Gatsos said to be inaccurate...
 

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Notice no one is interested in hearing his case, he should sell it to a popular newspaper....then it would get out.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

still should be interesting to see what the outcome is ;) :tu:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

I know with handheld devices, if you are caught you legally entitled to check the calibration schedule of the device. If it wasn't calibrated that morning, it can be thrown out of court. Sadly this can't be done at the road but only in court, but calibration is something not often done and can get lets of cases thrown out.

I wonder though, who ever calibrates Gatso, and how often?

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Wow! This could have massive implications! :shocked:


:tu: :D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Aye massive implications.


Right okay then recheck it alongside all the police and anti speeding peoples tickets...make sure they was still done for speeding..:D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Don't get your hopes up too much.
A few years ago, one of my friends was sent a summons for doing 65mph in a 30 limit. He was driving a double decker bus with a top speed of 40mph but the courts/police/solicitors were not interested in getting things checked out.
In the end the case was quietly dropped but he was still £300 out of pocket in barrister fees.

The courts just want to process the fines quickly to get them out of the way so that they can make lots of money.

If it does happen that the brown stuff hits the rotating object it will be interesting to see the BS that will emanate from the police/government/courts in justifying the use of faulty equipment.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Lets hope this means the end of the gatso.... :redcard:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Hmmmm.....a somewhat biased story on that website. The first rule of journalism is a right of reply. It would appear that no-one from the CPS, the local Police Service or Gatsometer was asked by the story's writer for an on-the-record response.

However, taking the story at face value - the person going to court says that the Gatsos he 'tested' were flashing "typically" 630 ms apart. I assume by the use of the word that not all were flashing at the same amount. It doesn't say how he measured this either, although I am sure the judge will ask him!

So on the basis of 25% being the absolute maxiumum, and his charge being driving at 41 mph, the minimum speed he was doing was 33 mph in a 30 zone. Not exactly serious, but then we also don't know the time of day, conditions, etc., but it's still technically enough for three extra points on his license.

Whilst it might raise some interesting points about the final prints of the photos, the actual photograph is triggered by a separate laser mechanism which would be set to a specific speed (such as 33 mph or above) and would only fire the camera and flashes if the driver was exceeding the speed limit in the first place.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Sadly, I doubt it, whatever the outcome. It'll be interesting to hear the outcome though.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Often wondered and thinking of doing this...make a car...which looks like a Gatso, and numberplate it GATS0, and get booked.


Would love to see there faces at that image. :D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

It will be interesting.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

The implications of this are ENORMOUS...so big in fact that there is NO way he will succeed. It will be decided "for the greater good" that he will fail. You just watch.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Then lets all kick a stink while there guard is down.


May be interesting to see if any car magazine/newspaper people are interested. :D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Interesting but I'm still in favour of Gatsos considering the alternative ie speed bumps.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

I don't know about the accuracy of Gatsos, but before you all assume he is right, bear in mind that the guy who did the research is under threat of a speeding conviction. Therefore, he was probably looking for ways to prove himself innocent. It's also worth bearing in mind the timer he used may have been incorrectly calibrated.

Also, how many Gatsos did he drive past? If he drove past 10 and was flashed by 8 of them, he could conclude 80% are wrong. However, he could drive past another 90, not get caught and suddenly that 80% would become 8%

Interestingly, according to the cornwall police site I link to below, his timings are well within the limits for the camera. The delay between photos is typically anywhere between 500ms and 700ms.

Also, I found an interesting article on how Gatsos work at http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/...tech/gatso.htm OK, I know it's the police, but it does match up with what I read on another site (ukspeedcameras.com) which was selling detectors..

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

All a Gatso does is take a photo. It doesn't stop you from speeding, it's your own desire to not end up with points on your license which controls that.

I'd call it the lesser of 2 evils but speed bumps get my vote, particularly attractive is the prospect of them causing boy racers to slow down lest they mangle the underside of their lowered vehicles.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Ask the Highway Maintenance engineers round here who are constantly having to fill in the holes in the roads left after idiots have gone over speed bumps too fast and grounded out on the other side... :dozey:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

He isn't the only person questioning the accurcy of speed cameras:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...?oneclick=true

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=vic...4/s1121730.htm

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

If you drove a large vehicle for a living (pcv/lgv) you would not say that.
The constant shock from going over these is causing major back problems for a large number of drivers.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

This might go someway to explain why I've been flashed 4 times* over the last year going into Colchester. there are 2 cameras and I'm a good by so its 30 mph as soon as I get into the zone (and not just where the cameras are) but even then I've been flashed 4 times (one time I was only doing 25 according to my Speedo).

If what this guy says is true then there is a major issues because the prosecution is based on the assumption that the 2 photos were taken 500 ms apart. If this is not the case then the cameras at the very least need recalibrating. If the police are being good about this then they should look at the speeding convictions from that camera and refund those that are likely to be due to duff calibration.**

oh and the reason that there is no real response from the police etc. is because they were already approached by the gent in question and he got no response. I also suspect that as a policy, the police et al. will not comment on upcoming cases.

Scarlett.

* Before anyone asks, I still have a clean license no points whatsoever.
** On the other hand, this is the governments big 'we are doing something good' policy so _that's_ likely to happen!.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

It appears Gatso's are the Judge Dredd of speed enforcement - fully automated policing, jury, and executioner all in one.


I disagree - if a camera is found to be giving false evidence then ALL tickets should be refunded and points cancelled from the day the camera was installed and the camera should be replaced or removed.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

There is, of course, nothing to stop hundreds of like-minded people going out with calibrated devices and measuring their local cameras. The problem with a cover-up in this case is that you can't cover up the camera (well, you can, I suppose, but it rather defeats the object). I'm sure Escapee would know how to build a 1/100th second optical timing device.

Speed bumps I hate - they damage cars let alone spines and cause noise nuisance to people living next to them. Narrower roads or chicanes or raised areas that you can drive over perfectly well at 30mph but are uncomfortable faster than that have the same effect of making it easy for you to keep to the limit.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

It is actually quite easy to calibrate with an oscilloscope that can trigger reliably on TV Line syncs, It could also be done with a counter timer locked to Droitwich 198KHz off air standard.

I would personally use x amount of 64uS TV lines from a demodulated off air anaologue TV transmitter to calibrate a timer to use for comparison. This would be more than accurate enough, it would then be a case of using the gatso flash to trip a monosatble set for the 500ms. This could compare the monosatble with the gatso falsh used to trigger it.

He is an engineer, so it's likely he also has access to this sort of equipment.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Yeah....... that's just what I was going to say.... :)

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

My point was that I don't think he set out to test IF Gatso's are accurate. I think he set out to prove they weren't. I do realise he probably had access to equipment that could have been used to calibrate his timer (wether he did or not is another matter).

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

We have just been discussing this one in work this morning, one of the guys here suggested a remote flasher used for photography could probably be used to trigger a pulse to be read on the oscilloscope. It wouldn't matter about the delay it took for the trigger, because it would be the same for both flashes, the only point to be sure about would be the recovery time between triggers.

I think this system could be set up and calibrated using a counter timer locked to the national off-air frequency standard 198KHz. It would be spot on accurate and there are many engineers in a similar position to myself who would have access to the equipment. I see no reason why his measuring method couldn't be as accurate as the company who manufacture it.
If it's locked to the off-air reference when in use, there could be no arguments about it's acuracy as its a national tracable NCAS standard.

very interesting :D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

At last a post from you which I feel makes sense. The council around here have made these modifications to some of the roads here and they certainly seem to have some affect but do not unfortunately do much to slow down the boy racers who usually seem to have small enough cars to comfortably go through them at speed.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

But the point is that he was still speeding, so of course he will not succeed.

I'm in favour of those speed sensitive signs that light up if you're going too fast either in 30 zones or at accident black spots. They have been shown to be more effective at reducing speed and accidents.

Everyone slips over the speed limit from time to time, these signs are a gentle reality check that most people will respond to.

This is a separate issue to the guy who's trying it on. You're saying that the trigger is set too low or inaccurate. He's saying that the gap between photos is too long, which would exaggerate the offender's speed on the pictures.

Of course it might well be your speedo that's wrong, but you should let your local police service know that you have a concern about a specific camera.

I've heard that some people are using these to 'blind' Gatsos. As an part-time photographer I have a couple of these little units for fill-in flash, the sense when your main flashgun fires. Apparently some people are using them in the back window of their cars so that when the Gatso flashes them, this gizmo flashes back.

I don't know if it works, I'd be surprised given the distance, but I would say that anyone doing so needs beating - I wouldn't want to be driving behind a car that was setting off flashes in my face.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

My bad - I didn't explain myself. If he was indeed speeding (and it appears he was) then yes he will be appropriately punished, and a good thing too. What I feel he will not succeed in however is having a review of the way Gatso machines work. This would have huge implications and as that site suggests, everyone who has been caught by one in the past could have their case reviewed and there just isn't enough time or manpower available to make that worthwhile, certainly not for a subject as speeding.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

A likely outcome will be to "modernise" the speed cameras with new models. As it likely would be cheaper to just replace them all with new models, then to payout and deal with thousands of incoming letters over past speeding tickets.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Yes they are using them for that reason, I know someone who has designed one doing exactly that. He showed me a photo of the back of a car and the numberplate could not be read because the flash was located just above the numberplate, and had reacted quick enough to the flash from a normal camera flash.

I have played about with photo detectors, to detect the mobile speed cameras. It's just for a bit of fun to see how far away I could detect them, they have a mobile unit placed on a dual carraigeway on my way to work quite often. I can honestly say I am never above the 70MPh speed limit as I tend to doodle along about 65 these days, I was just playing around to see how effective I could be. I have been unable to any lasers of a suitable wavelength as yet at a reasonable cost to have some further fun with though!

(Note these would not be dangerous to other drivers as they would be unseen by the naked eye, but the mobile speed unit would not be happy)

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

ok im confused. The photos have nothing to do with the device detecting your speed. Agreed if the timing of the flashes was incorrect then the visual evidence would be wrong. However its the radar within the device that detects the speed at which the vehicle is travelling.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

I think it's because the radar detects the speed of the vehicle and triggers the flash devices to provide the photographic evidence, because the flashes are longer apart in duration that they should be. It shows the offender to appear to of travelled further in a set time than they actually have. ie: because the set time between the flashes are wrong.

If this error is correct it does have a massive implication, and really shows the police up to be very amateurish!

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

why not just do away with them altogether,cheaper still.after all everybody knows these devices are to raise income for the police and the government.

if the gatso's are about safety as people say why are the police and the government trying to get gatso detectors banned in cars.

try this link about the accuracy of hand held devices.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...de/3605446.stm

regards
andy

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

I agree ban then already then, but sadly the average motorist is that stupid they will do 90 in a built up area, which is begging for a kid or old person to get hurt, I know and fully understand there are drivers with a brain who watch how they drive all time and just want to get where they are going and drive proffesionally and maturely. But sadly the average motorist needs some form of way to keep them under control.

How many times have I seen grannys in there Ford Fiesta 1.2 come hurtling down a road near where I live at over 60mph, then hit brakes for the well known gatso.

What method of control would there be if gatso's went?? what would there be to stop the youth in his financed Ford Focus Vtec flooring it everywhere??

Cars are faster. more affordable... we have finance...kids are stupid and accidents will happen if we dont limit people and enforce them limits..only other option away from the camera in my view, is to link all cars electronically to a gps system, which then limits the car to the designated speed limit of that area.

Sadly there is more stupidity then intelligence on the road these days.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

as you say andrewjames people slow down for the gatso's.so surely that shows that gatso's should be done away with and more mobile speed camera's should be used.

where i live the coppers use a big white van with two small camera's in the back,you don't even know its a speed trap until you've passed it.its much more effective than a gatso.
i myself tend not to speed now i'm getting older,but everytime i look down the road and see a white van parked at the side of the road i automatically check my speed and adjust it if necessary.and there are more white vans about than gatso's.

regards
andy

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

A machine can do the job of 100coppers, I personally rather the cops was on patrol awaiting any 999 calls, rather then in a ditch in a white van booking people, when machines could do it.


I remember seeing it on telly once the car which could not speed because a satellite limited it to the speed limit of the zone it was in.

edit: 800th post :D

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

yes but what i'm trying to say is people slow for gatso's then speed up.

on the other hand if the police used unmarked white van speed traps for a while,then perhaps other drivers like me would think that the white van they see parked up the road could be a speed trap and slow down accordingly.after all it could be a police speed trap or it could just be an innocent white van parked at the side of the road.
i myself won't take the chance that its not a speed trap so i slow down.

and i thought these camera vans have civilian operators in them not coppers.

andy

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

They indeed do that but people cannot complain about it because it's doing what speed cameras are supposed to do ie make an accident blackspot safer by attempting to control the drivers' speed. Once the driver has passed that spot, a speed camera is no longer required right? Because that's what they're for, right?

</sarcasm>

The only people who object to drivers speeding up afterward tend to be the rabid anti-car brigade and those who want to make money from the Gatsos.

We all know how essential it is to keep up the flow of traffic on the roads so the other main problem of these machines are those irritating people who, upon spotting a camera (or what they THINK is a camera) drop about 5mph under the limit "just to be sure"..... :grind:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

you wouldn't like me then russ d,because i am one of those that drop about 5mph under the limit when i see a gatso because i don't trust there accuracy.

i'd sooner be irritating than 60 quid poorer with another 3 penalty points on my licence.

andy

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

If the police did that, a lot of people would ask "Why aren't you catching real criminals instead of hassling the innocent motorist".

In an ideal world, we would not need any kind of speed enforcement, but we are not in an ideal world. People do think they do not have to take account of others.

I personally believe speed cameras (properly used) are probably the best solution. Even if people just slam the anchors on before the camera (sometimes it seems like the best way to see how well the brakes of a car work is watch somebody slow down as they approach a camera) then speed up just out of range. What other solutions are there? Speed bumps? Narrow roads/chicanes? These both work, but have drawbacks: People who have had back operations often cannot drive over speed bumps at any speed without pain. As discussed earlier, the problem with Chicanes is that the real speed freaks/chavs will have small cars and be able to negotiate these at speed easily. Even if they can't, they may take it as a challenge.

I realise most drivers probably stick within the limit, and only creep over infrequently, but until people (thinking mainly of bad drivers and habitual speeders here) learn to respect other road users I think we will have to have some sort of enforcement. I think speed cameras are probably the most efficient means.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Well I'm not going to judge you on that alone because I don't know you but I have to that is one of the most irritating habits on the road today. Speed cameras are set to allow you a margin of error of 3mph plus 10%, so if someone wanted to push it to an extreme, they could technically get away with 36mph in a 30 zone, 57mph in a 50 zone and 77mph in a 70, not that I would advise that because the speed limits are obviously there for a reason. So you see, dropping to below the limit is pointless and only serves to cause frustration amongst the rest of us drivers. I'm not saying we all need to go over the limit, far from it. But deliberately going slower for this reason is, IMO very selfish. There's a speed camera on the M4 going through Port Talbot in a 50mph zone and last year South Wales Police admitted that 86% of rear-end shunts on that stretch of road were caused by drivers suddenly dropping to around 40mph as they noticed the camera.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Soon with drivers like that the car will drive you, not the other way around. :erm:

Just so long as it dont run on windows we will be okay.

"windows powered car"

About to crash it would pop up on center console..

"are you sure you wish to deploy airbag"

:erm: :dozey:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

i thought people where saying this already even if they where caught by a gatso and not a copper.

andy

ps if you read this russ d i hope you get over your chest infection soon.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

I have often wondered what the position is if two vehicles are side by side when going past a speed camera. Which vehicle would be targeted or would both be?

Regarding mobile speed traps, do they have to be publicised before being used either by road signs warning that you are entering a mobile speed trap area or bu publication of the dates and locations.

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

where i live they don't give you any warning about mobile speed traps,they just turn up set up and start nicking.

and to answer your first question if they where both speeding they would both be nicked.

andy

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

It may sound like a tired argument, but at least you can reason with a policeman, you can't with a Gatso. If you're suitably humble and you weren't likely to kill anyone with the speed you were going, 9 times out of 10 you can get away with a dressing down. The policeman feels superior, you take it on the chin, you drive away points in tact. Of course this rule does not apply if you're under 21 or drive a chav-mobile, you'll get stopped even if you haven't exceeded the speed limit :LOL:

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

Dont I know it sometimes. :erm: stopped using my mates car for short trips...

Re: Gatso said to be inaccurate...
 

use the methods employed before the speed cameras came in.

as for your nutter in the ford focus - all the camera is doing is getting him to slow down in a particular place - hardly effective speed control. what we need is something that stops him doing over the speed limit regardless of whether there is a camera on the road or not.