What did hit the Pentagon?
 

http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...entagon121.swf

Interesting stuff...

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

There are more 9/11 questions unanswered than answered :shrug:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

That is scary! So - what are they trying to hide? Were the same people firing missiles - or was it someone else? Was it really a missile - or something else?
I don't suppose the truth will ever come out. :shrug:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

how do I access this SWF file?

what program is required?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

It should load up in your browser if you have www.macromedia.com flash components installed. Normally if they're not installed the site/movie should direct you to install them.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

perhaps it was ET escaping or the illuminati or even us :erm: :rolleyes:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Oh dear, another paranoid conspiracy theory based on, well, nothing, really.

Starting with a recording of Hitler isn't the greatest beginning, then going into a bunch of quotes from "eyewitnesses" who reportedly saw "a small aircraft" or a "missile" (like they're not distinguishable!) and then claiming that their "it wasn't Flight 77" theory is backed up because a bunch of security camera videos *haven't* been realeased hardly offers any credible proof.

For a slightly less hysterical (and somewhat more believable) opinion see: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Something deliberate hit it, does it really matter to us in the uk what it was ?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Exactly...have there been any official tapes of the WTC impacts released either? I don't think so, although I may be wrong - but as far as I know all the footage is from amateur cameramen or news crews - no CCTV.

Also the Pentagon is a unique building, the fact that an aircraft didn't come out the other side is not really surprising, given that it would have had to have entered and exited the equivalent of four buildings to do so. The building was designed to withstand missile attack, the windows at the start that are intact are likely to be bomb proof.

Honestly, I think is probably the weakest conspiracy theory I've seen about 9/11 - nice use of shockwave though!

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

The most compelling is that the goverment knew about it and let it happen (no one has benfited more from the attacks than bush, he was in deep problems, no majority behind him and now he is gonna win the election and got his iraqi war)

Although I dont believe that either

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

This was posted in another thread. ;)

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Well apparently there are a lot of rumours on the internet and newsgroups that Bush did indeed chose not to chase the hijackers in the US so he can wage war against the offending nations.
There a lot of evidence that the CIA and FBI have said no actions needed when the surveillance ppl have said activities were going on. Also a lot of things that were intercepted in arabic were convienently translated AFTERWARDS.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Considering that the 9/11 attacks were mainly carried out by Saudis, funded by Saudis and the result of a political and religious philosophy developed by Saudis, but Bush invaded Iraq, I don't think he wanted to wage war against the offending nations at all - he certainly wanted to boot out Saddam and overfocused on this to the detriment of the safety and security of the US and indeed the rest of the world.

Remember, every time you hear 9/11 mentioned, remind yourself that it was Saudi terrorism in the same way that the IRA attacks in London and elsewhere were Irish terrorism.

Anyway, aeroplanes and holes in buildings - that conspiracy 'theory' is indeed a pile of old poo - buildings are stronger than airliners, particularly steel-reinforced masonry buildings. There were bits of plane left, particularly the engines, which usually end up recognisable after accidents, often at the furthest extent along the wreckage path (cf. the crash of Vulcan VX770 at Syerston in 1958). The first eyewitnesses are usually the least accurate - they usually aren't looking in the right direction, have inadequate visual cues to judge size, and often confuse the timelines, often stating that aircraft are on fire in the air when the explosion was on the ground.

I thought the second plane that hit the WTC was an Airbus A320, even after several viewings - not being familiar with the WTC (although I'd been there once) I had nothing else to judge the size against, all I saw was a twin-jet-engined low-wing airliner.

Apart from anything else, the conspiracy theorists have to come up with an explanation of where Boeing 757-223 N644AA and 68 people are. Not easy to hide.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

hmmm true but have you SEEN any evidence to make u believe there was a plane in that place ? Also why didn't we see any CCTV cameras showin' the plane descent ? ALSO why did the FBI nick every camera's tape in the area ? It only luck that there was amatuers camera operators in NY catchin' the whole thing or we'd wouldn't have proof of that either.... and yes there were MORE THAN 3 bullets.....oooopp wrong conspiracy.....

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

have u seen evidence to the say otherwise? plenty of people spotted the plane
hmm..FBI collecting tapes for evidence very odd:rolleyes:

what did they tape? always a good amatuer camera operator around when u need them

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

What a load of old rubbish. You can ignore the truth and make up any old excuse to fit a story

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Given that there are lots of amateur cameramen around these days, it would be a very brave conspirator who fired a missile at the Pentagon in broad daylight without considering that someone might be around with a camcorder, filming footage would be on the TV within minutes, 24-hour news being what it is. As for CCTV, where do CCTV cameras normally point? The ones round here generally point at the ground, where there are things to monitor, not up in the air.

There was one CCTV camera pointing vaguely in the direction of impact, but the speed the thing was going meant that it arrived and exploded in the space of one frame, so you don't see a hell of a lot. It's on the net somewhere.

There are bits of aircraft metal visible on photos taken after the impact. Very small bits, as you'd expect.

As far as NY was concerned, the second plane hit the tower well after the TV networks were broadcasting the full thing live. Amateur cameramen or not, there was no way that was going to be concealed.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

So what happened to the wings of the plane? Why no damage to the building which would point to it being them? I'll accept that they would fold back on themselves but still, that much of metal and fuel would surely leave tell-tale damage to the Pentagon over a wider distance?

Why would a plane that size leave a 'tunnel' of damage through the building which is clearly smaller that the diameter of the aircraft?

How did all those tonnes of burning fuel not cause those few windows to disintegrate?

I'm not saying it was anything other than a terrorist attack by plane but there are still a lot of odd unanswered questions.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

If the plane hit at virtually ground level, the wings, being mostly light and not designed for that sort of stress, would have left comparitively little "inward" damage, although the wide "bloom" of smoke from the fuel can be clearly seen.

It is the conspiracy theorists who claim that "tunnel" was left by the fuselage, but it's more likely that it was actually an engine (a very solid lump of metal) that actually caused it.

The windows are designed to be bomb proof.

I think most of them are entirely answerable.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

With my limited imagination on this, I'd have expected the wings (even in 'fold-back' mode) to have created a larger impact hole than what it did.

What makes you think that?

Granted.

Given your apparent stance on this subject I can see why you'd say that but taking the side of someone who is situated on the opposite end of the 'was it a conspiracy' spectrum could easily say they are not so easily solved.

I guess it comes down to what you believe and how you view the other side's "evidence".

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Um - the wings of a fully-laden airliner would have snapped off *forwards*, the inertia of the heavy fuel smashing them to pieces from the inside, then vapourising and exploding. There's a clear wide burn mark on the front of the building. Why would they create an impact hole? They would present a narrow front to the building, since the aircraft was nearly horizontal, having bounced *up* off the ground into the building. It was at an angle to it, though.

The plane hit between the first and second floors. The building didn't collapse with the impact (it's stronger than the plane, as I said) but with the fire, which will bring most things down eventually if allowed to burn.

The fuselage of an airliner is an air-filled tube of thin aluminium that will concertina and disintegrate in an head-on impact and, if exposed to fire, burn. The engines are solid, heavy lumps of dense metal which don't burn (pretty useless if they did) and at that speed have considerable energy and can smash through things. Hence why at least one of them ended up a good distance inside the building. Once the wall is penetrated, the fire can enter too, and working from the inside, eventually cause collapse. The evidence is precisely what you'd expect if you fly a fully-fueled airliner head-on into a steel reinforced masonry structure.

Broken windows - this photo shows broken windows across most of the frontage.
http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Se...-8006R-002.jpg

There are also other photographs showing broken windows on the *inside* walls of the building.

Spot the errors in this article - another chap who's spent a lot of time plotting angles and things without actually considering how aircraft are constructed and how they behave in a crash. The bit about the engines 'exploding' is particularly funny.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

There may be a 'wide burn mark' at the front of the building but you surely cannot be serious in saying it would be wide enough to represent where the wings would have hit!?

No, I'm not sure it was anything other than a plane hitting it but I guess we'll all have to accept that something happened which we weren't told about.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

there is a program on channel 4 thursday at 9 about this stuff

What else would have hit it?

What happened to the plane then, there was 4 hijacked planes. People where killed in all 4 planes. Familys have lost members on the plane that hit the pentagon so if a plane didnt crash into it, where did it go.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

they were transported into the future.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097883

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

See there already a big argument to where the holes for the wings are and where are the actual debris of the plane ?

I'll shall be watching the 9/11 program on National Geographic Channel and Channel 4 intently.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

correct me if i am wrong but when a planes crashs into a building it doesnt just plummet though, it explodes so the wings may have fallen off.

Anyway i am sure i saw parts of a plane when it happened on news 24/sky

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

im sure i read all about this before just after the 9/11 strike seemed to be a truck as no one could spot the plane - but we just dunno

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

this was not damage from a car/truck bomb, missile or the result of demolition charges the only explanation is the it was hit by a plane

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Not just fallen off, but vapourised.

Well, it's very wide indeed, remember the Pentagon is an *enormous* building - 77 feet tall with faces 921 feet long, which gives the length of the burnt area, estimated from photos, as about 5 or 6 building heights, or 350 to 500 feet, approximately. This is three or four times the wingspan of a 757-200, which is 125 feet, near as dammit. Even at an angle (looking at the side of the building the plane hit, it came from the right-hand side at an angle of 45-55 degrees) that's still smaller than the burnt area.

Most of the damage is caused by post-impact fire, of course, but to provide enough fuel and energy to set fire to that much building must have taken something pretty large.

There is a photo of the remains of a jet engine on the net - it's on a conspiracy site and is used to try and claim that a much smaller jet hit the building - however this claim ignores the difference between a high-bypass turbofan like the RB211-535E4-B and a turbojet. The difference being that the turbofan has a big fan on the front and a much smaller diameter jet core towards the back - you don't see this on pictures, of course, unless the casing is open.

http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3

Cutaway of an RB211
http://www.eng.uct.ac.za/~victor/ele...rbine4_256.gif

Note the comparative size of the front fan and the first section of the compressor, and that this compressor looks very like the first photo on the physics911 site, minus blades.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

All this speculation and different views make me laugh!

If it was written in the bible it would of been accepted without any argument.

Sorry guys but it does make me smile, no offence intended. :angel:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Not by me, I'd like to point out.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Nor me !

I wonder - is it only the us militery that have access to all the evidence ? Where is the report from the crash investigators ?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

That's a good question actually, the NTSB site merely says
"Please note: information regarding the investigation into the events of September 11, 2001 will be released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is the lead investigative agency. The Safety Board is providing technical assistance to the FBI, as described in the September 13 Press Advisory."

So the investigation is being done by the FBI with NTSB help, which I suppose is logical because it's a criminal act rather than an aircraft crash, thus the course of events is better assessed by criminal investigators rather than air crash investigators.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

I am usually not swayed by conspriracy theories but I have followed this one closely and I beleive the evidence puts the Pentagons turn of events into doubt.

I urge you to read the following three links. They are not sensationalist and are very, very good.

You might change your mind.

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero...erreurs_en.htm

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero...temoins_en.htm

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero...le/trou_en.htm

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero...missile_en.htm

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

WOW...

Never seen any of these Images or sites B4.

I agree 100% that there are a LOT of unanswered questions.

Planes ?? NO... But what it was & by who we will NEVER know

File it next to JFK, Dianna & the rest of these cases (Jill Danda & more)

Any more images or Vids? The 225MB one failed on that site :mad: I would love more info

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

First of all it happen 1 hour later that the twin towers, next what else could it be?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

What a pile of cr@p.

God bless America, land of the paranoid. :rolleyes: Like all good conspiracy theories, it contradicts itself and uses those same contradictions as evidence of its credibility. For goodness sake, what do these people think it was? A small commuter jet or a missile? Or does the fact that so many 'eyewitness' stories contradict merely show how difficult it is to accurately recall something that happened so fast?

What a waste of webspace.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Who knows? but I doubt it was a passenger jet.

Actually it's from a French site.

The official line contradicts itself too. I personally find the evidence compelling.

Unlikely to be a small jet. Did you see the photgraphs of the perfectly round hole that penetrated 3 rings of the building. A missile of some sort? possibly.

Doubtful to me that it would be a passenger jet could make such a hole. We are told by the Pentagon that the plane disintegrated on impact, yet we are to believe that the nose of the plane was strong enough to penetrate 3 rings of the building and form a perfectly round hole all the way through?

I find that most unlikely.

In your opinion, I think it's very good.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

OK, so how about a motive for this attack?

Look at the wider context here. On 9/11, we know for a fact that three airliners were hijacked by Islamist extremists. Two crashed into the World Trace Centre, watched by dozens of TV cameras. One crashed in a field, heard by several witnesses who were on the phone with passengers of that plane. A fourth airliner was also hijacked (unless anyone can explain what happened to Flight 77, which is still missing :rolleyes: ) but because there is not the same weight of evidence surrounding it, there is room for the usual suspects to shout 'Government conspiracy!'. It is utterly ridiculous, especially on a day when we already know that three (count 'em) planes had already been hijacked with the intention of crashing them into high-status buildings.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Not to mention the fact that it makes absolutely no sense that the government would want to cover up a missile/small jet attack. What are these people thinking? People in the government thinking it would be too embarrassing to admit to a missile attack, so they made up an attack with a large airliner, as this nicely coincided with other events on that day? :rolleyes:

What utter rubbish...

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

What do you expect an aircraft travelling at several hundred MPH colliding with a virtually immoveable object to do, bounce off? Disintegration sounds likely to me, based on what generally happens to planes in conjunction with solid objects.

The nose thing (and yes, I know the US authorities mentioned it first, they were stone wrong, too) is a total straw man - if one uses ones brains you get this:

1) there's a hole
2) the nose of an airliner colliding with a solid object is unlikely to be in a fit state to do anything afterwards.
3) something must have caused the hole
3) hang on, there are two energetic circular heavy solid objects hung off 757s travelling at 45 degrees to the outer wall that past accidents have proved take some stopping. To whit, the engines.

As mentioned earlier, one of the other sites on this subject is definitely erroneous when talking about turbofan engines.

I read those pages many moons ago and concluded the authors know very little about aircraft design and construction (probably as little as the press and most US government officials, which is why I don't trust any of them).

[Edited to sound a little less personal, wasn't intending to be]

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Well I think the motive has already been established.

and you obviously point out that three (counting 1,2,3 yes 3) other planes were hijacked on the same day etc.

and because of these facts you accept what the US government tell you about what happened to the Pentagon when the evidence puts those turn of events into some doubt at the very least. You're a spin doctors dream.

What happened at the pentagon is worth questioning, and if there is some doubt that what happened there is different to what was told it should be questioned.

There is no doubt the Pentagon was targeted as part of a co-ordinated attack but targeted by what? I don't know.

But just becuase I don't know does not mean I have to accept what US officials are saying.

When the Pentagon was hit everybody immediately though it was by a plane. Two planes had hit the trade centre, one had crashed, what else could it be????

Once it was reported as a plane that's the story that they stuck with. What if what hit the Pentagon was something scary'er. A more sophisticated weapon. A weapon that could penetrate tens of metres of reinforced concrete. Wouldn't it be better to stick with the story of a plane, a credible story that every one would believe rather than admit the Pentagon was a victim of a sophisticated missile attack?

In regards to flight 77. Flight no.s and passenger manifests could easily be created.

When you look at the photographs I do not believe that a plane that has already hit the ground then into the building could make a hole like the one in photographs.

You believe what you want to believe.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

These are the same people that think Dark Skies got cancelled because it was blowing the whistle on a genuine aliens-among-us cover-up. :rofl:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

And I urge you to go back and read the link that I posted and the other comments where all of these points (which are, BTW, simply French re-hashes of American conspiracy sites) are addressed and explained.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

You mean it *wasn't*? Damn...!!!

ADDENDUM: Anyway, it's a well known fact that programmes like Dark Skies, The X-Files et al are actually a cleverly designed psychological campaign to prepare us for the fact that the aliens are already here, but the government doesn't want to admit it outright because if people aren't innured to the subject by TV they might panic...!

<Grams: Twilight Zone Theme>

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

And this is another classic example of conspiracy theory nonsense. It asks lots of leading questions, but doesn't supply any answers, just tries to make itself sound credible.

If these terrorists were capable of doing such an act, why did they bother with hijacking planes in the first place? Couldn't they have done the same to the WTC?!

By those blokes with the Black Helicopters, of course.

And you are an expert on Air Crashes? Or have you just seen some documentaries on TV? (Most of which don't feature aircraft hitting buildings!)

Some people will believe whatever they want to believe *no matter* what evidence is stuck in front of them. Most of them, however, are not conspiracy theorists.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

OK, so Islamists wanted to attack the Pentagon. We agree thus far.

Yep, still agreed.

And so it falls apart. The evidence supports the conclusion that the terrorists were intent on using planes to attack buildings; that they hijacked four planes to that end; that they succeeded on three counts and failed on the fourth. There is no credible evidence that positively asserts the Pentagon was hit by something other than Flight 77. There is only the usual conspiracy theorist's fare: questioning the evidence for a conclusion they don't like with a series of contradictory, badly researched statements. (Such as the classic, 'it was definitely a bomb, I could smell the cordite'. :dozey: )

If there is some doubt. Which there isn't.

And here is the core of all good conspiracy theories. The unquestionable (not to mention entirely unproveable) assumption that the government must have something to hide.

Now you're just floating about in cloud cookoo land. This whole event unfolded in the full glare of the international news media. Which quick-witted special agent do you suppose managed to cook up all that false information, and do it so fast that everyone (including United Airlines, or whoever it was) believed it too? And made the world believe that 70-odd non-existent people endured fake deaths in the name of covering up some super-missile hijacked by Bin Laden? And convinced 70 families to go through 70 staged funerals? Get real.

Spoke the expert in aircraft disasters. Another classic symptom of the conspiracy theory: armchair 'experts' who know what cordite sounds like, what kind of pattern aircraft make when they hit the ground and the way in which a fuselage will crumple when subjected to high-velocity impact.

No, I will believe what the evidence overwhelmingly suggests I should believe. Believing what you want to believe is a hobby enjoyed by conspiracy theorists.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

ooh I'll try and use my brains then, just for you Mr Intelligentia.
Theres no denying that.
Agreed
yes, something did. I'm still with you
QED - fantastic.

Why is there only one hole then? if one engine managed to enter several tens of metres why doesn't the other even make a dent?

Why didn't the brilliant minds of the USA government point this out. I'm sure they have expert crash investigators. Maybe you should let them know.

I have, and it didn't explain it to anything like satisfaction.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

There was a program on ages ago about crash tests. I remember they were doing tests like a train crashing to one of the containers they use to transport nuclear waste. They also had a test where they flew a jumbo into a large strong concrete wall or something similar. The plane completly disintegrated.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Just a theory, I don't have any answers.



Comic genius



No, but I am a Chartered Civil Engineer and do have some structural knowledge reading the website you advised me to read. The Pentagon advised on how they had recently reinforced the structure of the building. Sufficient enough to stop a plane, but not it's nose. I do note that they have now changed that to engine.

Personally I'm not arsed either way, I just find interesting, I don't believe it all adds up.

And by the way, NO I don't think we landed on the moon either.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

So who planted that flag up there???




Ok, never mind....... :(

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Well of course it would. Whilst it may be a large structure it is fairly fragile when subjected to stresses that it was not designed for. If you think of an aircraft like an extended vacum cleaner hose (which is pretty much what the main hull looks like) in a frontal impact, the sides of the hull would concetina up and disintegrate.

The hole, with a lack of other information is highly likely to be an engine, where is the other, well all sorts of other structures are in the way, perhaps a concrete lift shaft slowed it.

The fire certainly had more fuel to it than a simple missile could provide perhaps a few thousand tonnes of Jet A. The heat that created would also be sufficient to melt aluminum to finish what was left of the hull.

The fires in the North and South towers were hot enough that the hulls of the two 'craft were not recovered, why are there no conspiracies there?

One I remain open on, I do believe the Appollo missions went to the moon, however did they do it in the 60s? This said there were enough people around to track a projectile that hung around in LEO for the duration that this would need to be a conspiracy that involved the russian, Japanes and european space agencies. Being as it was a cold war race against the ruskies, I doubt this.

Though the photograps do leave questions.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

True, but from what I have seen there is enough evidence to question it.

There is doubt in my mind.

Of course its unproveable. What you want me to prove it? Pierre secret agent. Of course it's unproveable.

Very far fetched I'd have to agree

[quote]Spoke the expert in aircraft disasters. Another classic symptom of the conspiracy theory: armchair 'experts' who know what cordite sounds like, what kind of pattern aircraft make when they hit the ground and the way in which a fuselage will crumple when subjected to high-velocity impact.[quote]

As I mentioned to Graham, I do have some knowledge of structures. There are impact standards that have to be applied to structures of a certain height. The Pentagon had several walls of thick reinforced concrete. The jets that hit the WTC only went essentially through glass and steel and they disintegrated almost immediately. Yes they left an entry hole but neither plane made it through the building. The Pentagons construction is far beyond that of the WTC yet we are to beleive the plane distintegrated on impact but still managed to penetrate the 3 rings of the building.


As you wish

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

The WTC would have had a concrete centre would it not for the lift shafts etc?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Yes, but it would not have been structural concrete and would have been thin walls with light reinforcement purely for the thermal shrinkage of the concrete.

The WTC was a steel framed building all the strutural forces would have been taken by the frame.

The pentagon had 2feet thick reinforced walls with metal "tubes" I can only assume like scaffold poles. Then several more reinforced concrete walls after that.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trusstheory.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...disaster/3.stm
It did not take up much of the structure, the concrete core would have been what ripped the wings off and resulted in the fuel spill.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

It would easily be cleared up.

this link is to a photo that was take by a security camera o/s the Pentagon. As the 'plane' exploded.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07...res/index.html

Assuming that the camera was there all the time where are the photos of the plane just "before" it hits the building?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

So where is the wreckage?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

I agree that the impact site of the Pentagon does on first impression look odd for it to have been hit by a 757 travelling at - what 400kts ?? One small (comparatively) hole and no signs of impact from the wings or engines.

I would've expected two holes for the engines and what I could only describe as a 'splat' mark for the fuselage, much like a fly on a windscreen.

An aluminium fuselage end on would most likely concertina rather than act like a dart passing through - what - 6 or more walls of thick heavily reinforced concrete.

Also where the wings attach to the fuselage there are a number of high strength spars which would also IMO exert major damage, but none is evident.

But then I am no expert. :dozey:

I do have to say that I believe there is far more compelling evidence to suggest it was the 757, not least where did the real aeroplane with all its pax go ?? :confused:

The whole thing is an enigma. :erm:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

It melted / cremated.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

It would have to have been a high speed camera to catch every millisecind of 'action' - not a 'slow' security camera. Nonetheless it doesn't answer the question definitely for me. :(

Assuming the aircraft was travelling c. 300mph it would travel 135 meters / sec.

The distance on the frame (from edge to impact) would be about 60m the time in frame would be approx. half a second. Easily missed. :erm:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

And in very small bits. Ask yourself the question 'what am I expecting to see?' and 'have I got my frame of reference right in this picture?'.

What would you expect to find if a largish plane hit a solid wall at several hundred mph? 'Rather small bits and a badly damaged wall' would be about right.

The conspiracy theory sites either don't have the photos of engines, wheels etc. that are freely available, or they try and make out they're not from 757s, like the RB211 compressor disc mentioned earlier. Consistency lacking a bit, there, either there's no wreckage, or the wreckage of something, depending on which site you read.

'Where's the Boeing?'
'There, there, there and there, in small bits'
'Oh... [pause]...That's not a Boeing, the bits are too small!'

Round and round we go.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

I think what many people are expecting to see if not 'several large pieces' would be 'many, many small pieces', neither of which seem to be immediately apparent, hence another angle to the conspiracy theory.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Maybe George Bush is a alien! Explains a lot, (although it would have to be a pretty dumb alien)

Anyway that pentagon thing is a lot of rubbish!

Who would fire a missle, it cant be terrorists so it would be a country?

Why would a country fire a milsile?

Why would the usa cover it up?

I understand that common sense is pretty annoying but you cant always look for a hidden agenda all the time

Try telling the familys of those that where on the plane that it never happened

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

The photos are very selective and poor quality, also if the plane went 3 buildings in then most of the small parts of the plane would be buried in the debris.

You cant see the debris of the planes of the twin towers in most photographs

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Of the Moon conspiracy, is the American Flag still up on the moon?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

http://ncsdweb.ncsd.k1.wy.us/planetarium/flag.html

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

And how do we know there is a Flag on the Moon? lol :p:
Ok I wont open that Can of Worms :D

Ok it is a Perfect Circle.. So maybe (just maybe) the USA fired it? Aiming for Flight 77 (if there was one) or some other target & it FAILED..

It cant be a PLANE..

• Had to fly a few Feet off the Ground to make that Hole.
• No marks on the Grass/Gardens outside the Pentagon (AKA The Triangle) :Yikes:

I found this INFO Mind Blowing :Yikes:



The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11.
September 11 has 9 letters and 2 numbers: 9+2=11.
The number 911 is the telephone number for emergencies in North America.
September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11.
After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.
March 11, 2002, marked 6 months since the attack, and fell in the 11th week of 2002.


The first plane to hit the towers was American Airlines Flight 11.
The Flight 11 call letters were AA11: A=1, A=1, AA=11.
Four of the hijackers on flight AA11 have the initials A. A. for their names: AA=11.
The fifth AA11 hijacker was the pilot, Mohamed Atta, 11 letters, and AA in last name.
Flight AA11 had 92 people on board - 9 + 2 = 11.
Flight AA11 had 11 crew members - 2 pilots and 9 flight attendants.
The target of Flight AA11 was in New York City -11 letters.
The State of New York was the 11th State added to the Union.
Manhattan Island was discovered on Sept. 11, 1609 by Henry Hudson -11 letters.
Trade Center is 11 letters, and Skyscrapers is 11 letters.
World Trade Center Towers is 22 letters - 2 x 11 =22.
The WTC Twin Towers - standing side by side, look like the number 11.
The WTC Towers are each 110-storeys high.
The first WTC tower hit (North Tower) collapses at 10:28 A.M. -1+2+8=11.
The 1st Fire Unit to arrive to the WTC towers was FDNY Unit 1. Unit 1 lost 11 firemen.
The WTC towers collapsed to a height of 11 stories.
After 99 days of burning, NYC declares the WTC fires are extinguished - 9 x 11 = 99.
The World Trade Center fires burn continuously for 99 days, between September 11, 2001 and
December 19, 2001. The World Trade Center fire is the longest burning commercial fire in U.S. history.
On September 7, 2002, NYC Medical Examiners announced the revised official
death toll from the World Trade Center attacks was 2,801 - (2+8+0+1 = 11).
On the morning of September 11, 2002 the names of 2,801 victims were read at a Ground Zero
Ceremony. It took 2 ½ hours to read all the names.

The plane that hit the Pentagon was United Airlines Flight 77 -11 x 7 =77.
Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11.
The target of Flight 77 was The Pentagon - 11 Letters.
One of the walls of The Pentagon collapses at 10:10 A.M.
According to the FBI, earlier terrorists originally planned to hijack 11 planes.
Thirty days after the attack, the FBI releases a Most Wanted Terrorist List with 22 names.
Mohammed, the prophet of the Muslim faith, died in 632 A.D. - 6+3+2=11.
The Taliban's Manual of Afghan Jihad (Holy War) is 11 volumes.
119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran - 1 + 1 + 9 = 11.
The League of Arab States is comprised of 22 Arab nations - 2 x 11 = 22.
The suspected base of the terrorists is Afghanistan - 11 Letters.
Osama bin Laden's birthplace is Saudi Arabia - 11 letters.
Ramzi Yousef - convicted of orchestrating the 1993 WTC attack - 11 Letters.
The Prime Minister of Israel - Ariel Sharon - 11 Letters.
Deputy PM, & Minister of Foreign Affairs for Israel - Shimon Peres - 11 Letters.

The President of the USA - George W. Bush - 11 letters.
The previous USA President - Bill Clinton - 11 letters.
The US Secretary of State - Colin Powell - 11 letters.
Independence Day in the USA is July 4th - 7 + 4 = 11.
The US President's plane is Air Force One - 11 letters.
George W. Bush's Air Force One is numbered "29000" on the tail - 2+9+0+0+0 = 11.
George W. Bush & Bob Beckwith (11 letters) Fireman #164 - 1+6+4 = 11.
George W. Bush & Saddam Hussein's "11 Long Years"

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

More like a remote controlled android, whose speech circuit keep naffing up.

In your opinion - Although I admit a lot of people agree with you.

Why can't it be terrorists?????

That is assuming that it's not terrorists, which it probably is.

Well I can't answer that one. I can only theorise. If they say it's a plane they can say to Joe Public that they have increased airport security and this kind of thing wont happen again we can take measures to stop it.

However, if it was some kind of military hardware they would have to say to the public it was missile that terrorists bought and it could easily happen again and we wouldn't be able to stop it.

If you were in office what would you rather say?

True, for it to be anything other than a plane all this would have had to be faked. Which I admit is extreme, but not impossible.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

*me gets a telescope to find the flag on the moon* I mean it can't be that hard can it ?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

My surname has eleven letters... Does that mean I had something to do with it?

If you look for it, you will always find coincidences like this.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

;)

http://hometown.aol.com/davepawson/elevens.html

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Look at these images of the Grass & the Pentagon http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/pentalawn.html

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

I reckon the Pentagon was bombed from the inside out, which is why the plane crashing into it was invented. How embarrassing would it be for US Security to admit terrorists got inside the Pentagon with explosives? :shrug:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

So what happened to the plane?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

That's kind of my point... I don't think there was a plane at all....
All the disasters that happen in America which luckily get cuaght on camera by some 'amateur' filming. Why didn't this get caught like everything else? Where's the debris from the plane? Where are the holes in the building the wings would've made? Why didn't the whole of the front collapse under the pressure of a 747 crashing into it? Where the damage to the lawn? It looks like damage from the inside out to me, not the other way round.... Far too dodgy for me..... :erm:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

What about the funerals of the 64 people on board, were they fake?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Maybe they did die on Flight 77. But not how the GOVT say it happend.

Imagine saying they blew it UP? There would be so many things to answer, so they Cover it up

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

No - but do you know the 64 people on board - do you know they were on a plane, and not working at the Pentagon? Do you know they were real funerals, and not staged? :shrug:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Why cover it up though, surely having to blow the plane up to save the lives of people on the ground they could have coped with that. I'm sure the american public would have understood that after what else happened.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Ok, I've tried to stay out of giving an opinion in this thread but I can't let that one pass, so in the words of the late great Graham Chapman, "Stop that - this is get silly" :D

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Errm, but where's the debris? Surely someone would have noticed? ;)

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Sorry but I find it hard to believe that they staged these funerals, got the people, the clergy, the media to go along with it, and so far have gotten away with it.

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Plus why would they cover it up, only for cheney to say it was an option they would take?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Well if i was Bush, and i wanted to invade iraq claiming they might sell missiles to terrorists then a missile from terrorists hitting the pentagon would come in handy. Why would they cover something up that is clearly something the goverment would have loved to happen?

Also where the hell would terrorists launch a missile from? Where would they get it? Its bloody difficult to buy and launch a missle without anyone twigging.

Doubt it, the pentagon is reinforced theres no way a internal explosion would go though 3 buliding of reinforced walls in such a perfect direction

A plane would be going stright and would have enough force

The Questions that need to be asked is:

Who did it?

Why did they do it?

Why would the goverment cover it up?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

ok just watched it and wowee what a puzzle. speechless

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Why are people so eager to believe cover-ups!

I donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t like bush (as many of you well know) but this is pushing the bloody limit. How can people who are so quick to attack governments when they release figures of success or make a speech be so quick to believe a cock and bull story using rather stupid evidence (which since they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t have any actual knowledge of plane crashes they take at face value)

Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t you think that other plane experts would have pointed out if there were a problem? What motive would the government have for a cover up? If even happened one hour after the twin towers where attacked, what kind of chance is that?

This isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t a cartoon you know, when a plane hits a building it doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t leave a hole that is the exact same as the plane with wing marks and everything. Next you will be telling me that people run though walls leaving a exact outline of themselves (like a cartoon)

This is the stupidest, dumbest theory i have EVER heard. At least other theories give a motive and a different story! Not some rubbish that you cant see a plane imprint on the wall or that you cant see the plane on the grass...

Itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s an explosion! When that happens things donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t say intact and also the plane went 3 buildings in!

Its human nature to want to know more but there isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t any evidence what-so-ever to back up this sadistic fantasy from some screw-ball with far too much time on their hands and no friends. People actually died and people have lost dads, mums, children, brothers and sisters you cannot forget the plane that was hijacked, nor the people who died on it. You cannot dismiss evidence if it doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t suit your needs and then make up and distort other evidence if it DOES back up your story.

Give me:

1) A motive
2) What caused the explosion if it wasnâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t the plane?
3) Why did the government cover it up?
4) What happened to that plane and the victims?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Or any real evidence...

Sorry, who's this "they"? The only people I'm aware of who are asserting that the *nose* of the plane went right through are the conspiracy theorists.

As to why only *one* engine penetrated, as a Civil Engineer consider if one hit a structural support and the other just a blank wall, one would lose a lot more momentum than the other, wouldn't it?

:rolleyes: :walk:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

O/T for this thread, but that "test" was actually pretty damn worthless!

The train had a very soft nose, the container was not placed in a situation where there was any resistance to movement (eg a bridge pier, tunnel wall or other such objects), the train "rode up" over the container after the initial impact etc, all of these were *not* representative of the sort of situation container like this could face in a real accident.

See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hentis/Opsma****.html for details.

EDIT: Oh, ye gods! The link is supposed to say "Op smash it" but it's been censored because there's four letters that spell something rude! :rolleyes:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Maybe a near-by zoo put a hippo into a cannon and sshot him at the pentagon:rolleyes:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

The people who come up with this cr@p have no lives of their own.


I don't belive any of the cr@p about JFK either.OR the one about the Titanic.Or the s*dding moon trips never having happened.

Some people just seem to want make an already frightening world more frightening.

Why don't they just tell ghost stories like everyone else. :rolleyes:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

What was the one about the Titanic? That there was a lone gunman on the iceberg? Was he hiding on an icey knoll?

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

it was the angel russ ;) the angel of death ;) :D :p: :disturbd:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

That they switched one damaged ship for her sister ship on the maiden voyage to perpetuate an insurance fraud. :rolleyes:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

omg... This stuff is very funny. Untill you consider the death toll and the impact this will have had on the lives of the friends/relatives :(

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

the US gov faked a boat being sunk by the cubans so they could invade that country or were thinking aobut it, dont know if it happened just proves what they are capable of

and I know what hit the pentigon

it was a pigeon moving at real fast speed

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

no no no no no... it was superman! :p:

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Don't be silly, he's in a wheelchair!

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

I disagree. It's healthy to question what you're told by the authorities and media and your ability to do this without fear is a basic human right which in a lot of places people are denied.


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deliver/document/14736.html

"Repression of Dissent..."
"...internet users are regularly arrested and imprisoned for exercising their basic right to freedom of expression..."

Re: What did hit the Pentagon?
 

Of course not any real evidence, where do ""I"" get the evidence from??? I haven't been to the Pentagon recently. have you?? I, like you, can only make a decision on what is available through the media.

Therefore I have made my judgement on the reports that I have read and I believe there are some things that don't add up. There are definitely anomalies. These anomalies may be able to be explained but from what I have read they have not been explained to my satisfaction

I may well be wrong but I am perfectly entitled to be sceptical.

They is Lee Avey, head of the Pentagon renovation project:

The same Lee Avey also says:

Contradictory statements really. They've constructed a massive steel reinforcement mesh with Steel "poles" as opposed to usual steel bars which would be much thicker. The plane disintegrated on impact yet according to Mr Avey the nose managed to poke through 3 separate structures.

Through the first "tremendously" strong wall and then through at least 5 more other normally reinforced concrete walls.

Oh yes - that makes perfect sense. Obviously the nose of the plane was rubbed down with anti-newtons laws cream before it hit.

As a civil engineer I read the article. The entire wall was reinforced, there are no "blank" walls as you put it. Even in a normally reinforced structure the difference in steel distribution would not be great becauase in an RC structure such as the Pentagon it is likely the walls and columns are all structural. As oppsed to steel structure where the frame takes all the load and the walls are mere "infills".