Moving out of area - contract?
 

I've asked something similar to this before, but after the nightmare I had on the telephone yesterday I was curious as to where I stand.

I've moved to an area where cable isn't supported. I was on 1.5Mb broadband previously (had upgraded to SACM about June-ish, before that was STB).

When I telephoned and got through to house moves, they put me through to cancellations. However, this became an engaged tone and I had to hangup and redial.

Then customer services gave me a direct dial number of 0800 052 0243 - they seemed quite suprised! The woman at the end said that because I was still under contract I'd want to get Freedom, and shoved me through to another queue for Freedom sales. At this point I hung up.

Question is... the freedom services are vastly inferior to SACM (from what I can see the best speed they do is 512k and this costs £29.99 to be able to download a half decent amount ie. more than 5gb)

Is not them offering a vastly inferior product an opportunity for me to cancel services? Incidentally, after the fiasco on the phone, I cancelled the Direct Debit.

Any advice?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Shouldn't have canceled the DD.

If you have moved house into a non cabled area and you was on more than they can offer I can't see why the contract cannot be canceled. It was before the ADSL products and unless they can offer something the same as what you had before then they cannot keep you to the 12 month contract.
Most ADSL providers only have a 3 month contract.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Why am I not surprised that happened? :rolleyes:

*Sigh*...The good old 'ntl telephone ping pong' that they love to play with customers.:dozey:

Can't say I blame you.

There's no download cap/guideline on the ntl Freedom ADSL product (unlike your 1.5 Meg cable connection), & yes the best you can get is 512k (from ntl that is, but if you've got a BT phone line you have the choice of a wealth of ADSL suppliers offering from 150k to 4 Meg services)

Yes-The fact that you are moving out of a cabled area entitles you to cancel with one month's notice, regardless of how long you have remaining on your 12 month contract-end of subject.

Get rid of your ntl connection by putting it in writing to the address on your bill, & don't let them try to con you into getting the ADSL service-you do not have to take this.

HTH.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

as Kits, really.

You have a point that you are not being offered an equivalent package - but before you cancel your payments, are you sure you can get more from another provider. The (presumably) BT line you have may only be good enough for 512, anyway??

I think you will be better off pursuing a graceful release from your contract, rather than the prospect of possibly putting your credit rating at risk;)

<edit> & pretty much what Neil said, too :)

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

(i) moved houses, called them to transfer my services to my new address,

(ii) got told that I'm moving to a non-NTL-broadband-enabled area, so they can't offer me my 300k cable broadband, but said that they couldn't cancel my contract either because they could still offer me NTL Freedom ADSL, so i should transfer to NTL Freedom

(iii) told them I don't have a BT line as I use NTL's TV & phone package (yes, they supply TV and phone in my area, but no cable broadband). told them i really wouldn't mind taking up the NTL Freedom offer if they were willing to pay for my BT line rental each month (which would become an extra cost otherwise)... they said they won't !!!

(iv) i get told that i should either get a BT line installed and take up the NTL Freedom service, or i should pay off the rest of my cable broadband contract (another 8 months)... i.e., pay them for no service !!!

(v) common sense told me that this has to be illegal, but to take it up, i'd need everything in writing so sent them a letter (recorded delivery) asking them to either transfer the same 300k cable broadband service to my new address or cancel my contract on the basis that they can no longer offer me the same service... offered them a 30-day notice in my letter.

(vi) will let people here know how i get on, but in the meantime, has anyone had any success with cancelling their contracts without penalty recently (from Dec '04 onwards)?

ps> when i first signed up over the phone, i told the salesperson that i am likely to move within 3-4 months of signing up, at which point he assured me (verbally of course) that in such a situation, it was normal practice for NTL to either transfer the same service over to the new address (first transfer is free of charge), or failing that (i.e. if moving to non-broadband-enabled area), they will cancel the contract without penalty. that's not what they tell me now !!!

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Nothing like the truth. :nono:

Not that unreasonable IMO.

Totally wrong, & also probably quite illegal-did you get the name of the person that gave you these "facts"?

That's all you need to do. :tu:

Most people have major aggro after cancelling ntl service with ntl carrying on billing etc (they were on Watchdog last night for that very issue), they are getting as hard to get away from as AOL. :erm:

Typical ntl there too I'm afraid-again, did you get the person's name?

:welcome: to the site btw. :)

PS-Please ditch the Arial font. :)

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Thanx for the quick reply Neil :)

Unfortunately, I didn't take down the name of my Salesperson or the House Moves Advisor/Supervisor I spoke to. Hopefully if they are going to be consistent with their policies (or rather horror stories), then I will probably receive the same in writing in response to my letter.

Would you happen to know how long NTL take to respond to complaint/cancellation letters? I'm thinking of cancelling my direct-debit as soon as they have taken payment for the next month (which is my 30-day notice period). I don't fancy doing any chasing up afterwards so I'd much rather let them do all of that once I've served my 30-day notice period (if the situation is not settled by then that is).

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Don't cancel you DD as that may have an adverse affect on your credit history.

ntl are infamous for "not receiving" cancellation letters, send it via Recorded Delivery to the address on your bill, & if you still get no luck, contact one of the people listed here to get it resolved.

HTH.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I already sent my cancellation letter by Recorded Delivery last week and it was signed for as well. But now that the ball is in their court, how long should I wait for a response before I take things further? Also, looking at the nature of my query, who out of the people listed on that hyperlink you posted would be best to contact for a rapid resolution? Do you know of anyone who has had any luck with directly contacting these "seniors"?

You see the one thing that I'm trying to avoid is NTL taking money out of my account (keeps happening all the time, sometimes even after they tell you they have cancelled your account) and then me having to keep chasing them to refund me that money. The forums show that this is proving to be a major hassle, and I really wouldn't want any of that at this moment in time. You got any "time-scales" in mind which I should allow?

Cheers!

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Is it just me or are there loads of posts these days that say things like "(keeps happening all the time, sometimes even after they tell you they have cancelled your account)". Is it a widespread problem or are there a lot of members posting about the experiences of a very small number of other customers who have had problems?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Actually, I understand this is not now the case.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

You should allow up to 30 days from when your letter was signed for, for them to contact you & confirm cancellation on the 30th day.

If you find that it's not happening, call any of the big cheeses in that link I gave you.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Neil, I think I'll do exactly what you suggested, and just hope that they don't put me in a position to take things further.

Scrotnig, you state in the other forum that the policy to force customers to take up NTL Freedom is probably unenforceable, but how do you convince them not to enforce it? So far, they simply won't budge, so do I have to go to take legal action to contest this?

Ian, I understand that there is a small chance that a couple of small "errors" on NTL's part may well be played up quite a bit via these forums, but because there is no certainty as to how often these problems occur, any visiting customer is always going to look at all possible worst-case scenarios and try and prevent them rather than having to deal with them. I'm sure you understand !!!

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Yep. :tu:

No-take the name of the idiot that is trying to enforce it on you, & then contact Simon Duffy or one of his cronies, & ask him to explain why this individual is trying to do this, & what kind of underhand training are they giving out to get to this situation.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

That's not fact at all Neil - I don't beleive there's anything in the t&cs about being able to cancel early if you moved to a noncabled area, it was just a (very good) discretionary unwritten rule. So, no, there isn't any 'entitlement' to do this.

As Scrotnig says, I think this is no longer happening anyway...which is a shame, and not a little bit stupid. :erm:

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I think you are right, but I think the following could be construed as a reason for cancellation following a move:

Taken from 20. cancellation rights. If NTL can no longer provide the service, then surely that is a reduction in service. (Though obviously you could argue if they or you reduce the contents.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Wishful, inspired thinking, but I'm sure you'd get laughed out of the door....

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

The contract for the provision of services is for supply of them to a named address. NTL can still provide the same services to that address so you cannot claim a reduction in service.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Orangebird, looks like you work for NTL.

What do NTL have to say about customers who do not have a BT phone line at their new addresses (and hence cannot use NTL Freedom ADSL)? Are you saying that it is legal for NTL to force customers to have a BT line installed and pay the line rental for it every month on top of paying the full price for NTL Freedom?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

No, I'm not saying that at all. You just have to pay the remainder of your contract. No-ones making you install a BT line. :shrug:

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Have NTL done away with the 'jeopardy move' scenario then? Although TBH I am not sure of the situation where a cust is moving to an ntl area which cannot provide all services, ie in Milton Keynes

Chris :)

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Right, so now you think I should pay for the remainder of my contract and have no service in return. This, in spite of the fact that my Salesperson assured me that NTL will either transfer the same services to my new address (free of charge for first transfer), or failing that (i.e. if new area is non-NTL-broadband-enabled), will cancel my contract without penalty. Whatever happened to verbal promises made at the time of signing up? This is one of the key things I discussed with the Salesperson seeing that I was going to move houses within 3-4 months of signing up. Was he just "doing whatever it takes" to make the sale?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

If NTL enforces the contract and forces customers moving to pay up for the remainder of their contract time, what happens if the new occupier of the property wants the same NTL services as the former occupier? Would the new occupier be charged for the period that the old occupier has already paid for? If you are moving house and have paid the council tax for the year in full then you either get a refund for the time after you vacate or the buyer pays you for the time that they are in occupation.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Actually, let's put it this way. Assuming that NTL Cable Broadband was the only service around (and it was only available in some areas), and that there was no alternatives such as NTL Freedom ADSL to serve the non-cables areas, could NTL still hold customers to the rest of the contract even though they can't supply customers moving to non-cabled areas for the remaining duration of their contracts?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Legally they can. You have to remember that in most cases you are getting free installation as well as the use of the services ofr the period before you move. You can imagine that if a customer signed up for NTL and then a month later decided to move to a non cabled area that it has cost NTL a fair amount of money and they are not a charitable institution.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

In a word, yes... :shrug:

I think the unwritten poluicy about cancelling contracts early for noncabled areas changed quite recently...

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

It appears this is what they do with tv/tele: they will let you out of contract for tv and telephone if they can't provide it. It's just with BB that they are trying to push Freedom. A strange half-way house I think, especially since Freedom is inferior compared to the higher tier Cable BB. Either they keep you under contract because they can, or acknowledge the fact that Freedom is an inferior service.

Edit: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=23625 shows a recent example of a customer who appears to have been allowed to cancel tv/tele but not BB

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Yes - the contract is with the customer, nit with the building.

You can't really compare council tax to cable services.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I would say that the contract is with the customer and also with the building. If the contract is solely with the customer then they should continue to serve that customer with the contracted services.

We are comparing the payment for these services not the content of them. Why should NTL, or any other company, be able to charge two people for the supply of the same one product at the same time.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I understand what you mean here, and agree that it is necessary for NTL to tie customers down to 12-month contracts to make the entire deal (inc. free installation, half-price line rental, and other offers) still profitable. However, it's not that I didn't know that I was going to move houses within 3-4 months of signing up with NTL. I had clarified this with the Salesperson and he told me what the normal procedure was for customers moving houses (transfer same service to new address or cancel contract without penalty), and only then did I sign up.

I would really like to have my cable broadband transferred to my new address, but it is not my fault that my new address is in a non-broadband-enabled area. I wouldn't even mind taking up the NTL Freedom ADSL services if it didn' require a BT Line. Paying for a BT Line and NTL Freedom each month will cost me more than 50% extra on top of what I was paying for my 300k NTL Cable Broadband service.

We already have NTL's phone and TV package at my new address (have had it for a few years now so way beyond any minimum contract terms), and if this saga continues too long, then I'll probably have to cancel both of those and change to Freeview with TopUpTV to go with a new BT Line and NTL Freedom ADSL. That is the only way I will stay close to my current monthly expense:

Currently:
£19.50 for NTL TV and Phone + £17.99 for 300k Cable Broadband = £37.49

If I am forced into taking up NTL Freedom:
£10.50 for BT Phone + £7.99 for TopUpTV + £16.99 for NTL Freedom ADSL = £35.48

Actually, now that I have done the maths, maybe this wouldn't be a bad idea after all, with a saving of £2 each month!!! Once my 12 months with NTL are over, I could also transfer my ADSL to a faster provider. Sounds like a win-win situation to me !!! I shall think this over later today!

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

That's assuming they don't lock you in to a 12 month contract for freedom :rolleyes: Sorry, just being cynical here. ;)

Edit: You could also try telling them you will be forced to cancel tv/phone on the new address if they force you on freedom, and see how they react.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I'm sure what you are saying might just turn out to be the case. I would probably be tempted into contesting a new 12-month contract, but I'll probably save my energy instead because at the end of the day, I will still be saving money, getting 512k broadband instead of 300k broadband, and overall, NTL will have less business from me than they could have had (with cancellation of my phone and TV package).

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Also remember that the Freedom Tech Support phone line is charged at 75 pence per minute (should you ever need to ring it)

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on NTL's ADSL either, so I think I'm gonna keep trying to get out of it. Will keep you updated on the progress.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

There are far better DSL products out there too (uncapped too), have a read of www.adslguide.org.uk for a better idea.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

I have no doubt that there are better ISP's around. I'm after a very basic connection seeing that I only use the Internet for email, web-browsing and MSN really. Can you recommend any ADSL suppliers which are cheap? Could well be capped seeing that I don't see myself downloading more than 1GB each month.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Let's be frank here. Whilst I don't agree that the changing of the rules as described was a good idea, at the end of the day it works like this.

If you agree to rent a house and sign a year long lease, and then decide to move after six months, the landlord is entitled to charge you to the end of the lease. It's the same with cable and other services. When you sign up, you are agreeing a 12 month contract. That's not '12 months as long as it suits me', it is a straight 12 months, no arguments.

ntl used to give some leeway on this if you were moving to a non-cabled area, but now it seems they don't. Telewest NEVER did. Whilst it can be argued all night whether it's a good policy, and I happen to think it isn't, the fact remains it's entirely legal and it shows once again that people should read what they are signing up to before they sign it.

The council tax comparison is not relevant since that is a legal obligation not an optional service, and is also not subject to any minimum term...you can move out of the area and not be liable for the rest of the year at that property.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Tell me something Scrotnig... seeing that, when signing up, I knew that I was only going to be at the old address for 3-4 months, was I plain stupid to have signed up to a 12-month contract anyway?

I have said this before, and will repeat myself once again - the salesperson assured me that NTL will either transfer the same service to my new address or if it's not possible to do this, then they will cancel my contract without penalty.

This was a verbal agreement and one of the conditions under which I made the purchase!!!

Now it is NTL who are changing their story and breaking their promise. I am doing exactly what I had always intended to do, so how is it fair for me to be liable to see out my contract when it is clearly contrasting to what my salesperson told me?

One could argue that if I don't have it in writing, it was never promised to me, but then again, does that mean that there is no value of a verbal promise?

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Yes. :rolleyes:

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

:Oh: Thanx very much!!

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Signing a year long contract to rent a house is inherently agreeing not to move for a year. I think ntl would find it very hard to persuade a court that by signing their 12 month broadband contract you are also agreeing not to move for a year, simply because they cannot supply the services specified at an alternative address.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

It is important to remember this...

When the saleperson advised you of the above, then it may have been possible to leave the contract early at the discretion of the person handling your disconnection. This process has now been tightened up however and the terms & conditions are specific in pointing out that you will agree to a 12 month minimum term. Future house moves my be unforseen, however to be completely realistic, ntl: is a business and by tightening up the belt with this process, they have enabled better security of assets and prevention of potential losses. In other words... they are simply protecting an investment in the same way most other companies do.

It is completely legal to offer you ntl: freedom should you move to a different area for the remainder of the 12 months minimum term. Alternatively however you may cancel the services with 30 days notice and be charged an early termination fee (calculated on basic services per month for the remainder of the 12 months agreement). You have agreed to accept ntl: services for a period of 12 months regardless of the address. Should you move abroad however then you will not be expected to accept ntl: freedom and instead the early termination fee will be applicable.

You state above that the advice given by the sales advisor forms a verbal agreement. It's important to state however that any agreement you have with ntl: and vice-versa is built on the terms & conditions which may be changed at any time should ntl: deem it fit or relevant to do so. The terms & conditions online will naturally be amended to reflect this change in order to allow customers to view this change.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

There were (and still are) no terms regarding moving houses in the t&c's. This is why I had to get clarification from my salesperson regarding this situation because I knew I was going to move houses within 3-4 months of signing up (so it was not unforseen). It's not that I want to get rid of NTL's services seeing that I was quite happy with my connection and the cost, and this is why I would have really preferred to have my broadband connection transferred rather than cancelled.

When you tell me that the contract may be cancelled at the discretion of the person handling my disconnection, it gives me a clear sign of inconsistency with their "unwritten" policies. It's kind of "ring in and hope that you get someone in a good mood".

The bottomline is that if my salesperson had told me that I will be stuck with the 12-month contract even if I moved to Mars, then I would not have signed up - it's as simple as that. I signed up because he assured me that NTL would cancel my contract if they can't supply me with cable broadband at my new address. As for NTL Freedom, I don't mind taking it up as long as NTL are willing to pay for the "added cost" of a BT Line.

As for changing the t&c's as and when NTL feel necessary, I'm sure there's a clause on it somewhere (naturally) to say that customers can cancel their contracts if they are unhappy with any major changes in the t&c's.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Which is why the belt has been tightened.

nope - you have agreed to accept the changes; which will not be unfair as the contract may then contravene the unfair contract terms act. You are however entitled to cancel without penalty if there is a price increase, a significant reduction in service or the network is killed in your area (no longer serviceable). This is stated in the terms & conditions.

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

Or if there is a significant change in the terms and conditions...

NTL do not have the right to change as T&C 'as they see fit'. A significant change can be cause for termination on the part of the customer.

They also have to give written notification:

Re: Moving out of area - contract?
 

nice one danielf - I didn't read the post properly.

changes may also be ground to cancel however as long as the request to cancel on this basis is reasonable has bearing on your service(s) and account.