Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I've having trouble typing because I'm in full riot gear. After the last time I had an idea, I'm not taking any chances.

If Ethernet is better than USB, and I think we all agree it is (?), then why do SACMs have a USB port? Most PCs these days have a NIC or Ethernet built into the motherboard. Given that a NIC can be bought for a £10, probably less if bought in bulk, maybe NTL could provide a free NIC to those who want one? The user would have to install it themselves - or get their 10 year old to do it - and there would be support issues but on the whole it's fairly safe and cheap. Ethernet is far less problematic than USB - no nasty CD needed for a start.

Right then <drops visor> :ninja:

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

the thing is greencreeper usb is a plug and play device, its less likely to cause the consumer hassle, just use the broadjump cd, install the driver, plug the modem in to the usb port and away you go.

with ethernet older pc's do not have ethernet cards, although i have come across pc's which have neither.....

so in a nutshell, usb is more widely available and seen as an 'easier' option than using ethernet, but atleast the modem lets you choose....

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Plug n post more than anything, if forums are anything to go by :D

With Ethernet, once the card is installed, it's a simple case of connecting the PC to a modem. It's a lot less hassle than USB. In fact, if you look at this forum, you'll see that many people have trouble with it being simple - i.e. it cannot be that simple, so they try installing the drivers on the CD and end up in a right mess. There's also the VirtualTruck error, unique to USB, and the fact that the CD comes with a load of junk, including BB Medic.


I would have thought older PCs are more likely to not have a USB port than Ethernet - the latter pre-dates the former.


Your trouble is you're Ethernetist :p:

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

the problem is companies see it as 'less technical' for tehe cunsumer to plug something in, run a cd and it works :disturbd: the extra software is supposed to help you... :erm:


i have seen a fair few old pc's without usb, newer pc's do come with an ethernet card, bu tnot everyone has a ethernet card or usb port.


a what ? yes i support ethernet ;)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

It's good for NTL to give them out for free, they only cost like £3 anyway to buy. It's just the installation that can be a hassle, but even that is easy.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

It would be good - they aren't actually. Maybe I should have put a question mark at the end of the thread title :erm:

They give away the USB and Ethernet cables, so why not a cheap NIC.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

You can see NTLs point, if a technician goes inside someones PC, and it goes wrong, even if its not his fault, its Claims Direct with most people these days.
So having USB means you can stay out of the "box" and out of trouble.
Supplying an ethernet card could have similar consequences if the home fitter fits it, and something goes wrong, ie electrocution or something. ;)
They just turn round and say "NTL said i had to have it". Maybe this isnt the case, but i bet its been considered.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

I have occassionally given customers a credit for £10.00 or so to buy a NIC if they are having difficulties with USB.

As has been mentioned above this is all done at the customers own risk for installing etc.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

So what is actually wrong with a USB connection?I have one and I've never had any problems with it.

However if I had to go ferreting inside my PC I suspect I'd soon have a whole heap of problems.

Incog. :)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

The ease of installation, stability and speed of the USB connection can vary from PC to PC Coggy, not all PCs accept the connection without issues since no 2 computers have the same hardware/ software configurations. I've seen lock ups, crashes, bluescreen issues etc with the USB connection and I've also seen people plug it in first time and it works a dream :confused:
That's the joy of computers, you'll rarely find two totally identical setups once the owner interfaces with it ;)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

I think soon, it will be a thing of the past as far as add on cards go.
Most mobos are now coming with one, or even two, built in network cards. Progress at its best.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

If USB is "less technical", then why when I first got my cable modem and had it connected via USB did the first three techs I spoke to had no idea why it was taking down all of my USB ports after a few minutes, whereas the fourth was able to correct my problem via the ethernet route?

The ethernet was, if anything, more plug and play than the USB connection, no cable modem drivers, just a clean install of XP, let it find the hardware and then connect the CAT-5.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Only while they are working, chipset faillure for on-board hardware can lead to problems when you want to replace them or upgrade to a better type of Network Card.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

the Only reason why USB isnt as good as ethernet is all down to the Extra CPU overhead required to keep the USB port running while the Computer is under stress, say running an online game.

USB componenets are directly effected by CPU availablility, whereas Motherboard components arent so much in respect.
Even better if you have a motherboard wih a built in NIC e.g nforce 2x boards.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Reading from what "just another noob" was saying about NTL speed, i cant see us needing cards that will handle more speeds.
Network cards have been more or less the same over the last few years, and i build a lot of pc's and have not had one with a faulty onboard yet.
I can see what your saying, but the same is true of most onboard stuff.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

I think it's a nice idea but in practice it wouldn't work and would probably give ntl more grief than ever! Fitting ethernet on newer machines is normally really easy but on some older boards I have known ethernet cards not work in specific slots etc etc Customers with no computer experience could do all sorts of damage and then blame ntl as they often do now for their usb issues!

I speak from experience! ;)
Gazza

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Ok, here goes ....

/throws molotov cocktail

:D

This is a brilliant idea on the face of it. It's sad that many PCs don't have Ethernet already, but I suppose this is because Ethernet has been seen as a networking technology of use only to businesses until very recently, with the growth of Broadband. Price competition has long been fierce in the PC market so no manufacturer would want to install hardware they thought the customer wouldn't miss anyway.

You have to remember that the regular posters on here are not in any way representative of the average computer user. It's all very well saying that a 10 year old could easily install a NIC if NTL sent out a free one (I installed a disk drive interface in my BBC when I was 12 or 13!) but not every household has a handy 10-year-old. It would be a recipe for litigation, as someone, somewhere, would be guaranteed to fry the insides of their PC (or themselves) and then claim it was NTL's fault.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

...and besides, don't you still invalidate the warranty on some PCs by opening them?

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

only package PC's have a warranty to void in this situation, If the PC is homebuilt (or my l33t rig for example) I'd install it myself rather than let some NTL tech feck it up, No warranty to Void apart from he individual Part life expectancy dealies.. :dozey:

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Not sure if this is correct but I've always likened USB to a software modem - all the processing is done by the CPU and not by the modem, which is basically just a PCB with a hole to plug the cable into. This introduces variances in performance that are dependant on a huge number of factors, including the CPU, motherboard, BIOS and software installed.

When I suggested the idea I had in mind that it would be entirely optional. There's no way I would expect (or allow :D) an engineer to install the card - that would mean NTL staff interfering with a user's PC, which opens up all sorts of liability issues. I hear what people are saying about not having the skill or a person with the skill, but I honestly think most people these days have either the skill or access to the skill. They could always try PC World :disturbd:

Like I said, some of the commoner questions on this forum relate to switching from USB to Ethernet, which might indicate that once a user is made aware of Ethernet and hears, either via word of mouth or from the Internet, that it's better than USB, they may want to make the switch and see for themselves.

It would be useful to conduct a survey to see if USB really is PnP, or whether, as many seem to experience, Ethernet is more problem free.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Good point. I think it's commercial though - the PC manufacturer wants you to buy "authorised" (read "pricey") components. Years ago I had a AST 486 PC and it was fine for me to install more memory, just so long as I bought it from AST, which I did.

It would be an issue only in new PCs still within their warranty, and it seems that many now come with Ethernet capabilities either as standard or as a user choice - modem or Ethernet.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

basicly what i said a few posts back, you are indeed correct about the CPU hardware factors being the Decider in how the USb modem performs, AFIAK the USB modem does have the Encode/decode hardware inside but has no internal CPU unlike its Ethernet big brother.
the Overhead for USB devices like his can be quite big with lower end systems, gaming enthusiasts would fare better to go with Ethernet for Max online performance, which basicly is the Only application in which Ethernet will outperform USB given its CPU heavy nature.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

I read your post - I was just providing my analogy :)

It strikes me that Ethernet will always out-perform USB because the former was designed for the job it does whereas the latter is generic - it supports all manner of devices. Like I said, there are many issues that will impact on the perfomance of USB. I would guess that running the SACM through a USB hub would cause (performance) problems in some circumstances.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Well we'll soon have you in that case installing a graphics card. The inside of PCs are like lego these days (well more like sticklebricks actually), just find a slot and push the card in.

This whole point of not needing a CD is a bit moot, you may well need a CD to install the NIC driver instead of the USB driver, but Windows may well accept it and install a generic driver.

I'm a bit confused why you are using usb. Your specs listed on the graphics thread

Motherboard Physical Info:
CPU Sockets/Slots 1
Expansion Slots 2 PCI, 1 AGP, 1 AMR
RAM Slots 2 DIMM
Integrated Devices Audio, Video, LAN
Form Factor Micro ATX
Motherboard Chipset SiS730S

Indicate integrated LAN, so you should have a LAN socket on the back of your PC. If you are happy it is back up and running now you have upgraded the OS, and this integrated LAN was made availible on the back of the Machine you might want to consider switching to it.

And the average NTL customer (or any other ISP customer) will be using a package PC from Dell, HP, Compaq, Avent, Evesham. The selfbuild market is small and shrinking, I was going to selfbuild until I realised my local computer shop could do the job for £25 more than me and provide it working, rather than go through a Richard M style fault finding for a week.
Likened, thats pretty much bang on the mark, which being as you generally find the USB and no NIC on older machines makes the who soft processing of IP packets on the processor even more noticable than say on an AMD2400 where their overhead would be less noticable.

NTL USB is not so PnP as you need the install disk, the device driver is not on the PC, unlike say my camera, scanner etc all which find XP device drivers and need no install CD.
Most people find opening up electronic devices daunting, you would probably not think of advising people to crack open their STBs, VCRs, DVDs, TVs, but a PC is somehow different.
IMHO It is a good idea that NTL should offer NIC cards, many people do know someone who will install it, or PC world, or on reading a well put together set of instructions will find it less daunting than they thought and it may well cause less problems, but I found in generall USB did not cause me any problems, I moved off it principaly because I bought a NIC as it was cheaper than a USB hub and I needed more USB ports. It also meant that the PC could be networked through a router. For web surfing (at this point it was not much cop for games), my Celeron 333 did not noticable suffer performance wise from creating the IP packet to send to the USB port.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

i wouldnt say the Selfbuilt PC is a Shrinkging market, For overclockers and gameing enthusiasts its the best option and a very Popular one at that.. although Companies like DELL will allow you to Cusomize a PC for Home delivery you need to Get one of there Techs out everytime to Install some hardware for you which is Stupid really.

Each component has a Manufacturers gaurantee so Building your Own PC gives you MORE right to Replace any parts that are damaged than you'd be able to with a Pre-built package PC (which have a 1 piece warranty, usually open case voids it), Dell would Simply tell you that you voided the warranty for opening the case and wont repair it under warranty, whereas i could send back Individual components with recipts/box's to the manufacturers and get replacements (if i built my own PC).

my £0.2p


(good i dear for a POLL, who has a Homebuilt PC)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Thing is tho when you buy package PCs you dont know what youre getting in them, mostly rubbish components of the cheapest kind, whereas when you build your own (or get someone else to do it, as my friends do to me) You can pick and choose what components you want down to the last stick of RAM so you get more choice and a possibly longer lasting/higher quality system.

Sorry for the off topic btw :)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Staying OT, if polled I would say my machine is selfbuild, I specced every last component, how I wanted the SATA R0 partitioned etc... The difference is I let someone else put it together. I know whats in the case and have a collection of boxes, warrantys, install CDs that those products were supplied with. However most people will buy a package.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

This sin't a new idea infact when I had BB fitted by NTL when it was first available in Manchester the letter asked if we wanted the engineer to bring an ethernet card with him but we had to fit it. I didn't orfer the ethernet card as I had just taken delivery of a new pc and didn't want to void its warrenty so went the USB route. The price for the ethernet at teh time was rather dear as I had seen them in the shops cheaper except for staples who seemed to match NTLs quote.

So all those years ago NTL gave you the choice of connecting by USB or purchasing an ethernet card off them.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

They certainly did, I got that offer too but since I built the PC it was linking to and I was the person who wanted the BB connection I had already purchased the necessary hardware and just needed the STB enabled. Just means that I never got to play with the USB connection on my set up but I have had to sort a few out for friends etc ;)

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

An ethernet card are very simple to fit and only cost £5-6 inc VAT. On the other hand, new PC's come with Ethernet as standard, so given a couple of years this may not become an issue.

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Interesting. I wonder why they dropped the offer? Maybe something for them to revisit now that Ethernet is cheaper and networking has developed?

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Might have been dropped coz noone bought any off them

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

Most likely, but you never know with NTL :D

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I use ethernet, and when I brought the card it was because USB would not work with my win98! Really easy to install and I was a novice then!

Now.. Im actually building my own PCs! Installing the card was what got me started in the self build market. I would'nt say its falling, e-buyer is my guru site! If it shut down I would be very sad :(

ethernet all the way!

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Ohhhhh, I've gone cold reading this. Having the delight of speaking with customers all day every day who can't install BB due to a complete lack of experience with PC's, the thought of them armed with a screwdriver trying to install a card in the PC is just horrendous :Sprint: My worst call ever was 37 minutes with a lady who couldn't even switch her PC on, in the end I apologised and said she would have to get someone to help her as there was nothing else I could do for her.

However if a customer has an ethernet conx I always go down that road as it's so much easier to install and get it working. So, in theory I would say brill idea, in practice thats the day I give my notice in.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

And that is a very good example of why there will always need to be a choice in hardware that is available for use. There will always be customers out there that are new to computers and the Internet who will struggle to move the mouse to the right icon or press the right key let alone open the casing, install a NIC and get the PC back in one piece again.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Free NIC - yeah - great idea.

While they are at it, perhaps they could provide me with free DTV and BB as well .. :erm:

Re: NTL to provide free NIC
 

My dad bought a NIC from ntl when he got his broadband... :D

Guess who he got to fit it :)

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

NO way - ntl should not be offering any hardware (free or otherwise) to it's customers that needs installing onto the customers PC. It's already ntls fault in a few cutomers minds that global warming is upon us and world peace has not yet been achieved - imagine all the compensation claims that would arise when PCs bugger up and the customer thinks it's ntls fault too...... :nono:

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I agree. Although I have been building PCs since the mid 90s and have built all my own (apart from the first, an ESCOM which soon got pulled apart and upgraded) and find it easy, I do know people who think they can do it but can't.

Just imagine it, a NTL tech/CS person is talking the customer through installing the Ethernet card. Suddenly, the customer turns the PC on with the card half out the slot. The they complain there is a slight metallic smell and the PC won't switch on.. What's the poor customer going to do then. Well, some will probably just get a bit upset but accept it, and pay whatever repair bills. Some will sue though.

No. Asking NTL to actively encourage their customers to play about with the insides of their PCs would be wrong.

If the PC has a Network Card or onboard Ethernet Interface, then fine, provide cables for that, and encourage people to use it.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Which is probably where the focus needs to change, from a plug in this USB cable, to a do you have an ethernet port, use that. As Debsy mentions above.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I think NTL needs to consider that. After all, All Macs (e, i or whatever) already come with Onboard Ethernet (have for years actually), nearly all laptops do, as do a lot of desktop PCs nowdays.

Actually, I was at Tottenham Court Road in London on Saturday, looking for motherboards. It's hard to find a motherboard without Ethernet now. I havan't looked, but I would be suprised if most PCs didn't come with on board Ehternet now.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

*agrees with orangebird*

Unfortunately there's a sizeable minority of people out there who will try and blame unrelated PC problems on their ISP. Partly out of ignorance, and partly out of the desire to try and get some 'compensation'

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Some interesting responses.

When I raised the idea I had in mind that the NIC would be offered, but that's pretty much it apart from supporting the software side of install, which I think, from what Debsy says, is done already. NTL would make it clear that they're just providing the hardware and maybe an install manual, and have no responsibility if you wreck your PC (unlikely).

I'd agree that the focus needs to change from USB to Ethernet because (as others have said) not only is its prevalence increasing, but it's actually easier to install than USB for many people.

So it seems that it's :td: for providing a NIC but :tu: for switching emphasis to Ethernet as the "connection of choice".


Welcome drpepper :)

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Im sorry but what a stupid post. Agreed most modern day PCs come with a NIC built in but how could NTL provide a service to people who don't have NICs? I mean who is going to install this NIC in the customers machine because its treading on very dodgy ground ntl engineers opening up customers PCs to install a NIC. What would happen if he broke the machine, who would pay for the repair? So for the average joe bloggs who had no idea about computers and just wants faster internet he would not install a NIC in his computer and would be perfectly happy with USB.

So what NTL have done is perfectly correct providing people with the option of what they want.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Hmm so its not just my posts you think are stupid, thats nice to know. ;)
Its not so stupid when you think of it as a kit.
If you go to adsl with plusnet, they provide an internal modem, [which you have to fit btw] and they say thats your job to fit it.
In a similar way BT send you a modem and microfilters, you have to set the external modem up, then insert the microfilters inline with the modem.
So i suppose its asking the question should ntl supply one as part of a "kit".
If you read most technically minded replies to less tech type people, the first answer is "have you got rid of usb and got a network card yet" when connection problems arise.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Calm down a bit m8. You may disagree with what GC says but that doesn't mean his view is stupid. Looking at it especially in the context of this entire discussion (which I suspect you haven't read, or at least not properly) I think it's quite sensible.

All he is saying is that NTL should encourage people to connect via ethernet where possible instead of USB. We've discussed already at some length the pitfalls of NTL engineers installing NICs in customer PCs. But GC makes clear that while he thinks NTL offering free NICs might be a good idea in itself, he accepts they would have to totally disassociate themselves from the install side of it. Nothing stupid there at all.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

He said in his post "then why do SACMs have a USB port?". That is what I was refering to.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I think he said "If Ethernet is better than USB, and I think we all agree it is (?), then why do SACMs have a USB port?" and went on to qualify the question by saying, "Most PCs these days have a NIC or Ethernet built into the motherboard." Knowing him as well as I do, I think he was asking questions with a view to encouraging debate.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Yes but my point is what would people do if they could not install a NIC?

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

get someone who knows how to do it , do it for them ;) , i would be surprised if everyone in the country doesnt know someone who cant help them :erm: , or have a local place that could do it for a nominal fee :)

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

I once saw an 'expert' pull out an old NIC card out of a computer while it was turned on :)

Then he proceeded to put the new one in... all while it was on...

The expression on his face as it started spewing sparks was priceless :)

This person still 'repairs' computers...

Usually I get them to fix a couple of weeks later - after they've smegged up.....

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Eeeek. I think you can do that with some servers, but on the whole it's best to switch off, flick the switch at the socket, and start work.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

proper scary :disturbd: :disturbd: :disturbd: :disturbd:

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

And you didnt stop him? or was you too busy laughing, haha.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

nah it is good repeat buisness for him :D :D :D :D

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Exactly :)

Besides - he's supposed to be the expert :)

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

A classic case of not reading the thread before jumping in with both feet. Actually, I don't think you even read Greencreeper's first post properly. He asked a question, qualified it, and left us to talk about it. It's called stimulating a debate, and it is not stupid.

Re: Should NTL provide free NIC?
 

Yes. Also, I sometimes start a thread without having a fixed opinion - the point of the thread is to explore the issue/problem and perhaps reach a view or solution. I think many people do that, but interestingly respondents tend to read the opening post as the poster stating an opinion that's either pro or anti, depending on the respondent's view.