Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I'm new to the forum so please forgive me if this has been asked before :)

I have heard/read/been told that NTL have, or are soon to, introduce spam filtering. Is this correct, and if so, what about virus filtering?

I am fully covered on my PC with my own virus/spam/etc protection but it would be nice to know that NTL are also taking steps if only to reduce the band width being used by this kind of problem....

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

This is a bit of a sensitive issue with a lot of people. The majority of inexperienced users would probably welcome spam and/or virus filtering on their email, but almost all advanced users are strongly opposed to any kind of mail filtering done by the ISP. The job of the ISP's mail servers is to accept the customers' mail and make it available to them, without unnecessarily tampering with it. Some users may *want* to receive spam emails or viruses, for whatever reason, and it is not the place of the ISP to say that they cannot. Also, no mail filtering software is 100% accurate, and you can guarantee that some legitimate email would be filtered out by the system.

Installing spam and virus protection is the responsibility of the user, and the most the ISP can do is educate the user about the need to do so. I run my own mail server, so I don't rely on ntl's mail servers for my main email, but if I did I would have to seriously consider switching ISP if they started filtering email.

That's the way I see it, anyway. :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I would disagree re. virus checking - not least because viruses do not just affect the person infected. Spam filtering is a different matter and I believe the eventual intention is to give the users control over this.

AFAIK virus and some level of spam filtering has been in place since the beginning of December, but it seems quite hard to get any details. Certainly I haven't noticed any significant reduction in the amount of SPAM being trapped by Spamcop, but other posters do seem to have noticed a reduction - maybe a phased roll-out?

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Sorry Luv-Snail, it is the responsibility of email serving Internet service providers to ensure they provide a reliable and stable email platform to all subscribers. If you could see the amount of junk email literally targeted at mail servers, and the cost in £M's it takes to process such material, you'd have a different view.

If a user's ISP is filtering spam, and do not offer any user intervention to control such, then users should consider a different email service if they believe that they are being dictated too by their service providers. The fact that BT, Tiscali, AOL, Freeserve and now ntl offer anti spam filtering is evidence that spam is a serious issue. I suspect that most service providers will have some kind of spam filtering service, and in most cases will allow user control at some stage.

ntl may have been slow in the uptake, but they have no choice, better to loose a tiny minority of users to save hundreds and thousands of customers.

ntl are now spam filtering email, and blocking inbound virus infected attachments. Phase two this year will see an increase in spam filtering with the use of a popular third party filtering service, which will have some user control.

You make a valid point though, users should still use their own spam filtering and virus protection, and I'm sure that ntl and other services providers will continue to educate their customers accordingly.

Yes, no anti spam measure is 100% effective, but that should not be a reason to allow spammers through your network. Cut off their source of revenue, and they will go else where. The fact of the matter is that they will limit their attacks to networks that allow spam through., and that could spell disaster to a small network, possibly the one you switch too if you feel ntl are not doing the right thing?

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I agree with luv-snail. (I can' say I love them, but I do hate treading on them :shocked: ) I accept the point that spam is crippling networks, but I think that if muppet users, who should never be let near a toaster let alone a PC, didn't respond to spam and effectively filtered it out using something like Spampal, then the spammers would go away - spamming would no longer be profitable.

For me, the issue is that NTL is doing the filtering. Since when did they get anything right first time? They can't even offer a reliable email service. They'll just make a mess of it and many, many customers will find legitimate emails being blocked. Save yourselves - find another ISP now, while there's still time :D

If NTL is currently filtering spam, then it's not working that well judging by the amount I get.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Much of ntl's problems with their mail service has been because of the millions of spam messages sent to ntl users, and has nothing to do with people responding to spam. Most spam is generated by dictionary attacks against a network, and addresses harvested from virus infected PC's

Oh, and describng millions of Internet users as muppets......not good, its thanks to these millions that we have competition for cheaper and faster services :)

ntl is blocking spam right now, I've seen a difference, but not enough of a difference to say its effective in the mainstream. I've not yet lost any email I was expecting, so so far so good, but that is not to say it won't happen, and that it may cause me problems in the future.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I think it had (has) more to do with NTL simply being incapable of delivering on its promises to customers. I think you missed my point regarding responding to spam. It's only because people respond that spammers are still spamming. Oh and the fact that there's no chance of stopping spammers at source because the countries of origin, such as Eastern Europe, don't have, and aren't ever likely to have, the required legislation and couldn't enforce it if they did. Even our own modern, slightly less corrupt police forces are years behind when it comes to cyberspace and crime. Responses to spam have little impact on network traffic compared to the volume of spam itself.


I'm so grateful :p:


What about the mail you weren't expecting - how do you know you haven't lost any of that? Chances are you will have. That's why I have a non-NTL account for work/professional purposes.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Good comments Greencreeper, however, a couple of observations.

You then said:

So responding to spam does or does not cuase network problems? I hardly think that a handfull of spam responses by ntl customers is responsible for the millions of spams per day that ntl has to handle.

So ntl identifying that Spam has been the major cause of its recent, and well published email problems, then actually starting doing something about it is a break of its promises to its customers?

Spot on, so the solution is to block the spam at the server side, it has to be stopped somewhere, the problem cannot be allowed to get out of hand, with no hope of a respite.

Agreed, and I also have a number of email accounts I can use to be certain I get the email I want. Given the fact that so many ntl customers are complaining about the volumes of spam, ntl would be foolish to continue to think there is no problem, that everybody is in the same boat, and that there is not a solution. The truth is there IS a problem, all ISP's suffer from the effects of spam, and there ARE solutions. Filtering is the only way forward until the major networks can agree on a system of email verification and delivery that will ensure a fair and working spam prevention system. Until that time, ntl and the other major ISP's must take drastic measures

It's not a perfect solution, nobody is arguing with you there, but ntl has about 1.2M Broadband subscribers, they dictate what they want, because they are a genuine, and profitable revenue source to ntl, and if they say "We want protection from this onslaught of junk email", ntl will have to give it to them, or they (we) walk , en mass.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Hang on! Is this actually a fact or a rumour.Have NTL instituted spam filtering? Because I've not noticed any reduction at all and Spamnet is still working hard to sort it for me.

Incog :erm:

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Well, my definition of a "reliable and stable email platform" would be one that successfully delivers all my mail to me - that is, all mail destined to my address. If messages are dropped, for whatever reason, then it's not doing its job.

If ntl's servers and pipes cannot cope with the volume of mail they are receiving, they need to be upgraded. If users want filtering, they can install their own solution - or, if they prefer to be spoonfed, they can pay someone else to do it for them. To be honest, I find it hard to believe that anyone would want someone else to decide which of their emails they can and cannot read. The only people I can imagine supporting the idea of ISP mail filtering are those who believe that mail filters are "magical" and never make a wrong decision.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Since a whole 3 days have gone by and nobody else has said it.....

:welcome: to CF.

Sit back, kick off your shoes, relax, and enjoy your stay!

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

The relationship is not direct, but yes - if you give someone hope, they'll keep on trying. Only takes a few responses for the spammers to think there's something in it for them. The volume of spam is simply the spammers casting their net wide.


I was referring to the dire email service, which to be fair is much more stable these days than it's ever been in the past.


I'm not oppose to blocking spam - I am oppose to NTL blocking spam because I don't trust them not to make a mess of it; and if spam has to be blocked, then give people the choice - opt out or opt in to spam filtering.

It annoys the hell out of me that the competent Netizens have to suffer because of a multitude of muppets. Leave me and the services you provide me alone - I know what I'm doing thanks, and don't need my hand held.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Ironically, the reply notification mail I just received for this thread was incorrectly tagged as spam by my filter. :p I've trained it not to do so in the future, though.

I'd be happy with that...

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Fact, ntl have introduced the first stage anti spam filtering (since late Nov 2004), which I believe is an agressive use of Realtime Blakck Lists, and also do antivirus scanning on inbound emails, and drop them if they are infected.

http://www.ntlworld.com/help/aup/anti_spam.php

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I do understand the real arguments not to block emails, and allow users to deal with spam themselves, but I'm convinced that the bulk of an ISP's customers welcome the fact that their provider is dumping the mail first.

Me, I'm easy about it either way, I use an email client that does some good first stage filtering, and I can then control the rest. :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I just sent a virus to myself and it was quietly dropped by the mail system - the sender (me) never received a rejected email warning. This is not good - the email could have been legitimate.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

But it wasn't, you sent a virus, ntl anti virus system picked it up as a virus and deleted it. Are you saying its bad because you did not get email notification that the email had been blocked, or that the email was dropped despite it having a virus?

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I can see the point that greenkeeper is making. If he was a virus expert and a friend emailed him a virus to have a look at he would never get it even though he wanted it and expected it.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

That would be a crime ianathuth :D

I meant that had I sent a legitimate email with a suspicious attachment, say, then I should be informed if the email is rejected as virus laden, otherwise I'll just assume it arrived and the recipient is ignoring me. And you know what humans are like - "Well he never responded to my email so he can get stuffed" and "Well she said she'd mail me those pics and I haven't got them. That's her with a one star rating in the black book"...

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

:)

You're correct of course.

I would assume there would be some situations where any virus check will throw up a false positive, and a legit email would be rejected.

I think though that ntl are just looking at a major problem for their customers, and deciding that it is not acceptable to allow emails with viruses being delivered to their customers. I know for example that if I need to get a file checked by symantec, I use their AV client, and its gets ftp'd away to them without the need to use SMTP, so I know that will be delivered.

I would have hoped that somebody working for tech support could have offered an opinion either way, perhaps a little customer feedback :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Why would it be a crime? Have you never sent a virus to Symantec or other antivirus software supplier for analysis?

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I know that Wanadoo have a decent solution to spam, they mark each message that looks like spam by adding ***SPAM*** at the beginning of the subject.

The user then decides what to do with it. Delete it straight away or downloaded it to check it, I've never had a false positive from them either. I also don't have to use SpamPal to scan emails from Wanadoo which saves time.

Personally I think having emails deleted on the server that contain viruses isn't a good thing, we should a least get a messages saying its happened or possibly get the email without the attachment, and at best, have the attachment cleaned if it is possible.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Well you are knowingly transmitting something nasty and you cannot consent to being infected AFAIK :erm: I've encountered a virus maybe two or three times in the many years since I started using computers. I just don't get them :cry:

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Hmmm. I'm getting more spam than ever, now around 100 per day. And have received 5 virus-bearing emails this week alone. So whatever they're doing isn't terribly effective.

I'm an experienced user, block spam/viruses myself using various products, but would welcome some decent server side blocking from NTL. So long as it's configurable in some way, or leaves the filtered emails available somewhere, or whatever, I can't see any arguments against it.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

So if a spammer sends an email containing a virus to a pile of randomly generated addresses, they'll get a handy message from all the valid ones telling them the email was rejected but the address is OK :shocked:

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Anyone know what NTL: Business does with its email service? Do they filter in the same way? I ask because a) I'm not convinced that both my outgiong and incoming mails may get caught up in the filter, without me being informed of a delivery failure and b) I still lack faith in NTL: Home's email service, despite the servers managing to stand up for a few weeks at a time recently. Oh and NTL: Business provides a service guarantee which Home doesn't.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Had a thought. Would it make sense to allow users to block mails which feature specific key words. Looking at the junk that still clogs up my Spam box, blocking mails featuring the words Viagra, Cialis, Vicodin, Rolex, teen, sluts or phrases such as 'premature ejaculation' would greatly reduce my unwanted mails. Could someone plenty more kneolwedge of how the networks work advise if this a practical/useful suggestion for reducing unwanted traffic and, therefore, strain on servers?!

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

ahh but they also BLOCK smtp traffic on port 25 to anything other than THEIR smtp server (they claim its to stop spam) although this can be got around by using a different port its rather a pain.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Not sure about your other points andyl, but ntl's Service Level Agreement for Business has to do with conectivity to the network, it does not cover serviices such as email.

I believe that business users on the cable network that do not have a leased static IP address must use smtp.ntlworld.com in order to send email just like residential customers.
____________

Rules can be set up to do this using your own email client, but spammers often spell such spamming words in such a way to trick spam filters. As an example they may spell viagra v1agra, or even v iagr a, with deliberate spelling mistakes and gaps in the letters.

Essentially this would mean that you as the user would have to create hundreds of rules, which is impractical, and can lead to problems in how your email client filters email.

I believe that ntl will introduce additional technology in the coming months to augment their current spam filtering, I think it may even be the Brightmail solution, but I could be wrong. Whatever it is, it will no doubt use lists of words similar to the ones you have mentioned in order to reduce spam, but in a more intelligent way.

For example you may get an email from a spammer stating "buy viagra from our online chemist" in the body, and get another email from your best friend who informs you that he has "started to use viagra" in order to spruce up his love life. Which one do you filter based on the word viagra?

That is the problem that faces spam filtering techology, which means that ntl, and any other network that employs content based filtering needs to offer the user the chance to review any email it considers to be spam, and not just drop it because of a probability that the email IS spam.

Of course, whilst the offer to buy viagra may actually be spam, it could be something that the recipient is interested in. One mans meat is another mans poison. :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Cheers Toto, impressively comprehensive answer. Following on, so is NTL: Business's email just as spasmodically unreliable as NTL: Home's? That seems pretty incredible (although my capacity to be surprised by NTL is severely diminished these days).

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I'm assuming that some business customers get the same issue, however I think that those customers on fixed IP addresses, with fully qualified Domain Names use their own SMTP servers, and are carefull not to get themselves listed.

It isn't good to be honest, but I have to say in ntl's defence that they are by no means the worst out there.

I have friends struggling to run businesses on rather expensive ADSL or leased line solutions, and get poor email services also. Sadly, they do not have that many options available to them, and muddle on as best they can.

Sadly, ntl fail to grasp a market by having a completely reliable email service that works for residential and business customers, otherwise we would not be discussing this, and everybody would be beating a path to their door. :)

I hope that this will change in the future, I also hope that Teri Hatcher will no longer be a desparate housewife, gain 10Lbs and make me her toy boy :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I'm with you there. Toto for President!

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I have had no spam for two days.I'm stunned!! And after I've paid for antispam software too.

Perhaps they have managed to extend it to everyone after all. ;)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Hope so :)

I'm still getting spam though, sometimes small amounts, sometimes large.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

That would be everyone except for me then. I received 78 Spam emails yesterday, which is pretty much in the middle of the normal range of 60-100 per day. I've no idea how many Spams I've had today as webmail hasn't been working all day. Again :(

On the plus side though I haven't received any viruses recently, which either means NTL are doing something right, or no-one's sent me any ;)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

It was a blip.I just got 30 in one go.Better than the usual 50 though. :tu:

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

When I first started this thread I never expected it to generate so much discussion:)

Up until recently I was getting in excess of 100 spam emails a night (lets disconnect the US from the internet I say :p: ). For the last couple of weeks that has dropped to 10 to 15 a night. As for viruses, I've only recevied two in the last several years, both of which were caught by my own virus/spam software.

As an experienced computer user who has worked in the industry for over 20 years I would like to see NTL be more user friendly with the filtering. At present it seems that they just stop what they think is a spam/virus email, and, as others have pointed out, some of them may well be legitimate.

This may well be good for the bandwith problems spam/viruses cause but will not be good for customer satisfaction. I would like to see spam and virus emails marked as such, so that us users can filter them into the relevant folder and do what we would like to with them. However, I can also see the point for those who are not computer literate and would just like to stop receiving them at all. Perhaps they could give users the option of marking or droping the spam/virus emails?????

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I quite like Plusnet's solution (which I have at work). Virus emails are dropped entirely BUT you get a notification from the server that "a message from xxx had a virus and if you actually want to see it contact support with yyyy information".
Spam is handled differently and you get a [SPAM] prefix on the subject and can then set a rule in your email client to junk it all automatically. At least that gives you the option to double check for things that you don't class as spam.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I had a major problem with NTL dropping legitimate email that I needed to receive late last year. I got the the line from 1st level technical support that it was because the emails contained viruses. I knew this wasn't the case.

It was only when I got through to 2nd level technical support that they admitted that they are using the SORBS realtime blacklist (RBL).

The problem with RBLs is that they generate a lot of 'collateral damage'. A RBL is a list of servers that have been noted by the RBL administrators as having been used to send spam at some time in the past. That means one spammer using a server can make that server useless for all the other legitimate customers.

SORBS is particularly problematic in that they consider themselves to be completely unaccountable to those who use their lists. They make a point of saying that they provide these lists on an 'as is' basis and do not stipulate in any way what the lists should be used for. In other words, you are free to use these lists to block email, but they might not do what you want. It is up to you to decide if they serve your purpose.

This is really why I think it is so irresponsible of NTL to be using SORBS at the moment, and as the sole criterion in blocking emails from SORBS-listed servers.

Anyway, I'm currently in dispute with NTL over this issue. So far they have been less than forthcoming in offering a resolution. If they don't soon, it will go to OTELO. If you can really be bothered, you can read about it on my web site.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I did and it was quite interesting.... :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

SORBS are nowt but out of control vigilantes. Interesting to hear about Otelo - never mentioned to me by CS in my many conversations with them. Any help I can provide, just ask,

Andy

Thinking on, we all should complain to NTL about SORBS (I've mentioned it to Tech Supp but the suggestion was NTL couldn;t do owt about it). This is a denial of a service we have all paid for. Could we get a petition going?

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

If this is true, how come I continue to receive emails from SORBS blacklisted addresses? In the last 8 hours I have received 3 on the SORBS list, plus another 4 on SpamCop. I have these flagged by MailWasher.
If NTL are using SORBS, is it only on some accounts? Or is it some cut-down version? Or what?
Interestingly, one of the addresses that is on the SORBS list is an ntlworld address :erm:

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

There is absolutely no doubt that NTL were using SORBS on my incoming mail back in November/December last year. I know this because email started coming through again from a certain ISP immediately that ISP was removed from the SORBS blacklist. They also admitted it in a letter to me (copy on my web site) and said categorically they they would not stop using SORBS.

I can't be certain that they are still using it, or that the blacklist was applied on all NTL incoming mail servers though.

Does anyone know of a free email service that is consistently blacklisted by SORBS so we can test this?

(And yes, it is quite amusing that some of NTL's own outbound email servers are also blacklisted by SORBS. Blacklisted by their own blacklist.)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Any idea if they were using the complete SORBS list or just selected sub-lists? If anyone knows I can set MailWasher to use the same lists to see if stuff still gets through.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

I believe that as long as you point your SMTP server to smtp.ntlworld.com (assuming of course you are using the ntl network) having your IP address listed in SORBS will not be an issue, as most blocking is based on dynamic IP's running their own smtp servers, which is something that should not really happen. So ntl will not bloock the email if it is listed in the SORBS dynamic IP listing, as long as the server sending the email is the official server for the MX listing of that network.

I'm not a great fan of SORBS for that reason, but I hate spam too, so if a network wil not tackle the spam issue, by allowing rouge SMTP servers to run amock, then they can expect to have problems.

It's intersting that there is an upside to this kind of reporting. Many viruses use their own SMTP engine to propagate themselves, so if a network is using SORBS to filter mail, they can potentially reduce the number of email distributed viruses that do not go through the official MX servers of the infected network. ntl by and large then offer an indirect measure to counter virus infected emails.

To be honest, it could be worse. ntl could use the SPEWS block lists, and they are known for their militant attitude for IP listing. It will often take threats of legal action before thy will remove an IP address. I understand that a number of networks have removed their SPEWS checking scripts because of the massive amount of complaints they have received.

But its not all bad, take a look here , and be thankfull you are not a Verizon customer.

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Yes, agreed, and I believe that they will offer customers the ultimate control over spam, but I don't think that will be the case with viruses.

I think there are winners and losers in these scenarios, but I'm sure the best decision will be made, as long as the bean countrs recognise that solving the problem may actually cost money :)

Re: Spam/virus filtering ????
 

Just logged on to my E:mail account and I got 42 Spam mails.