Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Okay, I've had both good and bad experiences with ntl:
Unfortunately, mostly bad, but I'm not going to gripe about it.

I was lured by their offer of free unmetred dial-up, but was a customer for absolutely ages before I was able to have this service, which they stopped about three months later(!)

But then they offered cheap unmetred dial-up, which was fairly reliable, along with fairly cheap (if not exactly reliable) tv and telephone.

I kept thinking, "it will get better, it will get better" whilst consoling myself with the thought that at least I was saving a few quid.

Then, cheap broadband. Again, fairly reliable.

Now, several years down the line, things don't seem to have improved all that much. Every time it seems to be okay for a while, something else happens, this time on a Sunday when customer services no longer operates.

And I can't even console myself with saving a few bob.

NTL
Phone and TV Family Pack £29.00
Broadband 300k £17.99
TOTAL £46.99

BT et al
Phone (BT Together) £10.50
Sky Family Pack £19.50
Bb 256k Tiscali or similar £17.99
TOTAL £47.99

And that's without shopping around for a good broadband deal.

It's not the money - like I say, I think "okay, ntl isn't great, but it'll get there and meantime I'm saving £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£". But it seems that isn't so.

Ho-hum.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

NTL bring neither unique features, nor exceptional prices - you really have pinned it down.

Very little of any use on interactive, and less programme extras than on Freeview.
NTL's own film channel "The Studio" packed up ages ago.
New channels added on Sky that have not come down to NTL.

I'll be honest, a friend decided to go NTL, and I tried to talk them out of it.
PS. They now have a new TV which has DVB - and the channels that are on both, the picture is better on DVB than on NTL - and that is with the STB connected by SCART and using RGB - and it IS definitely going by RGB as the interactive text is much sharper when RGB is selected.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

..and you can have your fair share of problems down the bt route aswell.

I know people who have problems with bt/sky and others who don't. As on here there are people who have their problems with ntl and in my area i don't know anybody who's service has been any different to mine; practically flawless.

All i'm saying is while you may have a problem, others may not and the service from the other providers could just be as bad :shrug:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Does ntl offer a viable product any more? - Yes.

and that 300k at £17.99 - soon to be 1m at the same price. :)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Is that it? ;)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Sadly I don't see that ntl are massively innovative in their packages, they seem to be content with being in the pack and gaining as much cash from the products as possible.
Much like most other companies of that size really...

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

the broadband products are soon to be market leading in terms of speeds for your monthly outlay. as for the other products they do - I gave up on their TV and phone services a couple of years back as they didnt match BT and SKY for the facilities and functionality.

broadband is the future and due to the kind of network NTL have, they're going to knock the socks off ADSL with their 2mb £25 product plus next year if the speeds are increased at the same rate as this year then we'll be getting 6-8mb for £25! ;)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

No, but I'm not about to go over all the old ground yet again. :)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Hmmm...."Market Leading"? That's not how I would describe ntl at all.

They copied TW's idea of the initial speed increases (some areas still don't have it & TW's upgrade was finished ahead of schedule)

I would say ntl are re-active, not pro-active & "Market Leaders"

And they still don't.

Firstly-you won't see those speed increases again next year, & secondly it looks like a v large amount of ADSL exchanges will be able to get 8 meg/£40.00 BB-Now that's market leading......;)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

No Neil thats pandering to all the speed freaks out there!! How many people would want to have such speeds or have any use for them?

bloody speed freaks :rant: :angel:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

They are in terms of speed v price Neil.




In some areas, they DO Neil. My interactive, tv email etc works absolutely fine. :)


How do you know? And which exchanges will be able for 8 meg? Do you have a map/more info?

[edit]

Not to worry, have found the info. 50% of homes (within 2km of the exchange to receive this). You have to have a BT line to receive the service. Your line may not be up to scratcg, so you may only get between 4 - 6 meg.... Sounds OK Neil, but I wish you'd disect this offer like you would with any ntl offer.... :rolleyes:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

TW have a much smaller network and less customers, ntl has had problems with STBs that need changing to.

TW Copied ntls recent speed upgrades! :rolleyes:

My ntl TV is better than Sky, my ntl Phoneline is better than BT (no crackles that cant be fixed 'ever' apparently and this is the second BT line I have had with this problem)..............what you think on this is PURELEY a matter of opinion and nothing else. Functionality (usability) is a funny one to be suggested I would actually say there are sections of CR3 FAR more functional than the Sky Dodgyguide like Search and Scan, gaining info on programmes on later, ease of use for ordering PPV, mini tv in EPG instead of lift music, quick on off for Subtitiles. I agree Sky has a better EPG which personally I dont use either way, ntls is too slow, Skys has lift music and you miss watch you watching so essentially both are crap! id ratehr the TV Times. Sky does have some exclusive Interactive but nothing im going to lose sleep over at present.

How do you know this, evidence please :D?

Very large amount........nonsense! UK Online say 4.4 million people have access to these speeds, even then its not garunteed past 2km from the exchange. I live 4km from one of these 'magical' exchanges and cant even recieve 1mb on ADSL because the line BT provide is crap and am unlikely to for the forseeable future........go figure! The day ADSL becomes market leading for me........is the day I eat my own hat!

At least with ntl if I live on a digital part of their network I will get Broadband at/near to the speeds specified not some second rate 512k service im paying 1Mb prices for!

However if you can get this mysterious product.........ie you live on the exchange or you can see it close by........go for it excellent price!!

ntl is definately viable for me.........its still cheaper than the BT/Sky Equivilent and better quality than I would be recieving. Hopefully it will become more viable when VOD is released as this means I can cancel Sky Movies as I always miss whatever I want to watch on there.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

They are still re-active though (following/copying TW), which surely means that TW are "market Leaders" when it comes to cable BB? :shrug:

Oh....that's ok then-that what "Market Leaders" means, some people get a proper/working direct equivalent to Sky, & some don't?
Also-are you referring to ntl's 'interactive' (EPG/TV Guide) or Sky's proper red button 8 screens on Sky News/multiple camera angles on Sky Sports etc interactive?

Important Question----->Do you get full 'Red Button' interactive on Sky News/Sports for example?

Because I have been told by people in ntl that would know. :)

http://www.ukonline.net/8000/

http://www.ukonline.net/8000/llu_exchangelist.php

That's a lot of home & a lot of exchanges. :)

Add to this Bulldogs already running deal with 4 meg DSL and all your phone line/phone calls costs all in for around £50.00, & you've got a fair few!

The other thing to remember, is that these companies that are unbundling the exchanges don't work on ntl's "Coming Soon" theory, when they say soon, they mean it!! :angel:

ntl are market followers, not leaders IMO, & I can't see/think of anything they have done to suggest otherwise? :shrug:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Does NTL offer the best product? Probably not
Is it still viable? absolutely. thousands of people are perfectly happy with a service that giove syou bog-standard tv,phone and broadband. just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean the whole network is like that...

It does bug me when people decide the whole network is awful and of no use at all, rather than look for a constructive solution.

Yes, it's viable. No, it's not the best. Shock horror, I nearly dropped my cornflakes.

Apols for sarcasm :D

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Unforetunatly, as Neil says, NTL are reacting to other companies, not being pro active.

Lets look at the upcoming service changes.
Speed increases

True, NTL has recently increased speeds, and will be doing so again in the near future. Telewest has had the new speeds for months now, and even ADSL offers some people 4M or 8 M (although they will only be available to a small percentage of users due to cable length limitations). The one major advantage that NTL offers is that they will be available to everyone, which neither Telewest nor the ADSL ISPs can promise.


PVR
NTL are apparently going to offer a Personal Video Recorder facility. V. Nice (and something I am looking forward to). We don't have any real info on it's facilities yet (hard drive size, ability to watch one channel & record another, extended program guide etc) , and, TBH, Sky + has been around for a couple of years now..

True Video On Demand
Again, this is a nice facility to have, but not, IMO, as good as a true PVR. But, Homechoice (and Kingston Cable I think) have been offering this service for years. In fact it was demonstrated by BT on Tommorrow's World over ten years ago. And, I believe it's not actually being offered by NTL, but another company using the NTL network. So, technically, NTL can claim they are offering VOD in the same way that BT can say they offer 8Meg ADSL..


Regarding Interactive, I personally don't use it, but I have a friend who developed a site for NTL Interactive for her degree project (it was a private site, and was never released). She researched the various systems, and found that in terms of facilities made available to the developer, NTL's interactive (on CR3 or equivalent) is equal to Sky's interactive. She also found NTL considerably more helpful than Sky. She wrote the same letter to NTL, Sky and Telewest. Sky said they could help, but it would cost a lot of money. Telewest didn't reply and NTL said they would help for free and sent her a complete CR3/Liberate development kit & emulator and gave her access to a special test server they have that's not on the main network. I do believe they also gave her extensive technical support.

My point in stating the above is that if the Interactive services provided are crap, I don't think it's entirely NTL's fault. Yes, the pace boxes are underpowered and should be replaced, but apart from that, I lay the blame for crap NTL interactive entirely at the feet of the broadcasters..

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

What about Telewest upping their speeds AFTER ntl this time round? Care to give your opinion on that?


Neil, you said that that interactive doesn't work, period. And it's not true, that's the point I was trying to make. I used the red button to vote on BB4. I also used the mutli screens for Tennis etc. Do I look lie the kind of girl that even wants to know if multi camera angles for Sky Sports in general??

Never looked TBH. :shrug:


Not good enough Neil.



Yes, I've seen the website for the 8 meg. But like I said before, why don't you show up all hte potential flaws of the deal, like you would with any ntl deal?

You can't compare Bulldog to ntl. The size of the company and the technology are completely different. You don;t have to like ntl Neil, but at least be fair when you compare - which you so are not. :rolleyes:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

No............

This however isnt ntls fault

Its Skys Fault for being anti competative molopolistic %£$$% and not providing equal services to all subscribers exclusive of platfrom.

ntl tried to get this and Sky tried to charge MORE despite wholesale costs being high already. Sureley if we dont get all of Sky Sports, wholesale costs should be much less!

Sky is again typically exploiting its position and OFCOMS lack of balls.

There is no technical reason why Sky Active isnt on ntl.

Other than a pitiful ploy by Sky to shift more dodgy boxes.

It was the same with Sky Sports Extra...........Cable Subscribers were paying/subsidising for the channel for a good year before it appeared on cable, as Sky new they could temp subscribers on to their platfrom.

Scabby Tactics.........but oh so typical of Sky its no surprise.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Not strictly true...........

On Demand Group who do Front row have invested some money along with Seachange International to help with the necessary Upgrades for VOD, this will be in return for a percentage of the profits made, but essentially its ntls network doing the work.

On Demand also helped set up Kingston and Homechoice VOD, but this is a much larger Scale they have 20000 customers between them............if that?!?

ntl are currently trialing BroadbandTV which can offer server based iTV applications far more compelling that Sky could ever offer, with integration of streaming video, sound, flash, shockwave possible without the limitatiosn of the current STB Coming into play.

IMO VOD is better than a PVR because you dont have to shell out for extra hardware or pay extra subs (which ntl may chose) for certain features unless you use them.

BT cant really claim anything to the 8Mb broadband as its not their equipment doing the job but Easynets............the only BT stuff involved is the shoddy line to your house which will probably be the downfall of the whole thing!!

Incidently didnt Bulldog have a lot of network issues recently due to bandwidth hogs, and a lot of people have been complaining about them?!?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Agreed-but if ntl were such "Market Leaders", they would have had this wrapped up by now surely? :shrug:

Not so I don't think you'll find.

How?-Do you get all the interactive feature that Sky Digital offers? Can you get a Sky + Equivalent?

Fair enough. :)

How does the fact that ntl don't offer what Sky do make them market leaders then? :confused:

As I said, it came from within ntl, & for that reason I can't/won't name names, sorry.

Not nonsense at all-4 million is a large amount by anyone's standards.


The fact that it's not available to you has no nearing on the fact that an 8 meg DSL product is is still market leading.

Same as ADSL though-just because you can get it doesn't mean it will be up to scratch does it?

We agree! :D

I think we've been down this road before, & there's little/no difference in the package prices if you have BT line/Sky & an ntl line & Family Pack (for example)

You wouldn't miss it with Sky +! But it's ok as that's probably not a "market leading" product is it? :rolleyes: :angel:

The original question was.....

And I genuinely don't believe they do (compared to Sky) based on my reasoning above.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Certainly :)

ntl's initial speed increase came as a knee jerk reaction to TW's original speed increase, they haven't led the market here, they've just taken TW's idea & made it faster-not market leading IMO. :)

But could you if you wanted to? (no)

:erm: No!

Perhaps you should try it. ;)

I though people were against naming ntl associates?
Whether you think it's good enough or not, I'm not gonna place those people's job's in jeopardy-you know as well as I do that ntl would probably sack them for disclosing confidential information, & that I am not prepared to do just to prove to you (anyone actually) that I know, sorry.

I thought I had-there are cureently exchanges that can't get it, but the 'coming soon' is a reality, not a figment of their imagination a la ntl.

But we are talking about "Market Leaders" here in this discussion, & Bulldog are exactly that. I think they were the 1st ISP to install their own hardware in BT's exchanges, & offer 2 meg DSL, when the other DSL ISPs were waiting from the nod from BT-Now that's market leading!

I don't agree-we are talking about market leading, & ntl are not that whatever way you look at it.

They followed TW's speeds increase, their DTV doesn't offer the functionality that Sky's does, they have only just got around to introducing Spam filters on their mail servers (when most other ISPs have had them for yonks), their email 'service' has been poor (to say the least!) for the best part of 18 months, their webspace package is poor compared to what most other ISPs offer (scripts etc)

That's not a market leader, & not a company that offers a viable product anymore-most other providsers offer far more for your money IMO.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Upgrades take time and money especially when hardwares involved.........hopefully with the next batch of upgrades all the PACE STBs running broadband will be going. Im sure they are in the process of wrapping it up but nothing happens over night, having a larger network makes upgrading a more lengthy process.

Where will I find?? :D

I get most of the Interactive features 'that are worthwhile' that Skys monopoly allows us to have ie the BBCi and Voting etc. I can get a Sky+ equivilent in TIVO or a DVD R which IMO is much better because it not proprietry kit that becomes useless should you swap providers.

How does the fact that Sky dont offer some of the basic usability features ntl do make them market leaders?? IMO they are different methods of getting essentially the same thing NEITHER is a market leader, preference is down to opinion.

I will wait and see what happens regarding speeds, but 2Mb is enough for me for now anyway!

4 million out of 24 million homes in the UK is 17% ish. Not that great ntl passes about 8 million homes, Telewest about 4million so 12 million UK Homes passed by Cable with speeds of 3Mb opposed to 4 million who 'might' get 8Mb.

Its not market leading if some people cant get it though is it? It is to those that can and not to those that cant IMO its not market leading to me because it would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Its like me saying I offer a 10mb Internet Connection but only in my house.........does that make me market leading? :shrug:

Sky+ isnt market leading to me.........mainly because TiVO was there first, TiVO is not proprietry kit. Sky+ would require me to have Sky.

I genuinely believe they do offer a viable, I get the same product at a cheaper price for TV and Phone would cost £50.50 with BT/Sky £49.50 with ntl. faster speeds and genrally very reliable 1 outage in year.

2mb broadband for £24.99 anyone?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

How about the fact that getting 8meg is entirely dependant on the quality of your BT line, and that some punters may only get 4 or 6 meg for the same money? Is that not a bit off? Or is it OK just because it's not ntl?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

they followed TW early this year in upping speeds but now they are leading and TW are following.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Well Telewest took ntls idea of making 128k faster or 512k to 600k a few years back then........what a crazy excuse just admit ntl were copied by Telewest last time round.

Coming soon is not a reality for some BT exchanges, it is a figment of imagination BT have been dragging their feet over enabling ADSL exchanges for years, they know some parts of the network cant cope even after an exchange is enabled and dont have plans to resolve these problems.

So is introducing speeds of 1Mb for £17.99 2Mb for £24.99 accross the network for every subscriber who wants it.

Thats pureley opinion.

TW followed ntl age old speed increases, Their DTV does offer the functionality (usability) not features (like all Interactive thanks to Sky monopolistic behavious and OFCOMS lack of balls) infact ntl offer some functionality far better than Sky as mentioned earlier. Which 'all ISPs' Spam filter I know BT dont or Didnt, I had far more crap from my BT closed world account than ntl, 50mb of webspace for free not bad........I dont know of many ISPs that give scripting space for free its a premium product. E-mail again.........its certainally no worse than BT closed world or Connect.

Given my £74.49

Suggest another way I can get

Cheaper line rental
Full DTV Package Sports Movies
2Mb Broadband

Offer me MORE than that for my money.........looks viable to me.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

My only comment on all of this is the same question I have asked many times but not had a satisfactory answer to.

Earlier this year, Telewest announced a speed increase, ntl followed suit, and were accused of copying them. Fair enough. I'll accept that for the sake of argument.

ntl have now announced a speed increase, and this time Telewest followed suit. Yet again I have been told that ntl are simply copying Telewest. My question, in two parts, is: Why is the exact same situation viewed entirely differently this time round, and how can ntl have been copying Telewest BOTH times?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

And surely those who take that view will accept Telewest Speed Increases earlier this year were copying Speed Increases ntl introduced on the 512k and 128k services before hand :rolleyes:

And the 8Mb service is just and ADSL providers 'kneejerk reaction' to the cable speed increases! With no actual garuntee that 'anyone' will actually recieve the full speed as they quote 'UK Online will allow the user to connect to the service at the maximum speed available to their line'

Mmm I read into that.........you wont recieve the speed unless you live on/next to the exchange. The same as BT Claim people within 5km of the exchange can recieve upto 2Mb yet many on my street 4km from the exchange cannot recieve 1Mb ADSL!

Terrible :D

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

OK. So On Demand have paid for upgrades for VOD. This is different to LLU how exactly? You say NTL's network is doing the work. Up to a point, so is BT's when providing ADSL (even LLU ADSL).

I have read about these trials. I can't find a lot of technical information, which is a shame because it looks quite interesting. However, the facilities you mention CAN be quite processor intensive unless you have dedicated hardware to use them. Having said that, if the compression system used for streaming is MPEG 2, then the boxes do have hardware that can be used to decompress that.

Anyway, you totally missed the point of my bit about Interactive. My point was that NTL's current interactive, from a developer's point of view, offers everything Sky's does, but the broadcasters have not implemented it. So, if there is any problem with lack of facilities on NTL interactive, that's entirely the fault of the broadcaster.

I would have to disagree there. VOD is better assuming you like popular programs. If you want to watch something that is less popular (maybe something on the local channel, or one of the more specialist channel), it's entirely possible that VOD will not offer what you want. In this case, PVR is superior.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but...

I have Tivo. There are two MAJOR areas where Sky + improves on an NTL + Tivo System.

1) Picture quality. Sky + does not decode/reencode the signal. With Tivo, the fact the the NTL box decodes the signal, then Tivo re-encodes it introduces a quality loss. With the Tivo on Best quality, it is acceptable, but there are compression artifacts noticable on some programs (particularly in areas that are very dark, but not quite black). This happens even with good quality cabling. With Sky +, because there is no decode/re-encoding, you don't get this problem.

2) Recording one channel and watching another. Unless I pay NTL an extra £15 a month (I think) and get another STB (which would make the wiring around my TV even more of a nightmare than it already is), I cannot watch one channel and record another. This, on top of the £15 a month Tivo charge would mean I am paying £30 a month to emulate a facilty that with Sky + would cost me half that.. That's assuming I don't want to record two programmes (which Sky+ with the new software can do out of the box)

anyway, back to the point. No, Sky were not the first to do a PVR (and in some ways, the Tivo is superior, season passes for example). They are the first company to do an entirely digital PVR (no conversion to analogue signals until the viewer watches a programme), the first to offer a PVR that can record one programme while watching another, and the first to offer a PVR that can record two programmes though. In that sense, they ARE the market leaders.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

As far as I know the Equipment (DSLAM etc) in the exchanges is owned by other ISPs and not BT, the only part of an LLU Broadband Connection that is BTs is the line.

I do agree with what you say regarding Interactive entirely true, having worked in iTV technically there is nothing that cant be done on the ntl platform. Platform operators decide not to implement a Liberate Version, this is perhaps where some form of cross compatible iTV application would be useful.

Each persons view of a product or service is down to opinion really, Sky+ would suit me because it locks you to Sky which is something I dont want, which effectively means it is a £149 waste of money should I leave Sky.

With TiVO or a DVDR Its not proprietry kit, so I can used it with Sky, DTT or Cable

With VOD I only get it while I subscribe, or when I order it doesnt have associated costs for equipment I might not use in the future.

Hopefully a Cable PVR will be rented........as buying it would again be pointless incase you moved somewhere else.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Looks like is very different to 'can and do' I was told It looks like i could get ADSL but when it came to providing that service it wasnt possible it took BT 3 months to tell me that and Pipex twice that time to refund me for the cost of the Modem and registration charges.

and if Looks like is what impresses people NTL's Cable Network can provide speeds far in excess of 8mb down and thats while its still set at 64QAM and take note the network is able to be switched to 128 or even 256QAM very easily.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

IIRC Cable and Wireless were talking about launching a 10 Meg service two years before they were taken over. I read a press release at the time that said if they persuaded enough people to switch from analogue to digital TV, they could increase the speed more than that.

Admittedly, that was using a non-standard system, but it shows that cable can go much higher!

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Its not a lot of home's when you look how many homes are outside that 2 km :)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Simple answer mark.

The same thing that has been going on since this last lot of upgrades have been released. Its NTL and they can do nothing right. Just remember that each time you read a answer on here.

DAMMED IF WE DO AND DAMMED IF WE DONT :mad:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

:clap: Can somerone with an ounce of common sense and unbiased judgement please greenie rep BIll for me?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Sure :)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

hold yer horses - we're not all that cynical!


anyway back to the original question - do they offer a viable product... YES! get yourself on broadband and enjoy a superior product.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Fully agree not all are :)

But there are some that are :)

That statement was aimed at those that are, They know who they are :)

Sorry to go :notopic:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

So the upgrades that we have announced which you say are a figment of NTL's imagination, and are coming soon for NTL,
There is a announcement of a 8 meg upgrade for adsl users but is fact if it's a ADSL provider


Is that how I should read your comment or have I got it completely wrong


Now if I am wrong I stand corrected if I am right how can this be ok for them and not for NTL





:rolleyes:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

You're not 'wrong' Bill, it's just that I know that (still) not all areas have received the upgrade, that's the point I was making.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Neil

And not all Exchanges have been enabled so Coming soon for them as well is it. Sorry i mean for those 2km or less ;) .

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Must be a slow day when all we can debate is COMING SOON :LOL:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Not all areas will recieve 8Mb ADSL :shrug: in fact only 4.4 million 'may' be able to! Not all can even recieve any ADSL :shrug:

ADSL has probably got a worse record of 'coming soon' than ntl ever has........I remember in 1997 the original tests, in 2000 it had still barely got of the ground in 2002 not much had changed, its only the past 2 years subscribers have grown people have demanded it and BT have pulled their fingers out!

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

<Michael Winner Voice>Calm down dear-I was referring to the ntl speed increases that they announced in April this year. :rolleyes: ;) </Michael Winner Voice>

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...peed-increases

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

What has who got it first and who are market leaders got to do with anything? If we just look at broadband then as long as I get good uptime, which I do with NTL, virtually 100%, and a service fast enough to do the things I want with it then I am happy. If I am given a speed increase which means that I get some things done quicker then it's welcome news.I am not bothered that TW were a few weeks ahead of NTL or vice versa, I am only interested in what NTL, my BB supplier, are giving me and nobody else is giving anything so much faster, more reliable and cheaper to tempt me to change.

What companies give and what they are capeable of giving are two very different subjects. NTL could, I am sure, give 8 or 10 Mb and it would work for most customers, however far they were from the headend. The same cannot be said for ADSL. Why don't NTL give those speeds? Why should they? Who needs them other than the small percentage who want to download the internet and have it done yesterday. NTL are really only competing with ADSL and have some excellent packages at excellent prices. Do they want to market a product designed to attract the kind of customer that they do not want for the sake of being able to say they are market leaders?

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

:clap: :clap:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

ok just to sum this all up -

1st of all the 8mb connections will need to go through fibre optic cable, which bt are going to invest in laying down across the UK. Think about how long its taken NTL to install their network - thats how long it will take BT. For those that know, ADSL cant sustain a clear channel over a telephone line as the signal cant hold through the wiring.

2nd of all, NTL can match that speed, but dont need to just yet and cant as its not competitive business for other companies.

3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.

4th of all, we still dont know what UPLOAD speeds will be in use. This is an important factor for gamers (which is one of the most important type customers out there). Both NTL and BT have a big problem when the power companies come, as well as all the ISP's out there that deal with their customers.

My brother works for BT retail (the company that provides ADSL capabilities to ISP's such as AOL) and says they are all very concerned about power companies because at the moment, UK technology evolves around ADSL and cable internet. and setting up an SDSL server would cost the company more than they would make from it.

and I know NTL cant sustain a high upload speed compared to SDSL.

In regards to the Digital TV.

The channels are owned by sky and NTL make no profit from this service.

with the telephone service, We are a good service, but when problems arise (just like every company out there) it can take time to be resolved, especially when we are in the middle of a huge upgrade on our systems.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

All i will say on this subject is this. I know that all is not perfect within ntl, in fact there is quite a bit wrong, that's well known and ackowledged.

However, forget for a moment who anyone works for. I have, in my house, all three ntl services. TV, telephone and broadband. They never, and I'll repeat that, never, let me down. The quality of the product is well within what one would expect from such a service. the full price of that service is one I would always be happy to pay.

(I do feel that digital TV GENERALLY...be it Sky, ntl or Telewest...is slightly overpriced these days, mainly due to the stranglehold on the market Sky has, but that's for another thread).

If the service was rubbish in any way I simply wouldn't use it. I need services I can rely on. That's the long and the short of it. I am not pretending there aren't issues in some areas and/or with some customers, however, that's the picture as I see it from a customer's point of view and whilst I certainly wouldn't say all is rosy at ntl, I certainly wouldn't rate them as badly as some on here do.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Hi Steven, welcome.

Yes it can and no BT won't need fibre, my phone line will do 8Mbit down 800k up. Just to reach it out farther it'll require fibre in the loop.

Bluntly, no we can't. No cable company ntl's size has tried. Only one operator I know of has made 10Mbit remotely successful. Cogeco who I formerly praised are having some, erm, bandwidth issues.

Not a chance. SSE have all but abandoned this technology, having managed the princely sum of about 80 customers in Winchester and Stonehaven.

A 2Mbit ADSL line will almost certainly sustain an upstream of 512k.

Strange, as BT Retail are only responsible for the BT Broadband range, and want to escape from BT Wholesale, who are the people who actually sell the network capacity, as it's costing them too much.

Power companies apart from SSE have done nothing in this regard, and with ADSL being so widespread there's no point, too many technical issues. Stonehaven and Winchester are still just experiments, a rollout commercially requires a lot of interest in a small area, and is completely pointless because to be honest a wireless antenna stuck on top of a substation would do a far better job, and be cheaper to the power company as well as having a longer range.

Actually when going up in speeds we could go to 1MBit upload, however market forces don't require it.

Don't get me wrong though, while BT's copper network can do 8Mbit their ATM network it's built around would cry ;)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Actually, further to Ignition's post above, I thought that BB through powerlines was only able to sustain high speeds if you are a) close to the local substation (by close, I mean within a mile) and b) on a substation with few users.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Actually the range to local 'substation' or wherever the signal is injected is a couple of hundred metres. Power lines are an appauling compromise. They are neither balanced, insulated, nor in any way remotely suited to carrying data. Compare this to hybrid fibre coax network for speed, and twisted pair for balanced signal.

With DSL and cable modem covering virtually 100% by end of next year there's absolutely no incentive for a power company to invest. Competition too strong, not enough areas to cover.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Wrong. ADSL is capable of approx 8meg down, 768k up, to around 2km line length (depends on quality). And if you've looked at the 21CN information, you'd realise that they were replacing the CORE network, and only trialling fibre delivery. For information, ADSL was trialled as far back as 1997, possibly even further. Look how long that took to reach the market.

8mbps ADSL is available via LLU NOW.

As above, it can do 8mbps out to 2km. Line loss and noise are a factor, but are just as much of a factor in coaxial or wireless networks. Other forms of DSL can already do over 50mbps out to this distance.

NTL would have trouble matching it as the network stands. DOCSIS doesn't handle contention very well, especially not on the upstream path. Its technically possible, but would not be very robust without Layer 4-7 QoS and throttling.

Total b0110cks. Powerline suffers worse noise issues than BT's twisted pair copper. You have to be within 500metres of your substation to get those speeds. Powerline signals CANNOT pass a transformer, it is physically impossible. You have to provide fibre to the substation, at massive cost. Even more cost where the transformer is on a pole outside your house (not too uncommon, even just a few miles outside of cities).

Don't forget - the current powerline systems actually use SDSL deployed over copper leased lines provided by BT!!

Oh, and its a shared loop like NTL's system. NTL can resegment to remove problem contention though... I'd like to see resegmentation of the power network... massive engineering works, and prolonged power outages... no thanks...

Oh, and don't get me started on interference.

Cut the cr@p will you. BT Retail only sell BT Broadband, and now BT Yahoo. BT Wholesale provide services to other ISPs.

"SDSL Server" ??? Do you mean a service? Servers don't provide connections - they provide content (or network services such as DNS). Most DSLAMs that have been installed in the last year are capable of delivering SDSL and VDSL with minimal configuration change. Just BT's copper can't cope with it.

You might want to read today's OFCOM report - it makes interesting reading.

Perhaps you might want to go and familiarise yourself with some radio frequency knowledge (RF) before you go spurting off here again. Hint, look up modulation, especially QAM, and QPSK.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

As payback for your rather harsh smackdown, no! No form of DSL does 50Mbps at 2km, 200 metres maybe :p:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Actually, I was being generous and assuming no sources of interferance, and a cable in perfect condition..

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

I would have thought 200 millimeters would be closer :D

Certainally the theoretical maximum of ADSL in this country at present is 8Mbs and that isnt garunteed. Until major work is done thats the lot.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

One point several people here appear to be missing.

Yes, ADSL can theoretically go up to 8 Meg assuming the exchange has been unbundled and you have a good connection to it that is less than 2Km long. Yes, Power lines can carry 2 Meg Up & down, assuming there are few people attached to your connection point, and you live within 200 metres of it.

However, these technologies can only deliver the high speeds to a few people.

NTL are making the increased broadband speeds available to EVERYONE who can get broadband, not just those near an unbundled exchange or their local power substation.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

200 Metres wasn't a bad guess although you where 100M's out :)

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Not really, according to the IEC 52Mbps downstream and 6Mbps upstream has a theoretical maximum loop length of 1,000ft. when compensating also for the thicker guage cable that this figure is based on you're left with a range around the 200M mark, not to mention this takes no account of cross talk with other twisted pairs carrying ADSL, VDSL, IDSL or SHDSL, nor environmental impairments, so if anything 200m is about right or optimistic :)

Type asymmetric
Max Loop Length (kft @ 26 guage cable) 1
Downstream 52Mbps
Upstream 6 Mbps

More info: http://www.iec.org/online/tutorials/vdsl/topic05.html

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

BB down power lines (PLT) has been one of my pet hates that I have gone on about in threads before. I understand they recently turned off one of their pylon routes that was carrying B on the trial and the RF noise floor in the HF spectrum reduced by around 30dB. (figure from memory of reading independant article)

I seem to remember having 99.9% of the users on this forum against my views when I rubbished the technology because of it's unscreened cables and poor balance at HF frequencies. Balanced networks carrying HF need suitable designed cables to ensure balance is maintained to reduce Ingress/Egress.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Indeed, we could all ask Chris T when ADSL will be coming soon to his non cabled new property. I believe the answer currently is never, I think he would be happy with 512k BB, but cannot even get that without a satelite.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

not EVERYONE - only people lucky enough to be in an NTL area.

everyone else will be left in the dark ages of broadband! either stuck with dial up or slow ADSL connections! :p:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Maybe I should have been more specific when I said "NTL are making the increased broadband speeds available to EVERYONE who can get broadband", maybe I should have said "NTL Broadband (not ADSL)"..

Anyway, my point was that the companies relying on LLU may NOT be able to offer increased speeds to all their customers as they may not be able to afford to unbundle all the ADSL exchanges their customers are on. For instance, in unbundled areas Bulldog offers 4Meg connections. Everywhere is is limited to 2 Meg. Even assuming you live in an unbundled area, there is a chance your line won't take the increased speeds.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

I always said Power line BB was a non-starter..

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

yup indeed - there will be cherry picking. probably exchanges with a high number of lines in densely populated areas will be the priority.

that's right and if bulldog have unbundled an exchange that might put off another unbundler from doing that exchange. which might be very annoying if you're after 8meg from ukonline but buldog only do upto 4meg. and then as you say... only those near to the exchange will get the high speeds (until the technology has another breakthrough).

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

if ADSL can handle 8mb down why dont bt do it for those that live near enough (since I live about 200 metres away.)

and yeah I got BT Retail mixed up with BT Wholesale :p my bad.

And I havent followed up on internet technology since they were looking into BPL.

Just thought I should clear that up :blush: :shrug: :drunk: :Peaceman: :sorry: oops:

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Already answered I think.

Re: Does ntl offer a viable product any more?
 

Ok then, you are Mr 0.1% :D :angel:

I worked on the old Rediffusion cable networks, and exactly the same principles applied. They were using 2.9 to 8.9MHz for modulated video signals, the cable had to be specially manufactured, I think the later cable was made specially by a company in Sweden (name escapes me now something like Dansk?)

The network engineers used to have meters to go around and measure not only the signal levels, but cable balance as well. It must also be considered that this was a network designed specifically for HF signals not one for 50Hz.

BB down powerlines has been banned in a few countries, specifically Japan being one I mentioned in an earlier thread. Whilst at ntl I was involved in a few trials to measure egress from HDSL, ADSL signals at ntl cabinets, the ntl cabinets were just about inside the very highly set RA spec. Apparently the RA had conducted a lot of tests on BT's cabinets and they were not happy with the results at that time.

BB/PLT should be buried, I never understood how they were allowed to trial the system using some allocations used by military and aviation.