Capital punishment
 

I think you all know my views just wanted to put it to the vote.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I like the impartial tones of the "No" option.....

:D

Re: Capital punishment
 

I believe that there are good points to be made on both sides of this one. However, I won't be taking part in this poll, purely because of the sheer impartiality of the statements - 'no, because I wish to waste my taxes on more cells' is far too wooly (and contentious), and there should also be a straight, carte blanche yes vote as well.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I am in favour of capital punishment although I do see the problems with miscarriages of justice. I think that anyone proven of serial murder ought to be executed as the chances of a miscarriage of justice is significantly reduced. (Even though it is miniscule anyway)....

People who have been convicted of murder once ought to be sentenced to life and that life should mean life. There should be opportunites for appeals of course to help avoid miscarriages.

Another interesting debate is "Do you think that murderers should be killed in the same way as their victims??"...

I don't think Paedofiles should be executed but their punishments are ludicrously lenient...

Re: Capital punishment
 

You are right and I'm sorry was a little :mad: when I did the poll,

Re: Capital punishment
 

Ask a mod to change it for you :)

Re: Capital punishment
 

Don't worry - as I said earlier, I understand what you're saying :tu:

The trouble is that it's difficult to tie it down to a single option, as there are a number of problems with that. For example, what if someone (who has pleaded his innocence all along) is convicted of murdering a policeman, and is put to death. However, 5 years later, new forensic evidence comes to light, and the authorities find that it definitely wasn't him, and somebody else is found guilty - it's not like you can bring the innocent man back.

Also (using the policeman analogy again), how far does it stretch - would you still get the death penalty if you murdered him when he was off-duty?

Unfortunately, it often isn't a clear-cut case of 'Yes, he did it - hang him'. For those who know a little of the 'recent' history of capital punishment in Britain, I just need to use the exceptionally open-ended term 'Let him have it, Chris', and it shows what is so difficult about this.

Re: Capital punishment
 

As I say the evedance has to be overwhelming in order to have the punisment and i mean forensic evidence to be spot on.

If over whelming then in a bit.......:dozey:

Re: Capital punishment
 

I understand your point, but sadly that would bring us down to there level, there has to be another way, I mean cells aint that big, and Jails can be located on islands, certain things will have to be done, relying on heavy amounts of evidence just wont win it with me.

We are a modern day civilised race, we dont run around saying off with his head because of what someone did, and because we have evidence, even though it is more technological and definate.

We need to look into more options, perhaps a brig a basic craft in space ( large one ) with AI G gravity and leave them there of course with life support etc. Would be expensive but save earth space for jails?? depends on which way we want to go. Back to being barbaric, or perhaps to something more expensive but which stands a remote chance of working.

Re: Capital punishment
 

With the choices offered, had to vote 'no'......

Re: Capital punishment
 

There's no way I'm voting on such a meaningless poll as this one. However, suggest to me a more reasonable set of options and I'll edit it and re-set the counters.

:)

Re: Capital punishment
 

What a great idea you want to be an MP you will get my vote :D
____________

Good 1 sorry I was a little hasty.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Snag is not everyone see's things my way because I think so out of the box as one called it.

Personally I would train them up and make them under heavy guard make a base for us on moon.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Not voting for such a badly-worded poll. Take it from me that my position is 'No way'.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I voted no but after thought, perhaps a administrator of the forum, could put in better options and reset the counters, I do think this thread could get somewhere with the right options to vote for.

Noticing we have been getting some really good debateable threads recently.

Re: Capital punishment
 

It's a difficult debate.

Just when you think there is a case for capital punishment, you then hear of a miscarriage and someone is released 15years after their conviction.

That is the worry.

I think there is a case for capital punishment, but only for certain terrible crimes crimes and only then after a long period on "death row".

Re: Capital punishment
 

Would vote under the new options, but being told I cannot :erm: .

Re: Capital punishment
 

I'll take that as an invitation to edit then. :)

Everybody please note, I have re-set the poll scores to zero as I have changed the options available.

If the poll won't let you vote a second time, 'quote' me in the thread with your preference and I can alter the score for you manually.

Re: Capital punishment
 

No, never

is my vote. Hope I did that right.

Re: Capital punishment
 

With the improvements in forensic evidence gathering the opportunities for miscarriages of justice is constantly reducing.

IMO the criteria is simple if your a rapist, a serial killer, or you preplan a murder for personal monetary gain you hang for it when your caught.

If the authorities can't prove this comprehensively then lock them up for a "full life" sentence, not the current Micky mouse out in 8 years lark.

I voted yes.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Put me down for 'murder' plz...........if you get my meaning :erm:

Re: Capital punishment
 

Chris, would you stick me down for the 2nd option please murder and other limited crimes, it wont let me vote again :(

cheers

Re: Capital punishment
 

There are only 3 votes is this right?

Re: Capital punishment
 

I re-set the counters to zero when I changed the poll options, but vB won't allow people to vote a second time even if the poll is changed.

I have now added scores for:
Ramrod-option 1
Stu-option 2
AndrewJames-option 3

Re: Capital punishment
 

Can you add me for No Never, thanks

Re: Capital punishment
 

:tu: Thanks mate.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Done :)

Re: Capital punishment
 

Thanks

Re: Capital punishment
 

well im all up for it but get the nagging thought that if im found in a room of dead people with blood all over me and a mad look in my eye im gonna be killed and i would hate that as i may not of done it you gotta be pretty sure they done it and u cant always do that .....


but i am all up for harsher punishment while i am no prison expert the days of hard labour seem to be gone

Re: Capital punishment
 

I fear the issue is not one of should we have capital punishment, more of the increasingly do-gooder attitude to sentencing and more worryingly parole.

If a life sentence meant life imprisonment, there would be a serious message sent out to the gun culture criminal fraternity. That might make them think that the risks were too great and so desist from bahaviour. When however they get a life, or indeed any other sentence but know the "with good behaviour" they can get out with only a small portion of the penalty served, the deterrent risk of sentencing is not there. OK, so strong sentencing woudl stop the impulse, crimes of passion, and the like but it still sends out a stong message. The punishment needs to fit the crime.

The parole system should be reversed. A sentence given is the minimum term. Additional time is added for rule breaking. Yes that would cause a problem for behaviour of lifers, who now have no incentive. The change requires a fundamental rethink of sentencing policy.

As ever we run the risks of miscarriages of justice, and thus I do not beleive it is safe, or ever will be safe despite ever improving forensic science, for us to have a death penalty. If a miscarriage occurs you can give someone back the remainder of their life, if they are still around, but not if society has sanctioned their execution. We have to be very very certain of our ground.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I see where your coming from there, but such change requires time..yet we could bring alcatraz back... that system worked well put them on a island...or in space on a Brig.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Quick quiz:

Are most murders in the UK:

1) domestic in nature
2) the result of criminal fraternity gun culture

Answers on a folded copy of the Daily Mail front page.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I think answer 1

Re: Capital punishment
 

Haven't got access to that at the mo, presumably there was a front page story on just that today :dozey:

However traditionally a large proportion of victims do know their killers and domestic situations will form a large proportion of that. Indeed domestic crime as a whole is a serious issue. I'm not sure sentencing policy would have that much impact as a deterrent, as I'm not sure that the aggressor in domestics are ever concerned by the consequences of their actions even on their "loved one" let alone the risks of being locked up.

On the other hand the gun culture and similar criminal behaviour often stems from a perception that reward can come from violence, be it just simple kudos with peers, or financial from sales and the like. If sentencing penalties are harsh then the risks might outweigh the rewards providing a true deterrent.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Has to be no as there have been too many cases of folk being fitted up and mistaken identity.If the death sentence had been passed these people would have been dead and there would be no way of rectifying that.Bad enough that they lose their freedom for long periods of time but at least there is a chance that they can get justice eventually. :(

Re: Capital punishment
 

I agree.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I've only recently changed my mind on this topic. I think there is a need now for the death penalty, providing the defendant is proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt and the jury is unanimous. Certainly, it should apply with the murder of police officers, multiple murders and terrorist acts.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I would be interested to know if skuk4u would have had the women found guilty of smothering their babies (more than one so technichally 'serial killers') put to death. Also what would he have done with Barry George and Michael Stone? Cast iron convictions? Happy to send them to the gallows?

Just wondering like.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Well in the case of the Birmingham 6 and the Guildford 4 it was proved beyond a doubt originally that they were guilty.IF the death sentence had been still on the statute then 10 innocent poeple could have been executed. :(

Re: Capital punishment
 

That would be the majority of cases then ... For a start, beyond reasonable doubt is the standard that all criminal cases have to pass. You can't convict someone otherwise. As for jury unanimity, I have no statistics on that, but I know that judges do not accept majority verdicts unless jury deliberations have failed to produce a verdict after an extended period.

I wonder whether the Guildford Four were unanimously convicted? Or the Birmingham Six? I mean, they were Irish, weren't they? They were in the IRA whether we could prove it or not, they were definitely up to no good. No need for the well-meaning jury to know the confessions were beaten out of them, or forged, eh?

I wonder whether Angela Cannings was unanimously convicted of murdering two of her babies thanks to the dodgy evidence of that arrogant ar$e of an 'expert' witness, Roy Meadow? I would have thought multiple murderers would be prime candidates for the hemp fandango, were we to return to such barbarism.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Only on the radio today do I hear that the only bloke to be imprisoned following the Omagh bombing has had that conviction ruled as "unsafe". Sky News Linky The higher profile cases, involving terrorism, serial killings, police officers etc, are potentially the ones were errors may be made and overlooked precisely because of the emotions surrounding the issue.

Criminal law has always required proof beyond reasonable doubt, which is why it's often hard to gain convictions in the first place. That requirement hasn't prevented miscarriages of justice, in the past and has no guarantee that it can do so in the future.

Re: Capital punishment
 

In criminal cases we employ the jury system, providing the jury weighs the evidence listens to the judge's advice; clearly, I cannot comment on individual cases relating to manslaughter, but I stress that beyond reasonable doubt is what we would be looking for.

Frankly, I will never be in a position to enact this, I know I shall be seen as some kind of hideous monster, some kind of illiterate nutter, or choose whatever you like. But for almost my whole life I felt the death penalty was wrong, local case, Hanratty made me feel certain the innocent could die, there have of course been others, but now we know now that there is sufficient evidence to show Hanratty was guilty in 1962 for the so called A6 murder case.


:rolleyes:

Re: Capital punishment
 

"Hard cases make bad law".

Re: Capital punishment
 

I think with the likes of Ian Huntley and Peter Sutcliffe etc. I am strongly in favour of capital punishment.

There were plenty of 'do gooders' trying to get Myra Hindley out of prison and WHY ?? There is still the body of Keith Bennet to be found !
How much of taxpayers money does it cost to keep these serial killers in prison.
With today's forensic science and DNA I'm sure there is less room for miscarriages of justice.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Can you pop me down as a murder only for this one.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I vote yes (option 2).

I also believe that corporal punishment should be reinstated.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I have voted for option 2. My only concern would be this, the courts would have to be 100% certain that the person that they would be condemning to death, is the guilty party.
Certain crimes such as murder, rape, paedaphilia and the such like would in my opinion have to be included.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Everyones entitled to there own views here, remember peeps. Curious though to how this would be done, because not many people now would be happy giving the injection or throwing the eleccy switch to the chair, as in a sence that means you took the persons life.. this could disturb some people..:dozey:

Re: Capital punishment
 

You simply get the 'in mates to do the dirty work' easy

Re: Capital punishment
 

Serial Killers killing Serial Killers... :erm: okay this worlds not a full shilling anymore.

I know that we cannot make them behave and understand our rules and laws, some of these people are twisted behond repair, but I just dont think its right to kill them.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I think most people would guess correctly that my vote is "No, never".

Re: Capital punishment
 

I've voted "No, never".


I do not believe it is right for the state to take someone's life as punishment. Keep murderers locked up for life, but don't kill them.


There is also the miscarriage of justice issue, as others have pointed out. People have been executed before, only for it to later have been found that they were wrongfully convicted. Also has happened (& still happens) in the US. IIRC, there was one state a few years ago, which imposed a moratorium on the use of the death penalty after it was found that large numbers of its death row prisoners should never have been convicted.

Re: Capital punishment
 

Whats 100% sure? A jury convicts on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt. If there is doubt a not guilty verdict is returned. All people found guilty were, I think, what you would call 100%. Unless of course you're trying to introduce into british law varying degrees of guilt. A bit guilty, quite guilty, guilty and definately guilty. It's a novel idea!
____________

sally clark & angela canning were found guilty of "serial killings". You would like both to have been executed? Nice one!

Re: Capital punishment
 

Umm, would I be right in thinking that the descriptions of the things that we are voting for have changed?

Considering that I voted right at the very start, and that my vote is now being counted against a category / description that I wouldn't have voted for, doesn't that make a complete mockery of having a vote in the first place?

I know I could just vote again but doesn't that sort of defeat the point?

Re: Capital punishment
 

sally clark & angela canning were found guilty of "serial killings". You would like both to have been executed? Nice one![/QUOTE]

Sorry Andrew, please accept my apology, I was off on one and didn't read your post properly.

Re: Capital punishment
 

No worries. respect to you for apologising and being mature enough to do so. :tu:

Re: Capital punishment
 

From page two:

Re: Capital punishment
 

:dunce:

Doh!!

Nice one Raist :clap:

Re: Capital punishment
 

LOL

:beer:

Re: Capital punishment
 

Done. Sorry for the delay!

Re: Capital punishment
 

Sorry to go of a a tangent but should life mean life? I am against the death penalty, whilst I may have more chance of winning the lottery than being convicted of murder I dread to think of my mental state should I be wrongly convicted of same. I think that convicted murderers should never be released regardless of the circumstances. If at a later date they appeal successfully then release and compensate them, otherwise throw away the key.

However, I would sooner see a 1000 murderers go free than execute 1 innocent person.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I am against capital punishement.

In the states capital punishment has been shown to be a weak deterrent. The risk of death has no effect on the person who is about to commit the crime. Here is some evidence of that:



Moving on....The sort of mind-set you would need to be in, to commit the serious and appalling crimes that capital punishment could be used for, would mean they are not going to think of their punishment logically. These are crimes were the person is either mentally unbalanced, emotional, or desperate. Even if they were perfectly sane then they would think they could get away with it anyway. So capital punishment is not effective in reducing crime.

As for prisons being too full then capital punishment is not effective. Very few people are in prison for this type of crime. Serial killers and the worst murders do not make up a large number of the prison population. Most of it is made up of other crimes such as robbery, assault, and crimes linked to drugs etc. So the death penalty will not reduce overcrowding (even if it did, killing people to make space is a stupid idea anyway!!)

Thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s before we even get into the difficulties involved with deciding what should be considered a death penalty. Murder? Well murder isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t always clear cut, its not a case of someone kills someone in cold blood and thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s that! There was one case where a man had come home to his wife and she told him she was cheating on him. She then continued to boost about this and tell him that she never loved him, and that he was a joke. She continues bragging, insulting him and saying it had gone on since before they were married. He lashed out and the resultant blow was enough to kill her. He didnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t get manslaughter and got charged with murder instead. Should that be enough?

What about someone whose need for drugs has over-powered any sort of logical thinking and he steals to get money for drugs? The victim attempts to stop him and he attacks the victim. Leading to that personââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s death? Should that be enough?

Hit and run? Murder out of anger, emotion or desperation? Quite young? Mentally unbalanced? Where do you draw the line?

Capital punishment does not act as a way to reduce crime, reduce prison levels, or keep the public safer. There will always be a case of one or two wrong convictions so it doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t do much for justice either.

Is this nothing more than satisfying the human urge for revenge? And if it is, isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t that an awful way to deal with justice? Justice should always been fair and balanced and never should the emotion of a case get in the way

Finally it is far better to let that person sit in a cell for the rest of his life and live with his own conscience than to put him out of his misery quickly

Re: Capital punishment
 

Except that simply does not happen. 'Life' seems to mean about 10 years. :afire:

Re: Capital punishment
 

Aye life should mean life, in a cell, on your own..with just a bible ( or wiccan book sorry I am Wiccan ) relative to there religion, a toilet shower etc..none of this better you behave the more you can do.. that fuels murders to fake being nice.. get out and commit more crime.

Re: Capital punishment
 

thats not the issue we are discussing here though

Re: Capital punishment
 

Nice try.

However, it is part of the issue - if life ment exactly that - then many people who support the use of the death penalty would support prison as an alternative.

Re: Capital punishment
 

I wasnt trying anything. I agree with you that life should mean life (to a degree). But the topic is should capital punishment exist in the uk. I dont think it should for the reasons above