Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

oh lord what will thay let him do next :scare:


Ripper visits father's ashes site

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

If we believe that convicted criminals have no human rights left at all, then we should have done with it and send them to the gallows on conviction rather than locking them up for decades. If, on the other hand, we believe in rehabilitation alongside punishment, then it is our duty to allow even those who have committed the foulest crimes some basic human dignities such as a single visit to the last resting place of a parent. I see nothing wrong in Sutcliffe being allowed to make this visit.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Not being funny but he should rot in prison and never be allowed out of his cell let alone to his fathers grave.

You tell that to the families of the murder victims and see what they would say.:(

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Totally agree :tu:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I think Chris T has it spot on as well.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

As Towny has said, he is in prison as a matter of rehabilitation (and yes, I am aware that it's unlikely that Sutcliffe will ever be realised), and it is also his human right to be allowed to visit his fathers grave. If you would like to infringe on his rights as a human being, then that would have to be extended to everyone in prison, starting with those who haven't paid their television licence and working up - I fail to see that people would have the same knee-jerk reaction.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I'm quite sure that most if not all of the families would say exactly what you just did. This is why it is a good thing that our justice system is in the hands of people who are capable of taking a step back, looking at the bigger picture and being objective.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I'm sure the families of the victims would have something to say about it. He should have no privelidges.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:rant:
Ok look at it like this if you sister had been raped knifed abused for several hours plus other women (I know it sounds harsh) would you not want the worst to happen to the evil man Sutclife?

Would you be at home when you hear it on the news that Sutclife is going to his dads grave and thinking 'oh I'm glade that man is in rehabilitation for his crime so pleased that he is also going to see his fathers grave, hopefully it will cheer him up for his sins.'

Sorry the man should have been hung for his crimes.

We are fair to soft today hence to many people in prison.
:rant:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

He was unable to do any harm, and visiting a relative's grave is hardly a holiday.

Perhaps it will give him insight into the pain he's caused others.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:clap: And :welcome: Enjoy ;)

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Hi Skunk4u and cheers for the welcome :)

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

You're asking the wrong person, Skunkie my friend. I'm a Christian of the born-again kind (as most regulars on this board are well aware!). I believe in forgiveness and restoration for all people while they are alive, and judgement and damnation only after death. And I believe that our responsibility is to find our own forgiveness and restoration while we are alive, and to help others find the same, not to hasten them towards a meeting with their maker.

As for horrible things happening to my family: Well, our family has had more than its share of tragedy, though thankfully not a murder. So I'll thank you not to assume how I might react to it. Being a Christian is about recognising the right thing to do, and then calling on divine strength in order to do it. Still, when bad things have happened, I am glad to say I was adult enough to recognise that it was a good thing that it was not my responsiblity to meet out retribution/punishment/whatever.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Peace :Peaceman:

And just to let you know I'm a Christian too. :Yikes:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:Peaceman: - of course. :)

Glad to hear you're a Christian ... in which case, don't you think John 8 3-11 is the right pattern to follow when dealing with people whose crimes might be seen as deserving a death sentence?

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I am Wiccan of origin, and I see nothing wrong with this, in fact I see it as a positive thing, he still is a human being, just one who has done things which require his removal from society for the greater good and safety of others.


But being able to visit his fathers grave, is something I could not refuse, it would just have to be at the prisons own time. And of course under heavy supervision to make sure he didnt scarper.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Hey I'm a Christian but no full on Bible hunting preacher. I'm not into the verse thing

Quote:

John 8 3-11

????
I believe in an eye for an eye if evidence is perfect for a conviction.
And you being a Christian will except my views.;)

I hate getting into an argument with you.:erm: You scare me :tu:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

In reply to thought, of the familes who was affected by his crimes, they would be informed and assured that he would be under heavy guard.

Such a heavy guard should ensure while he has peace to visit the grave, he is under heavy guard.

I could not refuse anyone the right to pay his respects, or go church, but like I stated above it would be at the prisons own time.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I agree entirely.
____________

And yet again I have to point out in a thread that this is *WHY* we have an independant judiciary because there are too many people who cannot disassociate their emotions from the facts.

The families will no doubt say that he should be strung up/ left to rot/ whatever, but they cannot (nor should we expect them to) look at this from an impartial point of view.

Regrettably, however there are also those who aren't family members who think the same way.

If we want to think that we *are* "better" than Peter Sutcliffe, we need to *prove* that by, for instance, showing compassion where he didn't.

PS I'm an atheist...!! :D

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Hey, I'm not a preacher either ... well, not often, anyway.

As a Christian, I respect your right to your views, but I also have the right to say if I think you're wrong. ;) Some words from Jesus: "You have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' - but I say to you, don't resist an evil person, but if someone hits you on your right cheek, turn to him your left cheek as well."

But I shall say no more on this that would turn the discussion into a religious thread.

I hope I scare you in a good way ... :erm: :D

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:clap:

Why regret? I'm not a family member but I know if I was I would think the same as I think now, with me not being a family member. I'm a little confused on that 1 :confused:

Hey i dont think I'am better I am better

I dont need to prove nothing! never been arrested never murdered and never raped. And never will. I don't need to show Compassion. I show compassion for the families who are far more important in my eyes than Sutclife

Good on you.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Yes, it's evident that you haven't thought this through.

By implication considering one person to be "more important" than another means that another is *less* important or less worthy and that is how *he* considered his victims.

If we are *better* than him we must consider *everyone* to be of equal worth, *NO MATTER* what our personal, emotional, opinions may be of what they have done.

There are plenty of examples of atrocities committed in this world when one group has decided that another is "less than human" or "less worthy" etc. Do you *really* think that is a good way of dealing justice??

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

http://forums.ntlhell.co.uk/style_em...t/sadangel.gif

I give in :tu:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I wouldn't argue with any of that,

But, and this is only a suggestion, maybe he should have visited the graves of his many victims first, and asked for some forgiveness before visiting his fathers.

PS I was born into catholicism, and got out as soon as I could. I now worship the almighty dollar.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Thank you.

Are you *KIDDING*???

Can you imagine how the Tabloids would likely play that?

"Can they NEVER rest in peace?"

"Ripper is freed to visit victims' graves - Families distraught"

"This man should never have been let out," said one grief stricken relative. "To let him visit my sister's grave is like allowing him to desecrate it"...

etc etc with much foaming at the mouth.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Well it was only a suggestion.

The reason I made it was, letting him out to visit his fathers grave was an act of compassion by the authorities that a) they did not have to do and b) he did not deserve.

I just thought the pill may be sugared a bit if it shown that in order to earn his visit he had to show similar compassion for his victims.

The tabloids may have played it and some relatives may have been abhorred by it, but I would be interested to know wha the families would really have thought if he had done that.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

<LI>30 Oct 1975: Wilma McCann, 28, Leeds
<LI>20 Jan 1976: Emily Jackson, 42, Leeds
<LI>5 Feb 1977: Irene Richardson, 28, Leeds
<LI>23 Apr 1977: Patricia Atkinson, 32, Bradford
<LI>26 Jun 1977: Jayne MacDonald, 16, Leeds
<LI>1 Oct 1977: Jean Jordan, 20, Manchester
<LI>21 Jan 1978: Yvonne Pearson, 21, Bradford
<LI>31 Jan 1978: Helen Rytka, 18, Huddersfield
<LI>16 May 1978: Vera Millward, 40, Manchester
<LI>4 Apr 1979: Josephine Whitaker, 19, Halifax
<LI>2 Sep 1979: Barbara Leach, 20, Bradford
<LI>20 Aug 1980: Marguerite Walls, 47, Leeds
17 Nov 1980: Jacqueline Hill, 20, Leeds
The victims why should we show compasion??????

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Because Sutcliffe has been in prison for over 20 years and, as has already said, deserves the basic human right of being allowed to visit his fathers grave / ashes. regardless of the crime she committed.

At the end of the day, there is no risk to the public for a number of reason - security will be very tight, he was almost blinded by a fellow inmate a few years ago, and he is fully aware that there is very little chance of him ever being released.

Producing a list of the women that he killed is somewhat pointless - everyone is aware of 'The Yorkshire Ripper' and what he did. However, why should he be denied a basic right, just because some people don't agree with it - we might not like it but, ultimately, it will make no difference.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

He has shown no remorse what so ever for the families involved he does not even care about the familes, or anyone for that matter. He is evil its not as if he killed one person he killed 'VICTIMS : 13 dead, 7 survivors.' what is wrong with you people? If it happend in the US he would have been dead by now and we would not even be having this debate.

True but why reward him? Yes security was very tight but how much did that cost the tax payer (you as well as me) i rather have given the cost to thfamiles as compo. To glade he was all most blinded by an inmate shame he did not kill him for the above reason. Hoorar he has little chance of being released. The guys a killer.

That much is true but never the less in my view still very very wrong :mad:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

(Somebody correct me if I have the facts wrong here)

Didn't peter sutcliffe refuse to tell the police and victims families where he had buried his victims, therefor refusing them the right to grieve for their loved ones at a grave.

shouldn't Peter Sutcliffe have been given the same answer?

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I think you'll find that it is not a basic right and that is what is annoying everyone so much.

And that he has done nothing to "earn" his visit.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:clap: At last and I thought for a minute I was going mad :banghead:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I may be wrong, but I don't think he did bury them, I thought he killed them and then ran off.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

But it didn't happen in the US, so that sort of conjecture really is pointless.


So you would condone another inmate receiving an increased sentence for killing Sutcliffe? This suggests a certain conflict - you think that Sutcliffe should be killed, but would you be the one to do it, and then spend the rest of your life in prison?

I understand your view, but I just don't agree with it :shrug:
____________

Actually, I could be wrong but wasn't that Brady and Hindley?

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I think he did show some remorse, although we do not know if this remorse was heartfelt or if he thought it was the right thing to do.

This is a quote from one of his confessions

I do hope that he knows what he has done and does have remorse, as this will means that he will suffer with this for the rest of his life.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Agreed.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Well lets just hope the next serial killer gets this treatment I'm sure the world will be a much better place.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

The responses I have seen to this thread (yours included) are exactly why I agree with Chris T. You cannot allow emotion to interfere with Justice. People tend to judge criminals on how they would react rather than the facts of the case. I'll accept that inevitably emotion has some effect on our current system (Judges and Jurors are human after all, so they are not immune to the effect).

There seems to be a certain "String 'em up" element on this forum.

Well, Killing serial killers does not work. I have read a little about this, and basically, as I understand it, the primary reason a lot of Serial Killers (including the Yorkshire Ripper) kill is to generate publicity. If you kill them, then the amount of publicity that generates would be a huge reward for them. The really bad ones also consider their own death to be a bonus.

Another way to look at it: They have the death penalty in a lot of states in America, yet they still have serial killers.

I am all for locking serial killers up, don't get me wrong. I don't agree that they should be treated differently to any other prisoners though, In fact, if it is true that they do it for publicity, then treating them exactly the same as other prisoners (and denying them access to the media) will be a better punishment.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Well said :tu: , although I understand him under guard seeing his fathers resting place, your point drives home the truths :tu: .

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

To be honest quiet the opposite it seem to be my view only. Are we living in a soft society. I know it wont make are world a better place by "String 'em up" element but would save a whole load of cash on cells = Tax.
I have no time for killers Rapest pedos. But i'm drifting :notopic:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I believe he was sentenced to "life" with a minimum recommendation of 30years. He could potentially be freed in a few years.......

What will our thread be like then??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclose...eripper1.shtml

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I agree that there's the potential but, in all likelihood, he won't be released (somewhat like Myra Hindley), although I am prepared to be proved wrong.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

The Public outcry would be immense, and hopefully if they DID they would include some form of GPS tracking on him which is monitored 24hours a day 7 days a week 365days a year ( 366 on a leap ).


Soon as he breaks curfew he is back behind bars. Unless his Microsoft car crashes and he has to find Ctrl+Alt+Del. Then he can have BSOD for rest of his life while trying to get out of the car.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Because we are (or should be) better than him.

If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,
soon the whole world will be blind and toothless. - Mahatma Gandhi.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

If it was the case of an eye for an eye that would mean he would have been put to the death. Its a case of killing 13 innocent women and nearly killing countless others and ruining their lives. Some of whom probably feel like prisoners as they are too scared to ever trust anyone or go out alone . He should have no privelidges.

I was a child when he was on the loose and I remember the fear all women had of this nutter :mad:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

You entirely miss the point.

If you do unto others as they have done unto you, you are no better than them.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:tu: Agreed.

p.s: anyone else having issues copying and pasting? :rolleyes:

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I'm sorry if you think I am wrong but how is cold blooded murder the same as revoking someones priviledges ?

I am a compassionate person and a mum to be in three weeks.

Do you think he was thinking about the victims parents when he killed these women ?

This is my opinion and I'm sorry if you disagree !

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Sutcliffe is not a convicted murderer, he's a pyschiatric patient, therefore he is detained probably a lot longer than most other murderers.
That he commited horrible crimes I dont doubt, but I just wanted to put the point across that he is not a prisoner as such and the law treats him differently and reflects this.

Mopst murderers get out after what 10 years? how long has he been in prison? I think after all this time, allowing him to visit the site where his fathers ashes are scattered is something ALL prisoners are allowed, most even get visits to their parents when they are dying, but sutcliffe did not.
Its all just media bull **** in my eyes, they have not broken any policy or law and they have not let a killer walk the streets unguarded, so what I ask is the problem?

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Off topic here, but are you using firefox?

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

:notopic: warning :notopic: NO I have firefox but using IE6 right now as I keep meaning to kit firefox up with my plugins and themes.


Just the old ctrl+c to clipboard it and ctrl+v would not work...then it did once I refreshed the page :dozey:

edit: thanks though and back on topic now :D

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

I suggest you go back and read the context in which that was written.

I was replying to Skunk4U's comment "The victims why should we show compasion??????

And my response was "Because we are (or should be) better than him. "

If we show no compassion, how can we consider ourselves to be better than him? If we think that he should have no rights, we are acting as if he is somehow "less important" or "less deserving" than someone else. (As I have mentioned already, that sort of attitude has been responsible for genocidal atrocities elsewhere/ when in this world. )

Good for you and congratulations.

No, almost certainly not. But the fact is that *WE CAN* think about such things and act upon them is what makes us "better" than him. Should we demean ourselves by stooping to his level as an act of petty "revenge" on the part of society? I don't think so.

And you are entirely welcome to hold any opinion you want. And I am entitled to disagree with it and will.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Incorrect, Sutcliffe was convicted on murder. His plea of deminished responsibility was revoked.

Somewhere along the way he was transferred to Broadmoor, but he was not sent there from the court.

Re: Ripper visits father's ashes site
 

Is he in a psychiatric hospital?
Last time I checked broadmoor was still officially a hospital for pschotic patients and the criminally insane.

so it seems that although the court refused his pleas of insanity it has later been found that he is errr insane. That means there is a chance he was when he decided that prostitues should all be given a beating with a hammer, which means he didnt willfully commit murder in the eyes of English law. therefor he is not legally a murderer.

Crazy huh? anyway I still think the hoo haa about him being allowed under heavy guard to visit the place his fathers ashes were scattered is complete bull****, every other person would expect to be able to do this, why should we deny it to sutcliffe, a guy that has spent the last 24 -25 years behind bars.

Maybe its because he killed women and made women feel scared, is it this that makes his crimes more heinous?
To be honest theres a hell of a lot more for women to be scared about these days than if a guy who is now going to be fairly old is allowed several hours outside a secure hospital under heavy guard.