Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I could not believe the superiority of the Sky services on Digital TV compared to NTL when I played around with a friends Sky digital box the other day.

Most channels have interactive content on Sky (All BBC, ITV, Ch4, all the UKTV channels etc etc)

The program guide actuarily loads up fast and WORKS!

Is NTL ever going to get anywhere near Sky - because they have an awful long way to go yet!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Most of those Interactive service are commercially exclusive to $ky, which basically means the broadcasters are offered incentives to only produce content for Sky. From the likes of ITV, CH4 and UKTV we will never see Interactive.

As for Sky Active.........Sky know they are onto a good thing, they can steal customers with the lack of 8 games on Cable or Multistart films.

Until people complain to OFCOM Little will change.

I actually thought the EPG was equally crap and slow, but I guess that is box dependant.........give me the TV Times anyday. That lift music is pure irritation as is the loss of tv sound.........or a mini picture.

ntls search and scan is miles ahead of the Sky blue and white 'block the picture', that doesnt really do very much, it doesnt even tell you what time the programme you are watching started!!...........which is useful to say the least! :rolleyes: You cant find info on anything on later, you cant quickly turn on subtitles, you cant browse and keep the banner up for more than 30 seconds (like pressing tv on ntl).

Will Sky ever catch up on that?

As well as having customer service even worse than ntls and a installation team that couldnt tell its arse from its elbow...........they are great!

(All in my personal experience, neither is particualrly better than the other, Sky is just getting away with abusing its monopoly position due to OFCOMS lack of balls)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Whatever the reason, Sky's product is still far more capable, & superior to ntl's (& now-no "coming soon"!)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Sky's interactive is currently far better than Ntl's. I'll agree on that. As for the actual EPG I personally prefer the Ntl one over sky seeing as it gives you a lot more information about programs etc and you can check through the programs without losing the current channel.

I've used the Ntl guide on a variety of boxes and there are varying speeds. On the Samsung boxes it flies faster than 99% of the Sky boxes. On most bog standard sky boxes I've used the difference between Ntl and Sky full guide hasn't been that noticable. Sky boxes were a bit faster but not hugely so.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Hit info and it will tell you there what time the program started at.

Yes you can. There is a setting which dictates the timeout length for the banner, you can change this to never and that way the banner will stay on the screen until you press back-up to remove it.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Doesn't ntl's only go up 3 days though (as opposed to Sky's 7)? :confused:

Are you referring to Interactive 'red button' stuff?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I know what you're saying, but even Freeview's interactive services are far better than ntl's. It still makes me laugh when I see the little red 'i' for ITV followed by the inevetable 'There is no interactive link for this channel' message!


I'm not sure that will have a great deal of effect. There is no real provision for the level of interactivity that should be made available by broadcasters or carriers from OFCOM, and given the other issues this country has with regard to all broadcasting, I can't really see them introducing one in the near or mid-term.

This I don't really understand. Sky has a majority of digital homes through providing a better service (not necessarily customer service) than its competitors. Cable has been going for longer than satellite TV in this country, but Sky very quickly overtook them as the cable companies were unresponsive, behind the times and offered very little for a lot of money.

Sky very quickly eroded cable's offer through quality marketing, a better product and being quick to adapt. As such Sky is a very profitable company when most cablecos are struggling to break even.

This isn't a monopoly, and IMHO should not be legislated against by OFCOM or anyone else, with the exception of unfair trading of key channels such as Sky Sports etc. (where it was proven they were being unfair to cablecos in their wholesale pricing and this was changed as a result).

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Yes, but if like me, you're only interested in what's on for the day, it's fine, and much better than Skys. If I want to see info for a programme that's an hour ahead, I can do so without having to change channels at all - with sky you have to go back to the guide, which is irritating.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

The Wholesale cost of Sky Sports should again be reviewed, last time it was reviewed there were only 3 or maybe 4 channels now there are 10.

There are 6 games+ that we help to pay for, that we do not recieve in any form. This is wrong and Sky is abusing it monopoly postion in my opinion!

Im not remotely bothered about the Interactive.........just the football matches we help to buy the rights for but cannot see........unless we have an ugly dish and subscribe to Sky!

The cable companies still out penerate Sky in cable areas today, Sky has advantage that it is available to 100% of the population so will naturally have more subscribers. The cable companies offer a cometative product but were crippled by the governments hairbrained idea of franchising (ie letting lots of small companies with little capital, or income dig holes all over the country) instead of letting on big company (even BT was interested) do it! in the interest of stopping monopolies.

In the late 1980s BSB was awarded the first satellite broadcast license by the UK Governement.........they had to provide their own satellites (two, one as backup) and use the superior DMAC Format, this was a condition of the license. Sky was originally a 'pirate' they rented space and used a decidely dodgy but cheapo method of recieving the weaker signal with a big ugly dish compared to the BSB Squariel. OFCOMS predecessor suffered a massive lack of balls in allowing this.........which helped Sky get where it is to day breaking every rule in the book. Murdochs Sky didnt spend hardly anything getting started, and then merged with BSB creating BSkyB, they then sold off the good stuff and continued to use their decidley dodgy, but bigger profit margin methods! I remember the first Amsatrad box from Sky........it was the most tacky thing I had ever seen, like something you get from the seaside souvenir shops!

To this very day they still abuse their position, it is in my opinion clearly anti-competative to sign exclsuive deals for Interactive content, or give subscribers to 'your' channel on a competitiors platform a raw deal, Sky are still making a profit from the subscription of cable customers, so why treat them like crap............answer to make them get a dish.........anti competative!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Yes. IMO though 99% of the time you are interested in either today or tomorrow for seeing what is on.

No the actual guide giving you a 'grid' of programs and what is on different channels at the same time. Red button stuff on both platforms (BBCi mostly) seem to run at very similar speeds. Again this seems down to the actual box. Using the Sky system on a panasonic digibox was amazingly quick and responsive but going back to a bog-standard sky pace box seemed slower than the Ntl ones.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Very anti-competitive in my opinion.

the main reason I am saying this is not the fact of looking up 7 days, but the interactive sky sports.

Why is it that sky will not let cable companies have the interactive services to see whatever match you want on sky sports extra? they want the customers for themselves to make more money.
But for those who have sky sports package with cable are not allowed this, then this is just monopolising something that many would want, therefore they have the upper hand of making people ditch cable.

My family are thinking of getting rid of NTL for sky just for the football, and to be honest this is wrong. NTL provide an OK service, not saying the best, they do have a lot of faults, but it does have the better advantage of better reception in bad weather, with 1,2,3,4,5 added because you have to have an ariel for things like football on bbc1 if sky did not get the license.

I would like to see someone like OFCOM do something about it, would an online petition help?

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

In fairness to NTL, it's up to the broadcasters to provide the interactive service. Maybe NTL could be doing more to encourage development, but having been involved with design of Interactive TV (for a student's project, not a live site), I found that CR3 was technically as capable as the Sky system, and NTL were far more willing to help than Sky. Sky basically said that they could help, but would charge.

NTL gave us the liberate emulation software (Liberate forms the basis of CR3), access to a special off-net test server, and unlimited technical support for free.

Actually, I thought that Sky made huge losses for the first 15 years of it's life, and has only recently started making a profit. IIRC, it was heavily financed as part of Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation. Cable companies (and other broadcasters) do not have the backing of one of the largest (if not the largest) media companies in the world.

Put basically, Sky could (& still can) afford to spend tens of millions of pounds on a new technology, then not worry when they see a return on that investment.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Take a look here, may be worth someone setting up a petition just keep bombarding OFCOM with complaints until they do something!

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...=169238&page=2

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

thanks themelon, but although they have sent letters, what about something like that here.

is there anyone good at writing up letters, so that we can make our own petition, because the digital spy one from the above link only supplies the link to a petition you can make, there is not one there.
I for one am hopeless at such letter writting, or I would do it myself.

I would definitley sign it, cause I for one am fed up that I pay the same for sky sports as someone who has sky digital and sky sports, yet they get the 8 game interactive.

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Just copy and paste on of the letters in that thread. As long as OFCOM Knows many people are upset they might be more inclined to do something worthwhile.

They cant ignore large numbers of complaints. E-mail OFCOM, Sky and ntl asking for answers or write to them, get other people you know to do the same.

I believe a petition is being set up. Will post a link when available.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

And what's wrong with that? :shrug:

They are just protecting their investment. :erm:

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I dunno. Maybe the fact that they get the money whether their viewers see it or cable viewers do? Remember, Sky do not give the sports channels to NTL for free. They do charge NTL for the viewers.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

In which case they shouldnt be allowed to hold the rights for Premiership football or any football on Cable TV.

They shoud charge less for wholesale if the product the cable companies recieve is 1/8 of the full product.

Its anti competative.

Sky Sports as a channel should be the same, or similar on all platforms.

Sky Sports is a channel, we pay the same a Sky subscribers, we help to buy the rights for Sky Sports and should recieve the games.

I dont necessarily want the red button crap........just the 6-8 extra games we help pay for in our subscription! not too much to ask is it?

Another reason Sky should be split in to Content and service provider, the content producing the channel and selling at wholesale cost to the service provider as a seperate entity. That way Sky can not use the rights which its channels own.............to gain more customer which is anti competative and wrong in my opinion.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

So, you see nothing wrong with Sky keeping their interactive content to themselves so they gain/lure more customers, but you still have an issue with ntl bundling their DTV with Telco - surely ntl are just protecting their investment? :rolleyes:

Where's the choice there? You want SSE or SS interactive, you have to get Sky.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

There's a difference between Sky protecting their investment that they have ploughed millions into via development, & ntl forcing their phone line on DTV customers just because they know it's pretty much inferior to BT's in every way.

If ntl didn't force their phone lines on customers somewhere, no one would take them, as invariably the BT lines are superior due to the features that they are pretty much guaranteed to offer, as opposed to ntl's hit & miss affair of what they do/don't, offer & in what region-CLI being a good example.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Also Sky Sports isnt pureley a Sky Digital Investment.

Everyone who subscribes to Sky Sports be it on Cable or on Satellite, is helping them to buy the rights, all channle subsribers paying the same should recieve the same service (within reason, ie not exactly the same just including the games we pay for)

Sky Sports shouldnt really be anything to do with Sky Digital.........again the failings of the incompetatnt OFCOM!

Sky Digital = Service Provider
Sky Sports = Channel

Using Sky Sports to gain more subscribers for Digital Satellite is wrong.........pure and simple.........Their soul intention should be getting Sky Sports viewed by as many people as possible, not on what platform they are using.

If thats the way Sky wish to be then they should lose the football rights on Digital Cable.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

OPINION ALERT (see above)

My ntl line is superior in every way, I couldnt give a flying F about 'advanced features' like caller ID...........all I want is a line that doesnt crackle and hiss.

I have had 2 houses where my BT Line crackles and hisses, and generally has a low volume.

In my experience my ntl Line is superior in every way because I can actually hear people on the other end which is nice!

Better than the BT bean can connection!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

You may be paying the same for Sky Sports to NTL that Sky customers pay to Sky for it, but who dictates the price that NTL charge? Could it be that you should be petitioning NTL for a reduction in the charge rather than having a go at Sky? At the same time you could ask NTL why they charge the same as Sky for the Family pack but do not have as many channels as Sky.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Sky is a business and like every other business it will do whatever it can to maximise revenue and profit. Sky ploughed money and took risks in developing Sky Sports and are entitled to use it as a marketing tool. Look what happened to ITV Digital when they dipped their toe in the water with Premiership Football coverage. There was nothing stopping NTL from launching NTL Sports and doing the same as Sky have done. In fact there was nothing AFAIK to prevent NTL from launching a satellite service in competition with Sky. Just think what NTL could do with a satellite service linked to its cable business.

I wish that all those people moaning about evil Sky were in full possession of all the facts before sounding off. Do they know all the ins and outs of the contracts involved, prices charges, technical ability to provide a multi screen service across the whole NTL network and all other factors involved. What would the moaners say if the boot was on the other foot and NTL had more content on a channel than Sky had and Sky customers were moaning.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Which in a circular way comes back to the Govt. and evil OFCOM.
If NTL or whomever had been able to cable the entire country, not parts then pickoff the rest, there would be a coherent infrastructure meaning providing multiscreen etc would be less technically challenging, sky certainly have a benefit of running a single platform.
OFCOM have let Sky railroad the country into digital sat broadcasting and thinking multichannel is the domain of sat broadcasting, compare to the US, where only now is Sat starting to get a foothold, and purely through price competition against the cable incumbants.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

The charge for Sky Sports is determined by the wholesale cost. Which OFCOM approved after previously finding unfair............this was over 2 years ago, so is now outdated Sky have started 6 xtra sports channels since.

Sky make a minimum of 90% from every ntl Sky Sports Subscription.

So Sky are charging about 20 quid wholesale for sports and movies, this is still too much (especially when we dont over half of the football)

ntl need to be ble to make a mark up of some kind to make it worthwhile evn having the channels.

The majority arent really bothered about the channels, most of the worthwhile paid channels are in both family pack, it generally free special interest channels which you can get free anyway that are extra (except in a few cases) The major channels are on both.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Please post the links where you obtained those figures from. I doubt that Sky have ever published any such detail.

It is rather presumptious to say what people want to watch and what they aren't bothered about. I would imagine that NTL have cutomers for the God channel (otherwise why carry it) which costs £6 extra on NTL but is free on Sky.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I dont think they should use Sky Sports to market Sky Digital.

They should market Sky Sports as Sky Sports!

Sky have the backing of the biggest media tycoon in the world, noone can compete without getting burnt. ITV Digital (Granada Carlton biggest Commercial Broadcaster, got into a bidding war for prem rights and lost). There is no way another company can outbid them now.

The question that needs to be asked is why did Sky get away with bending the rules to gain an advantage in the late 80s, while cable was being crippled by the governments fabtastic idea of franchising.

There is nothing to Stop ntl launching a satellite service, but I think any revenue is best spent on sorting out what they have already. IP is the future anyway, so Satellite would be a shortsighted short term view, better to sort out what they have for the future.

The wholesale costs should cover Sky Sports as a channel (or group of), our susbscription helps pay for the rights to all these games...........so we should get all these games these are facts. Sky is not giving us what we pay for, they have two choices:

Lower wholesale costs which were last reviewed when only 3 Sky Sports Channels existed.

Or give us the content, Im not bothered (im sure many arent) about Interactive gumph, just the football matches on another channel (Xtra 1-6 for instance) which afterall our subscription to Sky Sports the channel helped to buy.

If ntl were doing the same it would still be wrong, if they cant be bothered to develop the Interactive application fair enough but at least provide us with the football.........which we are paying for!

Failing that reduce wholesale costs so ntl can charge less to us............and begin screwing Sky for subscribers too!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

They are available from OFCOM no specific link.

Maybe a press release from a few years back.

OFCOM judged it fair a couple of years agao but things have changed, so a reveiw is in order.

Channels viewer figures can be an indication of what the majority of people want to watch, Obviously the only way for the God Channel to be viable is for it to cost 6 quid on ntl, that will becuase the God Channel operators will need to pay ntl for space, this will need to be funded, probably the only way for the God Channel to afford these costs on ntl is via £6 due to its percentage viewers on Sky it may have a larger viewer base, so adverts could pay for the channel.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Umm............From a Sky Financial report

'Excluding the GBP4 million one-off receipt of audit monies from ntl in the comparable period, wholesale revenues increased by 8% to GBP52 million. This was driven by increases in the average number of cable subscribers and the average revenue per subscriber as a result of changes to wholesale pricing from January 2004. '

umm give us the same service else you lose this money! I will certainally be cancelling everything to do with Sky (Sports and Movies) unless they provide us with the same service..........very soon!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I think they force their phone line as it is a low cost item to provide and the money used from this is profit which subsides the TV service - especially the cost of providing a Set Top Box 'rent free'. If you want no phone line bundled with the service then expect the price of the TV service to drop by only a small amount - perhaps £2 a month!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I don't know how much of the NTL network is capable of Multi screens. I suspect most of it is now..

However, I do agree with themelon: Sky should be required to seperate their channels and distribution system. They should not give preferential treatment to their own subscribers (which they would not be able to do if their distribution was a seperate company).

Maybe I am being a bit simplistic here, but I do think that if I pay money for a channel, I should get the exact same service across all distribution systems. Wether I am watching it on Cable or Satellite should be irrelevant. Subscribers to one system certainly shouldn't get this much less for the same price.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

If you don't want the telephone line you still have to pay the full price for it if you want the DTV service.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

A point I have been making for ages-no choice. :td:

I still feel it's unfair for ntl to force their inferior (to BT) phone line on people.

[Edit]-At very least they should offer a discount if you don't want the phone line, but to just bundle it with no choice is poor IMO.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

What's wrong with it is that Sky are using their monopoly in one area -- broadcasting of live sports -- to influence another sector, namely the supply of digital TV to the home.

It's the same as if Microsoft produced an all-singing, all-dancing version of Word for Windows, but charged the same for a Mac version which was just a basic text editor. They would be guilty of anticompetetive behaviour, namely using their dominance in the field of Office applications to try to force people into using Windows.

The solution is to split BSkyB into separate broadcast and delivery companies, and let market forces take their course. Then Sky Broadcast would charge both Sky Digital and NTL per subscriber per channel -- and result in Sky Digital customers paying more (or, alternatively, Sky Broadcast offering the extra streams on NTL so as to increase their revenue).

In fact, it doesn't even have to be done. Just the threat of it would be enough. It's the threat of being split up that keep Microsoft making version of Office for the Mac that are equal (and some might say superior) to the Windows versions.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

But is it simply that Sky don't/won't offer it to the cable companies, or that the cable platform is not able/capable of delivering the full features of Sky Sports?

But if the cable platform is not physically capable of carrying an identical version of Sky Sports (including full red button interactivity/player cam etc), then even threatening Sky would have no impact as they would just say that the cable platform cannot physically offer the features that Digital Satellite can? :shrug:

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I agree with your thinking but do we know beyond doubt if the NTL network is capable of supplying the same multi screen service as Sky. Do we know what NTL have to pay Sky for the channels and is this payment the same whether multi screen facilities are given or not. Are Sky refusing to give NTL the multi screen capability or is it NTL that is refusing to take it.

It could be that NTL only want to pay Sky for the main Sports channels without their multi screen capabilities but want to charge customers the same price as Sky charge theirs with multi screen.

Without the full facts we can only guess or assume what is going on. It may be Sky or it may be NTL that is causing the differences in what we get on the different platforms.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

If the cable network weren't capable of offering it, that would be one thing. But all the Sky Sports Interactive things are really are hidden screens and the occasional graphical overlay, which the NTL software can deal with (see the BBC Wimbledon app for example).

I think the issue really is multiplex space. If NTL offer Sky another 8 high-bitrate streams (they need to be high to show sports well), then that's probably the same space as could be filled by perhaps 12 regular channels. NTL would expect Sky (not unreasonably) to pay the going rate for this bandwidth -- after all, Sky have to rent this space on the satellite to broadcast to their own subscribers, so why not rent it on NTL? But since Sky will get the same amount of money from NTL Sky Sports subscribers regardless of whether they provide the extra streams or not, they surprisingly choose not to give money to their biggest rival. So somebody has to force the issue here.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

might point is that if you did unbundle it then the cost of the TV service wouldnt drop by the cost of a phone line rental.



speaking of unfair practices - SKY are effectively using their platform to gain an advantage in the PVR market - they bundle their PVR option with either the choice of paying £10 a month or subscribing to premium channels.

they're all at it - both NTL and SKY try to lock you into a 'package' which has anti competitive elements.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I think Tristan has hit the nail on the head. Do NTL have space to provide the extra channels needed for the up to eight extra streams for Champions League and Football First coverage considering that the space is only needed for a few hours now and then.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

So it appears to be a 'problem' on ntl's side rather than Sky's (lack of space and/or bandwidth)?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

They do have space......its more a case that Sky dont want to pay for it as Tristan said. There will be ample space next year when VOD rolls out and NVOD closes down, 50ish channels.

In which case I dont want to pay for the Inferior Sky Sports Service.........and while im at it I will dump the movies as well because its mostly crap and repeats these days anyway. £20 odd saved! nice one Sky!

Not only do you **** me off sufficiently to dump you ****ty Shatellite service...you also stop me subscribing to your channels full top due to your monopolistic idiotic behaviour!

Great Business........I really do hope Skys greed is the cause of its demise in years to come, when people wise up and relaise what they can save.

Anyways for those interested a petition is here to sign, on getting some action taken.

http://www.petitiononline.com/of2c2004/petition.html

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

No, I was suggesting that Sky were unwilling to pay the going rate for the space, rather than NTL not having the space available.

I beleive that NTL actually have a number of reserved "e-TV channels" hidden from view that are available for any broadcaster who's willing to pay for them. So far only the BBC have done so. Based on the e-TV content we've had so far, there are at least 6 of these available. There's no reason to think that NTL couldn't add more if the need was there. They're not full yet.

And themelon: the Front Row VOD service will use the space currently occupied by the NVOD streams. No bandwidth will be saved, at least initially.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

well if bbc can give us interactive for the olympics then why can't ntl give us the 8 channels of football, it is roughly the same, is it not?

so therefore, it comes down to a few things.

1. sky not letting ntl have it or if they do, they will be asking the earht for it, so that customers go to sky.
2. ntl just being lazy, and not even bidding for things like this, maybe not even listening to their customers needs/wants. but I don't think that ntl would would want to lose customers.
3. ofcom not taking a serious look at the whole, not just sky, but all parties in this.

the microsoft analogy does some it up, to be honest, but all I am asking for is the same. would sky and ntl get the finger out if everybody on ntl cancelled their subscription to sky sports (and maybe movies) for about 3 - 5 months, there for, ntl need money to pay sky, and sky want the money so as an incentive give out the extra features.

I have subscribed to sky sports package, the same as anyone on sky regardless what ntl pay sky, so I want the same features as sky customers, regardless of me being on cable. if it is ntls prob then they should pull their finger out.

so to the main sky lovers here, I am trying to show all sides not just sky or ntl, I am looking at it as a customer wanting what he paid for.........

do you agree?

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I cant honestly see why ntl wouldnt have it, it would be pure stupidity for them not to offer a service that they can offer, as they will lose customers.

Likelyhood is it will be the Sky end playing up as usual. I cant really see what negotiations need to be done really...........its part of the Sky Sports package we should get it, pure and simple. If its not part of the Sky Sports package it should be an optional extra to Sky Sports users on Digital Satellite too.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

If Sky are causing the problem here (by asking extortionate amounts of money from the cable companies for example), then all ntl have to do is communicate that to their customers.

People have been asking as long as I can remember for full red button interactivity that fully mirrors what Sky Digital customers get.

The silence from ntl makes me think that this 'issue' lies on ntl's side rather than Sky's, I can't see any other reason for it. :shrug:

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

It doesn't necessarily indicate that at all. Even if NTL have done something good for their customers, they are often incapable of communicating the fact..

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

They did communicate it to us over a year ago (I think) I recieved a letter stating they were in negotiations with Sky over bringing Sky Active style services to cable, this was just after BMR1.

So presumably these negotiations are still on going, presumably Sky are not wishing to pay for Space on ntl, yet the are willing to pay SES Astra to space to get more customers on their platform............Interesting.........and Anti Competative.

If Skys Content and Service provider divisions were seperated this is something that wouldnt happen, Sky Sports has other motives, to get Sky Digital more customers. Sky Sports core business should be to get as many customers for Sky Sports.........no matter what the platform.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

That's the point I was making. :)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

you were not really making this point though

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

One thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is whether the Sky Sports streams that Sky uses can be run on NTL. Presumably the streams contain instructions for the Sky digibox to take advantage of them which may render them unusable with NTLs software. If that is the case then would it be Sky or NTL that would have to modify the streams (if this is possible) to be able to make them available via NTL. Who would bear the cost of this if it is possible?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Well the streams must originally be in a standard video format, so could be distributed as that.

As I say, Im not too fussed about the multiscreen, just the extra matches, which after all our subscriptions (to Sky Sports as a channel) did help buy.

I think all cable subscribers unsubscribing, and perhaps getting a season ticket to you local team will drill the message home to Sky.......hit them where it hurts with profits and maybe they will take notice.

I probably will in the new year.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Which comes back to my original point of "which side does the problem lie on-Sky's reluctance to give it to ntl, or ntl's network having an inabilty to cope with it?"

I actually think it's both, I think Sky want to hold on to it as it gives their product an edge over the cable companies (they developed it, so why not?), & I also think that ntl's network can't handle it (I should say that's what I was told last time I was in ntl Hook)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Actually, the existing four Sky Sports channels are sent uncompressed along a cable from Sky HQ to Langley, where NTL encode and multiplex them themselves. This is done to ensure the best quality picture at the end. That's not to say that the other 8 channels would have to be done that way though. As they'd be used only once or twice a week, NTL could conceivably just take them off the satellite as they do with scores of other channels.

And no, the video is just standard DVB(-S, converted to DVB-C very easily). There would also be an interactive datastream for the Sky box, but this would just be ignored. Someone would need to write a Liberate version of it. On satellite, this is always the job of the broadcaster, so that's another cost that Sky would most likely be unwilling to meet.

What it comes down to is that it's perfectly possible to do, if Sky are willing to pay for it. And if you were a businessman, would you spend a lot of money for zero return, do your biggest rival a favour, and lose on of your own USPs?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

True, you did appear to be making the point about NTL not communicating. However, that does not necessarily indicate that NTL's network can not handle Sky's interactive parts.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I dont see any reason why ntl cannot just have the channels.........sod the interactive.

This highlights what is wrong! Why should Sky be able to use Sky Sports to sell Sky Digital? Sky Sports is partially funded by Cable susbcriptions.

Sky Digital the platform and Sky Sports the Channel should be seperate entities without hidden agendas (ie more subscribers for Sky).

The Channel should make money in its way selling its product, on an indiscrimate basis to whichever providers are willing to pay for it.

Sky Digital should making money by being a service provider, and channels with rights that have been supported in funding by cable subscribers should not be exclusive.

If Sky does not wish to play fair, the Cable football rights should be given to ntl or someone else to give their customers a fair deal.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

After over 50 posts we are still no wiser about why NTL does not have multi screen football on Sky Sports. Perhaps we should wait until someone that knows the answer gives it to us. Some people are very quick to say it's all Skys fault whilst others blame anything that goes wrong on NTL. Wonder if Sam B has the answer?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Blimey, this one's going round in so many circles, I'm feeling dizzy!

Let's assume you're correct and this about ntl trying to charge Sky for interactive content delivery:

1. It wouldn't be the first time I have heard of ntl overpricing its carraige fees.

2. It is still (compared to watching telly) a niche service, and probably not worth Sky paying for. This is especially true when the platform it would be delivered on is so flaky most people don't bother with it.

3. They don't pay SES Astra for interactive carraige. They pay for bandwidth, the platform (which is used by many people and therefore worthwhile) is owned by Sky.

I would agree that the fact that they have not put the interactive services on cable could be seen to be in the attempt to attract more customers to its own service, and there could be some truth in that, but I would suspect that it has a lot to do with compatability and cost.

I'm not sure it could handle it to be honest. The Olympics multiscreen rarely worked for me, it crashed the box more often than it worked, and the one time it did work, I couldn't get out of it without pulling the power!

I think you're right on this, there would be little point in Sky paying for a service that would probably only end up making itself look bad too (if it crashed as often as the example above). There could be an argument for a return on investment using the red button for voting, but I seriously doubt the numbers of people that would use it in its current state would justify the expense.

I think you're right too! IMHO (not through any kind of special knowledge) I really think that ntl got itself a white elephant with the current digital box setup. They didn't put enough thought into it in the first place, and now people can see that it is inferior to both of the other DTV interactive services.

I don't know if this is possible, but for a layman such as I, it would appear sensible for ntl to just become a carraige business and then we could plug a Sky box into the ntl cable. Crazy or not?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Mine worked - I think the issue was the actual stb rather than the network...

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

That's just the problem though, red button stuff on ntl is a very hit & miss affair (which compounds my thoughts about the network not being up to the job)

It would appear as if it works some of the time for some people, but for others it just crashes the boxes, & that can't be an issue on Sky's side.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

You think Sky never crashes?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

:rolleyes:

That's not what I said. :nono:

We are discussing Sky Sports full red button interactivity on ntl (or lack of it)

I may well run a poll in the Sky forum to see how often people's Sky boxes crash, but that's not relevant here. :angel:

I bet you don't know anyone whose Sky box crashes like ntl's does. ;)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

You're right, I don't. But then I only know one person that has Sky.....

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

My Sky box has only crashed once since I've had it (over a year). When I had NTL even looking at the interactive button would make it crash!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

And does the box crash under red button requests?

[Edit]- http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=21117

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

It does seem to be the pace boxes that have problems.. A lot of these may have to be replaced when the forthcoming speed upgrades happen..

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I know a number of people who Sky boxes crash.

Those crappy Pace ones it seems.

One person cant even get the red button to work at all.

The whole red button business is drastically overhyped.....

I have NEVER seen it work problem free on any platform. (Freeview looking the most stable) It makes me laugh how people always big up Sky! yet everytime I or someone else have tried to use something remotely interesting at my girlfriends mum and dads........It has failed, be it sports or Interactive Job Channels! Nothing happend not even a loading (or not), pure nothingness which resulted in a box reset.

All I want is the channels showing the football (we help to buy in our subscription) labeled xtra 1-6 (or similar) how hard is that?........I couldnt care less about red button fanfares!

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

It 'freezes' for quite a long time....

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Im thinking the survey maybe a little one sided

being as most forum memebers who have moved to Sky think the sun shines out of its backside.

And one of the purposes of this forum is to resolve ntl customers problems, so the ntl customers will for the most part be......the ones who have problems with their STB.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

There is an open vote for current/former ntl customers regarding STB lock ups (or not) here: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=21118

It's not one sided at all, it gives 4 very clear, concise options to choose from. :)

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

But sureley this site is to solve problems, or rant about ntls services.

So the majority of people here are the ones that have problems.

The people who have a good service for the most part arent going to come on and congratulate them for a great service are they.

But those upset previously will go on about how great Sky is :D

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

If everything about NTL was as good as you make it out to be and Sky so bad then nobody would ever move from NTL to Sky. Why do you think that NTL customers move?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I can almost predict the answer you are going to get! :D :angel:

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

True, the alternative, easy to implement / understand solution is to not hide these extra broadcast channels, but give them their own channel numbers for the duration.

BBC Olympics 1 = 170
BBC Olympics 2 = 171

and so on. Its only down to stupid gov't legislation that they cannot do this, this is how other countries broadcast such events :mad: .

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Some people do get terrible service from ntl. That's why they move.

But then again, some people do get terrible service from Sky and move to ntl.

You're always going to hear more about how poor ntl are on here, as this whole site originates from and ntl woe/hate site.

There's p1ssed off customers of both companies everywhere. But on an ntl site, you're obviously going to hear more about ntl than you will Sky. :shrug:

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

If everything on ntl was so bad they wouldnt have any customers.

And how come customers move from Sky to ntl and find it much better....like myself :D

And a number of other people I know.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I am not saying that everything about NTL is bad. I have NTL telephone and NTL broadband which means that NTL are providing me with a satisfactory level of service in those two areas at a reasonable price. I have Sky DTV because they are giving me a level of service that NTL could not give and on top of that give me features that NTL cannot provide. I would readily switch back to NTL DTV if it gets to the point where it can give me everything that Sky does and something extra on top to persuade me to change. I can't see the point in changing supplier if the new supplier cannot offer any enhancement to what I am happy with. Have you a good word to say about Sky or BT?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Not really becuase every dealing I have ever had with both te said companies be it for private or business purposes, has been an absolute nightmare.

I can accept that some people will get a perfect great service from the said companies....but they wernt for me.

I dont think either Sky, BT or ntl are fantastic in terms of what we 'should' be getting, both have their faults.

But for me ntl offer a more staifactory service..the reason I changed after 10+ years of misery.

The problem is when a problem arises people on this forum try and paint the BT and Sky world as a bed of roses, where the sun shines from between their arse cheeks..I like to remind people that neither service is perfect, all have their flaws.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I have noticed that this thread is starting to be a battle of who is better, sky or ntl, when this was not really the issue.

All this thread was about was a fair deal, fro ntl customers from either NTL/SKY, no matter who is at fault,

I am not that bothered about bandwidth, all I want is my tv to work, which I am happy with, and to have the same option as any sky customer who has sky sports, and watch the extra matches, especially if the game I want to watch is in the extra games.

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

It's not that everything is so bad...we're talking about one issue here. Personally my experience of intactive is very poor, but I have resigned myself to the fact that it doesn't work and so I don't use it. Me jumping up and down won't make any difference (believe me I've tried).

I've come dangerously close to dumping ntl all together, but the hassle involved (my BT phone line is a stupid place) in relocating everything, changing BB providers and trying to find a suitable place to stick a dish on a listed building simply isn't worth it to me. I don't really have any major quibbles with the channels ntl have on offer, the telephone or the BB - so it's not worth it.

I just find it very frustrating that a service I'm paying for doesn't work as it was/is advertised.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

The issue is "Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?"
I want to know whether I can expect to get the scale of interactive you get on sky....ever?

As crashing of the boxes has come up, my NTL Box crashes everytime I first press red for interactive. I then have to switch off the NTL box and re-boot it - it generally works after that for the period of time I view the red button interactive. However next time I access red button - it's switch off and on time again!

Should I ask for a new box - I have a pace box and people seem to be saying that they are no good?
Will this also speed up the guide?

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

No........probably never

Sky have signed exclusive deals with ITV, CH4 UKTV and various other providers.

The BBC Can work well.

I would suggest fitting a timer switch to your box to reboot at 4am or something, this should speed things up and resolve the problems with Interactive which seem to be memory issues.

It seems the Samsung is better, but there is no garuntee you will get this unless you subscribe to 1.5Mb through a Set Top Box

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Not sure where you're getting this information from.

ITV not that long ago was at lggerheads with Sky itself, and the ITVi application is available on Freeview.

C4's interactive is also on Freeview.

UKTV is half owned by the BBC, so I would be surprised if this were true.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

I have came across this information whilst working for a company which devlops software for Digital TV, for companies across the world.

ITVi on Freeview? Is it?

It certainally doesnt do anything on my freeview box on ITV when you press red. And I wasnt aware of anything unless its recent.

C4 Links to fourtext which is a complete waste of time and effort, it does the same as Teletext but is very slow and useless.

UKTV Doesnt do anything.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

ITVi is not available on Freeview. It used to be available on ITV Digital years ago I believe.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

No, ITVi is Sky only.

I am fairly certain Channel 4 have a limited Interactive service on NTL as well (a couple of games and not an awful lot else)
Isn't the other half Flextech, who have something to do with Telewest? If that's the case, I would be surprised if they had an exclusive deal with Sky, as it would be less profitable for them to do so..

Edit: Just checked on Flextech.co.uk. Flextech IS the content division of Telewest Broadband, and they do own half of UKTV (the other half is owned by BBC worldwide).

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Could be something recent, or perhaps for certain programmes or adverts only, I'm, not 100%.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Everyone,

here is a petition for NTL customers to get interactive 8 games from sky sports.
http://www.petitiononline.com/of2c2004/petition.html

if you would like to see this, then please sign up.

ik

LMAO-There's an advert for Sky at the bottom of the page!! :D:D

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

Yes,

I did notice it and thought it a bit ironic.

ik

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

did the petition ever get sent away, and get a reply?

I noticed its not there anymore.

Re: Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?
 

only 103 signatures so far, it is paltry

ik