NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Can any one offer any advice?

I signed up to NTL broadband in October 2004 it appears for a term of 12 months (although I cannot find the original terms & conditions), and am currently in rented accommodation. The house I am in, recently was sold and I am having to leave. As I have no real place to go here I have decided to go and live with my friend outside of the UK for a year. I would want to continue broadband when I return but NTL have said I must pay the remainder of the contract ie up to Ocotber 2005.

However, I am sure it said somewhere if you are moving to an area not covered by NTL then the contract can be renegotiated. If not I am liable to pay for a service which I will not be receiving and may be paying for someone else to use internet for free.

I have spoken to NTL and found them to either be disinterested or very rude and unhelpful. Do I have any rights in this case or am I stuck with this bill? Obviously this was not forseen when I took the contract out and I have always had good service from NTL but now I am not so sure.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

i assume u are moving to an non cabled area then?

this post might be of some interest to you someone having the same problems...

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=19459

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Hmm so it seems NTL changed their rules recently.


Oh well guess I shall have to finish paying this contract and then cancel with them for good. Thing is as I will have no billing address - where would they send the monthly bills and would I be paying for someone else who may move into the house if they plugged in their modem?

If not then where exactly is the service I am paying for going?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

If you signed a NTL contract then you have to abide by the terms of that contract. You probably had free installation of your services and NTL or the company they bought out had to spend a fortune cabling your area and providing all the infrastructure. NTL are not a charity and need to recoup costs already incurred and have every right to insist on you paying the full cost of your services for the remainder of the contract period. What NTL have done for customers moving out of area in the past was a concession by them and they are quite free to stop doing this.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Mind you after reading that post it says the service is continued even if you are moving to a non NTL area with the other product they reccommend. If I am moving abroad what happens then? Is this still liable?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Im sorry but I don't agree with that. It is the persons fault the area is not covered by NTL. I could move less just over a mile up the road from here and not be able to get NTL cable. Is it my fault they never cabled the road?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

As another point in question, I previously had a seaprate broadband account with NTL which I had to pay for installation at the same address. I had this for a period of over 12 months but wanted to freeze it as I had work abroad. NTL would not freeze it for the period I was away and I cancelled it no problem. When I arrived back I resigned with NTL (same address) and this time did get free installation - however, due to circumstances beyone my control I can no longer receive this service due to sale of the house and my moving outside of the country.


What would be the best plan in my case would be either if I could pay a small fine to hold the account or pay for installation when I get my own place sorted.

I presume this is an option NTL does not provide and I suppose I have learned my lesson and that NTL are not the company to meet my current needs. However, again all advice is greatly appreciated as I do not want to be paying for something I am not receiving.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

If you sign a contract for provision of services at a particular address then you are bound by the terms and conditions of that contract, terms that you agreed by signing were acceptable. NTL can continue to provide the services at that address so they should not be penalised by you breaking the contract. It is not their fault that you are moving away.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

But surely if the house is being sold and the tennants being evicted then this puts matters into a different situation? As it happens the new owners could be rennovating the house in which case there would not even be a house for the service to go to! If not I certainly don't want to be paying for someone else to use the service for free.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Errr - isn't the contract to supply services to the *person* named? If that person moves and NTL are unable to supply a service to wherever that person now lives (do they make very-very-very long coax cables? :D ) then why should they continue to pay for a service they, in effect, aren't receiving?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

It still does not alter the facts that NTL contracted to provide a service and you contracted to pay for it. You, unfortunately, are the person breaking the contract and the one that should suffer.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

So I take it there is nothing I can do then? Thing is I have used NTL for the past 4 years in one form or the other and have usually have had no problem with the service.

However, with this situation which is of course not NTLs fault, but I feel lack of customer care due to circumstances beyond customer control has definitely lead me to believe I will not be making use of their services anymore.
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Is it possible to pass my account to somebody else who can take on the remainding service period and will be in the UK? At least that way it can get used and will not be wasted?



It just feels like such a waste of money (£200) to pay for something that isn't going to be used?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

The one thing to remember if cancelling before the end of the contract period is to reduce all services to the minimum before cancelling. What services are you currently taking?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

*Moved to ntl Billing forum *

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I'd just cancel the payments and let them try and find you to bill you :>

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Im currently paying 19.99 (special offer) for the 750k broadband service

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

You could drop this to the 300k service and save £2 per month. Every little helps. :)

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I don't think so! Why fork out £17.99 a month for nothing in return? Can't give in to that.

At this moment in time, this issue is a bit of a grey area. Until you hear about more people facing the same issue, I would just suggest that you write to NTL and give in your 30-days' notice for cancellation on the basis that they cannot supply you with broadband at your new address. It would be a good idea to also enclose a copy of any official document which confirms that you are moving out of your current place.

Do this first, and then over the following 30 days, hopefully you will find a way out. The address i wrote to is:

NTL Customer Relations Team
Hertford House
36 Hertford Street
Coventry
CV1 1LF

I am not entirely sure what they are saying to you over the phone is legal, so in response to your cancellation notice, if they put their words in writing, then you can seek some legal advice from there.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

OK That's great, I shall give that a go ;)

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Is it any wonder ntl are skint?????????????????????????

You signed a 12 month contract. Therefore you should be responsible for the contract for that time. I appreciate that your cannot help the situation yourself, but I would respectfully suggest that you do not sign yourself up to long term contracts on services when you live in rented accomodation, and I would also ask why you think ntl should adjust to the huge loss they willl have incurred just by installing you? Why is the liablity always down to ntl with flaky customers??? :rolleyes:

also, I wouldn't take the earlier advice of cancelling your dd before getting this resolved. You'll adversely affect your credit rating, which will make things more difficult when you do come back to the UK and want other (credit based) services in the future.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

It is perfectly safe to sign up for long term contracts when living in rented accommodation as long as the contract term is shorter than the length of lease left on your property. Contracts are there to protect both sides and you should read all terms and conditions before agreeing to them.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

You can't really argue with that I'm afraid.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

So what happens when somebody moves to a cabled area? Presumably they have to start a new 12 month contract as the old one is with that person specifically at their old address.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Think about it this way... if NTL want to enforce the 12-month contract onto customers moving to non-cabled areas, then they should include a clause on their t&c's about it. They can't just not write anything about it and then keep changing their stories all the time. Personally, I had actually been assured by my salesman that "normal procedure" in such a case would be for NTL to transfer your service to your new address, or if it is in a non-cabled aread, to cancel your contract without penalty.

Best thing to do would be to get NTL to put in writing that they are going to charge you despite not being able to supply you with broadband at your new address. Common sense tells you that they won't be able to argue that anywhere in this world!!!

And as for incurring the cost of installing that tiny length of cable along with a wall-socket as part of the installation, I think from a corporate point of view, this is worth the investment anyway. You buy cable and sockets in bulk for peanuts, and the more places you have cabled up (all the way inside the premises), the more readily available you are making your services. I have worked for a wireless broadband service provider before and can tell you that we invested a lotta $$$ on cabling up new buildings in my city along with wireless equipment and I can tell you that we recovered this investment within no time at all.

If the cost of the cable modem is the worry, then NTL can by all means enforce their terms that the customer has to safely send that back to NTL.

I think that if NTL's main businessmen had their way, then I would have thought that they would have cabled up all houses/buildings in broadband-enabled areas all the way indoors in hope that occupiers would opt for readily-available services rather than having to sign up elsewhere and have more wires running in. After all, NTL's broadband connection (in my opinion) is quite good and is reasonably priced as well. It is just the occassional inconsistency with their policies (and the slow-paced ping-pong on their telephone lines) that are out of order.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

And, following the arguement through to its logical conclusion, even if you could get cable at your new address you'd still be responsible for the remainder of the contract on your old address.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Intalex, you read a contract, you agree its terms, you sign it! THAT is the contract and it includes all the eventualities that you have agreed to. The contract details the conditions on which both parties may cancel it and only those conditions apply. NTL in the past may have allowed customers to leave without penalty if they moved to a non cabled area but they were not obliged to.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

As far as I'm aware, when they transfer the same cable broadband service to your new address, you just have to see through the remaining period of your contract. However, if you transfer to their ADSL service (NTL Freedom), then I've heard rumours that you have to sign up to a new 12-month contract with them.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Therefore the contract is with the person, not the address.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Just to be sure. Does this new rule apply to BB AND Tele/phone, or just to BB (which they can supply outside cabled areas)? I was under the impression from another thread that NTL do allow you to leave without penalty for tele/phone, but not for BB, but I might be wrong.

If they do allow you to leave tele/phone it puts another spin on the argument imo.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

If they were not obliged to, then they shouldn't have used that when selling their product in the first place. I'm not blaming the salesperson here, as he was only telling me what the normal procedure at that time was. The fact that this unwritten rule has canged recently should mean that it should apply to customers who sign up since the change of the rule.

How do NTL propose to build up a good reputation when customers not at fault end up losing money?

Ian, you finally come up with the same argument about following what's in writing rather than what's agreed verbally. What if I told you that I never did sign my contract or send it back to NTL (I have my unsigned contract at home)? Then NTL haven't got aything from me in black and white!!!

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Just for a laugh consider the position if you lived in a rented house and signed a contract for a builder to put a swimming pool in your back garden. Just as the installation is finished you get notice from your landlord that you have to vacate the premises in 28 days. What do you do?

1. Not pay for the swimming pool because you can't use it.

2. Ask the builder to move it to your new address or you won't pay for it.

3. Tell the builder that there is nowhere at your new address for him to move the swimming pool to so you're not paying for something you can't use.

4. Tell the builder he should build a swimming pool at every address so it will be there if anyone wants to use it in future.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

not sure about a standalone phone line. i think if you take up a phone and TV package deal, then you are bound to it for 12 months. call them ask what their salespeople say!

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Which their bailiffs will certainly do, and then add several hundred pounds in charges for doing so.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

(i) Most people nowadays want internet, and usually broadband rather than dial-up (makes the install-anway theory potentially profitable)! In England i doubt anyone wants a swimming pool in their back garden - looking out of my window at this very moment gives me that impression anyway.:)

(ii) A swimming pool is not supposed to be a "transferrable" service/product, but NTL's broadband, to some extent, is. The question is, what happens when it isn't transferrable? Well, when you are investing in anything which is fixed to your rented accomodation, you want to know about the implications when you do move. So what you do is you ask before you agree to buy such a service/product. What you don't expect is for the supplier to change their story because to me, this is like the company breaking a promise seeing that one person made the promise and another is failing to honour it.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Contracts are specific to the person, not the address. If you move and take the services with you, you are still on your old contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

If you have only got a verbal contract then that contract can only be based on the discussions that took place. If NTL sent you a contract and cannot prove that you received it and you didn't sign and return a copy then NTL could be on dodgy ground if it came to court action. They should have a procedure that checks for the return of a signed contract and chase this up if it isn't returned. You have to be careful though that you don't take any action that implies acceptance of a different contract to your verbal one. Such actions could be paying a bill that has reference to terms and conditions applicable to the account which you are paying or clicking an I accept box on your computer that says that you have read the terms and conditions.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

That doesn't matter. BY allowing the installers in, you have consented to the contract, as ntl don't supply services under any other contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well the swimming pool analogy is complete nonsense because ovbiously you've agreed to having the swimming pool built at that address. As someone has stated that if you move house your contract moves with you (if it's an ntl area) then the contract is clearly with the person not the address. If your contract doesn't move with you, and is with both you and the address, then you will be responsible for both your old and new contracts. Can someone who works for ntl confirm which it is?
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Sorry Scrotnig, you replied whilst I was typing!

So therefore it's up to ntl to supply the services at your new address and if they can't they're in breach of contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Interesting, but how am I to know what these t&c's are, and how different they are from my negotiations with the salesperson? After all, the amount going out of my account each month is exactly what the salesperson had said would be the case.
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I didn't sign it because I could never be bothered, not because I didn't accept it. Since there was nothing written in the t&c's about moving houses, I accept my verbal agreement with my salesperson to be the additional "clause" regarding moving houses, not some unwritten rule which can be changed whenever NTL want.

I couldn't agree more. This way, they would get some feedback about their t&c's from people who actually do bother to read them and could amend it to clarify any uncertainties.

I'm not going to use that argument anyway, so it doesn't matter. I'm not just trying to sort my own situation out and bow out, but am trying to make a point altogether about the fact that this change of unwritten rules cannot be implemented on people before they get a chance to see this rule documented somewhere.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I`m not convinced you are correct here. It has already been established that the contract is with a person, *not* the property.

Under English law, a contract requires, for it to be defined as a contract, the receipt of a product or service in exchange for the money paid. If either of those factors are not present then legally it is not classified as a contract.

If the customer is moving out of an NTL area, for the contract to still be a contract then NTL must supply the services in exchange for the money paid. Therefore, all the customer has to do is say that they are willing to continue paying if they can continue to receive the service. If NTL cannot provide the service then the criteria under English law that make a contract a contract are not satisfied and the customer's responsibilities are discharged.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Allowing installation to take place doesn't imply acceptance of any contract other than the one previously agreed which could be verbal or written. If, however, the installer asks you to sign, and you do sign, a quality of installation document that states the installation is for goods and/or services in accordance with the companies standard terms and conditions then you are covered by those T&Cs whether you have read them or not.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

When placing the order the salesman will inform you that you will be bound by ntl's terms and conditions which will be sent to you to sign and return. If you choose not to sign and return them, it doesn't matter, as by letting the installers in, having been informed that this is only done under the published contract, you're deemed to have accepted tham, and you'd have a hell of a job convincing any court that you didn'ty know about the contract when you let the installers in.

That said, it is certainly the case that the salesman will have told you that if you move to a non cabled area you will be released from contract, as this was certainly the company's policy at the time. It's not your fault the policy has changed and, whilst you CAN be held to contract, I would push the issue and ask that you be released as this was your understanding at the time you signed up. You will probably need a manager for this though.
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Whilst sounding plausible, that's not the case here, for the simple reason that the change in ability to provide the service has been brought about by the customer moving house, not by the company's inability to provide the service.

Contracts have to fair to BOTH sides, not just the customer. On your basis a customer could conceivably have grounds to force ntl to lay cable in a non cabled area. Such a contract would be deemed unfair and unenforcable.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Yes ntl would have to either lay cable, or offer an equivalent or better service at the same price. The only way they could enforce the contract is if it explicitally stated that you would be liable for it if you moved to a non-cabled area.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Which under English law would also render the contract null and void.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

The contract is with a named person or persons but is for installation of the services at a specific address and any court would take the view that the contract is tied as much to the address as to the person.

I know that I have argued in another thread about the validity of a verbal contract but that was about a dispute over whether the contract was for a fixed length of time or a minimum ongoing length of time.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

So if that's the case Ian, and the contract is for a specific address, then anyone moving would still be liable for their old contract whether their new house had cable or not. You can't have it both ways.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

If the installation is free then that part isn't technically a contract under UK law as there hasn`t been an exchange.

Further, I disagree that a court would take the view that the contract is tied to a specific address, if only for the fact that NTL continue the same contract at a new property if they can supply the services there. If they cancelled the original contract and started a new one after a property move then they might have an argument, but they do not.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Depending on the wording of your contract you could still be liable for your old contract if you moved to another NTL cabled area and asked for services there. We are talking contracts here and you have to look at each and every term in the contract and not rely on what penalties NTL have chosen not to apply in the past for breach of contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well it's not just could be liable, you will be liable if what you're saying about the contract being tied to a specific address is correct. However, Scrotnig says this isn't the case. Does anyone know for sure?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I like this. It concurs with common sense thinking. If you argue that "the customer is breaking the contract because he is moving", then you are asking to justify the fact that a customer cannot even move houses because he is tied to his broadband connection contract. How on earth do you justify something ridiculous like that???

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

The contract is for provision of services including installation in return for which a consideration is paid. It is a legal document subject to UK law covering the whole of the transaction even though a part of it may be provided free.

NTL or any company can decide not to penalise a customer for breach of contract if they so wish.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

:clap: :clap: No-one's worthy!!! :D:D:D

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I still entirely disagree, if no consideration has been paid for the installation then it cannot be considered to have been covered under the strict terms of a contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Nobody is saying that the customer is breaking the contract because they are moving. What is being said is that the contract is for 12 months and contains several ways of termination without penalty during that 12 month period. Any termination other than for the stipulated reasons will incur a penalty equal to the payment for the remaining period of the contract. The breach of contract would only occur if the customer refused to pay that penalty. However NTL may decide not to impose that penalty if they so wish. That is why I have suggested that services are reduced to the minimum value possible within the contract so as to reduce the penalty to a minimum. You can ask NTL not to impose the penalty due to your mitigating circumstances which they may or may not do.
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That's complete nonsense and I think you know that. Say for instance that you signed a contract for the supply of a new car and the contract stated that you would get FREE delivery, FREE number plates, FREE road tax, FREE 12 months insurance, FREE 3 year warranty, FREE 3 years servicing, FREE 3 years roadside assistance, etc. What would your reaction be if you take delivery and find that you are billed for the FREE items already supplied and would have to pay for any future repairs, servicing and roadside assistance. Would you consider the company to be in breach of contract?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

The contract is with the person, not the address.

The person agrees to pay for the minimum service for a minimum of 12 months - whether or not within that 12 months they cannot receive the service under circumstances with ntl cannot prevent. Get over it. :rolleyes:

ntl have to recoup the costs of the time and wages for someone to load your order on the system. Someone to book your installation. Someone to go to your house with (the cost of) the materials and hardware required for the service you ask for. The costs are there, and ntl are NOT being unreasonable in asking a customer to be prepared to EVENTUALLY cover the costs of all that, let alone pay for the continuing service. It takes 14 months of revenue from the 'average' customer before ntl break even, let alone make some kind of profit.

And PS, by using and paying for services, you agree to the t&cs - read them sometime.... :dozey: :)

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well, whatever's unwritten will always be considered a goodwill gesture (in the eyes of Customer Services) when it is in the favour of the customer. Oh well, I have to give up arguing about this any more and agree that both parties have equal grounds for this case and it could go either way. I guess you NTL staff should get in touch with your policy-makers and ask them to include a section on "moving houses" in the t&c's.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Technically, there was no contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Get over what? If the contract is with the peron not the address, then they are free to move at any time during the contract. If ntl can no longer supply the services they agreed to in the contract (regardless of circumstances) then they have to supply an equivalent or better service at the same price, or they are in breach of contract. That is the law. It's entirely irrelevant whether ntl have to recoup wages/time/hardware costs or not.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I think that you would find there was. :)

Contracts always have to be between people but they can specify location. If you have NTL services installed you are not allowed to modify or interfere with them. If you move, under your theory, you can take the service with you but under NTLs T&Cs you cannot do the movement of the equipment yourself. Now take you pick, pay the penalty or pay NTL to move the equipment. Anyone here know the cost of laying several miles of fibre and supplying all the other equipment that would be involved? :D :D :D

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Nice to see all the barrack room lawyers out in force again in this thread.

The contracts are 100% watertight. End of story. People seem to think that just because they didn't fully read the contract, this somehow makes it unfair when they get caught out by something they didn't read. It doesn't.

If you sign up to a service for 12 months, you have to pay for the service for 12 months. I can't believe people are somehow suggesting that THEM making a material change to the situation (IE moving) is somehow ntl's fault and they should be released from contract.

If you don't think you're going to be in a property for 12 months, don't agree a 12 month contract.

Try telling Sky you're moving to somewhere they cannot service (yes there ARE such areas) and therefore you want out of the contract.

Once again, people will argue black is white.

As an aside, the poster in this thread should have some redress as he was specifically told that he could cancel if moving to a non-cabled area, but this is still not part of the contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Yes if you sign up for a service for 12 months you have to pay for it, unless the service is no longer being provided. It's not rocket science.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I only asked because I knew that I would be moving in 3-4 months, and was just doing my homework beforehand. But the original poster is being forced out of his place, and so it is not by his own choice. This makes it unfair on the poor chap.

Once again, I repeat, if NTL decided to change the unwritten rule, they should apply it to only those who sign up after the change. I'm not talking on legal terms (because unwritten can mean anything), but rather on the basis of good genuine service! In fact, if the unwritten rule is not in the favour of the customer, then it should be well-documented rather than left unwritten in order to avoid such uncertainties.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

What I find most astonishing is that people have admitted that if you move to a broadband enabled area the remainder of your comes with you, but then claim if you move to a non-broadband enabled area you contract stays where it is. The only way for this to happen is if ntl make a provision in the contract differentiating between where their customers could move. Theyââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢re just trying it on in the manner of many big companies, itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ll only take one person to stand up for them. Sweeping statements like †˜The contract is 100% waterproofââ ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ are unhelpful as well as a little obtuse. Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢m not disputing that the contract is a legally binding document, just that in the said circumstances ntl are in breach of it.



Do people believe this applies to TV and telephone also by the way?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

NTL are quite free to waive any penalty imposed by the contract or vary contract terms to the customers advantage if they so wish. They could stick rigorously to the contract terms if they so wished. Would you want the latter?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Yes, it's unfair, but it's not ntl's fault it's unfair. They are not a charity on call to pick up the pieces of people's lives when they go wrong. Harsh but true.

Totally agree, and in fact I'm not in favour of the change of rules, it was fione as it was. The original poster should push his case with a manager, perhaps writing in would be a good idea.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Try signing up to a 12 month mobile phone contract & then leaving without penalty after 3 or 4 months.

Ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well this is taken from the Orange website:

"4.4 terminating your contract because Orange is no longer able to provide access to the Network
If, for reasons beyond our control, we are no longer able to provide Network Services, we will at our discretion either:
4.4.1 make arrangements for you to be supplied with equivalent Services by another network at no extra cost to you, or
4.4.2 accept written notice from you that you wish to terminate your Contract. In such cases we will refund any pre-paid Charges that have not been used up."

And for "at our descretion" read because we're legally obliged to. I

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Totally agree, although I do believe the original poster when he says he was told he would not be held to contract if he moved to a non-cabled area.

Although ntl are technically within their rights to hold this particular person to contract, in this specific instance I believe they should honour what was said at point of sale. It's not as if it was a salesman telling lies, it was genuinely the 'unwritten rule' at that time.
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That's nothing to do with moving house though. It covers the fact that for whatever technical reason may occur, their service beomes unavailable.

To repeat what I said AGAIN (something I seem to have to do in every thread these days as people don't listen), the ntl contracts are watertight. It is NOT NTL'S PROBLEM if someone moves to a non-cabled area. The customer has agreed a contract for 12 months, and that is all there is to it.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

It could be to do with moving house, for example if you move to an area outside Orange's coverage. I'd have thought that was obvious. There's no mention of technical reasons at all.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I can assure you that if you move house Orange are not obliged to release you from contract just because there's no signal. It covers things like masts having to be removed, or changes in the law, etc.

Besides, the original poster did not sign an Orange contract. There's no sense in arguing that one company's contract is unfair simply because another unrelated company has a different one.
Telewest have ALWAYS refused to release from contract on this basis. The only reason people are making noises here is because ntl used to, and now don't.

Don't agree to a contract if you don't like what's in it. There's no point signing it then bleating that it's not fair because you prefer someone else's contract.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

In case you aren't aware Orange provide mobile phones.

If you managed to get out of a contract that way I'd be very, very surprised.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I guarantee you could get out of your contract like that. Like all contracts it means exactly what it states. No specific reason is given for them no longer being able to provide network services therefore any reason,such as moving outside their coverage area, would be admissable.

Hello scrotnig, is there anybody in there? I believe Neil was the one who stated that you couldn't get out of a mobile phone contract in such a manner and you said you totally agreed. All I was doing was refuting an entirely inaccurate statement. There's no point making analogies and then claiming there not relevant.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

You don't REALLY believe that do you? Please tell me you don't!

I am not trying to pick arguments in this and other threads, I'm just trying to tell it like it is. I don't always agree with the result, just as here I don't think the change in the unwritten rule is a good idea, because it isn't.

But sometimes uncomfortable truths have to be told. Some people are flaming me yet all I am doing is saying stuff that people don't really want to hear. Don't shoot the messenger.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

:rolleyes:

Hmmmm, I'd like to hear that conversation.

"Hello I'd like to cancel my contract. Even though I have received a heavily subsidised phone from you"
"And why would you like to do that sir?"
"I'm moving to the 1% of the UK without any coverage from your network"
"And I take it you will never come back into coverage again. Ever?"
"Oh right..."

Somehow I think you'd be put on hold while they laughed themselves silly before you were politely told 12 months is 12 months, thank you for calling and have a nice day.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I think the problem is you don't understand the nature of contracts. They're very explicit legally-binding documents. Both sides have to do exactly what they state or they are in breach of it.

Yes if I was to go and live the north pole for a year (where I assume they have no coverage) and had a year left on my Orange contract, I could definitely terminate it under clause 4.4 (unless they managed to provide me with an alternative at no additional cost). That's what it says, surely there's no possibilty of an arguement here?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

This thread and that other one about unbundling have made me rather cross and I've possibly been a bit abrasive with some people, which I regret. So I am going to retire from both for a while, or at least try to be nicer in them.

All I ask in return is that people please don't flame around the place if told something that isn't what they want to hear. I might even agree with your view, but what I deal in is fact, and sometimes in life the facts ain't nice. I prefer not to deal in bull and just tell it like it is. :D

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Rent a satellite phone.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Yes I could rent a satellite phone, the point is I could aslo cancel my contract with Orange.

scrotnig I think the problem is you're not dealing in facts but assumptions, you're assuming ntl can do what they're trying to do because they've told you they can. It's not uncommon amongst large companies to do this, after all who would fancy going to court with ntl over such a petty issue? Much easier just to pay the bill and have done with it. You cannot enforce a contract if you can't keep your side of it. As I've said before,the only way they could do this is if the contract was to supply services specifically at that address. (Or of course had a clause about moving into non-ntl areas).

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I don't think Scrotnig is the one dealing with assumptions.

He works for Ntl. I used to work for Ntl. I know work for a mobile phone company.

We KNOW that they will not allow cancellations using moving as an excuse.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well I don't really know what to do against such pig-headed stubborness, who you work for is irrelevant. Read clause 4.4 again, it makes no mention of the reason for not being able to provide network coverage, it's legally binding, both parties are subject to its content.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Last time I looked, the ntl contract/T&Cs had more holes than a sieve. There are any number of ways to get out of this situation :-

1. They are required to inform you in writing in advance of any material changes in service - Find a change in the service and argue that it was material. I'm damn sure they never sent you a letter about it.

2.Surely you can come up with one area where the content of the services was significantly reduced? Here's a hint - email, newsgroups, availabilty of support etc etc.

In any case, good luck.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Hmm we are talking about Ntl's terms and conditions and now a mobile phone companies T&C's. So taking the advice of someone who has worked for both isn't relevant is it? :rolleyes:

If you have to leave a mobile phone contract early for whatever reason (except death and thats about it) you will have to pay the remaining monthly costs. Thats it. No ifs, buts or "I'll go to watchdog" will work.

Moving to another area won't work

Now if the Orange network had a catastrophic failure and it could no longer cater for the number of users and you were not getting an acceptable service then they could kick some users off with no comeback.

Of course I'm fighting against people who would argue white is black just to get a response so this is my final word on the matter. I'm bailing out with Scrotnig as I'm getting more and more p'd off and will end up posting something I regret shortly. :Yikes:

PS. The email and newsgroups aren't a guaranteed service so that won't work.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I hope you're not taking anything I say personally, I don't mean to offend either of you.

Again you're reading stuff into the clause which isn't there, talking about catastrophic newtork failure, all it says is reasons beyond our control.

Let me put one more point to you before going out. Say I did what I said before, take out a years contract with Orange, but have to move to the North Pole after 1 month. i try to cancel under clause 4.4, they refuse, it goes to court. I say I'm cancellin under clause 4.4 which states I can cancel if Orange are unable to provide network coverage for reasons beyond their control. They say, ah we didn't mean if you moved we meant if there was a catastrophic network failure. I say you should have said that then. Who do you think will win?

Have a good evening.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I'd say Orange

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

To return to the original poster's issue:

He has no legal right to cancel, *however* he has clearly been told at point of sale that he could indeed do so should he find himself in the circumstances he now does find himself in.

Therefore, I believe that ntl as a company should honour this without question. It will probably take a manager to do it but it should be honoured.

I am confident that someone senior in his region would be able to resolve this. Perhaps instead of all this fighting someone could find out what region the poster is from and try and find a useful contact for that region.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

So in a situation in court where Orange admit to not stating in the contract what they meant, you think they wouldn't have to stick to the legally-binding agreement between us but could amend the contract on the fly as it were?And you accuse me of arguing that white is black!

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Can't believe I am on this forum at this time on a friday nite...

I wasn't the original poster. I'm in a similar boat to the original poster, but what I also have is a verbal promise from my original salesman that NTL would cancel my contract without penalty if I moved to a non-cabled area. It's a case of whether or not NTL would take this verbal promise into account. If they do honour it, what's stopping other people in this forum from claiming that they also checked with their original salesperson that they could do this? I guess, do it if you can be convincing enough!

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

In some cases, I've known salespeople actually put it in the notes, though not very often.

I think you should definitely try it and not just accept what you've been told. I think it's very peculiar that this rule has been changed, although I wasn't a salesman in my last role I told quite a few people they'd be ok in this regard and am more than a little peeved to discover the rules have changed while I wasn't looking and I will now look like a liar!

I actually haven't seen any official notification that this rule HAS changed, I have just 'heard' that it has. My current role means that I wouldn't get any such notification anyway, but that's beside the point. I might investigate next week to see if this rule really HAS changed or whether it's just certain people trying it on.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

But they wouldn't have broken their contract. They can still provide services to you in the UK. If you choose to move then Orange wouldn't be breaking the contract.
Getting back on topic the person at the start of this thread is moving. Not his choice but Ntl can still supply services at the address. They are not removing the services or forcing him to move. If someone else is then that is unfortunate but sadly not Ntl's problem.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

I think that you have hit the nail right on the head with your first paragraph. A contract is a very explicit legally binding document. Interpretation of such a document though can be quite complex and many people think they have found a loophole but rarely does that loophole exist.

If you were to rely on moving to the north pole as a get out with orange then you would sadly be mistaken. You would be relying on clause 4.7 of Oranges terms and conditions as set out at http://www.orange.co.uk/talkplans/tplan_tc.html which is that Orange is no longer able to provide access to their Network. Moving to the north pole means that you are moving out of their network area but you would still have access to the network if you moved back to its coverage area. Any court would laugh at you if you tried to use that as a get out.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Ok Ian possibly, I think it's a mute point but I can see what you mean. I'd certainly argue against it but maybe that's just because I'm argumentative! I still think ntl cannot enforce their contract on another address unless they explicitally state it.Hopefully someone will put them to the test, unfortunately that's vey unlikely - large companies get away with this because the people who need the money the most can't possibly afford to argue about it.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

ok - This is the official line in summary format: -


When siging up for ntl: services you must agree to and abide by the residential terms & conditions of service. To view the terms & conditions online, please visit http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential. The current process is clear; If you leave your ntl: cabled property to move to a non-ntl: cabled area, within your 12 months contract then -

• You may either take ntl:'s indirect service, ntl:freedom, or
• Pay a penalty fee for the premature termination of services.

The latter would apply if you were leaving the UK etc as ntl:freedom is unavailable outside of the UK. Services can only be cancelled within contract in cases fitting section 20 (cancellation rights) of the terms & conditions.

It's important to point out the ntl: is not the only company to employ this method however it is strongly recommended (and far from unreasonable to expect) that all people read, understand and ask relevant questions prior to installation - and subsequent agreement to the terms & conditions. Once you have agreed to the terms & conditions, you have agreed to receive or become legally liable for services for a period of 12 months from the point of installation.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Nowhere in those terms and conditions does it mention anything about moving to a non-ntl cabled area. I don't really know how to makes this any clearer, the content of that document is the agreement between ntl and the customer. They can take any official line they like, it doesn't matter one bit, when you sign the contract both parties are agreeing to be legally bound by the terms and conditions, nothing more nothing less. Yes the current process is clear, ntl have neglected (unbelievably) to include any provision in their terms and conditions for a customer moving to a non-cabled area. I would contend you could terminate the contract under clause 20ii as they would have significantly reduced the content of their services (i.e. from having a service to having none at all).

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Wakey, Wakey. Would you use that clause if you went blind then?

They haven't reduced the content of their service at all, it's still there where you agreed it should be installed. Now if you want to insist on your version of your rights you can ask them to move the equipment at your cost to your new location. :D

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

How would me going blind make ntl significantly reduce the content of their services? Admittedly it would effect my ability to enjoy them, but that isn't mentioned in clause 20ii. People are constantly making foolish anologies without thinking them through.

Haven't ntl employees already confirmed that the agreement is to supply services to the person only, and is not specific to an address?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Moving away from where the services are supplied also only affects your ability to enjoy them, they are still there at the place you agreed they should be.

The agreement is made with the person but for supply at the point which you agreed to.

Taking your thinking to a logical conclusion you could sue NTL for breach of contract if they didn't provide the services to you on the bus to work and at work when you got there. Get real and wake up to the fact that your argument would not stand up in court.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

No I couldn't sue them for breach of contract for not providing services on the bus or at work because it's a residential service i.e. specific to where I reside. I can sit here all day refuting your foolish anologies, think about them first.

If what you say about the agreement being for supply at only the initial point is correct (and I can find nowhere where it states this perhaps you could point me in the right direction) then anyone moving to a cabled area would need a new 12 month contract and would still be liable for the remainder of the term on the old one. Employees of ntl have categorically stated that this is not the case.

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

But the contract is with you, not where you are, so you say. Go on refuting then, here's another. Go stay at a relatives house for the week or two and ask NTL to provide your services at that residential address whilst you are there? Do you think they will or would give you compensation if they didn't? Your views on that? I am stuck here all day and am enjoying the laugh at some of the stupid interpretations of the law.

NTL can choose not to penalise a customer if they so wish but you are quite free to sue them for breach of contract if you wish and if you win have two contracts to pay instead of one. :D

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

Well that's just silly. Obviously I wouldn't expect ntl to provide me with services temporarily at a relative's house. For the purpose of the law, my permanent address would be unchanged. If I was in court and asked to give my address I would have to give my permanent address.

So now you're saying the contract is still valid but ntl cancel it and produce a new contract for the customer to sign, of length 12 months minus the time already spent at the old address?

Re: NTL Broadband Terms & Conditions Moving House?
 

cr80123, have you got a contract with NTL and have you read it?
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Well, the football is nearly ready to start so.

If you have a contract with NTL for the supply of services don't just look at the back of the agrrement. On the front section 1 asks for details about yourself including the Service Address. The contract DOES specify the address where the services are to be provided and as long as NTL can continue to supply services at THAT address then moving house doesn't give you a get out from the contract.