ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Once again I point out that this is *NOT* a discussion on the merits of ID cards.

It has gone *WAY* beyond that now.

The state, in the form of the current Labour government, wants to fingerprint and track the entire population of the UK. They want to require everyone to notify them when they move house (or be fined or possibly jailed for not doing so). They want to create a computerised National Identity Register to keep tabs on the whole population claiming glibly that the costs and impact will be minimal despite the fact that virtually *NO* Government IT project has ever come in on time, on budget or working properly!

Whether or not you agree with the concepts of this, is there anyone who does not think that such plans should be given the strictest of scrutiny?

Yet the government is attempting to rush the Bill through Parliament such that the Committee Stage (ie where MPs from all parties can examine and discuss the contents of the proposed laws and question experts on their feasibility and validity) must be completed by January 27th.

Since MPs have only just come back from the Xmas recess, this means that this legislation that could have severe impacts on civil liberties has less than a fortnight of Parliamentry time to be examined.

That, however, is not all.

Once the Committee has reported, their findings will be discussed for no more than ONE HOUR in Parliament!

The third reading of the Bill will then be given only *one day* in Parliament.

The Bill will then be passed to the House of Lords, however since this legislation was first introduced in the Commons, the Government can use the Parliament Act to force the Act through no matter what objections the Lords may raise.

Now, as I have said, whether or not you agree with the idea of ID cards, I don't think many people will disagree that such a scheme should be given stringent scrutiny, yet the Labour Government are rushing it through with what can, at best, be described as "unseemly haste".

I would urge everyone who has a view on the subject, pro or anti to contact their MPs and raise their concerns about the way that this country is being railroaded into this scheme without being given a proper chance to object.

To contact your MPs use the following links:

List of MSPs - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm
List of AMs - http://www.wales.gov.uk/who/constit_e.htm
Fax Westminster MPs - http://www.faxyourmp.com/

Some other factors to consider:

* * * * *

Government papers released under the 30-year rule show that in the wake
of the IRA Birmingham pub bombings in 1974, the then Labour government
considered ID cards but rejected them because of cost and the impact
they would have on civil liberties.

The ID scheme proposed by the current government is far more expensive
(even in relative terms) and an even greater threat to civil liberties,
with its centralised database, unique National Identity Register Number,
and biometric data. Strange, then, that Charles Clarke thinks it "is an
enhancement, not an inhibition, of civil liberties."
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4139049.stm

* * * * *

SpyBlog has submitted a request, under the Freedom of Information Act
2000 (FOIA), for the Office of Government Commerce Gateway Reviews of
the Identity Cards Programme. Gateway Reviews are independent financial
reviews carried out by a team of experts at certain fixed key decision
points over the lifetime of a programme.

The government has been reluctant to release information relating to the
proposed ID card scheme, citing "reasons of commercial confidentiality".
Lord Falconer has already indicated that FOIA requests for the legal
guidance on the introduction of ID cards are likely to be declined.
See http://www.spy.org.uk/foia/archives/...teway_rev.html

* * * * *

The government continues to use the introduction of biometric passports
as a justification for ID cards. It claims we have to upgrade our
passports, due to International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO)
guidelines, so we may as well have an ID card while we're at it. However
biometric passports are now at the centre of much controversy.

The American Civil Liberties Union has produced a white paper that
highlights a number of privacy and security issues surrounding the ICAO
standard. Insertion of an unencrypted contactless chip into passports
means it will be possible to read the passport data from a distance of
20cm or more. The ACLU also warns that the ICAO standard is a move
towards a global identity card.

Meanwhile the European Union seems set to rethink its biometric passport
proposals after a technical report to the European Council stated that
"the solution envisaged by the draft regulation is not technically
feasible".

Back in the UK, an EU law specialist at the University of Essex says
that the government's proposed biometric passport system could conflict
with the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) as well as data
protection legislation.

Set against this comes news of the costly US-VISIT programme that
biometrically scans visitors at seaports, airports and border controls
in the United States. The programme has cost 700 million dollars so far.
The LA Times reports that last year 16.9 million foreign visitors were
checked through the system, 372 of whom were arrested or denied entry.
Of the 372 none was linked to terrorism.

* * * * *

The above quotes come from the NO2ID Supporters Newsletter No.12

See http://www.no2id.net/ for more information.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Well said.

If you've got a Conservative MP, incidentally, ask them why they aren't standing up for the historic traditions of their party and supporting freedom of the individual against an overmighty state using tax revenue to remove people's liberty, which doesn't sound much like Conservative policy to me.

It's probably too much to ask that they support democracy to the extent of refusing to go along with the farce of rubber stamping such poor and counterproductive legislation, but you might raise a spark of conscience by pointing out their betrayal of their party's history.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Second post, but this is astonishing - the list of anti-ID card MPs on no2id's site has such fellow travellers as Peter Lilley and Dennis Skinner. About as far apart as you can get, politically. Winston S. Churchill would be right at the top of that list too, of course.

Mine (Vince Cable*) isn't on there - I'll be writing him a note. He did vote against it of course, all 55 LD MPs did, and has been pretty vociferous. Just one reason they're getting my vote (again).

http://www.vincecable.prai.co.uk/cab...s.php?story=96

* "If the police need more money, then it should be the £3bn ID card scheme that is cut"

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

This is a message that someone else posted in another forum in response to my above messages which I also posted there:

* * * * *

Some other links that people may like to look at.

They are Pdf files giving details of the proposed legislation, which may startle people who think this is all a fuss about nothing very much.

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....ng-commons.pdf

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....key-points.PDF

I'll quote a few passages below.

Fines for not updating - Individuals are required to notify the SoS (Secretary of State) of any changes in their details held on the register. Failure to do so will result in a fine of up to £1,000. This is particularly relevant for those who move house frequently.

Charges - The SoS can, by regulation, specify fees to be charged for: registration; modification; issue of cards; disclosure applications; and so on. This means there will be considerable ongoing costs for all of us. These ongoing charges are listed by the Home Office as one of the main ways of funding the ID scheme.

Those who need to update their details regularly, e.g. tenants changing address, will need to pay each time for their information to be updated.

If an ID card is issued to an individual and it contains inaccurate information, there is an obligation to notify the SoS of this error and pay a fee for the Register to be updated. The bill does not allow for this fee to be waived if the error is not the individual's fault - so you may need to pay for a civil servant's error.

Damaged/lost/stolen cards - failure to notify the SoS that your card has been damaged/lost/stolen may be deemed a criminal offence. A 'damaged' card means one where, for example, the reader doesn't work. Even if unaware that the card is damaged, an individual will still be committing an offence if he 'has reason to suspect' that it may be.

* * * * *

Still think ID cards aren't going to be a problem for you...?

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

I will never be having one, even if it does get through.

I'd be prepared to go to Jail.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

The more people who complain to their MPs the more chance there is that this whole silly business will die a death before we lose our rights or a lot (more) money is wasted.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

The beggars are ahead of you - apparently the raft of new offences around not registering are civil offences and punishments are fines, hence no martyr pensioners going to jail on the news. Just a stinging fine and if you do go to jail it's because you haven't forked out the fine, rather than in defence of freedom.

I'll check this with the old man, but apparently legal aid isn't available for civil cases in the same way as it is for criminal cases.

Of course you can object in writing to the penalty, but then, humorously, the Secretary of State can put the fine up to serve you right for questioning your masters.

Quite apart from what Graham's pointed out - the ongoing tax on us all for having our civil liberties violated for no apparent reason.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Lets hope so many people refuse to pay their fine then, what they gonna do then? Where they going to fit a couple of million people (assuming a good pecentage of the nation is totally against ID Cards) British jails are said to be well over crowded.

I can just imagine sitting in a cell and my cellmate introduces himself and says, I robbed a bank, what you in for?

I reply, I didn't want an ID Card. :rolleyes:

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

It's a step in the dark, and for an uncertain improvement in security (if any), it means a definite loss in privacy, and a certain cost of uncertain magnitude, for whatever fee they intend extorting with menaces, the whole project is very likely to follow the same lack of schedule and cost control as any other!

Forget the voluntary phase, to even hope to deliver on supposed promises, it would have to be compulsory, and even then, the same people who would posses an illegal firearm, smuggle drugs etc. are hardly likely to worry about not having an ID card, or will be very pleased to have a fraudulently obtained one, since it would seem that it will be trusted without question.

I'd say we will be less safe, if we replace individual judgement with "foolproof but fallible" technology.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Contrary to the many, in principle I have no objection to the basic concept of an ID card. If it replaces and consolidates the many bits of information that government already has on me (National Insurance, Driver Licence, Passport, etc) it will make my life easier than trying to find numerous documents. It could also assist in removing doubt about the wrong gooder's identity. As far as passports go, one inevitably wonders how compatible any system intorduced here will be with other countries?

One often has to ask whether it is the law abiding who have anything to fear from these cards, or the non law breakers. Government agencies already have so many means of getting information on us that I doubt ID cards would make that much difference. If anything they might reduce some of the beurocratic costs to such agencies when they are determined to collect such data. No dount safeguards will be provided to prevent misuse, just as the data that can be collected now must have some protection.

To me there are three main issues:
1) Will ID cards be secure. Sooner or later someone will work out how to forge them which will negate the major benefits society might gain from them.

2) Will this effectively amount to more taxation on us, by virtue of costs to get the card, update it, etc.

3) Would the card falling into the wrong hands aid identity theft.

Undoubtedly ID cards are a serious issue. A full and frank parliamentary debate, to include the opportunty of Parliament to be properly lobbied is essential. It would be a major change in our lifestyle, and as a minimum should have been something in a party manifesto considered at a general election.

As ever this government will impose it's will on the country with no real consideration for the silent majority.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

That silent majority would be the "many" to whose views yours are contrary?!

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

I'm still waiting for this new brainless home secretary's proposed legislation for ID cards in Northern Ireland, under the Good Friday Agreement, Northern Irish citizens are entitled to choose whether they are "British" or "Irish", so unless the republic bring in a similar scheme there will be no real way of enforcing it.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Are these ID cards for all ages? :erm:

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

16 and over.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Oh great :(

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

16 and over (but yours would come with a free bag of sweets and a Panda Pop ;) :p: )

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Tory Party set to withdraw ID scheme support.

From the The Register:-

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Prats. If the scheme doesn't fit your 'five tests', vote against it!

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Ah, at last, a cell mate!

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

I am quite young looking for my age. So i keep getting stopped at cinemas and so on for ID (EVEN FOR A 15!!) and police sometimes ask why i am not at school.

I already have a french ID card, but a english one would help me as a good way of having indenify. I can even use it as my passport around europe.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

It's going to get quite crowded in there :)

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

New World Order here we come, and next we will have ID chips, Hitler would be rubbing his hands in glee with todays technology, and some think the BNP are facist pigs :O
Bet this was a nicely hidden, hidden agenda.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Neither will I, if a National ID Card wasnt introduced to curb republican and loyalist terror in Northern Ireland, do the Labour Party Brown Shirts really think this will stop Islamic terrorists?

Will it buggery.

If the government do push this legislation through, I'll be more than happy to burn whatever documents come through my door. I will not ever, under any circumstanes carry a National ID Card, no matter what it costs me.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Translation: We said we'd support it so we could look good in the Law and Order debate, but ring-fenced our support with caveats and tests so we could back out when it suited us and claim that *we* could do it better... :rolleyes:

PS And our next pre-election stunt will be along shortly

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Just a thought but if your an Islamist would you have to carry one anyway, after all such things I believe could and would probably be against their religion

The id card or id chip in their religion is known as the mark of satan

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Well if that works, we as a nation could use the same excuse as any kind of biometrics and id chips would be a sign of the number of the beast to Christianity too...... and the religion of this country still is Church of England right ?

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Mark of Blunkett perhaps. If that's true, which I doubt, then you'd never see a Muslim (wtf is an 'Islamist') with a computer or a mobile phone, and there are a good number working in the IT industry whose jobs would be made rather difficult.

Of course there are several ways to get round the need to carry one - be rich (to pay the fines every so often) or be Irish (not that any terrorists are likely to come from there of course). Identity theft from a sub-16 year old might work too.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4252919.stm


Tory fools. If only they'd voted no instead of abstaining.


Now the only hope for stopping this illiberal, ill-conceived, & vastly expensive nonsense rests with the Lords... :erm:

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Or our right of peaceful civil disobedience. Namely refusing to return any forms sent out to us, and refusing to pay for the card if it is forced on us.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

I don't mind the idea of id cards in principle, I've seen the benifits to the individuals in other countries, but this goverment is too bloody useless to be able to do it properly!
I can expect it to cost 3 maybe 4 times the initial claim, and be 10 years late and then still not work, have loads of security holes and be easily bypassed by criminals.

It also looks like it could cause our MI5 and MI6 agents issues too if they get caught using false ID cards! :D

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

[QUOTE=Matt D]Oh gods, I missed that because of all the Charles and Camilla BS... :rolleyes:

Still "Tony Blair believes Mr Howard has committed an "enormous strategic blunder" which paves the way for Tory peers to join forces with Liberal Democrats in the Lords to kill the bill."

We can only hope!

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Well if you aren't worried you should be. USA has already started implanting chips into patiens and certain security staff.

http://www.rense.com/general58/plant.htm

http://www.survivalforum.com/modules...print&sid=1211


Sian

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

An amusing, but cautionary tale...

http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

:eek: Eek!

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

I suppose they haven't heard of the term "far-fetched", but it is done by the ACLU, so that figures...

As George Carlin said, in comedy, something has to be way out of proportion, that gives you the joke.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Exactly the point, and Spitting Image used grotesque parody to make sharp political points for a decade. Of course it's very, very unlikely that Domino's will have access to that kind of data any time soon, if ever, but the dangers of a single point of access for all data held on an individual are clear.

The State exists to ensure the conditions are right for a free and fair society to flourish, and to do so with the absolute minimum of intervention. It serves me, not vice versa.

Re: ID Cards in Parliament.
 

Quite, Chris.

Pizza Hut know to come to the side door of the house when we ring them up. That's enough information on me, thanks.

One point - that spoof slightly blurs the line between private companies like pizza parlours, which can keep records on you for commercial reasons as long as they follow the DPA, and state institutions which are bound by the Human Rights Act (and long may it reign) which, as we've seen, can act as a brake on their more totalitarian ambitions.

Of course, the line between private and public is already blurred, but interestingly, private companies which are acting as an agent of the state (e.g. a PFI contractor running a hospital) *are* bound by the HRA, as they're considered part of the State, and quite right too.

Individuals have rights and corresponding duties - the State must have too.