacity just below 27Mbps and 6 3.2MHz QPSK upstreams, data bearing capacity 6 x 4Mbps. Not massively asymettrical main issue there is usage patterns.

If cable network were good enough :LOL: the downstream capacity could be increased over 33% and the upstream capacity 100%.

DOCSIS 2 compatible equipment is readily available from a number of vendors at this time.

Who are these mythical ISPs? The best ISP for download I can see is Optimum Online whose upload is a mere 1Mbit to a 10Mbit download. Other North American examples are Cogeco with their DOCSIS 1.1 based 10Mbit/1Mbit premium package and 5.5Mbit/640kbit STANDARD package, Rogers and Shaw (using the mythical DOCSIS 2) also nowhere near as asymettrical as UK cable offering nearly 1Mbit uploads on 5Mbit services, Accessonline offer 9Mbit/1Mbit, etc, etc. Some US ISPs that are similar are Comcast who used to offer 3Mbit down 256k up but have uplifted to 3Mbit/384kbit, Roadrunner's 3Mbit/384kbit and 6Mbit/512kbit are in the ballpark as well.

Struggling to find that 8Mbit/128k up which is 'not uncommon' though sir.

As far as what ntl can do, well more proactive rather than reactive action would be nice, pushing the envelope would be great rather than sitting back and counting the pennies, however these things don't make money and regardless of the above ntl are there to make money and don't have quite the same attitude as Telewest towards innovation. I hope that the two of them benefit from each other when they merge and the combine company takes the leading edge - speed is the one thing that cable can make DSL bleed on.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Have you? I'll ignore the factual errors for now, since Ignition has kindly done the job of pointed them out for me.

You clearly didn't understand the thrust of my post, so I'll spell it out for you. The UK has very slow broadband compared to other similar countries. Part of the problem is BT not offering anything faster than 1MB in most areas. The other part is that cable companies, NTL included, are not pushing forward as much as they could.

I suppose it's hard to blame them in a way, since there is so little competition, but by introducing a cap (don't forget, they were the first broadband ISP to formally have a cap) they started a dangerious precident. It's often a problem with UK companies in general - they try and save money by having a sub-standard product and then wonder why things just get worse.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

How's this possible plz? I wont mind abit of hassle for 100mb and for such a cheap price
:D

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Factual Error

Incorrect.

BT were the first in the UK, and the wording for NTL's 'soft guideline' currently in use and the nearest thing we NTL ers have to a CAP (at this moment in time) was lifted verbatim from the BT website.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I find it difficult to understand why Telewest can have a 4mb (upgrades completed early) UNCAPPED, yet ntl can't even have 3mb uncapped. Is the ntl infrastructure really just that bad compared to Telewest?
Does Telewest have the same problems with emails, news servers and complete loss of service as ntl do?

Also, would be interesting if any Telewest customers could let us know what the 4mb service is like, are you experiencing all the slowdowns that people claim would happen on an uncapped service? Are people suffering on the same UBR's, due to overuse?

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Increasing speeds and staying with an uncapped service may only be problematic if users significantly alter the usage of their connection. One result that may be experienced is that users may not always get the maximum speed that their connection is rated at, but that is the result of contention which comes more into play the nearer the speed is to the overall capacity . What is better though, a 3Mb connection that at times only runs at 2 Mb or a 1.5 Mb connection?

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Well, Tokyo is quite densely populated, so in some areas the telcos have laid in fibre optic cable to each block. Of course, you will probably never download at 100Mbit, that's just the theoretical maximum of the line.

If you live close to an exchange, you can get 50Mbit ADSL. More common is 12Mbit. This was in April though, when I was over there. Just about every street in Akihabara had a stall selling fast broadband. Loads of competition and low prices.

My suggestion to NTL would be this. Offer unlimited bandwidth overnight, when most people are in bed. That way, people won't have problems surfing during the day and at night people can download freely. Or, do like Bulldog do and have 1MBit during the day and 3MBit off-peak.

In the end, I don't think capping will help NTL out that much. Unlike an ADSL ISP, when someone leaves NTL they don't just loose £25/month, they loose out on TV and phone subscriptions as well. Sky has better but slightly more expensive TV, BT is about the same for phone lines and so really the only advantage NTL has is bandwidth.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

To be honest, i'm very happy with the 1.5mb connection, but my point is, i bet that when ntl go capped (hard cap) and release the 3mb service etc, the same problems that have always existed, will STILL exist, the cap in my opinion is just an excuse to cover up the fact that they can't handle what they have, due to mis-management, low funding in area's that need it, and not actually caring about the customer (as proven by their choice to do some (for now) of their tech support in India!

A lot of the people i know on ntl are thinking of moving to ADSL, most don't even know much about caps, they're just fed up with all the other problems on the ntl networks.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Getting back to the original point of all this, you said that your I.S.P has told you that you can not get 1MB??

I think you may be suprised if you go back and ask them about it. I was told that I could not get 1MB on my phoneline but now I can.

If you head over to adslguide you will alos find that BT has been forced to let other companies use it's phonelines which will boost ADSL hugely in the coming year.

Within just a few weeks of other companies useing BT's lines there is a company out there offering an 8MB line for a mere £39.99 with a 4GB pre DAY cap on it...

This is also only the start as they plan to spread this to other parts of the country and Bulldog who are curently offering a 6MB are going to follow them.

You can bet your ass that many other I.S.P's will follow there lead. When this happens NTL may well find themselves in a spot of bother as people move for these services offering vastly faster connections and a much higher cap.

My advice to you would be to maybe wait a while to see what developes in the new year.

I am currently on the 1.5MB with NTL and will stay with them when they go to 3MB but as soon as they start to enforce a cap on me I will move onto another I.S.P that can offer me what I want. In my mind I would much rather have a 1MB or 2MB and download as much as I want than a 3MB with a low cap on it. :p:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Both, although I can't wait for Bulldog to start 8mbit here in Leicester! :erm: Don't think Ntl will before 2006!

Thats news to me as a long time 'dog customer :rolleyes: :erm:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Earwig that's tripe, other companies have been using BT's lines 'unbundled' for years, the UKOnline deal is from Easynet who had unbundled BT's exchanges for years before they began to offer residential services under the UKOnline name over their unbundled network.

The change in 1Mbit availability you are alluding to probably came from BT's relaxing of the limits done a few months ago.

Last I checked Bulldog currently max at 4Mbit 'Bulldog 4' apart from business deals, although I can't see any mention of >4Mbit for businesses at the moment either... http://www.bulldogbroadband.com/residential/ http://www.bulldogbroadband.com/business/

Looks like when Cable and Wireless spread the love outside of London that 8Mbit will have to be awaited for a bit longer dellwear, at the moment BD have taken a step back in speeds, they used to offer 6Mbit but looks as though they don't anymore.

Of course the other minor detail is that you have to be VERY close to your exchange to receive the full 8Mbit service, I can receive it (if my exchange were ever unbundled) and I'm less than 800m (cable distance) away.

Bulldog's capping took a different approach though, they just let their network overload to hell so that 20:1 business line users such as myself ended up with ISDN speeds.

Bulldog haven't done any Primetime services for a number of months now - they did however do this for 1 and 2Mbit Datastream users previously, there was a 'Primetime' service which was 512k during 'peak' times, 8am-6pm Mon-Fri, and either 1Mbit or 2Mbit outside of those times, and the Alltime service which was 1 or 2Mbit all the time.

Anyway a tad off topic here, apologies but rebutting.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

4Mbit download and 512k upload for 52 + vat - where do i sign up?? Lol pity that only is the case if you happen to be in a major town that is wired for Bulldog otherwise you can only choose max 2mbit / 256, god dang.

What is the max Length of a CAT 5 cable by the way? Ignition - why not wire yourself stright in to the exchange :) Might involve some digging of roads but im sure people wont mind...

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I was just going by the news that is posted on ADSLguide which comes direct from the BBC news. From what I read then it has only just been allowed to happen on a large scale and at VASTLY lower prices to those unbundling them. Maybe due to the extortionate prices they were charging prevented it from happening before?? The articles can be found here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4100589.stm

And here... http://www.vnunet.com/news/1160168

Maybe I have read them and misunderstood them??

Anyways I do not claim to be right and you know far more about this than I may ever do, but if this is true then surely NTL must worry about it?? Surely they have to change their future plans or be left behind??


Still off topic.........Sorry ! ! :mad:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Is ok, but UKOnline are using exchanges that were unbundled by Easynet to supply business customers already, not for residential customers.

I imagine NTL won't worry too much unless this starts to impact on the bottom line, this being the main concern for the company.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Look at M&S to little to late.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

LOL, whats next? Capping us on how much TV we are allowed to watch in a day?

I download about 10 gigs a day, and this will go upto 20 gigs when my connection is doubled, i have never had a letter or email...

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Just a reminded though it's been done to death, when you order the upgrade you are agreeing to a transfer limit of 40GB a month. This isn't a guideline it's a fixed transfer allowance.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Just two little questions.
1.How do AOL customers come out of this the ones on the network are they capped.

2.What happens with the new NTL ADSL service are they capped.

As both are advertised as un capped

Re: NTL cap limit
 

AOL are affected no more than Wanadoo, etc, are affected by BTBroadband capping customers. Have to remind you that the relationship with AOL is the same as the relationship between Pipex, PlusNet etc to BT Wholesale. I'm pretty sure AOL pay their way.

The ntl ADSL service is not described as uncapped: https://secure.ntlfreedom.com/broadband_512k.aspx see key features bottom right and the panel on the left. Pretty clear I hope!

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I hope i am not on the same UBR as you :mad:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I am just curious how ukonline can offer 500gig a month 8mbit for £3 a month more then what ntl charge for 3mbit 40 gig a month, telewest offer unmetered on the same type of network as ntl and we don't see their users complaining of poor performance, this in my opinion throws the argument uncapped=poor performance out of the window.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

From what I can see there will always be an uncapped service available....

I have just found out that I may be able to get a 2MB connection on ADSL now and can get many uncapped services using it.
I will however stay with NTL and go to 3MB but as soon as they start asking about my download habits I will move on.

The way I see it is yes I download alot but with a faster connection you can download that amount at twice the speed so you would saturate the network/ubr or whatever for half the amount of time.......
I suppose the problem comes when you can download at twice the speed so you download twice as much, Hehehe.... ;)

But I think I would rather have a slower speed and no cap than a faster speed which I cannot use to it's full potential.
Instead of doing a 3MB capped, why not a 2MB uncapped or 2.5?? Or why not pay another £5P/m to get uncapped etc.....? Just adding this option would cater for a whole load more people!!!

Do not forget Telewest have a much smaller area than NTL though and so will find it easier to offer an uncapped service.

I just wonder what will happen when the 2 companies become 1?? Will NTL follow Telewest or vice versa?? Or will they stay as they are with differing services dependant on area but operate under the same name??


EDIT: The offer for ukonline is also capped at 4GB per day which is 112GB P/m and not 500GB. :) Would be nice if it was though eh?? :angel:

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Well i live in Warrington, so you might be out of luck, me and my mates download a hell of alot of stuff, and we all live close to each other.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Will have to check the ubr stats then wont I :D ;)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Nope it's 500GB/month, was briefly 4GB/day then was increased to current level - see http://www.ukonline.co.uk for more information.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

OMG!!!!

That is 80GB more than I currently have...Hehehe.

When I first saw it at 4GB I thought it was generous but 500GB?? Mmmm Hope I can get something like that soon in my area.....Please ignition...tell me I will?? ;)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

coming to my area in may :D , until that time ntl are on probation for me if I am satisfied I will stay where I am otherwise will goto ukonline.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I know a dial-up ISP that doesn't mind if you download up to 500 Gb a day, just shout if you want to know more. Think about it! ;)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Having got Cable and adsl in my house, i'm sticking with ntl until they tell me that one month i had too much.
I dont want to have to waste time monitoring my lads, or myself for that fact. Means the rest of the package going to, but then why should i be loyal to someone who is looking over my shoulder 24\7.
Must admit 8 meg adsl sounds tempting, but lets give ntl the benefit of the doubt until all this is definite.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

8 Mb ADSL does sound tempting as does uncapped broadband but think about it. You are only able to get 8Mb if you live close to the exchange and it is only up to 8Mb, not a guaranteed 8Mb. If all the heavy users move from capped services to uncapped fast services then the chances are that you may get far less than the expected speed and maybe little more than dial-up speed. If you read through these forums and others you will notice that if customers are not getting full speed all the time then they say there is a problem. Cheap broadband, being a contended service, relies on customer usage not being heavy 24/7 usage and sooner rather than later some ISPs will suffer the consequences of attracting all those heavy users.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

just a reminder - no-one knows yet!, It does not say anywhere what will happen if you go over your monthly allowance depending on service your subscribed too when it comes into effect - just as with current 1gig a day guidelines contracts, so at present i would say its a guideline.

the moment they cap and its enfoced strictly i'll be off to AOL uncapped using the NTL service and going sky , this is what bugs me about NTL suggested capping their own users but allowing other services that use the NTL inferstructure unlimited use - bit of a kick in the teeth for loyal NTL users like me who have been with them since day1. I never signed for unlimted all those years ago, so don't intend to abide by new rules just to suit them

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I don't know why you are reminding us that no one knows yet when obviously people at NTL probably do know, including Ignition. The cap is not just a guideline but we have not yet been told what will happen if we exceed the cap. Time will tell.

Well if you are satisfied with AOL 512 kbps then move to them. NTL do not dictate what conditions AOL put on their customers AFAIK just as BT don't dictate to theirs. As for not abiding by the rules, you must suffer the consequences if you don't. All things change with time and rules are put there to protect the majority.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Best not go with BT Broadband if you want a change then, BT capping their own users while allowing other ISPs that use their infrastructure to supply unlimited packages, disgraceful! Of course if AOL are paying for said unlimited usage the issue is.... what? Slight difference between a probably multi million pound deal and 2 users both paying £38 a month, one using 30GB a month another 400. Equating userbase differences with wholesale differences doesn't work for me, sorry.

Well if you never signed for unlimited then what's the issue? Sadly as has been pointed out to death you are supplied a service with an Acceptable Use Policy which is subject to change, you agree that this is the case. You agreed to abide by rules as they change (with the caveat that you may cancel if you don't like them).

Like most other things in life you pay your money for the product that best suits, and if you don't like what you have you generally change your choice of product, you can't expect the product to change to accomodate your needs, though this isn't unknown it's a rarity.

To avoid this becoming a drony same old cap thread I'm not in ntl retentions or customer service, and bluntly, succinctly if you have a problem with the service with those restrictions you should go somewhere else that suits your usage pattern and pocket. I'm sure that you'll have no trouble finding someone who'll match the service speed ntl are offering for that price (unless you don't live in one of the major metropolitan areas blessed with LLU DSL and are within 3.5 or so KM worth of cable of exchange).

Re: NTL cap limit
 

My apoligies it appears that the advert has changed to include a limit on NTL ADSL .

Re: NTL cap limit
 

i wonder what would happen is NTL blocked access to all the P2P, warez and newsgroup offering copyrighted material if anyone would be able to go over the cap then

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Not surprised you didn't notice it that link doesn't work for me.

Also that site says my phone number isn't a valid BT number, but I'm sure it is :erm:

Edit- Found one that does work, interesting:

https://secure.ntlfreedom.com/htmlfiles/5gb.htm

Not cheap either £29.99 for 512k, I pay that for 2Mbit :erm:

Edit, Edit - I like their badly scanned in table from some computer mag!

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I would much rather have an uncapped 1Mbps service than a low-capped 2Mbps one. Unfortunately, I don't think NTL are going to be as sensible as you suggest - for example, when the new packages appear, I'd happily pay £35 or even £40 per month for 2Mbps down and 1Mbps up uncapped. I really think that all this is going to do is lose NTL customers - I know that when I move out in about 18 months' time I'll most certainly not be getting capped NTL if I can at all help it.

Talking to guys in the US who pay £30/month for uncapped 4Mbps/1Mbps lines just makes me sick. Hopefully UKOnline will start advertising more - if people started hearing of 8Mbps broadband with 500GB transfer surely NTL would be forced to jump to 10Mbps in order to compete ;)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Ntl won't be doing an upload anything like 1Mbit, I don't think they can.

UKonlines upload isn't half that, although it certanly is a better deal than NTL can put together, there's a list of their LLU exchanges here.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Find me an ISP in the US with uncapped 4/1 please?

Looking through the only ISP I can see in the US offering 1Mbps upload full stop is Optimum Online, and uploading too much results in a rather rapidly applied upload cap to 256kbit.

Congrats to Tom for completely missing the point though, the whole point of capping these services is to keep the prices decent, an extra £5 or £10 a month will not justify the expense to an ISP of an uncapped 2Mbps download, and certainly not a 1Mbps upload.

I really think that all this will do is trim off a section of high use users, and it will attract a far higher number of users who use closer to the UK average, which at the moment is 6GB a month....

ntl could certainly do a 1Mbps upload, the only real issue is that the same people demanding it are usually those who don't want to pay for it.

DUMeter report of what I've been doing on my completely uncapped 2Mbit service, including a fair bit of newsgroup usage (I have a paid for usenet service and search engine, I'm obviously just not greedy enough and don't download enough pointless crap that I don't actually want).

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I thought there was an issue with providing higher upload speeds compared with the current ones.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Yes, it's expensive to do and 99.99% of customers won't be interested in paying for it.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Great news! UK Online Broadband 8000 is available in your area.
You can receive the service and should be able to achieve up to 8Mb download speeds.

Even as was suggested if everyone bails and joins UK online, even if the service is degraded by 50% to 4meg due to overloading, surely for £39 pm that has to be a good deal??
I would sooner go another few years with ntl, but they are pushing people into a corner.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

http://forum.newzbin.com/viewtopic.php?t=3898

I hope everyone feels very inadequate now ;)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Just out of interest ignition, which I.S.P are you with??

Is there a specific reason you are not with NTL like a better deal with ADSL or perhaps you like the "Uncapped" you have at the moment?

If NTL or should I say "When" NTL impose the caps sometime this year I may well move to ADSL as I can now get a 2MB on my line instead of the previous 512k and I just wondered what you thought to your service........

Re: NTL cap limit
 

I feel inadequate in that the highest service I can see on that companies information is 10Mbit downstream and 8Mbit upstream. The fastest ISP in Sweden is Bredbandsbolaget http://www.bredbandsbolaget.se who offer a 100Mbit symettrical service, capped at 180GB/month if I remember right. Though Sweden is a bad comparison as Government money assisted, BBB are using Government paid for or subsidised fibre.

Earwig, there's no cable where I live, that's why I'm not with ntl, if there were I would be, and infact I've been trying to get the cable network extended VERY slightly so that I can get the service.

I'm with Hi-Velocity at the moment. http://www.hi-velocity.it I helped them out a while back and know the bosses personally.

Off-topic EDIT: Interesting how no-one is commenting on BT Wholesale's 2Mbit/256k absolute limit on services, and how slow that is compared to UKOnline and Bulldog LLU. I could receive 8Mbit on my phoneline if my exchange were LLU'd but it isn't and never will be, so I'm stuck on 2Mbit/256k. In ntl's case it's costs of provisioning upstream that hold the upstreams down, in BT's case it's being @rseholes and nothing to do with cost as the exchange backhaul is symettrical however I don't see anyone mentioning this minor detail when comparing existing services with LLU.

2nd EDIT: Sorry I couldn't give a more controversial reply when asked why I don't have ntl, the implication was in the question that you were looking for an interesting response rather than just 'because I can't' :)

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Yeah, I'm aware that they won't go anywhere near that, but it's nice to dream ;) I can't see it even going above 256Kbps in the near future, which ****es me off rather a lot I have to say.

Alright, keep your hair on! I wasn't voicing any expectation that NTL would offer such a package, I was merely suggesting something that would please a lot of people. Looking back, my price was stupid, say £50/month instead.

I understand that they're trying to keep the prices decent. However, I think they could gain a fair amnount of customers by offering more packages than they already do - a 2Mbps/512Kbps package would attract quite a lot of customers, especially if was capped at something a bit more sensible like 100GB/50GB.

In fact, now I've read through my post again, I don't suppose caps bother me all that much, so long as they're set as sensible levels. Offering 2Mbps download speed while only allowing 30GB of data transfer a month seems like madness to me - that's only just over an hour of maxing out per day. Now, if I'm experimenting with Linux distros and I want to get the full package, I'm looking at four or five discs. That's as much as 3.5GB - more than a tenth of my total monthly allowance. In my opinion, a 50GB cap on the 2Mbps package would be much more sensible, with a 75GB one on 3Mbps. But I know that's not going to happen.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

No worries, just interested in who this 4/1 ISP in the USA is.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

From talking to you (I think) in the past, I got the impression that the only people likely to get 8Mbit from an LLU'd exchange via ADSL were those living almost next door to the exchange, and even then only with good luck...


:D

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Well i'm about 2 miles away from the local exchange, in South Manchester, hardly next door, but probably closer than a lot. ;)

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Well, I may have told a slighty porky, it's in Canada. And, it seems it's 4Mbps/0.8Mbps, which was not what I was led to believe. Anyhow, it's available through Bell for $59.95CAD/month, which is just under £26/month.

Of course, the business packages get stupidly fast for ridiculously low prices. A friend of mine has an $80US/month 10Mbps/2Mbps line.

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@ Ignition.....

I honestly was not looking for a contraversial answer to my question, it was just honest curiosoty on my part........But having said that you kinda got me thinking......


What is your HONEST view on these caps that are to be introduced by NTL on a 3MB line?

Some of the things I would like your opinions on are as follows.....

1. Do you personally think the cap is to low?

2. With the way ADSL seems to be picking up in the last month and hopefully over the coming months (Bearing in mind many are offering "Uncapped" or vastly more usage than 40GB) do you think NTL will lose customers? As with faster speeds people will "find" more things they can do with it.

3. Dependant on your answers to 1+2 what do you feel would be a fair cap?

4. How can Telewest have "faster" download AND upload and STILL be "Uncapped"? Differing technology? Smaller area?

5. With a merger imminent (as in this year maybe) between the two companies, would NTL have to play catch up? I doubt very much that Telewest would drag there customers to a lower standard so would they offer different products north and south but under one name?

6. And lastly.......How much headroom is there in the NTL system for further upgrading?? Is it possible for NTL to keep up with these ADSL services that are coming about right now? Could they offer 8MB Down and 1Mb up on current systems? But then thinking about it by the time they do what will ADSL be offering? I think I read somewhere that 8Mb downstream and 1Mb up is the max for ADSL? I have also read about ADSL2 but cannot remeber much, but needless to say it will raise the bar higher still.

The reason I ask these is that I have been with NTL ever since I got into my PC about 2-3 years ago and have never had a problem to speak of. I would like to think that I never will have and will continue to be a valued customer to them. But like alot of people I want to be able to have the fastest speeds and the biggest download quota.....I just don't want to fall behind the compatition but that is what it seems is happening...............

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Good questions!

Nope, I think that the speed, 3Mbit is too low, but the cap is fine.

No I don't, an ADSL ISP did something similar and quickly became the fastest growing ADSL ISP in the UK. I've little doubt that for the vast majority this will be a favourable deal and will attract many.

40GB is fine for me.

I could spin you a yarn but won't. Due to NDA I'm not at liberty to discuss this.

Sadly I haven't a clue how this would pan out, I'm not remotely qualified to answer this.

The fastest service running over a network similar to ntl's is 10Mbit downstream 1Mbit upstream as operated by Optimum Online in the states and Cogeco in Canada. Higher upload and download speeds are in theory possible. Again I'm not at liberty to discuss anything specific to the ntl network.

The most diplomatic answer I can give is that ntl is a mainstream ISP, and isn't designed to cater to the enthusiast market. I would love to see a 10Mbit/1Mbit service however those who hold the purse strings may disagree until it's absolutely necessary.

Without any illusions of generosity these services are being implemented for the sole purpose of attracting more customers and increasing profitability on the service as a whole, simple as.

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I'm 800 metres from my exchange and have a good quality all underground line :) UKOnline reckon anyone within 2KM 'should' be ok.

BTW Leeds chap ffs don't describe Canadians or Canadian things as being American, Canadians tend to get quite upset at such things :)

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Heh, yes I've experienced that in the past, won't make that mistake again ;) I think I'd be quite upset if someone called me American :P

Unfortunately UKOnline have chosen a frickin' weird set of exchanges to LLU in Leeds, so I don't think I'll be able to ge it at all, never mind at 8Mbps.

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With all this talk of capping it's worth considering a few points.

NTL do not want to lose customers to the opposition so they will offer the highest speeds possible, both upload and download, that the infrastructure can cope with and which doesn't impact on customers performance.

Having said that, NTL would be glad to get rid of some customers and we all know why and what they do.

NTL want to ensure its customers get a good quality of service and will use capping to try to ensure that they do.

NTL infrastructure and development needs money spending on it which means they have to have a pricing structure which ensures this money is forthcoming.

The vast majority of NTL customers will get nowhere near the caps.

Doubling download speeds does not mean that customers must double the volume that they download. As an analagy, buying a new car that has a top speed double that of your current car doesn't mean that you have to travel twice as many miles.

Watching streaming video and listening to streaming audio may eat up bandwidth and make the caps easier to reach so why not try using those alternatives that give better quality and do not use any bandwidth. TV, radio, hifi, cd player, dvd player spring to mind but there are others besides.

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BUT, these customers that NTL dont want, might ditch the phones and TV packages?
Or are they pretty worthless in the great scheme, ie they can afford to lose them?
Thing is as well, word of mouth can be a big influence, most people not on the net ask people in the know who is the "best" isp, and i used to answer ntl. Going to be impossible to say that in a while i fear. :(

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i wonder if there is any way NTL or other ISPs for that matter could offer a sensible monitored CAP.

i.e if you download something from the MS website i.e SP2 then that shouldn't count towards your bandwidth for that period.

The same thing should apply for Linux distributions, AV updates, spyware updates etc.

This is maintenance on the machine that you have to download. if people aer being capped and have to download a 10 MB file from their AV each week how many would still keep doing this which would make virus and spyware worse.

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@Rone & Ianauth
The quote above is a joke based on a "conversation" Ignition and I had about the 8 Meg ADSL service being touted by UKOnline..

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I think there would be privacy issues if NTL did this.

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This could be got round by NTL having a mirror site for such items that is only available to NTL customers. It could be set so that customers could request a particular download which would be sent to their machine during night time hours when it should not affect other customers internet experience. Microsoft would be happy as it reduced the strain on its servers and NTL would keep all this traffic within its own infrastructure.

Whether such a scheme would be workable depends on how NTL measure bandwidth used and if exclusions can be made for certain sites.

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yes that would be a good idea and faster to download from an NTL mirror than MS and Norten, AVG, etc.

The problem with that would be the cost of setting up the mirror and maintaining it with uptodate stuff plus the fact that all the windows OSs are configured to use the automatic updates from MS site..

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Personally, I would be much happier with the idea of a cap, if it was not a hard cut-off. If exceeding the cap meant that you were restricted to 300K for the rest of the month, you could still carry on with "essential" surfing (buying birthday presents, paying bills, webmail, etc).

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but there are so many threads on caps that I don't have time to read them all.

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True, but bearing in mind the problems NTL have with the News servers and email servers, could they be trusted to run a mirroring server?

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Why dont NTL stop being tight arse capitalists, and give their customers what they deserve.

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no and it's probably less work just to make the 'cap' or whatever only be enforced during peak hours. during off peak (perhaps 12am to 8am) users should be allowed unrestricted or less restricted downloading.

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Because that will cost them too much.

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the thing with all these threads about the cap is that it's all well and good us discussing this and suggesting things NTL and do but unless these ideas are actually being sent onto NTL they won't take any notice

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And they can cause arguements. As seen before :rolleyes:

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We all know that some NTL employees actively post on here and these may pass ideas back to the company. NTL will have employees that monitor this and other sites and report back on the feelings of customers and anything of importance that can assist the company in its development. Many a time someone comes up with an idea that is so simple that everyone wonders why it has never come to light before. Such an idea may be posted on here and get picked up by NTL and implemented if it is for the benefit of the company. So post away with any ideas, however wild they may be as one of them could be implemented and help both the company and you yourself. Despite what has been said about NTL and its failings, they honestly want to provide what customers want to buy and give them an above average service level. NTL are not a company that wants to fleece its customers and give them shoddy products and shoddy service. Top executives know that there rewards will be much greater the more its customers are satisfied. Some, as in all companies, may have personal agendas for their own survival and advancement which can result in an adverse affect on customers but hopefully the others will see through them and take whatever action is needed.

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Because they are a business? Wether you agree with it or not, NTL do have a responsibility to pay their debts as well as having shareholders. Obviously they need to balance these up with keeping the customer happy. Also bear in mind that with heavy downloaders they do actually make quite a large loss on the account (so if you are a 1.5 Meg user and download 24/7, you are costing NTL far more than you are paying them).

Edit: Actually, although you are costing NTL more directly, they will pass that charge on to everyone else, so indirectly, you are costing everyone else more.


I know there is no official announcement, but if the rumours on this site are true, then these "caps" are not actually cut off points, but simply the point at which NTL will start charging extra for bandwidth usage. I may get flamed for this, but I think this is fair.

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And how do you know that is not the case. I have not seen anything from NTL on how this is going to be done. Before long with the way threads go someone somewhere will quote you and it will have come from NTL that is what happens with rumors. I don't know how they are going to do this, I have not been told and i have not seen anything released by NTL of how they are going to cap users other that the cap limits. Until i see them release more info i will wait and see. I am sure we will know more when the time comes to implement it. :D

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I thought the best question asked to ignition was why Telewest could offer higher download/upload and have no cap and no reduced performance its a shame he couldn't answer it, I have to assume its company greed. Fact is Telewest have made NTL look like idiots and shown it is quite easily possible to offer more. COX us cable isp has recently upgraded their customs to 4mbit/768kbit free its not announced on their website yet tho. Interesting tho look into these points.

1 - A good ISP actually caring about their users will upgrade them before they announce it or at least very soon after, NTL have gone the other way and announced it and we recieve the upgrades up to half a year or so later.
2 - NTL cant give without taking, the first upgrade seen the top tier have a price increase (some will claim its unrelated) and this upgrade see's a admin charge and a hard cap been added.
3 - We keep hearing again and again from the die hard supporters of a cap that if there is no cap we all suffer from horrible speeds, funny how telewesy have no such issue, pipex have no such issues, plusnet have no such issues, aol has no such issues, nildram has no such issues and they all offer unmetered.
4 - The top tier offers 40 gig a month, following NTL's tradition to shaft the highest paying customer's using the excuse we dont want people to download 24/7, well 24/7 on a 3mbit connection is 900 gig a month, so why not say a 150 gig limit which will do the same and no allow anything near 24/7 but give users a decent limit.
5 - A few people here seem to think price is everything, well it isn't quite a few people here have said they will pay more for a better product so why not offer it.
6 - The big question still unanswered, why cant NTL provide the same quality of service as telewest and yet they have more money to spend. They have a bigger network which is an "advantage" since contention is less visible on bigger pipes.
7 - Why do customers have to frequently goto their local managing director to get a decent resolution to their problems, whats up with customer services attitude lately.
8 - Its 6th january and no news of upgrades starting although I am not going to switch now, when do we expect to see it starting.

Some good questions I think.

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I'm afraid you need to realise that companies are not set up because the owners want to practice socialist idealism, they are set up becausde they want to make a profit.

That's how a free market economy. NTL, BT, Sky, and all other companies are not here to 'give people what they deserve' they are their to make money.

That's the harsh reality of the situation. I can handle the fact that people don't like that, but I won't stand by and allow it to be suggested that somehow ntl are the only ones with this attitude. ALL companies have that attitude. That's how the system works.

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Mark B, then how are other companies making money and offering more then NTL, the question is do they want to make a profit or do they want to make a obscene profit.

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:D i c.

Well i am one of the lucky ones it seems.
Looks like i'm going to have to pick an adsl provider [an 8 meg one if needs be] and just leave the ntl box on the wall, just in case they realise they are going to alienate quite a few people, and might want to lure a few back.
I'm sure Sky wont turn another subscriber away either. ;)
I have a bt and ntl phone, but the ntl phone can go, loyalty needs to work both ways. ;)
This might sound like ner ner ner ner ner, but i havent time to monitor 3 children, and i dont want to ripped off for lots of cash if i go over, or be cut off.

Re: NTL cap limit
 

Some thoughts on "the big question"

Quality of Service is quite different to what speeds are available and whether there is capping or not. NTL may have an higher QOS than Telewest, I don't know and guess that you don't either.

NTL will look at market conditions and infrastructure capabilities when deciding what speeds to offer and at what price. They will take an informed decision on the effects of capping or not capping on their business. They do not compete with Telewest and what Telewest do is less important to their decisions than other factors.

Who knows how much money NTL or Telewest have to spend or what they are actually spending at the moment. The banks and bondholders will have a very big say in that. I think that most broadband users will agree that their service has improved considerably over the pasy year or so and that is due to money being invested in the infrastructure by NTL

Contention on cable is felt most at UBR card level and no matter how big the network is or how fat the pipes are after that. It is what users on a specific UBR card do that affects service most and several 24/7 leechers on the same card can be a big problem. The solution would be to add extra UBRs which are very expensive or to cap the heavy users. Why should an ISP spend thousands of pounds on upgrading just so that a very small minority of customers can continue to download the entire internet 24/7.

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The other way to look at it is NTL is offering the upgrades to all parts of the network that can take broadband. Telewest don't.. Telewest have a smaller network to maintain (therefore lower costs). From what Neil has said in the past, they also have a habit of not upgrading areas that will be too expensive.

Can't disagree there, although AFAIK NTL haven't actually introduced a "hard" cap (I take it you mean that downloads will cut off after that point).

Do you know this? There could be thousands of Telewest users that get crap speeds. Same with all the ADSL providers. It's entirely possible people just don't complain. Remember, before becoming CableForum, this site did not really cater for other broadband users, and a lot probably don't know about it.

When I said 24/7, I did not mean literally 24/7..

An arguement I have used many times with NTL..

NTL are larger, they do have more cash, BUT, they also have larger costs and a larger network. IIRC what Frank said on nthw.com, the bandwidth provided by NTL networks to NTL home is more than adequate for their current and anticipated needs, BUT NTL home have had to spend a lot of money (tens of millions of pounds) upgrading their own hardware to enable the faster speeds. Obviously the Venture Capitalist who provided this money will want it back with Interest.

How do you know the customers frequently need to do this? Are you basing that on what you read on this site? Bear in mind that this site is not necessarily representative of people's experience of NTL (or any company) as a whole. It only has a few thousand users, and a lot of those may have joined specifically to complain about something.

It's only the first week of the year, NTL, like a lot of companies, has probably been running with a skeleton staff over Christmas. A lot of their staff probably only worked a three day week last week, then came back to work on Tuesday. This site was offline from Tuesday evening, and was fairly unreliable last night.

In short, I would be suprised if any company would schedule what is quite a major job for the first week in the year, and even if they did, the users may not have been able to post the fact to this site.

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If your are not switching to the higher speeds then why do you need to know.

Better ask Centrica and British gas then, They might know more :LOL:

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Hmm, me thinks that you and Mark B have shares in NTL.. ;)

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BTW luton ubr,s show some interesting usage ;)

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lol, Luton is in Bedfordshire, i thought my nearest UBR was Hatfield. Anyway, when will the hard caps be imposed? I only have 5 months left at my student residence in Nottingham, so im wondering if it will effect me. You will also be pleased to know that i have ran out of things to download...

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pmsl! :rofl:

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:LOL: what happend to Warrington. Dont tell me you have a personal transporter .:Peaceman:

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Nope... Just being realistic. Where I can see NTL is being bad, I'll say so. If I think they are being fair, I'll say so.

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I got bored of it, internet was too slow, damn leechers.

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LOL