Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

UK Muslims should accept that people of Islamic appearance are more likely to be stopped and searched by police, a Home Office minister has said.

Hazel Blears said innocent Muslims would be targeted because of the search for Islamic extremists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4309961.stm

:rolleyes:

So, under the guise of "preventing terrorism" we now have more justification for institutionalised racism.

Because *some* terrorists are Muslims (or, rather, people of Islamic appearance!!) *all* Muslims must be treated as suspects...!!!

Another great day for liberty and justice in the UK :(

:banghead:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Stop the world, I want to get off (preferably before this thread explodes) :(

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

NOt really all that different from the days of republican terrorism, and everyone with a Northern Irish accent being though of as a potential terrorist.

As thing, different face this time.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

What liberties can you dish out though in these estranged times, library computers hooked up to the net have been practically locked down and virtually un browsable because of hordes of asian terrorist sites with details of bomabmaking and gun purchasing being browsed by apparently asians. Sounds like preparation for war to me on both sides of the fence.

Disapointing and unfortunate but thats the way things are right now, there was a time if you was a skinhead or punk you would be high on the police stop in the street agenda list

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

It is no different to anybody else being more likely to get a tug from the police due to there appearance.

I dont see what the problem is.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Eh? what proof have you go for that?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

She is just stating the bleeding obvious........

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I don't suppose old ladies get stopped much either... I wonder why?

The devil, as always is in the details.

The police can only search people who match descriptions of people who are parties of interest. If one ethinicity commits a disproportionately high amount of crimes in one area, then naturally policing would be focused on that ethniicity.

Are cops supposed to keep a tally? "Well, we have searched 3 black men, 3 arabic men, 3 mediterrean, 1 white man and 2 asian.. we need to search 2 white men and an asian quickly before our shift ends, or we'll be racist..."

Police have to search, who they have to search.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

That's life. If it was rastafarians that flew two jets into the WTC we'd probably be stopping them more often too.

I hate that phrase, it's another phrase that is quoted all too often and all too easy.

It's unlikely that a group of asian teenagers hanging out on street corner will be stopped on anti-terror grounds.

However, 4 asian men acting suspiciously in an airport or near an airport, probably would.

The Islamic Human Rights group shouldn't complain to us about that, they should complain to extremist elements within their communities.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I don't see a problem with it either. I've been stopped in heathrow a few times myself. I was stopped simply because I was getting off flight from Belfast and probably looked a bit of a hood.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

That's a point. All these Islamic groups who say that they deplore extremists, terrorism and violence (some of which are just saying that because they feel they have to, not that they believe it, i'm sure), if they want to stop terrorism, and naturally most terrorists will appear arabic-pakistani, wouldn't they accept that fighting terrorism would mean fighting arabics & pakistanis?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

was all over the news some 6 - 12 months ago, maybe a bit more go look it up

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

hmm... A group of extremist Muslims have threatened us.... so we need to find these people.... let me think.... hmmm..... I know! to avoid offending anyone lets have the police stop all the one legged midgets, that talk with a Spanish accent, and wear big hats - that way we can't be accused of being racist!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yeah but doesn't it really p*** you off that you're instantly under suspicion? I was stopped at Aldergrove on my way to Bristol, pulled aside, had every single case emptied, was physically searched then cross examined for the best part of an hour about why I was going to see friends in England and only just managed to get my flight. I think the solution is pretty clear ... STOP ANNOYING UNSTABLE MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES! ;) (that last bit's a joke before anyone mounts their oversized horse)

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Gee, what a surprise :rolleyes: I take it you would rather be blown up then :erm:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I've never had anything like that, when I've been stopped its been for about 10 minutes where I filled in a form and then the police officer took the form and my passport away and then came back 10 minutes later and sent me on my way. That said on both occasions I wasn't actually staying in England, I was transferring onto an international flight.

I don't know what the success rate of this method is, but if they are successful in catching people using this method then I can live with it.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

everytime I been to and from Israel's Ben Gurion's International airport, I have had my suitcase opened and inspected and this all takes about 45 mins. I am ok with this as it is perfectly normal, also I have been checked before I go into any shopping malls in Israel.

I suggest that the Muslims get on with it and sort themselves out, they aren't doing themselves any favours by letting extremists get away with acts of terrors.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Of course the Government has clearly done its research and seen how successful the SUS laws of the late 70s were when we saw an extraordinarily disproportionate number of black people being stopped and searched. That gave Brixton a lovely warm feeling - well whilst it burned at least.

You cannot stigmatise a majority for the actions of a minority. Besides I thought modern policing was supposed to be intelligence led. Random stop and search of one section of the community doesn't sound very intelligent to me.
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This is not about airport security, this is about being stopped and searched going about your daily life. Totally different issue.

And the Islamic Council of GB and other major islamic bodies are consistent in their condemnation of terrorism. Funny how that fails to grab the headlines though.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Letting them? What do you expect Muslims to do, ring Hisbollah and ask them if they wouldn't mind turning over a new leaf?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The difference between intelligence led only policing and random stop and search
1 permit knowingly as a law enforcement agency crimes to be commited while gathering intelligence.
2 Be seen actively doing something to stop crimes before or as they are commited.

Neither methods are good but a mix of the two is the only way in todays society.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

from the Times: According to those figures, asians should be stopped/searched more otherwise the police will be guilty of discrimination :D

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Assuming there are the same number of white, black and Asian people in the country.

EDIT: Actually I think that's not true. Numeracy not my strong point ;)
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:LOL:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Erm... I thought I said I was stopped and searched before going into shopping malls. To me that was a disruption of my "daily life"??? Don't have any problems with it though.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

In Israel.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

........it would be nice if the muslim community did more to weed out the 'undesirable' elements in their community.
One of my receptionists is muslim and she says that there is still a feeling among muslims here that fellow muslims shouldn't be 'grassed'.....it appears to be a religious thing, you shouldn't betray a brother to the infidels.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Probably much the same as touting on the IRA, if you don't want to end up getting shot in the head, it's best to keep your mouth shut. The British of course never helped themselves with regards to Supergrasses, on occassion when they'd extracted everything of use they had a habit of letting information become publically available which eventually led to the volunteer being murdered. Some people would say that it's killing 2 birds with 1 stone but it certainly didn't encourage more people to come forward, the thought of a couple of day's worth of torture and interrogation followed by a one way trip down a back road was enough to put people off, I imagine the idea of having your head hacked off by some nutcase has the same effect

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I think everyones over reacting here.

Where does she say that. Has anyone taken the time to read what she is quoted on??????

She saysNowhere does she even mention "stop and search" it is the BBC hyping something up and its lazy journalism, making a story out of nothing. She says "counter terrorism powers" which covers a very wide spectrum. Phone taps, surveilance etc

She is saying the threat is from Muslim extremists therefore their resource will be disproportioninately focused on Muslims - as opposed to Roman Catholics

When the threat of terrorism comes from Extremist Muslims its no use putting phone taps on Bhuddists.

No everybody calm down.

Two words "Lip - Service"

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Some might say that the words "intelligence" and "police" don't belong in the same sentence!

Part of the problem here is that AFTER any kind of terrorist act fingers are always pointed and people will harp on about what could have been done to prevent it. Truth is, nobody knows for sure whether any measures would definitely work.

Personally I wouldn't have any objection to being stopped and searched as I have nothing to hide. And if it means a safer world then it's a small price to pay. As for racism, let's not overlook the fact that it's a two-way street. Many people cry "racism" before knowing the facts, just to use the "R" buzz-word. Life is by it's essence racist, in some small measure. Life is also full of civil rights and liberties being infringed. People should just get on with it, until it becomes unbearable.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

This is difficult, I think the minister is being unhelpful. One assumes that terrorists will be clever and merge with the population and try not to be obvious. There is a real threat that someone and others professing islamic beliefs will at some stage succeed in committing a terrorist atrocity here. This is matter for the intelligence services and criminal investigators to deal with.

It is important though that the mainstream of the muslim community be involved in assisting the authorities in apprehending culprits. Therefore some calm and wisdom needs to be employed and the investigating authorities should be allowed to their job without politicians blabbing.


:erm:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Of course, those who claim that this is all an injustice could perhaps tell the Police etc how to spot a terrorist? What exactly does a terrorist look like? And then we must assume that the guilty person would put their hands up and say "Damn, you got me. Yes, I am a terrorist. May I have a prison cell please?". Sadly, the days of "It's a fair cop, guv" are all in the dim and distant past.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

From the same BBC article:

"Statistics showed that of the 17 people found guilty of terrorist acts in the UK since the 11 September attacks, only four of the 12 whose ethnic backgrounds were known were Muslim, he added

Figures published last week showed that people from ethnic minorities were increasingly likely to be targeted by police stop and search tactics.


Figures showed that, for 2003/2004, Asians were 1.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched, compared with 1.7 times more likely in the previous year.

Separate figures on police searches in England and Wales carried out under the Terrorism Act 2000 showed that ethnic minorities were more likely to be targeted.

Muslim groups have repeatedly claimed that their communities are being victimised under terror laws.

In 2003/2004, 12.5% searches under the laws were on Asian people, even though they make up 4.7% of the population.

Last July, the police were accused of Islamophobia by Muslim groups after stop and search figures showed the numbers of Asians targeted had risen by 300% since the introduction of anti-terror laws. "

EDIT: Are those lazy BBC journalists freelancing all over the shop? From a BBC round up of today's papers:

"The Times and Telegraph focus on civil liberties, picking up the words of Home Office Minister Hazel Blears that more Muslims in Britain can expect to be stopped and searched under Britain's anti-terror laws.


The Guardian quotes a representative of the Islamic Human Rights Commission as saying Ms Blears is "demonising and alienating our community".

EDIT: And from The Times:

"Ms Blearsââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s comments appear to conflict with the commitment by the police not to target suspects because of their race, a key recommendation of the 1999 inquiry by Sir William Macpherson into the murder of Stephen Lawrence, a black teenager.

She said yesterday that Britainââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s 1.5 million Muslims should accept as a reality that people of Islamic appearance are more likely to be stopped and searched."

EDIT: Evening Standard:

"Home Office Minister Hazel Blears was at the centre of a race row today after claiming that Muslims in Britain should accept they are more likely than others to be stopped and searched by police.

Giving evidence to Westminster's home affairs committee, she said it was a "reality" that anti-terrorism work would be targeted at people of Islamic appearance.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And of course we must not get confused here. Islam is a religion, not a race. So this cannot be deemed as racial discrimination. If anything, it's religious discrimination. Typical of the instant using and abusing of the "Race" trump card.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Except that racists do use Asian (well a derogatory variation) and Muslim as interchangeable terms. And most Muslims in this country are of Asian descent. Yes it is religious discrimination but it has wider links with race. Whether it's race or religion, it's wrong. And it's an election year.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And intelligent people use the term "Muslim" to describe a follower of Islam. One would hope (possibly in vain) that a Government Minister is an intelligent person!

Andy, you would appear to be as guilty as those that you describe, if you think that all people fall into the category you describe. And therein lies a problem: one cannot address an issue relating to "Muslims" without being ASSUMED to be referring to people of Asian descent.

I lived for many years in an area with a high Asian population, and saw many instances of people using the term "Racism" all too freely. The general reaction to this seemed to be "reverse racism", where the attention was focussed on people who were deemed unable to cry "racism". That in itself appears to be worse discrimination.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yes? So what - we know there are other terrorists out there apart from muslims, we still have the IRA to deal with. Although there is a cease fire IRA persons are still being arrested on terrorist charges, and I'm sure they are closely watched as well.

so not twice as likely, or three times as likely or four times as likely. Last year it was .7more times as likely and has gone up a wopping .2 this year.

Whose to say that there isn't good reason for this figure to be higher?

You have to read the wording it says firstly "under the Terrorism act" and secondly "police searches" - not "stop and searches" This figure obviously covers raids on houses etc where suspected terrorists. It is a fact that if you are looking for a muslim extremist terrorist cell it is likely to be staffed by an ethnic minority, that being muslim extremists.

It's afact you can't get away from

In 2003/2004, 12.5% searches under the laws were on Asian people, even though they make up 4.7% of the population. [/quote] Where in the rule book does it say that the amount searches carried out must be proportional to the population spread?

You've just quoted further up that in the last year it has risen .2 times as likely. Statistics can be thrown at anything. Talking in percentages and times's as likely you can paint any picture you want.

If 5 are stopped one week and 20 the week after - my god that's a 400% rise in week!!!! something must be done!!!

Read it ---- "picking up on the words of" - this is not a quote. She has said one thing and they have interpreted it as this. That does not mean that they are correct

Nope the extremists are doing a fine job of that themselves

Misquoted - Again... Where does she say that Muslims should accept that they are more likely.

The Evening standard is saying that, she isn't

Can you provide the transcript where she says this, all you have given is what the paper says she says - which is not accurate

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Possibly not explained myself very well. Muslim is used as a casual, catch all derogatory term by racists. They know that because of Islamophobia they won't necessarily get picked up on it whereas calling people 'Pakis' (which many, many still do) is more likely to provoke a negative reaction (although its shameful that many don't challenge it). And there is an undeniable link between race and British muslims which is why racists seize upon the current Islamophobic vogue.

Bit off topic but vaguely pertinent. I had a row with a friend the other week. She had complained, quite rightly, to her white daughter's school about racist comments made by a couple of Asian lads (don't know if they were muslim or not). The school has even handedly applied its anti-racism policy and disciplined those children. So far so good.

But when I challenged her on why I had heard the same daughter going on in her front room about how "pakis should go back to where they came from" (mainly Bury as it happens!) and that it was learnt behaviour from her parents, she replied without irony - and this is no word of a lie - "but some of my best friends are Pakis"! Leaving aside this is simply not true, she couldn't see the offence the word 'Paki' could cause. And, of course, it is difficult to complain about racism by people of Asian descent (or whatever) when you are practising it ahgainstr them in daily life. Finally I don't agree with racism from wherever it comes but there can be little doubt that there is more race hate directed towards Asian than there is against whites, even taking into account the disturbing rise in anti-Semitic attacks.
Increasing stop and search powers against people because they look like a muslim is not going to aid race relations and the feeling that I'm sure many muslims feel that they are being discriminated against in so many walks of life. I also don't think it will have any effect on reducing terrorist threat.
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You slated lazy BBC journalists. All the papers seem to have reported the comments in the same way, suggesting they all interpreted them in the same way. Of course they could all be wrong.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yes, because the lazy BBC journo's probably picked it up from the papers lead.

They all interpret the best way to sell a story, and muggins like yourself lap it all up.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

No need to call me muggins :(

So the lazy BBC journalists picked it up from the press journalists from across the political spectrum (though not seen the Mail yet to be fair although sister paper Evening Standard seems to share similar political views) all of whom have misinterpreted her statement. OK, now I understand.
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Isn't 1.9 times more likely, when rounded up, 2 times more likely. As I say I'm not very numerate.

EDIT: And yes, the muggins journos at the Daily Mail read her comments the same way: "Home Office minister Hazel Blears is facing an angry backlash over comments that Muslims should accept they are more likely to be stopped and searched by police. "

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yes, "Pakis" is n an unpleasant term, but I have heard it used my many Asians! And do you think the term "Brits" is derogatory? Or do you think referring to people as "black" is wrong? But what about people being "white"? Whenevr a label is put on a person or group, it is done so to differentiate them; this should not always be classed as discrimination. In this case, the label is "Muslims".

I have friends of many races and religions, and can see that the claimed discrimination against Muslims can be viewed as racism. I prefer to think of it as being a visible (if not always effective) attempt to combat terrorism.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

*Ahem*

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Sorry, I wasn't there. Was this action followed by a large number of individuals walking into police stations and handing themselves in? One guilty plea won't exactly result in an end to terrorism.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I didn't say it would, I was merely pointing out that such a thing can happen.......

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The Police can only search people when they have *reasonable grounds* for suspecting that they will find:-

* stolen goods; or
* an offensive weapon; or
* any article made or adapted for use in certain offences, for example a burglary or theft; or
* an article with a blade or point; or
* items which could damage or destroy property, for example spray paint cans.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nm/ind...#Stopandsearch

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

There are many examples of derogatory terms being re-appropriated by those against whom they are used - that is a big, big difference. No I don't think the terms 'black' or white' are in themselves derogatory. But if you abuse someone by calling them a black/white b*st*rd you (not you I hasten to add) are using someone's ethnicity as an element of that abuse. The racist comment directed at my friend's child was 'f*ck*ng white b*tch" for example - its the inclsion of white that made it racist.

You concede that this is a visible bit not necessarily effective method of combating terrorism so I guess we're not so far apart! :) I think that not only will this measure not be effective buit it will be divisive and, ultimately, could increase sympathy for terrorism among those who are increasingly oppressed.
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Can't see wearing a hijab on that list!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Quite right too! What escapes me is why people here think that the police would want to stop/search anyone if they didn't have a suspicion......why would they want to waste the time :confused:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I get the impression this is being done to appease those that always say afterwards that "the police did nothing to prevent it".

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And if the people who had done it had used the name or alias Pierre, you'd be happy to be considered a suspect and potential terrorist...???

And what is "acting suspiciously"? Or is it sufficient that four men "of Islamic appearance" are near an airport that would be enough for them to be searched?

Presumption of innocence? Oh that's not important...

Sorry, who is this "us" you are talking about?? And what makes "them" separate from "us"? These are very often *UNITED KINGDOM CITIZENS* we are talking about!

They are *US*!!
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Ah, the first Straw Man of the thread...! :rolleyes:

We are talking about a *minority* of Muslims that are a threat, tarring the members of an *entire religion* as potential terrorists based on nothing more than how they look or what clothes they wear is just a *little* excessive.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

A term of endearment I assure you :)

Not misinterpreted, there's no mistake. They have interpreted it for the maximum effect to sell papers or get a good story. No where in any quotes do I see:

1. The have been instructed to stop and search more Asians
2. The asian community will just have to accept it.

For the love of god will you READ what she says:

Would you argue with that????

"Counter terrorism powers", phone tapping, surveilance, house searches - poosibly stop and search but highly bloody unlikely unless by sheer chance they happen to nab Bin Laden as he leaves his local chippy.

Again please argue against this - or should we target Chinatown town in case Al-qaeda are all in fancy dress and using a chinese laundry as a front?
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2 times more likely than what, where, how percentages and "times's as likely" do not tell you anything

They have a paper to sell don't they.

The headline Hazel Bears tells it, the way it is and shes right too. is not as juicy is it??

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Oh look, the second Straw Man.

(I really should have had a sealed envelope with predictions of all these in so I could open it and tick them off as they turned up :rolleyes: )

Firstly can you *prove* that I am *more* at risk of "being blown up" by innocent Muslims being harassed because of the actions of a minority? I doubt it.

Secondly it could be argued that I *am* more at risk *because* of this harassment causing disaffected Muslim youths to be driven towards the extremists "in revenge" for the treatment they are getting.

All behaviour like this does is breed fear, suspicion and hatred and drives a wedge between "them" and "us" instead of bringing us *closer* together so we can fight the terrorist threat from both sides.

The vast majority of Muslims decry and despise the terrorists as much as anyone, but if we then consider *them* to be a threat simply because they share the same religious beliefs (although not necessarily the methods) we risk doing more damage that would outweigh any possible benefit of "safety".
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And *we* aren't doing ourselves any favours by attitudes like this!

Do you *really* think that most Muslims *want* to see these acts of terror committed in the name of their religion? No, of course not.

But when *we* just look at them and say "hmm, Muslim, may be a terrorist" or "they're letting terrorists get away with it", there may be some who would respond "in which case, screw them, let them get blown up. They don't care about us, why should we care about them?"

We should be *helping* them stop terrorists, not alienating them.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And can you tell me how to spot a "terrorist" Muslim amongst "innocent" Muslims? And the same principle could be applied to any group. If you had reason to believe that Spaniards were goint to cause an outrage, you wouldn't just seek out the ones that "look like" they belong to ETA?

And my previous point: I would have no objection to being stopped and searched, as I have nothing to hide.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Hear hear!

Exactly! It doesn't sell newspapers, so why give it prominence.

The fact it gives a totally biased and one-sided picture is a mere detail.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

On Radio London this morning this very topic was being discussed, it was mentioned there that under the new terrorism legislation the police *don`t* need a reason to stop and search if they claim that they are doing it for terrorism prevention reasons, so effectively it is a big catch-all clause.

Not sure how right or wrong that comment is, but the page you linked to does have a 2002 copyright date on it, so it may not be completely up to date.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Don't know if I'd be happy, but what I thought wouldn't matter, I'd either be suspect or I wouldn't.

Possibly, that would be a judgement for the police at the time as to what they thought.

Who said they were guilty, "hello sir, do you mind if I ask you few questions and have alook arounf and inside your vehicle? It'll just take few minutes and then you can be on your way"

Point taken - not a good choice of words.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

We have heard what the govt shouldnt be doing.........So what should the govt be doing about a muslim terrorist threat? :)

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Sorry, how many people with explosive waistcoats have we had in UK shopping malls or on buses or in market places...???
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And some members of the Black community will say the same about their "brothers". And some of the Irish community... and some of the Criminal community...

And whilst we're at it, at school you didn't grass your mates up to teacher either... :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

.....and they should be helping us stop terrorists......but they don't appear to be very enthusiastic about doing so. :(
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ermmmmm........so what? :confused:
The fact remains that a muslim has told me that many other muslims that she knows would be reticent about reporting 'subversive' activity to the authorities.
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But they would look pretty f'kin stupid if the four were terrorists and the police hadn't stopped them because they looked like muslims :D ;)

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

It is not necessary for her to *explicitly* mention it, it is *implicit* in what she says.

Yes, but then, as you go on to say...

You see, it's this word "disproportionately" that gives problems.

If the response was *proportionate* to the threat, I wouldn't necessarily object so greatly, but she's *not* talking about it being "proportionate".

She's talking about treating an entire *religion* as suspects.

It is no use alienating an entire culture and religion when you should be trying to get them *on* your side.

:rofl: Oh, that's *priceless* Pierre!!

You're asking everyone to calm down then you say something grossly offensive and inflammatory to the entire Islamic religion saying that *all* of their condemnations of terrorist are nothing but "lip service" and implying that, secretly they're actually approving of these actions and want them to succeed.

:banghead:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Is everyone playing nicely in here? :)

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

How many do you want? And how many does it take for you to perceive it to be a threat? Answer: None. And none. Wait for it to happen and it's no longer a threat.

What is being proposed are "preventative" measures, not punishments. Punishment comes after the act. I know which I would prefer to happen.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Whoops! There goes another one on the list...

You have the *right* to be *presumed innocent*. That is a most basic and fundamental right of justice in this country, yet you are seemingly content to toss that away without a thought because you think it will make "a safer world".

And once again I quote Ben Franklin: "Those who would give up essential liberties for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security".

If we lose the right to the presumption of innocence we risk extending what is *already* happening in places like Belmarsh Prison and with the government's intended "house arrest" orders with people being locked away without a fair trial, without any *proof* of their guilt and without them being able to even challenge the order!

There are plenty of people in this world who have used such powers. Mugabe, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Ceaucescu, Pinochet...

What a merry band to join...

You miss the point. It is *ALREADY* unbearable. It should *NOT* be this way and just because *you* are sitting there smugly thinking "I'm alright, Jack" does *NOT* make it alright for others who are suffering from these infringements.
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So because we can't *spot* a terrorist, since they're not wearing big signs saying "I'm a terrorist" we should assume that *ANYONE* who looks vaguely Muslim may be a terrorist and thus should be happy to have their basic rights violated...???

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "injustice"... :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I accept the point you are trying to make. But why has every paper got the same interpretation? She either said it, strongly implied it or journos were briefed after the event. THey do not usually achieve a consensus. Journalists can be lemmings but it's not often you find the Mail and The Guardian coming to the same conclusion!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And this is simply a red herring.

Fine, it's not "racism" it's "religionism".

Whatever you want to call it, it's discriminating against *one* particular group, race, religion, whatever and it is unjust.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And I suggest you think of a better way to prevent terrorism. If you want to sit there and wait for an aeroplane to fly into a skyscraper before someone is considered a danger, then more fool you. I think you will find that not everyone who is a Muslim will be persecuted; I think you will find house arrest to be a little harder to apply for and put in place than an ASBO; and I think you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if you believe that "Innocent Till Proven Guilty" is an active concept of English Law.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
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How? If one suspects that Muslims intend to perpetrate a crime in the name of Islam, do you not think it sensible and logical to question Muslims? Or would you rather the police raided the local synagogue?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yes, but are *all* Irish people being considered potential terrorists? Is everyone who talks with an Irish accent being targetted?

It is also glib and unhelpful and pointless in this argument. You cannot base a policy targetted at a majority based on the behaviour of a minority.

It doesn't. It does, however, as I quoted above, say there must be reasonable grounds for suspicion and that's *not* just "looking suspiciously Muslim".

Oh, right, so we should *help* them along by alienating the Islamic community...?!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

"Counter terrorism powers" now that is big area. I suppose the headlines could easily have read.

Home office minister advises asians that they are all going to be locked up without trial

That's a counter terrorism power they have, but she didn't say that or indeed imply that. Nor did she imply that they were going to stop and search everybody either.


Is's disporportionate in so far as if you are an islamic asian then you are more likely to viewed with suspicion in a given circumstance - that is a fact, there's no wrapping it up in sugar.

Words in mouth time, much like what's happened to the minister.

I'm not implying that. However, I do believe that not all those that speak out are genuine.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

What some people in here and the Home Office Minister seem to be arguing is that those who *are* stopped and searched should be *happy* to be so, "just in case", *because* it will "prevent terrorism".

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The response to the "terrorist threat" disproprtionate and besides is likely to increase that threat. Remember the 'First they came for..." quote - this is the same story. ASBOs are, incidentally, another example of this Government abusing the justice system. You do not face a trial to receive an ASBO but can be jailed if you break the terms of it. The Government has totally lost sight of the innocent until proven guilty concept (you've had your sympathy on your speeding ticket (see Road Traffic Act thread); I think this is just a wee bit more serious) which should underpin our justice system and our understanding of what a civilised country is. Even the Tories are now saying this which just goes to show how widespread disquiet is on the increasingly draconian measures they are seeking to employ.

As for other tactics. Very many people are calling for the use of phone tap evidence in trials; the Government is rejecting this (for seemingly spurious 'security' reasons which even the Police don't agree with). Targeted intelligence is likely to yield far more success than indiscrimate hounding of muslims per se.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Everyone in this country IS presumed innocent until proven guity in court. That includes When you are being questioned informally, arrested, charged, bailed, remanded. That includes being questioned on on suspicious

To say that we aren't allowed to question people because they fit the description of a suspect, because it infers guilt before court is wrong.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I don't know if you where ever in Northern Ireland before the cease fire. (no doubt Bifta will concur)

I had friends that lived in Strabane, when we used to go out to Derry or just about anywhere there was a good chance you would be stopped by a mobile patrol, asked questions, possibly searched.

As matter of routine, it wasn't nice but it was fact of life. so in answer to your question yes everyone in N.I. was targeted.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Yes, you use *intelligence* (which could be *supplied* by the innocent members of the Muslim community who may have suspicions of one of their members) to investigate that person.

Of course if you've ******ed off the members of that community by treating them *all* as potential terrorists, some who may have come forward might, instead say "to hell with them".

So, based on this, you would treat *every* Spaniard as a potential threat?

Paging Senator Joseph McCarthy...

And I suggest you do a search in these groups for posts with my name and the words "presumed innocent until proven guilty" included for a multitude of arguments for why this is an extremely short sighted and foolish statement.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Not be happy, just get used to it until the current threat is over.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

What is not denied is that there is a threat from Muslim groups. Real or perceived, it is still a threat. The question is what to do. Be seen to be actively aware and preventative of it, or just wait till it happens and sit around wringing our hands?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The point is, under the arguments being made here you *would* be a suspect for no other reason than your name or how you look!

Now consider you're one of those people. "Hello, sunshine, we think you're a terrorist". "Why?" "Because you look like a Muslim..."

Oh ye gods, you really don't get it, do you?

QUESTION: *WHY* are they having a look inside the vehicle and asking questions?

ANSWER: It's *not* because they thing they're innocent...!! :banghead:

Thank you.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Noone should be happy about it, but people should be reasonable about it. If someone reported a rape by a large man, dark hair, long beard, blue jeans and white t-shirt, and I happened to be walking in the area at the time, not long after, i'd understand why I was questioned. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't bleat that it was against my civil rights, that I was prejudiced, etc.

So if we agree that inside informants (Like Ramrod said) is extremely unlikely, we have to rely on intelligence. Is that the same intelligence you claim is gathered against our civil rights?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Foolish is a tad strong methinks. But it does come across that you are sat somewhere in your ivory tower believing the world is a lovely place full of wonderful people. As for terrorism, it will never happen to you.

Fine, but don't whinge when you are affected by something that COULD have been prevented, but wasn't, all because the civil rights brigade thought the measures were "infringing civil liberties". The world is full of people who harm or wish to harm others, often indiscriminately. They show no compassion, and no respect for anyone's "rights". Fire needs to be fought with fire, and if that inconveniences a minority as opposed to allowing a minority to be killed, it seems a pretty simple choice to me.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Want to back that claim up with any cites or proof?

Or is it just what you've seen reported in the Tabloid Media (those noted bastions of impartial reporting...!) about a minority of Muslims??

And once again the presumption of innocence goes out of the window...

So far all we have is a "group of four men... near an airport". Should *ALL* Muslims near airports be stopped and searched "just in case"...?

Maybe we should stop Muslims living anywhere under the flight paths to Heathrow et al... :rolleyes:
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How many do I want? None.

Do I want to violate the civil rights of an entire religion *just in case* one of them may be planning such an attack? Hell no!

But you seem to think that such an action is justifiable based on nothing more than fear and suspicion.

And we could do more to prevent this from happening by kicking all Muslims out of the country or locking them up "just in case"... :rolleyes:

Ever read 2000AD? Ever heard of Judge Death...?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Police work is not a science. It's hit and miss. There is something in law called the "balance of probability"; there is also "reasonable doubt"; and finally "on suspicion of...". None of these things are definite, a lot of it is to do with judgement.

By the way, what would you think if a spot check caught a terrorist with a bomb? Would you still think his civil rights had been violated, as long as he hadn't detonated it (yet)?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Do you genuinely think its sensible and logical to target all muslims because of the beliefs of a tiny minority? Christian extremists get up to all sorts around the world but I wouldn't advocate indiscriminately targeting Christians in the territories in which they operate (such as the US).

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

It's not because they think they're guilty either.

It's perfectly possible to asked a few routine questions as a matter of security.

I used to go to nightclubs (a few years ago now) and I was searched before I was let in.

Not because they thought I was a drug dealer, or had a weapon. Just a routine security check. Thats all

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

There was a time, not that long ago, where you had to have your bags searched before you went into any shop in Belfast city centre.

And your right the army did put regular checkpoints up where they stopped people at random or people who looked suspicious and questioned them on their movements.

I've been stopped by these a few times its usually of a case of "can I see your license sir", "where are you going to tonight" etc

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

There wasn't much judgement shown in the application of the SUS laws in the 70s. The result. Widespread civil disorder. Nice tactic!

What would you think if a terrorist attack took place because of the ill thought through, indiscrimate and ineffective policing methods used?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

But nobody has said that ALL Muslims will be targetted. It's common sense to increase focus in areas where there is a perceived threat.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I probably only agree with about 20% of what you say on this subject Graham, but I do admire your determination, if nothing else. :tu:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I have already *said*, the better way is to get the Muslim world *on* our side and get them to *help* us instead of treating them *ALL* as potential terrorists!

If you can find anything, anywhere, to imply that I have said this, I hereby invite you to quote it in big letters.

When you can't, please, feel free to apologise for implying that I *would* ever suggest such thing.

If it is not, then it is *because* of people like you who seem to consider that rights are something that can be taken away at a whim whenever it is convenient for the powers that be.

As opposed to the smell of burning liberties...???

Again you completely miss the point. You appear to think that it is ok to question *ALL* Muslims based on the actions of a minority.

That *IS* discriminating against an *entire* group and is short sighted and foolish.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I hate to point this out, but the 70s were about 30 years ago. That's a very tired argument.

And do you really think the latter is likely to happen? Fundamentalist groups cite things like "Capitalist Greed", not "imbalanced police suspicion".

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Oh look, Graham's on his high horse again slinging out the insults to anyone who doesn't agree with him - the second surprise of the day ..... not :rolleyes:

Well surprising as it may be to you, the fact that you post huge posts spouting off with lots of *shouting* does not make your views right and everyone elses wrong. Once again you seem to think that if you force your views on people long enough and loud enough then you win the "debate". Well to answer your neg rep comment, I don't want a reasonable debate (or an unreasonable one) I'm not interested in a debate at all - I agree with the home office, end of story. If you can't deal with that then tough - it's no surprise to me and certainly isn't going to change anything.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Quote:
Wake up and smell the coffee.


As opposed to the smell of burning liberties...???

As opposed to the smell of burning bodies.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

.................and perhaps apply that to what happened in New York, Spain, Bali....... :(

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

[/quote]

That is racist. Or, if you prefer, religionist. Whatever you want to call it, it is *discriminatory* based on nothing more than fear and innuendo and *that* is most definitely an *unacceptable* fact.

But that's *NOT* what you said!

Let me quote exactly what *was* said:

You have dismissed *ALL* of the words of "the Islamic Council of GB and other major Islamic bodies" condemning terrorism as merely "lip service". You didn't even make the *attempt* to suggest that "not all those that speak out are genuine."

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

As I have said twice already......my muslim receptionist told me this.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

If they (for example) decided to stop all white males between the ages of 20 and 40 I'd be mightily cheesed off so I can't see a problem with Muslims being a bit annoyed with it all. Not too long ago when the checkpoints were rife around the borders with the Republic of Ireland, British soldiers would check your number plate, if your car was registered to a residence in a predominantly Catholic area, more often than not it was shutters down on either side and a couple of rifles poking through the driver and passenger side windows, the British track record on presuming innocence leaves a hell of a lot to be desired and I'd certainly not trust the government or security forces to not abuse these new laws for their own ends.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I suggest you ask the opinions of the people currently locked up in Belmarsh and those who would be targetted by the Government's House Arrest policy based on nothing more than the say-so of the Home Secretary. (Although even *he* seems to be backing away from that slightly now because he's realised it's a big mistake).

I agree, but that's not what I said. However when "the description of a suspect" is "looks like a Muslim" you're verging onto very dangerous territory.
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The point is that the "Current threat" is almost *NEVER* over!

There will *always* be some "threat" that those in power will argue will justify keeping these powers on the statute books.

Remember that UK Income Tax was a "temporary" measure introduced to finance the war against Napoleon...!!!
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Ah, now we get the logical fallacy of the False Dilemma. Present two choices and make it appear that they are the *only* choices.

Well, sorry, me283, but as I have already pointed out above, they are *NOT* the only choices.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

That is reality, but she has not issued a directive to stop and search only muslims nor has she said that they should get used to it.

No it's not.

If, for example, an unkept scruffy individual was loitering around the jewellery dept in Harrods he would be viewed with suspicion in that circumstance. If he was under the arches with a can of special brew he wouldn't.

In a given circumstance an asian or islamic looking person may be viewed with suspicion over another individual.

It is not racist

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And neither would I.

But if it was "a white man" would you consider it acceptable (or sensible) to stop *all* white men and question them?

Whoops! Nice try, but, no, actually I *don't* agree with that!

What I do agree, however, is that we are likely to get *less* informants if we treat them *all* as suspects!

I don't know. Which intelligence are you talking about?
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If it comes across as that, I suggest you re-read my posts and try to comprehend what I'm actually talking about.

I do not deny the reality of terrorism, nor that there are people who will commit such acts.

However neither will I accept that the *ONLY* way to deal with it is to throw away the precious rights we have fought so hard for in the past because that will give a *VICTORY* to the terrorists as we dance to their tune!

Do you *really* think I am so shallow or self-centred that I would change my tune completely just because something affects *me* and not someone else?

But neither am I so naiive as to think that rights are merely conveniences, not necessities to a civilised and democratic society.

[qutoe]The world is full of people who harm or wish to harm others, often indiscriminately. They show no compassion, and no respect for anyone's "rights".[/quote]

So to *defeat* them, we must *become* them by using *their* methods :rolleyes: That is *NOT* the sort of society I want to live in!!

Fighting fire with fire leaves nothing but ashes - Gandhi.

And it's all very well to talk about "inconveniencing a minority" when *YOU* are not *part* of that minority...
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The problem is, you are asking the wrong question here.

What you should be asking is "how many people's rights do you think it is acceptable to violate in the *hope* of catching one bomber?"
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No, it's because they look like MUSLIMS!!!

True, but that is the wrong point.

The search was a condition of your entry to that establishment. If you objected to the search, you could choose not to go in there.

If you object to the Police searching you because you look like you follow a particular religion, they arrest you.
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Fine, if you think I'm wrong *please* counter my arguments, but simply making ad hominem attacks doesn't help the debate.

Except that, as I note...

If you don't want a debate, don't complain about those who do.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

True, but there is no getting away from the fact that it is muslim extremists that are the perceived threat.

If was hare Krishnas then if you had a bald head, orange robes and little symbols on your fingers then you may be viewed with suspicion in a given circumstance.

And I have to stress "given circumstance" if you are a muslim or asian out doing your shopping on the high street you will not be unneccessariliy harassed.

but if you were to go into a chemical wholesalers and ask for 300ltrs of a volatile compound then that might get someones attention.

I take your point, but I refer you back to my posts on Northern Ireland for a better analogy

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Sorry, were we talking about Belsen...???
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Now ask yourself this:

*WOULD* the methods being proposed have *STOPPED* New York, Spain, Bali et al...?
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Fine, one piece of anecdotal evidence, but not exactly substantive proof.

Now try asking her what she would do if she knew someone who was going to commit a terrorist act.

Would she keep quiet or do something about it?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

You just answered your own point there. And people are held "under suspicion", and that is clearly made to them. Held "under suspicion" has long, long been the accepted way here, long before Blunkett came along.

Come on, be sensible. You know that isn't true.

But you said (and I was going by...)

Sounds to me you was re-affirming what Ramrod had already said?

Last time we debated it, all intelligence. If you remove informants from the intelligence category, that only leaves intelligence that was found whilst right to privacy was not observed.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Damn right! Which is *WHY* it is necessary for us to make a stink about laws like these and ID Cards *BEFORE* they can be abused!
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It doesn't matter *WHAT* you call it, it is *STILL* discriminatory and unacceptable and that is the important point.
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Yes, but there is *also* no getting away from the fact that it is *discriminatory* to treat *all* Muslims as suspects based on the actions of a *minority*!

And I refer you to Bifta's responsel

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The report states " Hazel Blears said innocent Muslims would be targeted because of the search for Islamic extremists." If that it is accurate (don't want that debate going again!) then its as good as all muslims because they make no distinction between innocence and guilt in exercising powers. As I've already said God help us if its left to Police judgement because that's precisely what caused the 1981 riots. It's policing by caricature and its a nonsense. And most importantly, it won't work

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Funny you should mention Belsen......people tried to appease the Nazis at first.....look where that got us
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Who knows.....worth a try don't you think?
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She is a muslim and as such probably knows what she is talking about re muslim attitudes in the UK

Whats that got to do with it? Perhaps we should ask her elders in her mosque.....