Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...lagban?source=

hey they don't like it....now they know what it's like :D :dozey:

Re: Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

Sweet... now remind me about political correctness...

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At last - racial equality. :D:D:D:D

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A LONG way to go before we get that.....

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*wanders off to find something worth-wile reading.

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Ridiculous. They should not be banned from waving flags, and nor should anyone else. It's all very well seeing this as equality at last, but if it ultimately serves to further justify the banning of the Union flag, or St George's cross, then what have we gained in the end?

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I disagree. Everyone should be allowed to wave their flags or no-one should.

Fact is they have CHOSEN, or their parents have, to live in BRITAIN- so they should abide by the customs there and not impose their lifestyle on the inhabitants. When in Rome...

I have no problem with asylum seekers or immigrants if they INTEGRATE and CONTRIBUTE. If they upset the harmony in the country and sponge off benefits they can sod off IMO.

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What on earth has that got do do with people celebrating and waving a flag? People will be banning flags at mardi gra next. Are people in this country really this petty?

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Yeah but it's usually them that stop US celebrating things that we have for years.

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If you think that everyone should be allowed to wave their flags or no-one should, then you are not disagreeing with me. That is what I meant when I said:

Right. So now I live in Scotland, do you think I should not be allowed to wear an England football shirt or fly St George's flag should I want to? Or that a Scot living in London should not be allowed to wear a kilt in Oxford Street on St Andrew's Day?

The overwhelming majority of 'immigrants' and their descendants have done just that. Or are you claiming that the majority of the 3.6 million people in this country who now live here but were born outside the EU are 'spongers'?

Re: Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

When were you ever stopped from celebrating anything? :confused:

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I was referring to them using it as an excuse to ban OUR flag.

slightly different. Look in places like Oldham, Burnley, etc, some parts they've even reflected the ethnic mix by having signs in Urdu. In some parts of England you can't fly the St Georges flag without being told to take it down because it's either "racist" or "inciting racial hatred". I'm not against people flying flags, it's slightly different to alienating the "natives" by demanding their lifestyle, laws, customs are changed. Slightly different to wearing a football shirt, kilt or waving a flag.

Done what, integrated or sponged? Immigrants from Eastern europe 1940s-50s worked hard for the country, as did later immigrants from the Commonwealth eg Asia, Africa, Caribbean. Same can be said for the Turkish "Gastarbeiters" who helped rebuild Germany after WWII.

Immigration is not a problem, it's the people that abuse the immigration and benefit system I have a problem with.

I'm not anti-immigration and I'm not racist. I just think people should be fair and treat others as equals with the right to their opinion.

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Personally, I don't think they should be allowed to wear kilts. Ever. A sudden gust of wind and it could scar me for life :)

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:LOL:

Agree and well put.:rolleyes:

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Depends which way you're facing :Yikes: ;)

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Why roll eyes then?

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You mean you would have a preference?????? :)

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Hang on, who's demanding changes to lifestyle, laws and customs? Yes, places like Burnley have a large ethnic population, but why is this a problem? Anybody who lives in this country is expected to adhere to British law, regardless of their cultural background.

The reason places like your examples have signs in Urdu (amongst others) is because they are needed - if someone comes to this country seeking political asylum for example, they aren't necessarily going to have hung around to learn English before they came, now are they?

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Right. So do we agree that everyone should be allowed to fly any flag, nobody should be allowed to fly any flag, or that only the Union flag, or those of the home nations, should be allowed?

Agreed it's slightly different, but it's not completely different. You appear to be suggesting that some flags are acceptable and others are not, on the basis that certain flags imply that the person waving it has failed to integrate sufficiently into a British way of life.

It's not completely different because Britain itself is a largely artificial construct. Though there is more that unites us than divides us, there are significant cultural (and increasingly political) differences between the home nations. I could be accused of 'failing to integrate' by persisting in being overtly English even though I live in Scotland. Similarly ex-pats living in France have been in the headlines lately for upsetting the locals (setting up English-speaking shops, going round each other's houses for parties, refusing to learn French). They are in France, but still in Europe, which is another artificial construct but nevertheless one that ties the two countries together. How far does this confer a right on those ex-pats to decline to integrate?

Both. You seemed to be implying that you thought a great number of immigrants have failed to integrate and contribute. If that's not what you meant then it's just me misunderstanding you (sorry!).

I agree. Which is why I think muslims should be allowed to fly any flag they choose during their religious celebration, and that anyone else should be allowed to fly the flag of their choice whenever the fancy takes them. Banning flags as described in the news article will achieve nothing.

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I agree but when they are the majority people may think differently.

Why seek political asylum here though, aren't they supposed to go to the nearest safe country? France must be so bad for them...

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Eee, this is gonna be a right old immigration\racist\hate thread.

Living in Burnley, I can say that I see the Red cross flying on many houses & shops still, many of them are Asian too.

As an English citizen in England I have a legal right to fly the flag of England & the Union flag, has anyone the legal right to fly another countries flag while in England?

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Every embassy in London, for a start, conference centres, hotels...

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Dude there looking up?:tired:

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i believe they should be, if this country is 'multi cultural' then atleast ethnic people should be allowed to raise their flag on a day of celebration, if certain areas of the UK have a problem with the st geroges flag or union jack being shown then its not true for the whole country.

its unfair to have a ban on one type of flag but not the rest.

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Well I agree- it should be all or nothing, that's what equality is and if certain groups can't understand that, then tough.

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our dignity as a nation. Because we do soo much for them, and yet we have to change our way of life to suit there religion, all this during Xmas about shops banning Xmas stuff was to suit them.

Its about time it went 50/50, then the average Joe Soap, can know that we are getting into a fair nation.

I for one am sick of English doing this English doing that...and Asians doing sweet Jack all.

its about time they came down to earth, and realised something called playing it fair, and equality..

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We gain dignity by banning people from doing things? This isn't fricking Burma, our nation historically allows people freedom to do what they like, whether that's dignified or not. That's why so many people want to come here from places that don't allow them that freedom. It seems rather strange and un-British to want to throw all that away and have a police state.

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im glad you agree, but it does not change the fact that the people of southall cannot raise the flags of the respective countries, yet those who raise flags of this country can ? thats not equality at all, its nothing to do with intergration and immigration at all nffc, but rather being allowed to celebrate something that has about the same importance as christmas.

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I for one speak my mind when I say.

We have bowed to there rules and allowed them to do there cutural things for ages, we aint saying it is wrong, but whenever we ask a asian community to do stuff its "your being racist" thrown in our faces and we can not go back on them because a massive do is made over everything. Yes before people ask I do have alot of Asian friends, and I get on well with them, because they are making something of there lives here.

It is about time the communities got together and BOTH SIDES draw there lines on what to publically celebrate or what to keep private.

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Yeah but the official religion of this country is Christianity.

They knew that when they emigrated, they know we celebrate Christmas (did they have their holiday and ****up at christmas, think they did :rolleyes: ) so why impose their customs on the rest of us.

If the boot was on the other foot, if we all emigrated to Saudi Arabia or somewhere and the women wore the dresses, and we carried on our customs, drinking, flag waving, wanting time off at Christmas, we'd be punished.

Maybe stopping them flying their flag is wrong. But chances are that would be what British people would get in other countries.

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whilst i agree that asian 'intergration' is questionable at times it does not excuse the fact that this is a celebration of a particular ethnic minority in the UK, its not about telling non-muslims to do this or behave like this but its about being allowed to celebrate eid (like christmas to non muslims)

there was a program which i saw on channel 4 a few days ago. i didnt quite catch it all but it mentioned how Islamiphobia is being misused in the asian community, and brabnding people racists at every oppertunity, but the sam ecan be said for racism against black people, so it evens itself out.

i dont see a problem with this at all :shrug:

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Not much of a chance, I agree this Christmas they did take the mickey with what went on.

I just dont understand why we have to have this rift.. Surely both sides could sit down in a council meeting across the country and come to agreement of both parties on cultural celebrations.

We are both intelligent cultures, capable of a reasonable decision, and able to listen and discuss various issues between cultures.

Or are we barbaric and want everything our own way, and going to end up in another bickering war of racist words.

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I'm sorry, are you saying we lose national dignity by allowing someone to wave the flag of their choice during a religious celebration they have chosen to take part in? If so, you have a pretty flimsy idea about national dignity. Personally I believe there is great dignity in a nation that allows each person to follow his own path yet, by and large, without race-hate riots breaking out all over the place all the time.

And going 50/50 on what? If we give up this, they should give up that? Why does anyone have to give up anything? I'm also puzzled about what the English are doing that 'the Asians' are not ... are they failing to pay their taxes, or refusing to acknowledge the law, or what?

You talk about fair play and equality, but I suspect what you mean is that you would prefer to treat 'them' as equal only once they decide to follow the white man's path.

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So do you agree that in Iraq, Saudi Arabia a Christian minority should be able to wave the England flag, get lashed and celebrate Christmas?

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I am part of the Wiccan community, and hold no grudge over the English Celebrations, in fact I enjoy them, I enjoy seeing happy familes, seeing children happy with new toys and the excitment.

As for the East countries..well thats another matter.....i dont trust them personally as far as I can spit...

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Agreed. At best, all banning flags does is incite tension.

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or just have a war to settle it then??

The line will be drawn sometime, and unless both sides discuss this sort of thing out, racial issues and stupid issues could cause civil problems.

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yes and this country is also supposed to be 'multi cultural'

who is imposing what exactly ? flying a flag and having private celebrations (food etc) is imposing ?

bad choice choosing saudi arabia that is a Islamic strict state where the rules are not democratically justified.

thats open to debate, i have not seen evidence to suggest that to be happening.

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You really are going to have to explain that a little.

To believe this is to go looking for a conflict. There is no such thing as 'us' and 'them', regardless of how the Media might like to pigeon-hole people into 'the Muslim community' or 'the Asian community'. There is no 'us' in the Christian religious sense either, as ably demonstrated by nffc espousing his ideal Christmas as waving a St George's flag and 'getting lashed'. No real Christian, who is serious about following Jesus, would deliberately set out to get plastered, least of all in celebration of the Lord's birthday.

And before I forget, the only thing that prevented me celebrating Christmas this year (i.e. by going to church) was the snow. :)

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No point I would just get torn to shreds either way on here, I will continue to read on though.


My ideas are mind, but I am always told I think to outside the box.

:tu:

Re: Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

I was waving the Welsh national flag at a Stereophonics gig in Oxford a few years back...

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no, i believe that a person in any country shouyld be allowed to celebrate their religions customs in the manner they choose.

i think a few in this thread believe that to be the case and follow that rule of thumb.

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I find myself wondering why it is that we don't get Jews parading through our streets and spouting sermons in the middle of the road. For that matter us Latvians have a rich cultural tradition and interesting national dress but you don't get us demanding the right to take to the streets. Why is it that Muslims feel the need to do this?.......Just wondering......
On the other hand, I have no objection to Muslims parading and waving their little flags about either.......as long as they don't go burning the British flag.


PC gone mad imo. :(ermmmmm.........I remember a brouhaha a few years ago where some middle eastern type slaughtered a goat in the street for some religious reason or other......you agree with that?

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Actually I agree with you- although that is how most people celebrate Christmas here. IMO it's lost its true meaning, doesn't mean people don't use it as an excuse for overextravagance, excessive alcohol consumption and overindulgence.

Fair point. I agree BTW.

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You've probably been told you think outside the box because nobody else will let you in.

Some of your comments are severely outdated at best:

'We' haven't bowed to any rules - as I said earlier, anybody who lives in this country is expected to abide by this countrys rules. If they don't, they can expect the llegal system to take action. Also, it isn't a case off 'allowing them to do their cultural thing' - we live in a country that practises freedom of expression, which includes religious expression (again, within the law).

Shops banning Christmas stuff? Not in Grimsby (where I live), not in Scunthorpe (where I work), and not in good old multi-cultural Birmingham (where my family lives).

That comment in itself is just beneath contempt - a sweeping generalisation that you don't trust anybody from, what, East of Turkey? It's ridiculous that you can just lump the entire Eastern world into one swingeing comment.

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On a lighter note, regarding flag waving. I was puzzled to see England supporters at the recent cricket test match in South Africa flying large Spanish flags with 'Gylo is our King' emblazoned on them. It transpires that the England spin bowler Ashley Giles had a benefit season last year and ordered 1000 commemorative mugs which came with the misprinted caption "Ashley Giles, King of Spain" :D

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Yes, on the subject of flags, I'm always a little confused why the Union Jack gets waved at England football matches....

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Because the English aren't allowed an identity... :(

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Utter rubbish. What's the name of the national team you follow? Does it not have it's own national flag?

Go across to america and talk to a native - they will automatically assume you come from 'England'.

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yeah russ, u can't fly the St George's flag at a football match cos it "racist" but the Union Jack is allowed.

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Yes but St George's flag allegedly incites racial hatred, violence, blah. all propaganda I know but propagated by the Scots running the country :rolleyes:

English is not on these "ethnic origin" questions, usually Welsh and Scottish is.

Several places and residences have been made to take the ENGLAND flag down because ethnic minorities / scots / whoever have complained about it

...

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In 30 years I have NEVER been referred to as an 'ethnic minority'. You show me ONE document which does.

Examples please? Link?

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Funnily enough, every time I've visited the US I've been asked what part of Australia I'm from :rofl:

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The US do have a problem with us Brits who fail to talk like Hugh Grant. My missus (born Londoner) was declared Aussie - by a Seattle waiter who fancied himself as an expert on accents. How we laughed. I blame Neighbours.

?? Ken McLivingstone, I presume, the most influential directly elected man in Britain. No Scots running the place round where I live.

Blair isn't Scottish either, he just pretends to be to get votes. Charles Clarke isn't, Jack Straw isn't, so that's three out of the top four. You may as well ask why there are no Northern Irish or Welsh senior ministers.

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You forgot 2 Jags Prescott, but thats an easy thing to do.:rolleyes:

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And Peter Mandelson and Alan Milburn. If you'd said an unpleasantly Thatcherite North-East Mafia was running the country you might have a point.

There are Scots of course - Brown, Reid and Darling spring to mind, It's not particularly surprising though, as we currently have an (allegedly) Labour government, which after all has a substantial Scottish MP base, and what's more one that goes back a few years to when the party, er, didn't do quite so well in the south. Seniority would suggest a few Scots might have been around long enough to rise to high office.

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How about all the cabbies in London being told they couldn't wave have their little st george cross car flags on display from their cabs during euro2004? :rolleyes:

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I think "Northern Irish" meant those from Northern Ireland.

Ahh yes, the car flags which the authorites considered 'dangerous' - yep, daft idea indeed but certainly nothing to do with the flags being English, it was because some beaurocrat decided they were potentially 'hazardous' to other road users... :rolleyes:

I understand that for many English people (present company excepted of course!) there is a huge catering pack of McCain's oven chips on their shoulders over their nationality, as if there is an underground campaign to allow "the taffs, paddies and scots" to celebrate their nations whilst stiffling England from doing the same.

Not so.

We don't get St David celebrated in any noteworthy way, I'm sure it's the same for Sts Andrew and Patrick. We don't get days off for them either.

The media is controlled by England (and to some extent Scotland). How many Welsh and N Ireland presenters do you know of?

We have nothing against the English being proud to be English - all the power to you for doing so, we should be free in our patriotic celebrations. However when you refer to England as Britain and vice versa and subsequently think nothing of it, then it creates friction. There are very clear differences between the two, so why is it done? Ignorance (towards the other home nations) or forgetfulness?

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You want to live in Glasgow - some <bleep> at Rangers matches fly the English flag and wear England strips.

I could go into why - but im not sure i understand myself. Something with a religious connection no doubt.

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Hugh Grant is cool though.

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Must be your avatar :D

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Can this thread be closed and moved to the staff forum? It really doesn't do this site justice. :bigsad:

I'm begining to wonder exactly when threads on subjects like this began to degrade into bun fights of the worst kind.

Can't put my finger on it now but I'm sure it'll come to me!

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I see no reason to do this at the moment.

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I can find a reference from 1999 here:

http://www.flagwire.com/display_article.asp?id=7242

which suggests it was to do with that year's England-Scotland games.

And there's a thread on Usenet* about it, which suggest that it's a long-standing rule that you can't fly *any* flag on them. Campaign against it if you like, but it's not exactly evidence of a mass attack on Englishness.

*Monster URL, so if you're interested go to Google Groups and search for

Black cab drivers in London cannot display flags etc in their cabs

There's no refutation of it, but the thread is full of barking mad Little Englanders. Quite entertaining.

Lots. To whit:

Eamonn Holmes is from Belfast (and since the population of N. Ireland is about 1/45th that of England we're entitled to 45 non-bumptious-Man-United-supporting eejits on our screens, although I must confess to liking his Radio 5 show)
Patrick Kielty
Gloria Hunniford's from Portadown, her (sadly late) daughter Caron Keating too
Roy Walker was born in Belfast
John Thomson, but that's an obscure one lifted from sad man scanning of IMDB.

Wales, well, obviously Sian Lloyd the weather woman (she's a bit past being a weather girl)
Ian Hislop was born in Swansea (but raised in Hong Kong)
Keith 'Vindaloo' Allen was also born in Swansea
Jeremy Bowen, the BBC chap, was born in Cardiff
Huw Edwards, other BBC chap, Bridgend
John Humphrys, BBC self-promoting hard-questioner, Cardiff
Julian Cope the musician
Peter Greenaway the film director
Ioan Gruffudd
....

I could go on (you may note I got up to 'G' in the alphabet), but at least three senior BBC broadcast journalists from Wales is a fair old representation of five million people, while Northern Ireland is positively bursting with talent, and Eamonn Holmes.

*Edit: Ooh, and I forgot Colwyn Bay's finest, Terry Jones, who's excellent Medieval Lives is worth a watch.

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Read my post again - in your haste to try and prove me wrong you omitted to notice where I asked for presenters, not musicians, actors etc.

And I also mentioned being Welsh, as opposed to those with a tenuous link. On the basis of what you've supplied I'm assuming you're one of those folk who believe Vinnie Jones is Welsh too?

Re: Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

Since when has being born in a country been a tenuous link?

Anyway, on to the list

All the irish people are or have been presenters..
Keith Alan has presented (amongst other things).
Huw Edwards presents the news.
Sian Lloyd presents the weather.
John Humphries presents the today show on Radio 4.

The others are an assortment of actors, musicians etc, I'll admit.

BTW, Vinnie jones was born in Watford so some us Londoners may consider him almost a Northerner... :D

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Keith Allan has presented what? I'll agree about John Humphries and Huw Edwards (even though when he first started out on the 6 o'clock news, loads of English people complained to the BBC that they didn't want a Welshman reading 'their' news - hello, the 6 o'Clock News is for the UK!!), and Sian Lloyd is a Meteorologist who also presents the weather (far less than she used to).

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Is this suggesting that here it's the men that wear the dresses? Perhaps at the weekends maybe, but always while wearing boots:D

What has the flag got to do with a religious march anyway?

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Sian Lloyd has been presenting the weather every night for the last few weeks, I don't remember after which news or on what channel, but it was definately her with her big box shaped head.

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First off, define Welsh. I'm saying (narrowly) Welsh born, which excludes someone like my mate Jim who despite growing up in the Rhondda, Abergavenny and Raglan and having a Welsh accent and being a massive Wales rugby fan, was born in Southampton, but includes my aunt Ceri who was born in Wales to a Welsh mother but English father but has lived in England for many years and has no trace of Welsh accent. We could switch to using 'qualifies for the Welsh football team' if you like, but that would just be ridiculous. Vinnie was born in Watford of course.

They are all presenters, in the literal sense, even though some are much more famous for other things. I'm including presenting obscure documentaries, weather forecasts and awards ceremonies, but that's still presenting. You didn't qualify your question by saying 'mainly known as presenters' so I didn't qualify my answer, except by limiting myself to people I'd actually heard of (which means there are almost certainly many more).

In any case, that list isn't exhaustive. You can have
Griff Rhys Jones of Cardiff (who presented Restoration),
Martyn Lewis of Swansea (newsreader),
the late Johnny Morris of Newport (presented Animal Magic),
Cliff Morgan of Trebanog, wherever that is, who's presented loads of things including Radio 4's sports programme when I was growing up.
Jonathan Pryce of Holywell, who's done lots of documentary voice-overs,
the late Sir Harry Secombe of Swansea (Songs of Praise)
Paul Whitehouse of Cardiff, who's done everything including present one of those Top Ten whatever programmes that C4 do instead of real television.

That's just the men, incidentally. Let's keep Sian Lloyd company with a few more Welsh women presenters: :sleep:

Charlotte Church (Llandaff) presented an episode of Have I Got News For You, so she's in
Dawn French (Holyhead) presented 'The Sitcom Story'
Carol Vorderman of Prestatyn (absolutely shed loads of stuff)
Anneka Rice of Cowbridge (again, lots)
the late Paula Yates of Colwyn Bay (Big Breakfast, if you needed telling)
Catherine Zeta-Jones has presented Oscars to people

Good heavens, it's an invasion. We must fight the over-representation of the Welsh on British TV.

Actually it's 20, of which three are deceased. Still, 17 out of a country of under 3 million people can't be bad. There's a strong case for saying that male BBC news presenters are rather too Welsh recently. The population of England being 15 times that of Wales, we have to find 60 top-rank English BBC news presenters in the last ten years to have equality, and since many are Scottish (James Naughtie) or Irish (Dermot Murnaghan) that's going to be tricky.

I'll sign off here, with a petulant Welsh voice coming out of my radio. John Humphrys.

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Aled Jones?

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Left him off - not sure if he's presented anything rather than being a guest or singer. By all means stick him on the list if he's done that.

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Songs of Praise, Classic FM early on Sunday mornings... yeah he's a presenter...

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Russ my mate, you're not going to win the presenters row ... so let's divert back to the topic, which is flags, seeing as you mentioned them :D

The reason why the Union Flag is waved by England fans is that for most of the last 300 years, and especially in the 19th century, the Union was pushed as our national identity over and above England, and England is the single largest part of the Union, England's capital is the capital of the Union, and the Parliament and Monarch of the United Kingdom are situated in our capital. Thus, we didn't feel nearly so culturally threatened as either Wales or Scotland and saw no need to cultivate our uniqueness in the same way that you did. Even today, Government buildings in England by law fly the Union flag on St George's Day. If they choose to fly St George's Cross, they have to fly it in addition and not instead of. In Scotland, St Andrew's Cross is flown on St Andrew's Day, instead of the Union flag, although in Wales you prefer that somewhat artificial banner with the dragon on it instead of your saint's cross, which is arguably the 'true' national flag of Wales (see attachment for an image of the St David Cross), and fly that on St David's Day instead of the Union flag.

So, it's not surprising that until very recently a lot of English people had difficulty separating the concepts of England and the United Kingdom. However, all that has begun to change. Euro 96 was when I first remember noticing a large number of English flags at an England game. More recently, devolution in Wales and Scotland has caused English people to consider what their own identity might be. I wouldn't go so far as to say we have a big bag of McCain's on our shoulders over it - I don't hear of any big campaign for English devolution. When you hear English people complaining about flags, it's usually with reference to this topic, that it is forbidden for fear of offending ethnic minorities, rather than Welsh or Scottish people. Although I know from experience that waving an England flag on a Welsh street after a 6-nations game can be a dangerous thing. Or actually, simply being English on a Welsh street ... :erm: :D

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Just being born being in Wales does not make you Welsh IMO. How Welsh does Ian Hislop consider himself? None at all. Christian Bale? None at all.

Nice list of 'presenters' however they are more commonly known by other professions, such as actors, singers etc.

If you could stick to presenters by treade, that would be nice. Not part-time presenters, not occasional presenters, not "ok-who-can-we-get-in-to-replace-Angus-Deaton-this-week" presenters.

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I think Aled Jones is proud Welsh though.

Re: Now the shoe is on the other foot....
 

He is, although I'm not sure what point you're trying to make...