[Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Interesting article in The Guardian today (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...387377,00.html) suggests a merged NTL/Telewest may be forced to open up its cable networks to rival companies wishing to offer broadband etc. I quote: "Rivals of NTL and Telewest are pushing for conditions to be attached to any merger of the two businesses that would force the cable companies to open their network to other telecoms operators.

With both companies having completed their financial restructurings, investment bankers expect them to merge this year. While refusing to comment directly on the possibility of creating a single British cable television operator, executives from both companies are mindful of the potential benefits of a deal.

There is a growing desire among telecoms companies for NTL and Telewest, whose fibre-optic cables reach more than 13 million UK homes, to open up their networks so other companies can provide services such as broadband internet access"

This would be a welcome move methinks!

Andy

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

I thought the NTL network was already used by AOL?

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

it is :)

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

NTL has come to an arrangement with AOL that allows AOL to re-brand and re-sell some NTL bandwidth for broadband internet. What is being discussed here is the possibility of fully opening the cable network to third parties in the way that BT's network is, so you can take services from a different phone company, for example.

Personally I see no reason why NTL should do this. BT is sitting on a natonwide network that was formerly State owned (i.e., built with our taxes), so it's too damn right they should not be able to abuse the monopoly position we gave them by denying us access to other services via that network. NTL and Telewest networks, on the other hand, are the product of private investment and those who put up the money for it should be allowed to reap the benefits of their investment (assuming their shares are still worth anything, thanks to that rather ill-advised bout of rapid expansion both cablecos went on in the late 90s).

I would have liked to have had a choice of provider down my NTL phone line, of course, but I fully accept the reasons why that would not be fair!

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

true. the very next paragraph of that Guardian story reads: "AOL, the internet service provider (ISP), has a deal with both companies to use their lines for narrowband internet access but so far has only managed to secure a deal for broadband access with NTL. In contrast, there are several hundred ISPs using BT's lines, which reach all the country's 25 million households, to provide broadband access."

What excites me about this as an NTL customer is that wider access to the NTL/Telewest networks should see the disappearance of that annoying "BT Line Required" every time I read an enticing looking broadband ad. Making switching provider easier anbd increasing competition might also help drive up service standards so, for example, a reliable email service is regarded as a central feature not a fringe benefit of a broadband package.

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

Chris, with respect I disagree. The origins of a monopoly are largely an irrelevance and many would argue that taxpayers were shortchanged by the BT privatisation anyway. If a hugely dominant player is allowed to emerge and operate untethered, customers, who ultimately pay those shareholder dividends, will suffer. By giving access to the network - for which a merged NTL/Telewest would no doubt reap access fees - there will be greater choice and the possibility of both better value and service. That may include, for example, the dropping of the requirement to take an NTL phone line as part of the package!

Andy

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

But you still wouldn't be able to get ADSL if you were not going to use a BT line. ADSL is dependent upon having POTS (plain old telephone service) not cable.

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

Gareth, sorry I don't really understand. Would I want/need ADSL if I can get broadband cable through a choicxe of providers using the NTL/Telewest or are you saying that even if NTL/Telewest opened up its networks, Wanadoo, BlueYonder, BoltBlue etc couldn't offer broadband services to me through it?

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

I don't think the origins of BT's position are in any way irrelevant. I completely agree that taxpayers were shortchanged by the privatisation (which is why Brown tried to claw some of it back shortly after Labour won power in 1997 - remember the one-off 'Windfall Tax' on privatised utilities?), but this only serves to illustrate my point. Taxpayers were shortchanged, because it was taxpayers that built the BT network. Now BT owns the network that we built, it is fair and equitable that we should force BT, by means of statute and regulation, to give us some say over how we use the network - namely by allowing us to use a BT line to access third party telephone and data services.

NTL, on the other hand, is a completely different proposition. For a start it is not a monopoly, and can never be. It may become the only cable TV company, but it is not a monopoly TV provider as it already plays second fiddle to Sky and will face increasing competition from Freeview/Top-Up TV. It may be the second-biggest fixed-line telephone network in the country, but it plays second fiddle to BT there, and let's not forget the small but growing number of people who have no fixed line at all. They therefore also face competition from the mobile companies.

Yes, customers suffer when a hugely dominant player develops, but NTL does not fit this description and it never will. If you don't like their TV service, get Sky. If you don't like their telephone service, get a BT line (whose rental is a mere £1 a month more expensive) and then take your pick of service providers. Or ditch fixed-line altogether and use a mobile. Your customer choice is in no way compromised by the perfectly fair and reasonable desire of a private company to protect its investment and earn a return on it.

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

At the moment I don't think NTL's network could take anymore third party vendors on their network, get the network in order for NTL direct customers first then open it up.

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

You referred earlier to the restriction "BT line required". ADSL providers make this restriction because they need a copper-only-all-the-way-to-the-exchange telephone line on which to piggy-back the ADSL broadband. NTL telephone lines do not have copper all the way to the exchange: they are multiplexed onto fibre in a street cabinet, so NTL telephone lines cannot support ADSL broadband. So an ADSL broadband ISP cannot provide service over NTL telephone lines even if the NTL telephone network was opened up to competition. Alternate cable broadband suppliers might be interested in using NTL's cable-broadband infrastructure to deliver services, rather like AOL does now, but I doubt that you will see many of the present ADSL specialist ISPs wanting to do that. So you are likely to see the stipulation "BT line required" for some time to come.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Oh, hang on, I think I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about the enticing broadband ads you see at the moment, ie from ADSL providers, but still sticking with cable as the underlying technology. Sorry, my bad.

Re: Merged NTL/Telewest To Open Networks To Rivals?
 

Chris, I see your logic but without doubt a merged NTL/Telewest will be a major market force that could operate to the detriment of competition. It is only right that it be tightly regulated and that smaller players are allowed access, for a fee, to encourage competition. Tesco has achieved its dominant market position through investment, but many would argue that this is now to the detriment of the market. They're now expanding into the convenience sector and driving other businesses out (with dubious business tactics which their clout - turnover equivalent to the world's 74th largest economy - enables) and staff and suppliers are among those now suffering, with customers actually facing less choice as they progress. That is the danger that poor regulation (the Govt bottled out of proper intervention) of any business, regardless of origin, presents.

And customer choice is restricted if rival broadband operators can only provide services via the BT network, not least because this encourages bundling of services. If I wasn't bundled with NTL I would have ditched them a while ago because untangling the bundle is a hassle. They know this, that's why they do it.

Incidentally Freeserve (as was) was supposed to have agreed an access agreement with NTL in 2002 - anyone any idea what happened there? And if they have an agreement with AOL and had planned to with Freeserve, presumably this idea doesn't frighten them too much anyway (the potential stumbling block no doubt being the level of access fees).

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

There are two ways that an ISP can supply ADSL, either using a BT wholesale service or by Local Loop Unbundling. On cable it is rather different I would presume as the technologies are so different and the only method for other ISPs to use NTL cable is the same way that AOL do it.

However, would it be possible for other ISPs to use LLU at nodal cabinet sites on cable using their own fibre to connect to their own infrastructure? Could this method enable other ISPs to supply VDSL using the NTL last mile twisted copper pair?

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

NTL/Telewest may not be a monopoly but it would be part of a duopoly which could be said by some to be working against the public interest.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

:clap: Hear, Hear. And sigfnificantly more concise than my posts!

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Gareth, I was talking about the existing ads and despite posts from your good self and others I still don't really understand. To be fair, I am a bit thick. I can see we have two technologies s at work but if AOL can use NTL's network, and Freeserve planned to, presumably this is not insurmountable - and why rival companies want to gain access as reported in that Guardian article.

Yours,

Confused of Bury.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Basically, the way it works is that the ISP that wants to add users to the NTL network buys bandwidth on that network I suspect it works in a similar way to BT's standard ADSL product. With that, ISPs buy access for so many users. They then add their own costs, plus a profit marging to that cost and re-sell that bandwidth to the user.

AOL has as far as I understand, bought bandwidth on NTL's network. Freeswerve (or wanado as they are now) tried to, but the deal fell through for some reason.

NTL are clearly quite happy for other ISPs to use their bandwidth (as happens with AOL). Maybe most ISPs are happy dealing purely with BT, and moving toward LLU (installing their own equipment in Exchanges). Maybe BT has written something into their contracts with ADSL ISPs that the ISPs will not deal with any other comms company? If that were the case, few ISPs would be large enough to challenge BT.


The truth is that we don't know.

As it happens, I agree with Chris T. BT was a monopoly created with taxpayer's money. Their network was built with our money. I'll admit a lot of the "back end" stuff in the network (exchanges, trunk links etc) has been upgraded with private money, but most of the actual copper wiring into people's homes and business was done with taxpayer's money.

BT are still in a dominant position today. It's right that the government forces them to open their network (as people will tell you, they need to be forced).

NTL & Telewest are different. Yes, they are huge. However, their networks always were and still are privately funded. It should be up to them what they do with them.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

It's done on the cable networks in the US
http://www.timewarnercable.com/centr...t/default.html
RoadRunner (own brand)
Earthlink and LocalNet

Also to whet your appetites have a look at this section.
http://www.timewarnercable.com/centr...cable/dvr.html

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

I strongly disagree. If the world was left to market forces we'd be up the swannee; that's why Governments need to reign in market 'superpowers' and prevent them abusing their market position. If NTL and Telewest want to merge, opening their combined network to rivals might well be the price they have to, and should, pay. I'm sure Morrisson's would have loved to have kept all (or at least many) of the stores they acquired when they bought Safeway but the Competition Commission decided this would give them too much market power (alebeit in certain towns/regions). The same applies to NTl-Telewest

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

there will be a monopoly in places where ADSL isnt possible due to the distance from the exchange.

there will also be a monopoly in places where users need higher speeds but their ADSL line will only allow 512. it may be a necessity in the future to have a top speed line in order to enjoy the internet properly - in this case NTL/TW would have a monopoly on the ability to provide this if/where ADSL cant.

I cant see any of this working against the public interest though unless NTL/TW offer better deals to people who are in areas where ADSL can complete and offer crap deals where they know ADSL cant compete.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

But NTL or TW already have a monopoly on cable to the home in those towns / regions. The country is not big enough to support two cable operators and as a result there is a massive duplication in cost base, this hinders cable development (less money) and marketing (more difficult to target).

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

The country may not be big enough to support two or more cable companies who are offering both infrastructure and services but opening up the network to competition can only spur what to my mind has been a fairly complacent company (NTL - can't vouch for TW's track record). NTL would still have a monopoly on infrastructure but access to that infrastructure could be fairly regulated, so NTL secure access revenues, to the benefit of consumers. The fact that NTL (or TW, depending on where you live) has a monopoly already is, for me, a key part of the problem. For example, it is not currently easy to switch service providers without say, reinstalling a BT line. If the NTL network was open to competition, I could switch in a trice which might mean they decide to look after me better, knowing they haven't got the hassle factor as a comfort zone.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

The difference here is, and I apologise if it has already been pointed out. But BT's Network - up until the point of privitisation was paid for by you and me (tax payer). NTL/TW have had to pay for their own network - hence the massive debt. BT were given a monoploy - therefore it is just that they should open up their network. This whole issue, with the merger of NTL and TW will sort itself out with NTL/TW in competition with BT to "sell" their networks to 3rd party carriers. Prices will come down for all.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

regardless of how you think ntl is a kind of monopoly, sky/bt isnt an option for some people and that leaves them with exactly ??? 1 choice for phone/tv and 2 for internet (aol/ntl).

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

and if cable is not available in an area how many choices does that leave people for receiving sports and movie channels? sky... or.... sky...

oh and please name an area where bt phone lines aren't available because i am sure there aren't many

i am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Well, a large chunk of the population have access to Freeview. Also, bear in mind that Sky covers the whole country. The only people who cannot receive it are those with line-of-sight problems. NTL does not cover the whole country, and hasn't cabled large chunks of the areas it does cover.

I believe it is a legal requirement that BT makes a line available to any house that requests it (no matter what problems this will cause).

BT are gradually making ADSL available to most of the country.

Also, if they are willing to pay (through the noise admittedly), most people can get access to Satellite Broadband.

So, most people have access to at least 3 choices in each category (more with all
the ADSL providers).

So, NTL are hardly a monopoly. Not even a Duopoly..

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

yeah sorry phone and tv I am wrong but if you want broadband and cant have adsl for whatever reason what is your choice of competitors?

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

The answer is Hull, the USO is Kingston Comms there.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media_office...ws/nr_20050110

At some point in the future OFCOM is likely to make ADSL a USO item, I'm sure dial up internet was not on the original list.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

I disagree with them being FORCED to open their network to competitors. I mean the cable network was built at a cost which was incured by Nynex, etc etc etc. It was not handed to them on a plate like the BT network was when it was privatised.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Do you think that the BT network being opened up was a good thing?

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

I don't think anyone would dispute that it was. We are saying that BT's network was largely funded by the public, so, should be opened up to competitors. NTL's network was entirely funded privately so they should be allowed to do what they want with it.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Yes, but that is irrelevant.

BT enjoyed making billions throughout the 80's and early 90's on the the back of inheriting a free network and through having no competition whatsoever (except Mercury)

If Ofcom want ntl/ TW to open up their networks then Ofcom can give several billion pounds to each company to wipe out the massive debt they incurred because of building them.

That would be fair.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

I wouldn't disagree, I just wondered whether the poster felt that consumers benefitted from the opening of the BT network.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Of course I feel the consumers benefit from BTs networking being opened and im not saying the consumers would not benefit if the cable network was opened up. The fact is though it is completely unfair to expect cable network to open up.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

should the cable networks be forced by official regulation to offer wholesale products to ISP's similar to BT's IPstream at a regulated wholesale price?

ie. similar to what NTL currently do with AOL but forced by regulation to be available as a wholesale product to ISPs.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Well it could prove more profitable if NTL only handled the wholesale side, no customer support to consumers for a start. Perhaps NTL could charge a sort of signup fee to isp's that would help offset the cost of building the network, but I strongly believe consumer's interests should always come first.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Hmmmm, so to get this straight ntl are going to provide their network for other ISP's to provide service over. the only flaw to making money this way instead of having their own direct custmers is announcing they are getting rid of network technicians this week instead of customer support people.

Now would not be the right time to sell services to a third party on an already poorly maintained HFC network, and one that can only get worse as they make redundant some of the understaffed people who are supposed to be keeping it in tip top condition! :rolleyes:

PS: My sarcasm is directed at ntl management, not you Chrysalis.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

IMO simple answer no.
____________

I too thick the consumer's interests are important but you have to look at it from ntls point of view.

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

If ntl/tw are made to share there network that they have paid for it will be like you staying in 1 hotel and paying a cheaper 1 the money eg

staying in the hilton and paying travel lodge.

If you all know what I mean.

Its all crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzy

Re: [Merged] NTL/TW To Open Networks?
 

Not if ownership creates an overly dominant position which acts against consumer interest. This is why industries are regulated, although not terribly effectively in some cases. If they're not then those with the deepest pockets, not necessarily the greatest products, service or marketing nous, will almost inevitably succeed.

NTL can choose not to merge with Telewest and not open up its network, or it can merge with Telewest, enjoy the benefits that brings but may need then, if reports are to be believed, be made to concede access to other providers (for which they will make charge) as a condition of the deal. Their choice.