NTL definition of FREE
 

Sorry if this has been done before but i really do feel that NTL are taking the ****** regarding their price list on ntl.com. the family pack is quoted at £19-50 yet i have always been charged £29-00. i have just queried this and was told that it included £9-50 for phone line rental. but line rental is free i said if you have the tv package, thats correct said the nice scottish lady on the other end of the phone. the point is that there is no way you can get the family pack for £19-50 so the price list should be amended to reflect the reality....phone line rental is NOT free....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :mad:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Well the cost is the same if a phone is taken or if it isn't taken so it could be said the phone is free as you don't pay anything extra for it.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Yes, which kind of proves daveeb's point - if there is absolutely no way you can get the family pack for £19.50 then that's false advertising.

Daveeb, can you post a link to the exact page you're looking at?

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

It list it as £19.50 on this page http://www.home.ntl.com/icat/television

But it has a note at the bottom.....

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

http://www.home.ntl.com/icat/familypack


to be fair i just noticed that it does say "exclusive of phone line rental which must be purchased with this package"

the phone line cannot be described as free though.

thanks for the replies :)

EDIT gazzae you just beat me to it ;)

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Sounds like NTL are trying to have their cake and eat it. You can't say, on the one hand, that the phone service 'must be purchased' and then, on the other hand, say the phone service is 'free'.

:rolleyes:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Exactly my point Chris, its absolutely and completely free of charge once you've paid £9-50 :disturbd:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Its the problem with the bundled marketing concept.
They want to show a comparable price to sky etc, this means they must show the cost of the pure TV element (as if you have sky you would need a separate phone line), but they force you to take their phone line even if you want to retain BT so it is only free if you take advantage of it and compare to the bundled BT+Sky price.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

if you already have an ntl phone, then you will get the tv package for 19.50

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Yes, but I have BT ISDN, I cannot transfer this over to NTL, so am forced to keep it, I do not want a sat dish and find cable BB very good so want to keep that too, but am forced to pay NTL £120 a year for a phone socket that has never had anything plugged into it. Jeez, thats £600 so far!

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

But what if you don't need or want an ntl phoneline?


I don't see why ntl can't/won't offer the TV packages on their own, without forcing people to pay for a phoneline too.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

kinda off topic i know but while were on the phone line thingy-ma-bob is it possible to get SKY with an NTL phone line rather than a BT one?

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

You don't have to buy a phoneline from BT to get $ky, and you can have a phone from NTL without cable TV, AFAIK. So, you could buy them separately, but I don't think you can get a bundle of any kind.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Yes, SKY just dials a 0800 number so not a problem there.
Just a pity you cannot have NTL DVT and BT phone at a sensible cost.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Actually, there is an offer of for new customers at the moment where if they take up the family pack then the line rental is "free".

For £19.99 per month you can have the fam pack and a phone line for 12 months, after which it reverts to it's normal price.

I work in sales, and never use the line "you get free line rental with a tv pack", it is much more true to say the phone line rental is included in the price, which is what I do.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

So, working in sales what would you do if a potential customer comes your way who currently has a BT Home Highway ISDN line(s) at home. Note this gives 3 phone numbers, two analogue and one digital.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Actually, funny you should mention that setup as I am halfway through dealing with a similar situation in Leeds.

In the case of the one in leeds, the home highway is used for buisness only so they have the 3 phone lines and also have one residential line in the property also. In their case the business lines are there for the home highway only, so basically we can get rid of the 3 lines (analogue * 2 and digital) and do a straight broadband connection and one phone line (for the residential side).

The reason for the delay is that he uses his home highway to dial into his works server, however he is getting his IT guys to set up a connection via broadband, because their work pays for this they have to OK it with the finiance dept first.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I use all three numbers (home, small business and small business fax) so would need two additional NTL lines which makes it cheaper to pay NTL the £9.50 for not using their line than to pay for all the additional lines.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

well it's £7.50 per additional line... i'm not quite sure I catch your drift as to what you are saying though.....

If you use all the lines you would be talking 3 lines (possibly 2) + broadband connection. Again though i'd look at your bill..... talk 24 (with the free calls at any time of the day to landlines) covers upto 3 lines so that could work out for you to help reduce the cost?!

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Most of the calls are international though and IIR I cannot use OneTel (dial 1878) over the NTL line. NTL charge more than 3p/min to the US (and before someone tells me many others charge less).

EDIT - Sorry this is a serious piece of thread hijacking.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I know of a company that can give calls to the states for 1p per min.... a web based company which works a little like one tel and is by far the cheapest company I have seen for international calls.....


http://www.telestunt.co.uk

I always pass this to my customers who make international calls and it suprised everyone as to how cheap they really are!!!

You can use on bt and ntl... although I usually with-hold this information untill they have joined!!!!

This is :notopic: I know, but MODS this might be a good bit of info to place on the main page??

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

http://call18866.co.uk/index2.php - with an 0808 access number for non-BT use - not as convenient as prefix or CPS, but you still only pay for connected calls (unlike telestunt and telediscount, where you pay for the access call).

Also depends if you want to register and have a seperate bill, or just ring and go with telestunt and telediscount.

With 18866 *currently*, Uk calls are 0.5p/min, USA 1p/min and connection fee is only 1p - makes NTL's 3-2-1 tariff and 5p connection fee look sick, SICK, SICK.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

We use call18866.com and our phone bill is about £5.50 a month, no other provider can touch them for price.

Hell's Child can you confirm the £19.99 price covers the whole country and not just one region, and if so how long is it for?

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Complain to the ASA and see what they say. Hey, they know ntl very well, and should have no trouble coming to a fair decision :D

My parents also use call 18866 to call me in Canada. And they are such good value, problem is nobody knows about them.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

What your parents or 18866;) :angel::LOL:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

The International Talk Plan is bundled in with any of the Talk Plans including Talk 24 mentioned by Hell's Child, or available separately with the 321 line for £2/month, and gets you 2p per min to the US, 24/7.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

The first question you should always ask yourself when someone says something is "free" is "how much will this cost me"?

A company that offers "free P&P" has already bundled the cost into their profit margin, so any item will probably cost the same as one with P&P being extra.

"Free" just means you're paying for it somewhere else in the transaction.

(NB Of course this *doesn't* apply to companies who offer Free Leather Wrist Cuffs! ;) )

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I'd not say that too loudly Graham, people will be PMing you their address for you to post them!

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Fair enough, but you have to pay for the bundle to get the International talk plan. Call 18866 is 1ppm with no plan to the US.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Just a quick comment about how 18866 keep their charges so low - they don't have to pay for the installation, maintenance and headcount required to keep a telephone network running. That's how they're so cheap.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

It doesn't really matter to the customer how they keep the prices so low, the fact is that they are so low.

BT, NTL and TW all charge a line rental which pays for the overheads you mention and an initial installation charge (unless there is a special offer on). Call charges themselves are just a licence to print money, particularly connection charges such as NTLs 5p and the non-geographic call costs.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Only if the call is wholey within NTL's network. As soon as it goes outside (e.g. onto BT's network or abroad) then NTL have to either rent space on somebody else's lines and/or pass the call onto another company.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

And..................... are we suppose to feel sorry for BT and NTL?

Thats what you pay line rental for? :confused:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I do feel a little sorry for ntl, although not nearly so much for BT. BT were handed a telephone infrastructure at a knock-down price that was effectively built for them by the State. It would be unreasonable for them to just do whatever the hell they liked with it, hence we have a communications regulator and rules guaranteeing competitor access to the system.

NTL, on the other hand, has bankrupted itself trying to build a new network from scratch using private money. I think it's a little unfair that other companies should be allowed to reap the rewards of that, and a little unfair of NTL customers to be expecting that they should be able to. BT has a universal service obligation, there is no reason why you can't have a BT line if you want to place your calls through a 3rd party.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Thats the thing though, THEY have bankrupted them self, no one forced them to go about buying other companies at extortionate prices.

We live in a free market economy, if a company can provide me with a service cheaper they'll get my business.

For most NTL customers there is a reason they won't take out a BT line to have their calls cheaper, its because NTL force you to pay for their phone line whether you use it or not if you have DTV with them. Why should people have to pay twice?

As an aside my understanding was that you play line rental for the line who you use to make your calls is your business, surely the price of line rental should cover the cost of it to the company? Thats just good business practise, why should they use the revenue from phone calls to support their creaking network? :confused:

The only way Ntl would ever get my phone business back is if they under cut my current phone supplier.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

But the price you pay covers this, I can't see the issue? :erm:

If call18866 can provide calls to the states for 1p per min at all times or 0.5p per min to UK land lines then why cant NTL?, They're a bigger company surely they'd have more clout?

Unfortunately the main company's are just interested in making a big buck fast, where as the smaller companies have to be really competitive to even be noticed.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I can't defend NTL's phoneline policy, it makes no sense. When it's convenient to them, they suggest it's a freebie; when it makes them look uncompetitive with $ky they say otherwise.

No, a phone company has the absolute right to decide who you can call on its lines, except for BT. BT is forced to allow you to call anyone or anything you like due to its effective monopoly status. This is the only way the Government could allow competition initially, by allowing people to dial free numbers accessing other networks. NTL, Telewest, Orange, T Mobile, Vodafone and O2 are under no such obligation. I'm puzzled at how 18866 is being allowed by NTL to run a service via its lines.

As for what the various elements of your bill covers, no business ring-fences certain types of income in the way you're suggesting. It's not so simple as the line rental pays for the line and the call charges are a licence to print money. Every penny they earn, whatever the source, is used to pay staff, post your bill out, maintain the network and pay off their crippling debts.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Thats right and pay my Knapp his huge salary as well as the rest of the "rotten apples" at the top.

Personally I pay my line rental to BT, thats it, I pay them for the line, if they want me to make calls with them they need to be competitive, just like NTL need to be.

Were always being told that NTL is a company and not a charity then they should act like one and become more competitive. None of their products currently is competitive, well maybe their new BB speeds I've not looked at the competition recently but its a sorry state when they cant compete with the other companies in the same markets!

Going back to the topic in hand I honestly think that the was NTL promote their products is criminal, but who am I to complain, I'm only the customer.

Although we wanted to have DTV again and not being able to have Sky here the only choice is NTL, but I wouldn't take it while they insisted I pay for their phone line. They have recently done a deal where they don't charge you for the phone and we took it up, simple. If only this was a permanent thing then they may get some more customers.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

What makes me sick is why NTL have to 'deceive' us with the £19.50 thing. Why not add the exclusive £9.50 phone line to the price? I am sick at myself for missing the 'PS. You have to pay for the phone line' bit at the bottom of the screen.

I have covered the floor in sick now that I have received a hire agreement form from NTL stating that I also have to pay for the rent of a set top box.

So the nice £19.50 a month I thought I was going to pay just suddenly turned into £34.49 a month.

That took a smile off my face!

Thanks 4 letting me vent.... :rolleyes:

Dan.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

The phone line should be included with the £19.50 because all Digital TV packs include the phone line rental.

You should be paying only £19.50 per mounth unless you have any other services like broadband or an extra phone line.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

They can't win either way. They say £19.50 and Sky can compare at £21, but they say £29 and sky start shouting about how they are £8 cheaper (even though you have to pay BT £9.50 a month making the total more).

I thought that any new contract at the mo got telco line rental free for the first 12 months, have a polite conversation with customer service, don't vent your spleen it won't help.

Why £34.49 though, have you added other services?

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Hi,

I have had NTL broadband for some time now and decided to opt for the £19.50 family pack, nothing more.

This is what the Hire Agreement form shows:

Family - £29.50
SACM Digital with TV - Free
Add Digi Set Top Box rent - £15.00
(A)FREELineRnt+DTVFam 1yr - minus £9.51
Total Monthly Charges - £34.49

I feel a little bit conned but I'm sure there's small print somewhere about the digital box line rental.....?

Thanks,
Dan.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

:welcome:


The £15 charge is for the rental of an additional STB....I assume you do have an additional STB?

The "minus £9.51" is the 1year's free phone line rental.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

the add set box rental shouldn't be there, the £15 needs to come off

when an extra box is installed the system picks this up as a "chargeable" box, if this is an additional box for tv then the charge is correct but if you have a cable modem then the charge needs to be removed

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

You have two STBs in your house?

If not call. Sky make a charge for servicing two boxes also, I think it is slightly lower, but that is because you have bought the box and are responsible for its setup and maintainance.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I think you recall incorrectly, I use a One-Tel dialer box on NTL line OK

I know there are cheaper options 18.... etc but the dailer box makes it much simpler for other in the family who would forget to dial the prefix

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Sky is lower? I thought that you had to pay for a second subscription for a second sky digi box? :confused:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

You pay £10pm for each additional box to mirror the subscription.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

So NTL effectively charge £5 for the hire of each additional box.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Do you have to buy the second box too?

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

I assume so

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Yes, though many secondary subscriptions come from users that have upgraded to say Sky + and as you own your box now have the original non + box that can sit in the garage or be used elsewhere.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Thanks for the welcome Matt,

I don't have an additional STB, just a cable modem. I live in rented accommodation but am not aware whether the other guys have an STB, so will find out. I wonder if this would still make a difference?

Thanks,
Dan.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

So you have a SACM and a STB for which there should be no extra charge.

Do you have a seperate bill for broadband as this was not in your original charges:

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Technically (and possibly legally) they should probably have their own contracts (just like they should have their own TV licences), but this could be an NTL billing error.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Hi,

I just spoke to someone at NTL and they said a code can be added incorrectly sometimes and the £15 will be taken off of my direct debit.

Curiously though they could not send me an updated hire agreement form that I have to sign?

At least that's sorted now! Thanks for your help.

Dan.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

No need for an ammended form, it would be the same if you were changing your channel line up, no new forms, just a phone call.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Oh right, it's just that the form they've asked me to sign and send back states that I'm agreeing to the £34.49 price. I'm sure it's not going to pose any problems, but I've never been one to sign something that isn't absolutely correct!

Thanks anyway, you've all been very helpful.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

If you have not sent it back, I would put a line through the charge and a note next to it stating this was agreed as incorrect by telephone on 27/9 with X (if you got their name), then amend the total.

The spirit of the contract is the same, just some minor technical details.

Re: NTL definition of FREE
 

Ok, I will do that. Thank you.
Dan.