Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Ok, I promise I don't intend to get the site into legal trouble here... but I was wondering - why is music piracy so bad?

Even with the sales they are still getting, the record companies and the musicians are still filthy rich and they are getting more money than necessary.

Plus, I believe the price of music are kinda these days is kinda ridiculous.

I dunno why but I'm expecting a lot of heavy disagreement on this subject.Take it easy lol

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

companies loose money thats why, if people can obtain what they want for free they are highly unlikely to buy the CD so artists and record labels need to combat everyone leaning and using illicit means of gaining content.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I don't think the notion of "Music is too expensive anyway" is valid in this case as I think the Clio 172 is a bit pricey but I'm not going to nip out for a bit of TWOCing at my local Renault dealer...

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

music was too pricy and you had to buy albums for one song until itunes now i download legallly

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Simple answer imo refers to your 3rd point....

Get the recoord companies to reduce the price of the retail article and maybe there would be no need for the piracy. :)

Much better to have an original recording in your library than a ripped copy. ;)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

actually downloading helps in some circumstances, i downloaded some songs and albums. then went out bought the CD's or ordered off the net.

cauterize being a fine example.

record compaines are reduing prices, only because CD's could be on the way out, now that legitimate downloading is catching on.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

The difference is that music is information, and information is not a tangible thing but something that can endlessly be copied and redistirbuted with minimal cost and without damage to the original. Whereas something like a car exists on it's own and cannot be endlessly duplicated without bringing in extra physical constructs.

Now, I do think music and film piracy is wrong. People have worked hard to create the music and deserve to be compensated for that. But on the other hand, the Music industry is also wrong. With the growth of the internet, there is a whole new paradigm in the exchange of information that allows a much greater freedom. Sadly, the music industry and other industries are trying hard to control access to this freedom and restrict people to their old business models. They want to control what you see and hear, because they can charge you for that. With the free exchange of information, the artists that they rely upon are able to exist without them and that scares them.

To summarise, the music and film industries should stop flogging the dying horse and embrace the new world order :D

Edit: Personally, I'd much rather have a digital copy of an album that I can transfer around at will than a CD that takes up room and wastes packaging.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Theft is theft, no matter how you look at it and can never be justified.

I wonder how many people that complain about the cost of music know how much each link in the chain of producing and selling it makes. Yes, prices could come down and then make some parts of the chain unprofitable resulting in less choice of where you could buy it. The less choice there is, the less competition there is, and the more chance that those left control the pricing.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

MP3s etc are inferior anyway.

No, CDs are about the right price. It's not just the artists who probably only get 1/15 of the price, the pressing may only cost about 50p but that's only due to the size of the run. Also rights, studio time, equipment hire etc all have to be done- that's even before it's prepared for the shelf when retailers, the label, distributors etc all have to have their expenses met.

Piracy will kill music- if a £'000 or £'000,0 00 run was made and only one copy was sold, and put on the internet, then the label would lose a phenomenal amount of money and would probably go bankrupt. In fact a lot of the major labels eg EMI, Warner are currently facing financial difficulties and having to cut their roster as a result.

And in any case- I'd rather have the original CD not a product of a lossy compression with the case, booklet etc.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Um it's not the music companies I care about it's the artists themselves.They deserve some reward for their work do they not? If music piracy takes place they get nothing for the lyrics they write and the music they compose and the performance they do for the song.Same goes for films.Those who make the product really deserve their royalties.Cutting them out of the loop ISN'T fair or just.

However not much of the sums charged for the products gets to the artists themselves.This is where I get annoyed when the middlemen take more than is truly fair and over inflate the costs according to how much profit they can make in individual countries.Just like the fecking car manufacturers

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Do you really think that downloading would stop happening? HMV recently had a massive sale (some really good priced albums in there), do you think the amount of downloads went down?

I do download music, but i am fully aware that what i am doing is stealing. I do not try and justify it by saying that it is too expensive

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

To be completely honest (for a change :D ), up until the last 5 years or so, and the file sharing explosing on the internat, record companies raped the record buying public.

Cd's came out at about £20 each, about 15 or so years ago. And they stayed at about that price for 10 years or so. Didnt matter that the cost of cd production was reduced, that just ment the industry made a bigger margin. Now a large portion of the music is 'manufactured, tacky pap' and the 'artists' are paid a wage while the record companies make even more money.

It's only with the ammount of music being shared on 'tinternet' that is driving down the price of Cd's in shops.

So in my opinion, feck'em. They had a lisence to print money, and now the public is switchin off and droppin out. :rant:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

And the musicians themselves? where do you stand on them?Don't they deserve to make money?A living?If folk don't get renumeration for their efforts than they will give up.Then who will make the music?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Also most of the dross that comes out these days, I wanna check that the albums are worth getting. So when I see Damien Rice 0 Album on sale for less than £9 it'll be brought. www.cdwow.com does excellent prices for single cd's and I recommend them.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

When you look at the price of music it is the retailer that probably takes the biggest slice of the retail price. For instance with computer software we used to buy games that retailed at £50 for just under £30. That £20 appears to be a lot of profit but you had to sell a hell of a lot to pay rent and rates for your premises and staff wages. If you ordered too many of a product you were stuck with them and had to sell them off at below cost price to get some money back. If you didn't order enough you lost a fortune in possible sales. When you see sales figures for music and computer software you see the number of copies that the manufacturer has sold which may be many times the number that are actually sold retail at full price.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Interesting article on the impact of illegal file sharing....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/sto...265840,00.html

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I do that too, I think they should at least release proper music videos on the net because they're used as a promotional item anyway.
As an example of what "piracy" can do, I recently downloaded three things:

Shakira - Unplugged
Shakira - Off the record documentary
J-LO - Lets get loud live show

Now don't laugh at me :D but I enjoyed those so much I went to Amazon and bought the DVDs because I wanted a proper "real" version I could keep forever.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Same here. If I like something I've downloaded, I go out & buy the CD (well, or just buy it from CDWOW...cheaper than going to HMV)

If I don't like a download....straight to the trash.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

:rofl: at your choices, you see im all for free stuff but if i see a good artist with a good album or song i will buy.

but others dont :erm:

so here lies the problem, how to convince people to buy rather than 'obtain' for free, i suppose with cd prices coming down slightly, the internet, and general mail order prices are better than a few years ago.

now that the digital age is here with regards to the legal downloads competition is there in the sector, but it can still be sometimes cheaper to buy a CD rather than download.

exactly, its the reason i bought Avril's album, bought Evanescences album, Cauterize's album and others

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Music piracy is so bad compared to what? If you're comparing it to murder or strealing physical CDs then of course it is not as bad - but it is morally wrong. You are also lumping all music piracy into one argument, and you cannot compare a casual music downloader with a guy flogging copies of CDs at a car boot sale or on eBay.

If you spent three years writing a book and found there were a thousand photocopies of each print, would you be happy? Would that be OK? What about if someone took your book and re-printed it without your permission and sold it?

How can this be a justification for copying something you don't own? British Gas is getting rich on providing us with gas. It's a business, if you don't want to pay the going rate, don't get the product. Plus the record industry is making far less money now than when you used to buy LPs - and that means that there is less investment in new talent, which turns into a vicious circle.

Again, not a reason take what is not yours. I think the Aston Martin DB9 is overpriced, but I'm not going to break into my local dealer and nick one.

I have never paid 20 quid for a CD. I bought my first CD player in 1988, and CDs we're about the £12 mark then. So now you can buy most new releases for less than £10 meaning that they have reduced in price by about 17%, but in real terms taking into account inflation, if the prices had stayed the same since then, the cost should be around the £16 mark right now.

Whether you agree with the labels and the music they produce or not (and you're making quite a sweeping statement there) you still don't have the right to take someone else's work without paying.

This is very different for the music industry. Dealer prices for major new releases are between £7 and £8. There is a very small margin on music for retailers.

Whilst it is going to be a long process, the music industry has to educate people who cannot see any problem with downloading music for free. There is no such thing as a victimless crime, and if you take music (whether you would have bought it or not) is infringing someone else's work, and triviallising their efforts.

Having said that there is no black and white on the issue of downloading:

Many studies have found that the majority of those who download music for free actually buy more CDs than those that don't. Obviously there are extremes (I know someone who refuses to buy any CDs becuase he can download it all). Then of course the same questions asked in surveys by the music bodies show the complete opposite.

Then there is the fact that not all music is available in all markets on CD - is it as wrong to download a track you love, but cannot get in this country? Whilst still technically unauthorised, I don't personally think it is as 'bad'.

What illegal downloading did was put a very large alarm clock right by the ears of the music industry. But they hit the snooze button, and went back to sleep whilst devoting a minute amount of time to their own online activity planning.

But file-trading grew at an amazing rate - it was new, available to the tech-savvy audience the music companies need to live and spread far more quickly than the great oil tanker of the music industry could turn round.

But it's getting better - most honest and normal people will start to use legal online services where they chose to download, and their choice will improve over time.

There will always be the dishonest and immoral people who chose to infringe artistes' copyright, there always have been way before the internet - but these are people who treat music as a commodity and come up with lame justifications like 'CDs are too expensive'. They are also the people who have no vision - if everyone only downloaded music illegally, there would be no more new music, period.

The question you must ask yourself when downloading illegally is: would I want someone to steal something of mine that I worked hard for, was proud of and was available for sale?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Its a quandry (sp).

As much as I hate giving the record company money, I dont want to rip of the artists either. (It sucks being an honest sort). As several other posters have said, I'll dl a track/ albumn, and if I like it I'll buy it. Once i've bought the CD, I'll copy it to disk, and then keep the original in top nick.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

same here.

i dont think this is bad, atleast buying the CD's is helping artists, comparisons cannot be made to carjacking or things like that, it goes on case by case.

some want to buy are not prepared to pay the money because of cost.

overall the quality of music had declined so finding a decent artist/song is hard, and i hope compaines dont blame declines in sales for that, they seem to spend heavily in promoting the likes of the pop idol contest winners and such alike. :rolleyes:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I think you could probably most closely compare it with receiving stolen goods.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Yet Piracy isnt new.
As a kid I regularly Taped the top 10 off the radio.
I taped computer games, I taped the NOW albums off my friends on both vinyl and CD.

The difference now is that its much easier to do. I don think that it is as big a problem as record comapnies would have us belive and the RIAA is harming them by its actions.

Alienating the people you want to buy your product isnt the best way to get them to do so and walk away from Piracy.

The bottom line is that piracy can not and will not ever be stopped.
Whether you view it as right or wrong I doubt many people at some point in their lives have NEVER commited an act of piracy or watched a pirated movie etc.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

The efforts of the RIAA and their ilk in attempting to prevent piracy are only going to make me less likely to buy CDs. Why should I pay them money for a CD that violates the accepted standards, with the associated risk that it may not work in the device that I choose to play it on? If a the packaging for a "CD" states that it has copy-protection then it simply will not get bought. If it doesn`t state it clearly and it does have copy-protection it will get taken back to the shop as mis-sold.

If they want me to pay for music then they can stop attempting to dictate what devices it can and cannot be played on.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Piracy isn't new, but I would think that only a very small percentage of people have engaged in piracy or watched a pirated movie.

There are millions of pirated copies of films and music tracks, but I would like to bet that a large percentage of them are never watched or listened to. They have just been downloaded because it was easy to do so and had the thrill of getting something for nothing with little likelyhood of being caught.

Can piracy ever be stopped? Who knows what methods may become available to cut down dramatically the possibility of copying music and films. The more that it can be cut down, the more the chance that the industry will clamp down on the ones that continue to break the law. How many people will continue to risk having a large fine, their computing equipment seized and destroyed and getting a criminal record for downloading / uploading things that they never watch, listen to or use?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

For all of the stuff you downloaded?

Ok :confused:

Agreed-they have been milking the cash cow far too long. :nono:

It's all about freedom of choice, but just because you don't have the choice you want, that doesn't make it right to steal what you want.

(Not you specifically Kronie, was a generic 'you'!) :angel:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Actually, I did read a while ago that despite what the Record Industry is claiming, according to their own figures, sales in 2002 were at the same level as 1992. Seeing as file sharing networks didn't exist then, I would suggest that if the music industry is not selling enough then they have problems elsewhere.

Possibly something to do with the amount of manufactured & copycat bands around at the moment.

Regarding song downloading, I don't do it much, but when I do download a song I like, I will try and buy it on disc. Admittedly, that's not always possible as the version I download may be a rare remix, or an old song that is no longer available. Even then, I do know a good second hand/rare records shop that I often buy discs from (Beanos in Croydon if anyone else knows it).

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

:notopic: but i feel that music these days isnt the same as what it used to be in the 1980's and 1990's.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Having live through the 80's (unlike yourself) I can categorically state that quality of music nowaday's (if you don't chain yourself to MTV or TOTP) is excellent in comparison, now the 70's, that's a different matter.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Well when you think about it, its not just music piracy etc, ever worn cheap copied clothing from abroad, bought cheap perfume/aftershave, ever taped a song off the radio?

Its all piracy and I'm sure lots of people have done something even innocently that is covered under piracy laws.


Also if I own a vinyl 45 of a song, Am I entitled to download a version off the net and burn it to CD?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

What about the 60's then? That's what makes me laugh about all those people who say they only download music so that they can see what it is like before spending their money on something that might be cr@p. Who needs to download Beatles, Stones, etc. tracks to see what they are like before buying? :rolleyes:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

i thought the music in 90's is far superior to anything we have now. The music then made me really excited to hear it while only a few bands these days do it.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Depends on what you listen to now, and what you listened to then..

There's excellent music around now, just as there was in the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s and so on..

There's also crap in each decade..

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Agadoo was released in the 80's, I've not heard a single song since that has come quite so close to inducing vomit.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Wasnt the birdie song by the tweets released in the 80's also? :disturbd:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Don't forget Joe Dolce and Renee & Renato

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

True, although I personally think that "Everything I do" by Bryan Adams and anything by Westlife are also close to inducing vomit.

I could also mention the Teletubbies & Aqua (Barbie Girl must be one of the worst, and most disturbing songs ever released).

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

scastle --- nono, i think "witchdoctor" by the cartoons wins the most disturbing award....

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Yep.. Agreed.
Maybe I should start a new thread "What's the most disturbing/sickmaking/crap song you have heard"?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Barbie Girl by Aqua?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Good idea-let's get this one back on topic. :)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Done. here

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I would agree that some copy protection methods are somewhat of a white elephant, however I have never found a copy protected CD that I cannot play in my PC, without resorting to programs designed to bypass the protection.

It was a knee-jerk reaction by the industry to try and deter casual copiers - but you will find that the next generation of music formats will include protection that will allow you play your music on all devices, but will attempt to prevent digital mass piracy.

Technically no! You bought that song on vinyl, if you want a digital copy you should go and buy the CD according to the law. But the new European Copyright Directive does make some allowance for 'fair use' (unlike the American version) which whilst not permitting you do so, does suggest that it should be tollerated.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

even if they do succesfully copy protect a cd then all you need is a normal player and line out or digital out and a soundcard , i cant see em ever getting around it :erm:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I think the problem with any copy protection is that inconveniances legitimate users of the music, software or whatever while somebody who copies stuff to sell will often just find a way round it. For example, anyone remember the games where when you first ran the game, you were asked to enter a certain word (so the game would ask you to go to page 151 of the manual, and enter the fourth word on the third line).

I personally consider any CD that won't run on a PC (or Mac) or asks for software to be installed before you play it (even if it doesn't actually need the software) to be an incoveniance, unless that software is some sort of multimedia content (pictures or video).

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

You have a point there, just look at the starforce protection, it looks liek it does more harm than good and it allegedly spyware also!!!!
To play the game you have to install it, you do not have any choice.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

what about bootlegs... you can't officially buy these and so you the only choice is to download them. if i could buy them from EMI etc then i would as i want a proper CD in the non loss less format..

what about artists i've discovered through downloading and then bouhgt their album.. without the internet and P2Ps i woulld never have bought these CDs..but i'll admit it doesn't happen for all stuff i download..

what about the fact that now the record companies want to stop be ripping a CD i have purchased to put onto my PC \ ipod \ mp3 player etc to listen to when i may already have the vinyl, tape , CD and 20th anniversary CD with one new photo or old track added

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

An excellent post overall! :tu:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

What would you think if you were a professional photographer and made a living out of wedding photography and you only sold one copy of each photograph because your clients were copying the one sold for friends and relations? I bet you would be mad as hell and looking for some way of stopping them doing it.

Theft is theft and there is no justification for it however much you think there is.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

suppose after that had bought it i said it's now available on different paper and in a different size with higher quality and made them pay be again for a photo.. suppose then after a few years i issued a 5 year anniversary edition that was exactly the same but had a tiny bit of gold leaf on it

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Everyone knows how it can be done, but it's a little like security on your car. You have the locks, steering lock, immobiliser, alarm and maybe some other features - every one is designed to make it that little bit more difficult for someone to run off with your car - but if someone is determined enough and has the time they will still do it.

Bootlegs are just that - bootlegs - they are tracks that have been recorded without the permission of the copyright holders and often sold at a profit to the seller - meaning that the people who should be getting paid are not.

A week argument in my opinion. You can 'discover' far more diverse artists and recordings through the Amazon website than you can through something like Kazaa - the reason being that Amazon suggests artists you might like based on your browsing and buying habits - wheras with Kazaa you are searching for something specifc. Granted if you searched for an artist you knew and found some tracks you liked but didn't own you might go and buy the album they were from - but again you could do the same search on Amazon, hear preview clips and decide to buy it without denying the artist you like of what is due to them.

If the release is that similar to the one you already own, why buy another copy? Such releases are a marketing exercise to try and tempt the people who don't already own the album to buy it.

Again, why would you want to own something that was so much like what you already had?

To be brutal here, it sounds to me that you are trying to justify reasons why it's OK to steal someone's copyright. Imagine someone found a bit of paper on which you'd drawn a picture at school (unlikely I know, but work with me on this).

This person decided that your drawing was worth money, so put it into print on thousands of posters. Now when you found that someone else was making money out of your work, you'd be pretty miffed right? This is exactly the case with music piracy - you're copying someone's work, sharing it with others, and someone is making money out of it.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

On second thoughts, the companies don't exactly think of the consumer in terms of deletions do they?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

so they should keep every album available for ever more then , i dont think so somehow , it would be like vauxhall still making parts for a viva , totally out of the question :erm:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Actually, kazza etc have been shown to help boost the sales of CD's in many cases.
The majority of people who use P2P are not the sort of people who will go out and buy CD's anyway.
The money assumed to be lost through P2P assumes that every download is a lost sale, when the majority are no-sales.

Some economists did indepth research into this, and came to the conclusion that if you assume every download is a lost sale, then a $6 a month tax on broadband connections in the US would cover this.
They also pointed out that the downturn in CD sales started to occur long before Napster ever came about.

Now, if we are correct in thinking that buying pirated CD's and DVD's from your local market helps fund terroism/prostitution/drugs smuggling (course other than terrorism, those are self financing industries) then using kazaa and downloading for free actually helps in the fight against those things by denying them funds :D

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I'm talking about non-mainstream music- obviously it would be silly to have trash songs kept for posterity.

However other music where the same music is open to different interpretations eg classical it's nice to have different recordings available...

I do like *different* kinds of music and don't mind as long as it's listenable.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I MIGHT download a song that I can no longer buy anywhere either by ordering or looking through boot sales or from any other source,but not newer recordings.However that would be the only occasion that I would consider it .If however I can get a legit copy I would prefer to do so.

Mind the number of songs/albums that relates to is entirely minute in number.Though that list is increasing year by year as I attain the status of old biddy(thanks to kronas ;) )

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

There are also a lot of albums you can't get in this country that are extremely difficult to get imported too.

Bone to pick by the Gone Jackels for instance (saught after by anyone who's played Full Throttle http://www.obsidian-asylum.net/forum...s/musik010.gif)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Isn't the second line contradicting the first line?

Even if not, it is still not right to download music without the copyright holders receiving what is due to them.

There are very few legitimate reasons for downloading music illegally - but I am amused by people keeping on trying to justify their actions!

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

ok so if you had it your way i would not be able to download a track... ok in that case every CD i just bought over the past few months (with the exception of one) can all go back, and yes im buying no more CD's or using any legitimate means im not prepared to waste money on something that MAY turn out to be utter tosh!

you hear one song on some albums the rest can be drivel, i want to hear the rest before making a purchase.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

There's nothing stopping you using a paid for download service that offers free previews of each track.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

i had a look in to a few they all wanted card details, im not prepared to go in to the hassle of canceling something after the trial expires.....

i know how some compaines work and im not willing to commit myself to a service like that.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

And there's the crux of it .. it's less hassle to steal.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

stealing ? i dont i have the CD's to prove that.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

If you walked into a shop, picked up a CD and walked out with it, without paying, it's theft, if you went back the next day to pay for it because you liked it, it's still theft, you still committed the act of stealing.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

:dozey:

im sick of the pathetic analogys, this is diffarent the content is there, people either choose to use p2p or not its the persons choice some buy some dont, its a fact, learn to deal with facts and stick with the subject instead of using baseless analogys, each case has its merits, yes if you download and dont buy its wrong, however if you download and buy there is nothing wrong with that.

another CD sale, more money for the record company and artist.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

You're sick of them because you have absolutely no argument to counter the basic fact that you stole something, regardless of whether it was there for you to steal or not. Not for one minute did I say it was wrong to steal them, though, in principal obviously it is but as usual you get all childish, if you can't hold a mature conversation, do us all a favour and shut up.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

stole what ? yes according to the all revealing RIAA who remember are looking to make money as well, introducing measures to defend 'their clients'

it is stealing if you download and dont buy simply put.

im not the one telling people to shut up or calling them childish so you decide which one of us is, im just having a debate.

cant handle it ?

come up with better arguments come back to me then.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

According to the police who the RIAA wished, would arrest you, according to the court, who would convict you.



No, it's stealing whether you buy the CD or not.

You are childish, and I said, if you'd like to re-read, if you can't hold a mature conversation then shut up, you've obviously not managed to master either of them, perhaps you should have another go.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

the people they have convicted so far are parents whos children were downloading music, they thought it was not a problem until they saw that it was many people dont realise that its wrong.


just because the RIAA says it is ?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

No, because the British judicial system say's it is.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Most online music stores don't actually charge anything to the card unless you buy a track. The two I have tried are MSN Music Club (powered by OD2 so all OD2 services should be the same) and iTunes. I have to admit, I was a bit wary of giving OD2 my card details, but Apple had them already as I have purchased stuff online at the Apple Store, so although I needed to re-enter them, I felt safe.

In answer to everyone else: Have you ever taped anything from the Radio or TV because, although tolerated, I think that is still counted as theft?

Actually, I looked up the copyright act a while back, and as I understand it, but downloading music isn't actually considered theft, but is considered to be recieving stolen goods. It's still illegal, so I am just being picky.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

and they have actually prosecuted for this :dozey:

next you will be telling me you never copied a CD or downloaded an mp3 in your life :dozey:

thats what i meant by the above.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Yep, was typing my post when you typed yours.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Not that I know of in this country, [Mod Edit(Nemesis): Inflammatory Comments Removed].

[Mod Edit(Nemesis): Inflammatory Comments Removed]

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

It is nothing to do with me getting my way. I work in the music business, I know what goes into the production of the music, some of which by your own admission you have downloaded, some of those you don't also own on CD. If everyone did what you did - there would be no mainstream releases - period.

iTunes Music Store is a FREE program, it's also a great way of keeping digital copies of the music you own. You do not have to put in any personal information whatsoever to hear quality previews of nearly 3/4 million songs.

Also Amazon offers tens of thousands of tracks for preview.

Also you can walk into ANY Virgin Megastore, walk up to the counter with any CD in the store and they will put it on a listening post for you.

Whilst it may not be as morally wrong to download a track illegally then go and buy it - firstly it is still under copyright laws a breach of copyright. Second, why do you keep the inferior digital files you downloaded if you've bought the CD?

The rules of the game are simple - you're not allowed to download unauthorised copies of music, videos, books, artistic work, whatever - however you try to justify your actions you're in breach of copyright. Peer to peer systems are not the way to find new music, and you do not have any rights whatsoever to download music from such sources, even going on to buy the album later is no justification under the laws of copyright. And let me remind you that the rules on copyright are governed by the Copyrights, Designs and Patents Act (I think I have got them in the right order) and not the RIAA, which isn't even based in this country.

I also don't believe, Kronas, that you don't possess illegal copies of music on your system. You're telling me you delete EVERY track that isn't on a CD you don't buy? Pull the other one!

There is provision in the act for personal limited time use of VCRs for taping stuff of the TV. I can't remember how long you're allowed to keep them for now, it's either 30 days or 90 days - something like that.


You may be right, but I have never heard of this. Whilst counterfeiting is a criminal offence, copyright infringement is a civil offence - downloading music from unuthorised sources is infringement of copyright - and would leave you open to being sued by the IFPI or BPI, as well as MCPS (MCPS handles the mechanical copyright on behalf of the music publishers).

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

andygrif, what you say is true. However it is described, and even if it is morally right (debatable, but the position some posters here seem to be adopting), downloading copyrighted material via unauthorised sources IS illegal, so anyone who does it is laying themselves open to legal action.

I would be interested to know if there is actually *proof* not just statements by the RIAA (who seem to be busy telling everyone that if users are free to do what they want with PCs the whole of America will go bankrupt) that p2p downloads have actually harmed sales . I have seen an article online (which I can't currently find the link for) that says this is not the case (CD sales in 2002 were almost the same as 1992).

I have to admit, I personally don't download from file sharing networks now (I did in the past). Partly because it was to much hassle (I don't like waiting three days for something to download only to find it is the wrong file), but mostly, because (and this is either going to sound arrogant or holier than thou, either way, I apologise) I do believe that the artists should be rewarded for their work.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Well way I see it is: the more and more people who download illegally the artists may be rich they have a guranteed percentage but I belive its the companys who are feeling the pinch, I agree with sites like the new napster pay to use but works out cheaper for a entire album


I mean I heard of people being jailed and fined over £1000 for illegally downloading MP3 and software files, and with cost of 1 Internet connection 2 CD-r to burn ur music onto 3 Printer ( inc cart's ) to print out covers 4 cd box and 5 ur personal time and trouble finding the tracks, it will add up to more stress and similar cost give or take 2-3 quid.

I think its easier to either pay for a single track online, or just buy the album and support the few good artists we have left.

:cool:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

So, ignoring the gratuitous personal ad hominem attack, the actual answer to the question is "no".

Here's an interesting article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3545839.stm

"The European Parliament has passed an anti-piracy law, covering everything from handbags to music downloads. [...]

"The European law was shepherded through the European Parliament by MEP Janelly Fourtou, wife of Jean-Rene Fourtou who is boss of media giant Vivendi Universal."

Hmm, would it be cynical to suggest a conflict of interests??

Also: "In November, the EU copyright directive came into force in the UK which put many things people are used to doing with music, such as copying tracks to an MP3 player, fell into a legal grey area."

Should you have to buy the music every time you want to use it on a different playing system?

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

i know about the production time the effort, the mixing, the directing of music, the hours of time spent building a good sounding track, the hours spent creating the lyrics, getting them in song with the artist, manafacturing etc.

so what if music is downloaded, i already publicly stated if you download and dont buy then its wrong.

if i decide to listen to a whole album then go out and buy it i see no problem with that.



previewing tracks is futile you cannot get a grasp of what the song sounds like properly lyrically and the music as well as instrumentals....

not every track is previewable.

i dont have a virgin megastore here.


who said i did, personally i have deleted them, although because i want to keep the CD's in pritsine condition i have taken the step of ripping them from CD to a file so i can hear it when i want, keep the CD in excellent condition.

hot air.



:rofl: and your telling me everyone else does that ? your telling me you have done that :rofl:

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

As far as I know a recording group or company could invoke a writ which is granted by a court, would technically the Police could come round and seize your equipment and any infringing copies, but not something you could be arrested for (unless you're counterfeiting) - but I might be wrong on this, so will bow to your knowledge of the subject.

This is a moot point, I agree. There is evidence as I eluded to earlier in this thread that P2P'ers in general buy more music than non P2P'ers. There is also research that says this is not the case - as ever, it's all in who you ask and the questions you ask them I guess. As a matter of fact, there were more albums sold in the UK in 2003 than ever before - but single sales were down. This is not the case, however, in most other markets, particularly Asia which has a P2P culture that is, for want of a better word, rampant.

I think it is a little, especially as Vivendi were one of the first groups to see the marketing opportunities in P2P networks - but I take your point. As mentioned earlier, unlike in the US, the EU Copyright Directive has urged leniency for fair use of such systems - which overall I would agree with.

And the rest! The millions spent on marketing, logistics, retailers' margins, royalties for composers and performers.... When you download a track you are not just hitting the music company, you're affecting the guy who works behind the counter in HMV, the guys in manufacturing plants, the suppliers of the manufacturing plant, the guys who drive the CDs to the stores, and so on. They say there is no such thing as a victimless crime, and they are right.

Your problem is that you do not see the bigger picture. All you see is Kronas downloading the odd track now and then. But there are millions of Kronases around the world, and it naive to suggest that these lost Pounds have no effect. You are also, by using things like Kazaa, putting the money in someone elses pocket (the people who make the software, advertising etc) who are then denying the same people who are due it, any such payment for you ripping off their work.

You've also said that you have done just that.

Pedant.

Fact. I don't make the rules, I'm only telling you what they are. The laws are made through the normal governmental process. If you don't like them complain to your MP.

No, I'm telling what the law says. Are you an anarchist?

I've already said that it might not be as morally wrong to download music you would buy. I have already said that P2P can be a marketing device (in fact there is now a very good legal one for music, and many more designed for remote business working). But I am only reporting the rules, you choose what to do with them at your own risk. Just like I know what the speed limit on the motorway is, and if I choose to exceed it then I know I might get nicked. Simple.

What I don't like is people who try to justify their actions with lame arguments - you're breaching someone's copyright, however you might dress it up. It doesn't matter whether you buy the album in the end or not in the eyes of the law.

At least be man enough to say what you do without trying to make excuses for your actions - I'd have some respect for that.

By the way, the BPI are at your front door now ;)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

im well aware of that.

i do

now if im downloading a track/album i like it then go and buy it, although others download purely because its free, that is wrong, what more do you want me to say!!!! :rolleyes:




when have i done that, read my replys :erm:


nowhere around me or indeed the virgin megastore in the next town has a kiosk to listen to albums.


the likes of the RIAA put pressure on the governments with lies, what about CD sales now eh ? they are going to fall do you know why ? more people are downloading through legitimate sources, ofcourse there is no accurate way to measure CD sales decreases as of now because of this.


fair do's im aware of what the laws are as to your second question no!

i said buying the CD after you have heard all of the tracks and are happy is ok.

this is not a motorway, this is about breaching the rules, the laws, some which are pushed in to government to appease media giants.

according to the law yes, but there are plenty of unfair laws, if they try and play hardball sales will go down further.

i didnt make excuses just put forward my opinion and moral thinking.

i was wondering what that knocking was :)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Actually, I was trying to make the point that, however you look at it, downloading copyrighted music from unauthorised sources is illegal. Obviously, you are saying the same thing, so we do agree.

You've possibly got more knowledge of it than I, I am not a lawyer, just have read through the Copyright Act (sad, I know).

Asia had a massive piracy problem before P2P was even invented. I think this is as much to do with the various governments previous, slightly more relaxed attitude to piracy as P2P. Not that I am saying P2P is entirely blameless (I don't think it is).

IIRC single sales have actually been dropping since around the late 80s.

There are other possible reasons for the downturn, that the record industry seems to largely ignoring (maybe they are not, but they appear to be):

The worldwide economic climate: Throughout the nineties, various parts of the world (us and the states included) were bouncing in and out of recession. This could cause a drop in sales as, in a recession, people tend not to buy luxury items, and albums and singles tend to be regarded as luxuries.

Manufactured music and endless Oasis/Blur/Radiohead clones: There seems to be very little original music played on the radio and television now. The record companies only really seem interested in plugging the latest manufactured band. Even their attempts at plugging the bands seem formularised (form new band of 5 members, male or female, cover old classic song, create a video with a lot of computer graphics & put them on TV, then arrange a tour). Although some these bands are actually good, in general, I think people are getting bored with them.

It's also possible that the number of compilation albums is affecting single sales. Why spend £3.99 on one single with maybe three or four tracks (usually remixes) when you can spend £15 and get 30-40 of them..

In short, I believe that P2P sharing is one problem for the record companies. I don't believe its the only one (or even the main one) though.

@kronas: Kronas, where do you buy your albums? If it's a small independant record store, you may be able to persuade them to buy a cheap CD player and headphones to allow you to sample tracks.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Well done for admitting your crime Kronas!! By the way to be recipricolly pedantic your nearest Virgin Megastore is less than 10 miles away!

Scastle, agree about Asia - there is a different mentality to piracy over there, like the endless counterfeit VCDs and now DVDs that stem from Hong Kong and the like.

I would also agree about pricing. I've said a lot that now that the cost of albums has dropped, people will buy less singles. Also with the Now and Hits series of albums, you're often getting new releases that way - which is a far cheaper way of getting your music. The record companies are partly to blme for this - they experienced less single sales, so looked to compiltions as a way of marketing their new releases. This means that people will be even less singles, and it becomes a vicious circle. You can get to No.1 in the singles chart with less than 30,000 sales now - that's 0.05% of the popultion buying a copy!

I have no idea why anyone would pay nearly 4 quid for a CD single. In my opinion singles should be releases with one song or several versions of one song (no more B sides) for 99p. This would stimulate the kids into buying more singles.

I also completely agree with you about peer to peer not being the only problem. They are putting more emphasis on it than I believe they should be - there is no doubt that organised music piracy, in the form of counterfeit goods, is far more serious in terms of monetary cost to the labels, but there are a lot more casual P2P downloaders, and they are easier to find than organised gangs that often operate in other countries.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Bradford, just over 5 miles away ;)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

I missed this the first time through, but I just *had* to comment!

How many people are a) aware of this and b) even if they were, would take *any* notice of it?

Has anyone *ever* been charged with an offence under this provision?

Should I (and probably practically everyone who owns a video recorder) go through my tape collections and delete 90% of the contents because it was recorded more than 90 days ago??

Somehow I don't think so...

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

No I doubt most people are aware of it, and of course it's pretty unlikely anyone has been prosecuted with doing it - again it's down to fair use and whilst the rules have to be made, I would doubt anyone like the BBC would be overly worried about it - but they retain the right to the copyright and could seize the infringing articles if they so desired....who's that at your door Graham? ;)

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Someone who wants to waste a large amount of public time and money persecuting, sorry, *prosecuting* people for trivial offences.

Re: Why is music piracy so bad?
 

Well you could look at it this way - I would not expect that the BBC would prosecute someone (through the courts of course) for retaining your favourite episode of Only Fools and Horses on VHS - the main reason being that you've already paid for it through the license fee.

Elsewhere I was shot down in flames for suggesting that file sharers should pay a 'license fee' for the right to download music - it would be a far better option than penalising legitimate music buyers by limiting their choice of where to play music.

Whilst this may work in principle, I don't think it is the best solution, becuase in doing so you make music into a commodity, which is exactly what file sharers do - and we should be trying to extole the virtues of choice and creativity - and paying accordingly.