Yasser Arafat 'very sick'
 

man whan he dies the Palestinians are going to have a civil war after all
mr Arafat holds the hole thing together


ARAFAT 'VERY SICK'
A team of emergency doctors has been rushed to the bedside of ailing Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

A Palestinian cabinet official said Arafat is "very, very sick", as leading officials were summoned to his West Bank headquarters.

Palestinian security services have been put on alert following the news.

A team of doctors was tonight sent to his Ramallah compound in the West Bank tonight to examine Arafat, 75, who has been suffering from a lengthy bout of flu.

Israeli radio reported that the he had lost consciousness, a report denied by Palestinian officials who insist his conditions is "stable".

It has also been reported that Arafat has been given permission by Israel to leave his compound to seek hospital treatment. He has been under virtual house arrest for three years.

Arafat had an exploratory operation earlier this week after suffering stomach pains and vomiting.

Doctors carried out an endoscopy, an investigative procedure in which a small scope is inserted into the body.

Israel had given permission for Arafat to leave his compound for the treatment, but he refused.

Arafat's foreign minister, Nabil Shaath, said this week that the leader was in pain because of serious intestinal flu but doctors flown in earlier this week from Egypt and Tunisia expected him to recover.

Questions about Arafat's health have raised Palestinian fears of a bloody succession struggle after his death. He has never picked a successor.

Source : Sky News

Arafat dead?
 

Reuters reporting arafat has died...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=6717761

Actually, clinically dead, only kept alive by machines. Although it's being denied by the hospital :confused:

That link also seems to have disspeared :S

Re: Arafat dead?
 

The news is very contradictory at the moment. The hospital he is in are still denying it.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3980903.stm

I can see things getting even worse if he is. :td:

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Last I heard he was in a coma.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

link is still there?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

That was being denied as well....

Re: Arafat dead?
 

funny that reuters claim he is dead and 28 minutes later they claim he is alive and have both stories on the site

Re: Arafat dead?
 

That cant be true, they would claim they couldnt find a brain

Re: Arafat dead?
 

OMG! The brown stuff isn't half going to hit the fan!

At least any repercussions will be aimed at the French, so it's not ALL bad :devsmoke:

Re: Arafat dead?
 

:confused:

Re: Arafat dead?
 

All we need is Sharon to follow suit and the world might start to become a better place....oh and Bush, Blair, Mugabe, Kim Jong Il....etc etc etc

Re: Arafat dead?
 

As Arafat has not seen fit to pick a successor I'm very much afraid of what and whom comes after him.We could end up with MORE of a bloodbath than we have had so far. :(

Re: Arafat dead?
 

The French have pretty good relations with the Palestinians, which is why they offered to take Arafat in the first place.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

In a 'reversible coma'.......whatever that is

Re: Arafat dead?
 

It been a long time coming, most of my ppl have been waiting for a LONG time for this to happen. I can't say anything good about that terrorist.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Are you Jewish, then?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I would say most Palestinians feel the same way about Ariel Sharon.

Terrorism/state sponsored killing in any form can't be excused.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

No, an Israeli and yes there a difference :D, my mother is not Jewish. And I like Sharon, he a hardliner.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I think this refers to the fact that a lot of people on ITUs are in a drug induced state of coma. Anaesthetised if you like. So that their bodily functions can be better controlled.

I imagine the brain dead confusion has arisen because of this and that he has been reported to have had a "brain scan". One may jump to the conclusion that this is a brain stem test although it could be a number of things. CT, MRI etc etc

Re: Arafat dead?
 

So is Bush. For hardliner, these days, I read terrorist. Sharon's form of terrorism is state sponsored, or rather sponsored by the USA.

Eyes for eyes is not the answer, sensible discussion is. If Sharon will not even talk to the opposite side then what possible hope for peace can there be? And coming out with offensive comments like "Arafat will never be buried in Jerusalem" on serves to prove what a moron the guy is.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Mate, Would u wanna talk to a double dealing two faced terrorist like Arafat when he says go ahead with a suicide bomb and then when it does happen, he just condemns it as a flippant remark?

Reminds me of Gerry Adams really and I don't trust that bloke as far as I can throw him either. Nor Martin McGuinness. AND when a bloke that the Palestinians put up for negotiations, he a puppet with the corrupt legion behind him telling him what to do which was sweet FA!

Funny thing is I hate Bush with a passion but he good for the middle east. I hate Blair too but there no alternative. See it all messed this politics rubbish. Sure suicide bombers families really shouldn't face their houses being destroyed but what u want us to do ? Stand idly ? No... withdrawing completely from Gaza and Westbank will be the right thing to do cos it gives them less reasons to keep attacking us. I want us out of there just like Lebanon. And the Lebanon border is rather quiet these days with only the odd missile here and there.

And I rather that the Palestinians stop wasting the EU aids of several hundreds of million of dollars in weapons and hidey hidey cosy cosy banks in other countries and spend it on the ppl. Building new houses/business/infrastructure of the "country" will do more for the peace process than any crappy "agreements".

Well I know from previous arguments I am in the minority here so I'll keep out of it from now.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Don't get me wrong, I think Arafat is as bas as Sharon - and therin lies the problem.

The difference is that Sharon kills Palestinians as an act of government, and the Palestinians are killing Isrealis "unofficially". I don't see any difference between the two, they are equally abhorrent and as long as one keeps up with their current level of action, the other will too. This is not the road to peace is it?

Can you explain why you believe this please? Becuase he continues to fund Isreal's "defence" strategy?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I wasn't going to say it as I thought it might be inflammatory, but now someone else has, I might as well. I hope Arafat dies, and soon. If people can wish Bush dead, then I can certainly wish Arafat dead, who actually IS a terrorist.

I can only hope he is replaced by someone who does actually want peace, and will work for it.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Andygrif,

John Kerry or Bush on strong issues ? there isn't much choice when it came down to it. John Kerry wasn't as sure on issues and Bush is however misguided it is. Under John Kerry I think he would be a weak president overseas. Now if Democrats had a good candidate then I would have preferred that person.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Ah you mean someone who WILL bend to Israel's will ....

Re: Arafat dead?
 

No, but someone who will not condone strapping bombs to kids and letting them blow up Israelis.

Someone who'll instead of backing, financing and empowering groups like Hamas, outlaw them. Once that happens some reasonable dialogue can happen. You can just tell the west that you don't condone terrorists, then turn around when they are gone and support them. I support Palestine's right to exist, but I won't support terrorists.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

:LOL: heh I have to laugh, so u think cos he allowed everything in the past to happen cos he refused to bend to Israel's will ? or perhaps.... he is a Terrorist ??? jeez......ok i know every prime minster or president isn't totally straight and does a bit of dealing here and there but Arafat wasn't a good stateman at all. He was frightened of his own people and didn't want to agree to ANYTHING cos he'd be seen as weak and that was a major point of not being able to get a settled area.

However Sharon is withdrawing unilaterally and not everyone agrees with it because it looks like we're conceding vitally important land but I myself agree it should be done. Looks to me someone is willing to do something about it.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Bifta: I admit I am going out on a limb here, because "The Troubles" isn't my strong point, so I might be completely wrong.

But wasn't the Provos (provisional IRA/real IRA) which I am guessing most percieved as a terrorist group (they imported arms from Libya didn't they?) did more harm than good to the peace protest?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

No, Sinn Fein were perfectly willing to (and did) engage in peace talks, if they wanted to do harm to the peace protest then surely calling a ceasefire 6 years ago wouldn't have been the smartest plan?

(and they imported arms from Scotland, Wales, Libya, Canada, USA and various other places)

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Sorry, should've been more careful with my words, I know there's a difference ;)

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with what you're saying about Arafat. I'll find it hard to miss him. He has been fatally over-playing his hand for 15 years now and the Palestinians need to find themselves a national identity that is not defined by a self-appointed President whose only qualifications are in blowing people up. He has been a liability to the Palestinian cause ever since he sided with Saddam Hussein during Gulf War I - possibly the stupidest thing I have ever seen a so-called leader do, ever.

The above, incidentally, does not sum up my opinion on the whole Arab/Israeli situation. I just really don't like Yasser Arafat.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Anyone got statistics of the number of deliberate IDF attacks against civilians ordered by the Israli goverment against attacks ordered by the Israili goverment against militants?
And also the same of the palestinians (attacks against civilians against attacks against military)
I wonder which chunk of those pie charts would be the biggest?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Exactly my point, Arafat isn't and hasn't been good for the whole middle eastern and as a person, he will not be missed and i won't exactly be firing in the air celebrating with my gun as it some ppl's wont but I'll have a quiet satisfaction.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Don't get me wrong, I know Sharon's principal qualification for the job is blowing people up too ... just trying to stay on topic for once, and the topic is the imminent demise of a man the Palestinians will be better off without, IMHO. The proof of the pudding is the mess they are going to be in in the short term, seeing as he has made no arrangements for his succession. What kind of leader runs the show like that? An egotist and a megalomaniac is who, not someone who genuinely wants to nurture his people and build his nation.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Sharon (evil, zionist, imperialist, blah blah blah) trying to pull Israeli settlers out of the West Bank and Gaza, even against their wishes? And even won approval for it in the (zionist, evil, child-eating, blah blah blah) parliment?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

If (when) Arafat dies, it could either be good or bad....

Arafat was making some noises towards peace (very quietly, but at least he was less vocal in support of siuicide bombers), and the situation seems (to someone who only watches the news) to be improving.
(This may not be the case, as experience has taught me that the news only reports a small percentage of the violence for fear of worrying us poor punters :afire: )

As he has left no official successor, there could be a power struggle, and that could lead to Hamas having more power than they have at the moment (remember that Hamas and the PLO are not talking to each other these days), and a return to the days of unofficial war.
On the other hand, a more moderate leader could come to power and finally start talking to this Israelis and working towards a real peace.

This situation is neither clear, nor simple... Israel has targeted civilians in retaliation, and also in error. The palestinians have targeted civilians regularly.
The palestinians will tell you they are fighting to get their land and identity back from an oppressive neighbour.
The Israelis will say that they are fighting terrorists and defending their right to exist.

There will be no simple and quick solution to this, as it is far too ingrained on the psyche of both nations (rather like the hatred between Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland- it has taken a long time to get to where we are today) and there are too many "war crimes" on both sides to allow for an instant end.

Even when (if) a peace is achieved, there will be suspicion and mistrust, as well as the odd die hard who cannot give up the fight...

I hope that this leads to peace, as I have seen enough of war to want peace wherever possible, but I think that this will take a long time to happen, and will cost the lives of too many innocent people.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Yes, and the political analysts reckon it's because otherwise he'll be in charge of a country where the israeli population is smaller than the palestinian population.
Split off an area full of palestinians and pull the israelis back and the problem's sorted.
Unfortunately, you have the extremists who don't want to leave, being backed up by generally young americans.
If they start shooting at the IDF when the settlements are being dismantaled you could have a civil war (please don't do it in the next couple of weeks while I'm over there!)

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Well whatever anyone might say and I'm the last to defend any form of terrorism at least Sein Fein never used suicide bombers. :erm:

I have no time for any form of terrorism but it does not excuse Sharon and his ilk from the way in which they have pushed at the situation for years.Experience has taught everyone else that yes you say no firmly to terrorists but you do not then turn around and use harsher,more violent ways of dealing with the situation BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK AND WILL JUST EXACBERATE A SITUATION FURTHER.

Both sides are guilty of not wanting or appearing to want to sort the postion out at all.Blood and vengeance seem to be the order of the day,not conciliation.

And in the middle of all this two generations of the two sides are growing up learning to hate even more and any moderate voices are just ignored.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Well I see where you're coming from, but I still don't see how you can think that Bush is "good for the Middle East".

I agree Kerry was not the strongest candidate, but he was a popular choice for the very reason you say he wouldn't be strong. Bush's foreign policy is very favourable to Isreal, but that's about where the list ends...unless you class Hawaii as foreign. ;)

Let's be adult about this. Both Arafat and Sharon are megalomaniacal individuals. The one thing Arafat has done is get pretty much the whole of Middle East "on-side" by playing the victim.

The one thing Sharon has done is alienate himself from the majority of the civilized world.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Just heard that Israel may change it's policy on censorship of terrorist bombings and actually show the world how bad each attack actually is.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Where ?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

From a friend of mine in Tel Aviv, she happened to call me around 5pm as I'm off out there later this month

Re: Arafat dead?
 

The nice thing about Arafat was that he's gone through the classic terrorist-to-statesman process - often happens to terrorists who don't get killed - the hot-headedness goes and the realisation dawns that talking is the only thing that actually works (of course what you want to do is find the talking ones earlier). At this point you can get somewhere, presuming that some idiot doesn't murder the person you're talking to, as happened to Yitzhak Rabin (a conservative right wing Israeli killed him, remember).

Remember that 'we don't talk to terrorists' only applies for a given value of 'terrorist'.

Bush is good for the Middle East if what you think the Middle East needs is more fundamentalists trying to bring about Armageddon.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

For my views on the subject read littlejohns column in the Sun today.

Everyhting else I feel about it is unprintable, and thats from Both sides Israel and palestine, they are both as bad as each other.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Why, do you ghost-write for the bigoted nerk?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

U lucky boy!! I wanna visit Israel to see my relatives but i haven't got round to it for 4 years.....Maybe next year.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Flights are only about £250 in November with El Al (booked through lastminute.com).
Last time they x-rayed my shoes, but when a beautiful woman asks you to take your shoes off for that, how can you complain? :naughty:
Looking forward to seeing the new airport too, and going to take one of my MCSE exams out there as they're only $30 :D

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Just heard from a muslim colleague of mine that he's been denied entry to Israel again.
We told him he should have gone to the embassy first to make sure everything would be ok because of the trouble he had before, but he wouldn't listen

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Did they say why?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I don't have all the details but the phrase "prove you're not a terrorist" apparently was said.
We're not sure why he was originally denied access last year when he tried to get in from Jordan, depends how he answered their questions (he can come across as a bit arrogant). Of course I think they denied him access back then because his passport photo made him look like Jesus and they weren't too keen on him either *grin*
In all seriousness though, he should have contacted the Israeli embassy here to sort things out, because the border guard who blocked him would have recorded his passport number and marked it as "entrance denied"
If he had flown El Al then he'd probably have been turned back at Heathrow or have been able to sort it out with them there and then.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I have a link to a movie (12MB WMV) showing the aftermath of some bombings.
I will not post it in forum as it is certainly not something that should be taken light heartedly or be seen by anyone under 18 (think the beach landing in saving private ryan)

As with saving private ryan, after seeing that no one could say war is glorious, after seeing this no one can say suicide bombers have a legitimate reason.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Is it called: "doribenisraelkario/Three Days In Israel"? A friend of mine just sent it to me, very moving... I would like to point out it isn't a snuff film, it is a documentry trying to make point.

It has become so numbing and sanitised now. When we hear of a suicide bombing, we shrug it off almost. Can't image what it is like to be there...

I'm really hoping nothing happens while you are there mate.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Yes, that is the one.
As I said to my friend tonight, the most we see on the news is a bloodied survivor being rushed into an ambulance and then any sanitised burnt out wrecks taken much later.
We were so lucky that the IRA would phone up and give warnings before their bombs.

I'm sure I'll be fine, the wall is helping (remember, a lot of Israelis are from Berlin so they know how awful the wall can be), just wish it had been built along the Israel border line so wouldn't be causing so much extra trouble.
Over there after an attack you get a few days of people not going out, then things return to normal. Like us, they don't let it stop them going out their daily business.

I just hope that if Arafat dies or doesn't, they realise that peace cannot be found through deliberately killing civilians.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Um - no, they didn't - this was the exception. Most IRA bombings were totally unwarned.

Are a lot of Israelis from Berlin? A lot are from Russia, but Germany? In the German Jewish side of my family a lot emigrated to the UK and US and the rest were murdered.

And I'm not sure what's so much better about killing civilians with helicopters rather than suicide bombs.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

The majority of IRA bombings I know about had warnings.
No suicide bombings have had warnings. They also often have secondary bombs designed to go off shortly afterwards killing those who have gone to help any survivors of the first bomb.

After WW2, many Jews frome Western Europe returned to their countries of origin (the majority from Eastern Europe did not because of the continued anti-semetism and communism present in their home countries).
This included many who returned to Berlin who then later, or their children later emigrated to Israel. You also have those who fled the Nazi's from Berlin to the UK and the USA who then went to Israel.
That's one of the amazing things about Israel, on the jewish side alone you have about 84 different country backgrounds living together, and then there's the christians and muslims. No other country has so much human diversity living in peace with each other.

Yes that's right, because the IDF generals all sit round planning on which civilians to target next, they don't really go for militants, noo that would be far too dificult. :rolleyes:

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Any word if his dead yet? (didnt mean to sound flippent)

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Still alive as far as I'm aware, they seem to be arguing amongst themselves as to a successor at the moment. Think they need to decide on a burial place that won't cause even more conflict, Arafat wanted to be buried in Jerusalem which is not going down well with Israel :( Until the burial ground is chosen they will no doubt refuse to turn of the life-support machine as due to religious customs Arafat must be buried within 24 hours of "dying". They are saying that due to the circumstances this may be overlooked this time, who knows :shrug:
BBC link

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Hey Xaccers I did my MCSE in Israel hehe... 9 exams for $70 bucks each heeh $30 sounds like a bargain heh....

Re: Arafat dead?
 

That's what I thought.

The big difference between IRA and Al Qaeda/Hamas/etc, is that IRA didn't want to kill anyone, only cause cause disruption with evacuations?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

And show that they could kill if they wanted to.
It also enabled them to try and shift the blame for the deaths onto the police for not responding in time.
I'm sure BBKing is right though in that a lot of attacks weren't forwarned, just the majority that I remember being told about had coded messages.
I have no idea what their policy was over in Ulster.
I think they knew that if they started slaughtering civilians they would quickly lose support

As for us negotiating with terrorists, try to think of it like this;
The pIRA called a ceasefire, and stuck to it (pretty much, as far as I know) during the negotiations, therefore we were not negotiating with terrorists, but ex-terrorists (put your Yes, Minister head on and it makes sense).
To my knowledge we're not negotiating with the RpIRA (can you have a real provisional?) although I could be wrong as it's been ages since I've seen any reporting on that situation.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Yes, he's gone.

About time. Anyone else got this horrible feeling in the pit of their stomach that he'll get replaced with someone worse?

Anyone else think it is distasteful that Yahoo reacts to his death in the same way as if a president dies?

Re: Arafat dead?
 

Yep, me. The man was an evil dictator, so good riddance.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

He has indeed,
He may well be, despite his origins, and some would say current status as a terrorist, he has tried to bring peace to the region without losing his stated goal of a palestinian state.
Many of those who would replace him are openly supporting the ongoing terror campaign, and some are even saying that they feel it is not enough.

Why ? - He is the president of his people, and he has done much in his life, both good and bad.

To his people he is a hero, a man who has tried to build an independant life for palestinians , and free them from the oppression of the Israelis.
To the Israelis he is the leader of a terrorist nation, and responsible for the death of many of their people.

To the rest of the world he is somewhere in-between.

He has been an open supporter of terrorism, and yet has won the nobel peace prize for his attempts to resolve the Palestine/Israel conflict.

he has been both negotiator and murderer, and most people would do well to remember both sides.

I cannot say I will mourn his loss, other than as the loss of another human. And yet I will not rejoice in it either.

As many are saying, this will be a turning point in the middle east. There appears to be no single leader strong enough to take his place, and the palestinian people have known no other leader for the last 40 years.

I shall wait until his legacy has been decided before I can pass judgement on his life.
If his succesor takes on the mantle of a peacefull solution and gets a Palestinian state, then his legacy is a good one, if his successor returns to the days of terror and non-negotiation, then it is a legacy of death and destruction.

This is an emotive subject, and I know that there are people on this forum with strong views on this subject. I have tried to be as unbiased as I can, so please refrain from insulting myself/each other when possible :ghugs:

Re: Arafat dead?
 

page 2 of today's sun presents some serious allegations...

it says wife stays in a £10k a night hotel suit and has substantial funds from a swiss bank account.

it also says Arafat was corrupt and milked off aid money for his own ends.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004522351,00.html


a corrupt politician! no chance!!!

Re: Arafat dead?
 

A very thoughtful and balanced post - really rare round here :tu: :) (And yes I know I am one of the worse offenders for that.)

I only ever speak for myself, but it doesn't matter what he did for peace (and in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't much), if someone like him not only promotes terrorism, but is a terrorist himself - does that give him a pass? Not in my book. Think of it like... Someone donates £50m a year to NSPCC, but abuses kids himself, does that mean we should take the line: "But he gives all that money to charity so let's respect him for that dispite the fact he does bad things"?

As etccarmageddon has pointed out, not only does he have all those terrorist links, but his fiancial misdealings have been known for years, albeit only whispered.

I just hope that someone will come forward, who isn't corrupt, has at least some common sense, and the fortitude to deal with Hamas et al. once and for all. Someone who'll work with the Israelis and not just advocate blowing them up. I don't like seeing Palestinians suffer anymore than anyone else, but the Jews have been around for some 4000 years versus the Muslims' 1300, they deserve to exist

Edit: About the president bit: It was a bad choice of words on my part, but OB already quoted it so I couldn't change it. I meant it like an undisputed honoured leader. If he wasn't so corrupt I might have called him that. I can call myself what I like, doesn't mean it is true or deserved.

Re: Arafat dead?
 

I think that there will be more than one 'successor' and that the Palestinians will probably fracture and disintergrate as a nation.I do not think there is anyone in as strong a position as Arafat to be able to unite them all.There are going to be accusations and counter accusations about where the money is and possibly even a blood bath between differing factions. :(

Re: Arafat dead?
 

maybe the the mods would like to Merge all the arafat thread in to one
even the thread i started about this hole thing 3 weeks ago !!!!

3 week old thread

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Just came across this thread. I dont usually become political on this site or even in public but I feel I must give my opinion on this subject and some of the comments that have been aired. :erm:

To be honest - no Sinn Fein / IRA (whatever you wish to call them) did not, to the best of my knowledge, use suicide bombers - they used innocent civilians by hijacking their vehicle installing an Improvised Exposive Device (or even worse, a crudely constructed bomb) onboard and forcing them to drive to a certain location (usually a Police Station or Military Base) - warning them that if they got out or they tried to stop or warn others, the IED would be detonated - many people were murdered this way in Northern Ireland!!

I read in a local newspaper article a few weeks ago that Claire Short was defending the reasoning behind insurgents attacks on British and US forces in Iraq. Unfortunately she decided to use the example of Northern Ireland because her father is/was from Armagh. In her statement she stated that the IRA didnt attack or murder any civilians throughout the 30 year period of the conflict!!!!! Do the victims of the Warrington and London Docklands Bombings agree with this?? I would say not!! To use one person's anecdote, "If the IRA didnt kill any civilians then Hitler was a pretty nice bloke". :shocked:

Some may say in this case that compared to the Palestinians, the Irish Republican Movement was not as dedicated to their cause as those in the Middle East - this is just one point of view - not necessarily my own because I witnessed it and living in such a situation where you cant go where you want, when you wish is sheer hell and Im glad that is all behind us!!


In terms of Arafat - yes, the man was perceived as a terrorist - but at least he had a cause and a vision. He fought for what he believed the Palestinian people desired despite condemnation from world leaders. He made a "Faux Pas" when he aligned himself with a certain Mr Saddam Hussain during the first Iraq / Gulf War. But he did attempt to make peace with Israel throughout the 1990s until the present day and it is for this that he should be remembered, after all the Israeli Authorities have also been accused of so-called "state-sponsored terrorism". Therefore a "Catch 22" situation was the end result where no-one can back down because each faction continues to attack each other.

To be honest, I would have been more sympathetic with the Israeli cause - and it was not until this morning that I realised how backward and bigotted some members of the Israeli Govt were. I believe that their Justice Minister was on television and radio this morning proclaiming that the world was a better place now that Arafat had died. Perhaps it would be a better place without views like that!!! :td:

This is just my few cents worth and a bit of a rant and my post it not meant to be offensive to anyone - I see the world for what it is. A spade to me IS a spade. :)

James

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

The IRA also murdered innocent children but we still have had to sit at the same table and come to some agreement with them.

As far as I can see with the awful behaviour from both factions(that the people who are entirely innocent are caught between)will make it very difficult for either side to sit at any table for some considerable time.Neither side can in my opinion claim the high ground.

If only there were some moderate voices shouting loud enough on either side. :(

Is it possible to be fanaticaly moderate?I feel that's what the world needs more of and less polarisation. :(

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Unfortunately, many years of conflict have resulted in the increased polarisation of communities, regions and countries. This in turn has led to "bitterness" being not only passed from one generation to another, but also the intensification of this bitterness towards opposing factions.

I remember when the NI Peace process was just taking off, we were furnished with the example of the Middle East Peace Process and how it had succeeded. I believe that you are right Incognitas that we do require more moderates in society - but how can we convince those who are lining their pockets with the current situation (ie - the politicians) of such a necessity??

We are all human after all and forgiveness is a large part of our ethical core. So why not just sit down and talk frankly but progressively and stop trying to gain the high moral ground!! :angel:

James :)

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Back to the Middle East for a moment.....

From what I understand of the situation the new acting head of Palestine is seen as more moderate than Arafat.

The problem is that Sharon is not a moderate, so unless he can tone his stance down somewhat then no new Palestenian leader will be the sole answer to the issues in that region.

As they say...it takes two to tango.

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Sharon is not the problem. He proposed it in parliment to remove Israelis from Gaza, and even got it passed. It is just the Israelis that have lived there for decades that don't want to go, but they'll be removed forcibly now.

James79: You said Arafat was a nice bloke because he had a [good] "cause and vision". Well Hitler did as well if you asked him. He thought he was making the world a better place. We aren't judged on our intentions, but our actions.

Arafat could have clicked his fingers and the conflict would have been so different. He had that power. But, he never used it.

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Could he? I don`t mean that in a flippant way, this conflict has two sides and both are equally responsible. With Arafat now dead one of Sharon's favourite excuses for acting like a barbarian has left the scene. Logically, until the new leaders of the PLO have demonstrated which way they are going to go, Sharon should curtail his reign of terror. It remains to be seen whether this will happen, of whether he just wants to continue with his tired rhetoric and finds a new excuse. If ithe latter it does bring into question whether Arafat, no matter what he did, could have eased the tensions in the area.

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Another excellent post by punky :)

The millions that Arafat and the PA have creamed off have been well known about, this is why Australia recently took back it's billions donation because there was no paper trail as to where the money would end up.
Some of the money that doesn't go into the politicians' swiss bank accounts goes into UN run schools, where pro-terrorist propaganda has been found.
When you see Gaza on the TV, you see the run down houses, the rubble etc, you don't see the nice million dollar houses though.
You don't hear about the hospitals that the israeli's build for them (hmm but the PA have got all that money...) or the free heart surgeory etc that the Israeli's offer them.

It's ironic that Israel was created as a land where jews and arabs could live in peace, and yet with the meddling of arab neighbours we have all this turmoil. Most israeli arabs (who are ethnicly and historically no different to the palestinians in gaza or the west bank) live as israeli citizens, in peace and prosperity.

Hopefully now Arafat has gone the peace process can start again.
And I really hope that a civil war doesn't break out between the settlers and the IDF next week while I'm there!

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Sorry Punky but where did I say that Arafat had a "good" cause and vision?? Such paraphrasing is dangerous!! I admit that my statement could be construed as meaning that but I believe that many thugs and terrorists are doing what they are just for the fiscal / personal reward not the social / cultural betterment of their people.

I underline the fact that I do not agree with any illegal action for the supposed benefit of any community or country and apologise profusely if my statement offended anyone!!! :(

James

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

Sorry, seems I read a bit too much into it, I thought you meant the whole cause and vision to be good in Arafat's case.

Xaccers: I never knew there was any million dollar homes in Gaza. I have noticed before though, that the Palestinians have some really nice brand new ambulances for some destitute people. Then there is always the fact they can't buy things like food, or supplies, but seem to manage to afford guns and weapons.

I have often wondered what the Palestinians think the Jews should have as their homeland. The jews have been reduced to this tiny spec of land engulfed in Muslim countries. I suspect they would say they shouldn't have any land at all, then that would be interesting. The by far the oldest religion would have no homeland.

Also, noone has yet managed to give me an answer to the question: "If Judaisism goes back to 2000bc, and Islam was founded in 600ad, how can Islam have any claim on Jewish land when it is obvious that they were there first?"

Dr Wadd: I think he had that power. Look at the chaos surrounding his funeral. He could have stopped the intifada (that he started?) if he wanted to.

Re: [Merged] Arafat Dead.
 

The ambulances are either supplied by Israel or the UN.
Just before I was last over there they found one which had been stolen and under the seats were suicide belts, so you can understand why the IDF initially thought that they may have photos of rockets being loaded into one.

It was only a few years or so ago that the PLO removed the destruction of the Israeli state from their mandate.
The way I see it is you had this land, with democracy and freedom, and prosperity, and the countries around it felt threatened and so attacked straight away. They told the native arabs that the jews were coming to steal their land and rape their women hoping to get an uprising, instead they fled and became refrugees. Israel foolishly denied them the right to return (haven't found out why yet). These people fled into Jordan, Lebenon, and Egypt. I've seen the refugee camps that were under Jordanian control (or at least what's left of them) and they are appauling!
They didn't call themselves Palestinians until later, when Yasser etc started their movement and started calling for the destruction of Israel and the creation of Palestine.

Islam is a decendant of Judaism, therefore Jewish sites are also important to Islam, hence why Mohammad went to Jerusalem and ascended into heaven there (or at least the rock he used to get up there is in the mosque)
As with Christianity, a prophet came along saying that the old religion (Judaism) is not right and the new one is, therefore anyone following the old religion is no longer following god.