blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

link

makes interesting reading , i wonder if whites are more prone to being stopped in asian countries , please keep it civil guys and gals , theres a mod watching :disturbd: :disturbd: :D :D :D :D

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

from studying sociology like 4years ago, the percentage of coloured people stopped to whites has always been higher.

but maybe there is a islamphobia now.... due to 9/11 and the western portrayal of it all and the stuff which happened during the iraq war

but we shouldn't tar all people with the same brush

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

To be honest I find this silly - we have a situation where groups of Muslims have committed terrorist attacks, we've been told that the uk is a target, by said Muslims. What do they expect the police to do? - stop Australians?

A lot of muslims are 'non white' so it makes sense to check these people, the same way if we were under threat from white Christians, I'd expect to be stopped as well, even though i'm not a Christian.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Jesus, Mary and Joseph... Any excuse to call us caucasian Brits racist....

I don't mean to sound like a complete nationalist here, but if the Islamic Human Rights people don't like it, why don't they just sod off back to their Islamic country of origin...... :rolleyes:

pmsl - bloody true though.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

IF we were to be under threat from attacks by Chinese midgets then I am sure that they would be stopped in the streets a lot more wether they were going to cause any problems or not.

If they were not checks in place there would be an even bigger outcry about us not having a good enough security.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I agree wholeheartedly, but

<Flippant Remark Mode>
I know a lot of people that would like to tar (and feather) the same Bush tho'.
</Flippant Remark Mode>

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

:LOL: that made me laugh

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

:clap: :tu: Bloody well said!

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Theres also a lot to be said for the fact that if an Asian is stopped they complain about it, if a white person is stopped they are embarrassed by it and its not recorded in any statistics.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

its no suprise there is such a big gap in how many asians are stopped compaired to whites, statistics tell half the story, the other half is what lord ahmed said in the article:

yes he was refrering to the traditional asian dresses, and im sure youth's are also stopped. most are proberbly harmless, yes i know before anyone says that 'you never know' but are the police stopping people because they look a certain way ? a certain colour ?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Well said. They have a fine line to tread.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

What about when Blacks get stopped and they threaten the police with racial harassment?

I have witnessed this first hand by a black person who had been drinking and driving, they may not of been over the limit but she ripped into the two police officers asking them why they weren't stopping all the cars with white people in.

She chose not to see that they had stopped her because her driving was so damn bad. (used to frighten me senseless)

PS> They just apologised and let her go without any further questions, I'm sure they would of done the same to me. :rolleyes:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I think figures and reports like this can easily be mis-intrepretted.

My dad used to be a PC in Holloway, North London. White people there were very few and far between. If my dad tried to stop and search more whites than non-whites, he'd have to try very hard to find them for starters.

The figures aren't really explained, but it looks like they are based on the whole country. Well, the figures become unfairly weighted because of the cities. Out in the country, where areas are predominantly white, stop and searches just aren't carried out because crimes that warrant them aren't carried out there. Crimes like that (mugging, shop lifting, threatening behavior etc) are carried out in the cities. What doesn't help is that non-whites tend to be poorer, less educated, etc, and more likely to result to mugging, etc. Not even including the fact that non-whites drastically outnumber in urban areas.

It is no wonder the figures come out so bad, but it is not because the police are trying to make life hell for non-whites. I mean, if the police are told to be on the look out for a black/asian guy in a leather jacket who mugged someone for his mobile, they can hardly stop and search white people with leather jackets. Most of the time, they don't get a choice in the colour of the person being stopped. Also, if some black people are looking suspicious but some white people are just talking minding their own business, then what choice does he have?

I don't think it is fair to say this is "Islamophobia" because the police have to re-evaluate who poses the biggest threat to this country. I think if race hate attacks (asian people getting bricks through windows, graphiti with p**i, etc) then yes, I would say Islamophobia is getting worse, but there has been no mention of it?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

ok, so you have a black person talking in another language right ? does that give an officer the right to stop and search, think about it.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I'll have to ask my dad what equated to "probable cause". I don't think they can just stop people randomly, I might be wrong though, but i'll ask him later. Bear in mind he retired in 98 though, things might have changed.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Not sure how to view this....on one hand you'll have people who will say that when more blacks and asians get stopped, it's obviously "racism", but if the figure fell and more whites were being stopped, you'll get people saying it's just "political correctness" and that the officers are too worried about being called racist if they seach blacks.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

a no win situation i reckon :(

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

i for one would not say that, i would welcome figures near to each other in percentage terms.

in the interests of fairness!

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Are you talking about overall percentage, or percentage in the area that they are being stopped in.

It's a big difference.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

there is a diffarence, i expect a percentage to be higher overall in specific areas where a large amount of the black population are resident, i was talking about stats in general, but a breakdown would suffice....

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I bet you would be shocked by the figures in my area!

Living in a Welsh valley town I can probably count the number of Black people on one hand, and the number of Asians on the other. I do however find it slightly amusing (Perhaps not the right word) when the local paper gives descriptions of people the police are looking for that have commited crimes.

This week we have 2 Asians posing as water board officials and robbing pensioners, and 2 weeks ago we had 2 Asians holding up a bus at gunpoint to rob it on a mountain road.

I guess any Asian living or travelling in this area would expect to get stopped, after all what would be the point of stopping a white person for these crimes.

(Not being picky or racist just giving a local example)

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Perhaps all the white people were out working at the time of the blacks being stopped? :D

Black/Asian poeple are more likely to get stopped just as currently Black/Asian people are more likely to be terrorists.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

well they do say that 75% of the worlds terrorists live in the uk. Years ago I was in Leciester and I was refused in a shop due to the fact that i'm white. These people have the nerve to come over to this country. They take the p--s out of the state fund. They tell us what to do Like in schools. Like that girl did and lost in court thank god. Yet can we go over to their countrys and live and get state this state that. Can we go and tell them how to run their lives ect. The answer to that is no.

About 3 months ago in a job center there was 2 asians. One could speak english and the other couldn't. Both of them applied jobseekers allowance. The one who can't speak english has to have his friend with him all the time. So to get jobs an employer has to take both of them on. But as both are willing to work in this country they both get jobseekers allowance. the chances of both being employed is well you work it out.

You can be walking down a street and see some asians in their muslim clothing talking happily away planning to blow up a town centre or something like that. So if some people think it is wrong to stop asians or blacks for whatever and you think the police ect are being raciast. Then your a bigger fool than what i am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Sorry? Who's this "they"? *Where* do *they* say it? Cite, please.

Years ago? How many years? Did they actually say "we're not serving you because you're white"? (Of course there's also the fact that years ago often pubs, clubs and boarding houses used to have signs up saying "no coloureds"...)

Yeah, after all, it's not as if there's ex-pat Brits over in *their* countries.

And, of course, our government doesn't rubber stamp bogus applications because they're too stupid to listen to warnings from the people who should know better.

Ah, so they *can't* "tell us what to do because they lost in court.

And, again, it's not like ex-pat schools make their own minds up about what they teach and how.

Well we can go to their countries and live, but the only reason we can't get "state this state that" is that they often don't *have* "state this or that".

Well actually the answer is *yes*. We've been doing it since the days of Empire! Except these days we don't use troops, we just use financial muscle.

So because someone doesn't speak English, even if they're willing to work, they shouldn't get help? I'm sure there are asian businesses who would employ them and having someone being bilingual working for you can be very advantageous in a business situation, especially if you import or export goods.

You can? Where? When? Who? Have you reported this to the Police?

If you think that stopping asians or black *simply* because of their colour or what they are wearing, then you are, indeed, a big fool!

One of the reasons that these youths get involved with "extremists" like Abu Hamza is that they feel *alienated* in this country and your attitude and what you propose is simply going to *increase* that feeling of alienation.

We need to make these people part of *our* community, not exclude them because "they don't fit" or "they won't do it *our* way" :rolleyes:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

One of the reasons that these youths get involved with "extremists" like Abu Hamza is that they feel *alienated* in this country and your attitude and what you propose is simply going to *increase* that feeling of alienation.


If they dont like it leave .Alienation like at the postoffice today .Me and my wife was the minority. The way we was looked at was disgusting. But just cos your alienated dos'nt justify planning the murder and deaths of innocent lives


And, of course, our government doesn't rubber stamp bogus applications because they're too stupid to listen to warnings from the people who should know better.

Thats labour for you dont forget most of them are here illegally. Its mainly the asians that get there relatives ect from india over here

Well actually the answer is *yes*. We've been doing it since the days of Empire! Except these days we don't use troops, we just use financial muscle.

We don't use troops .So our troops just go on holiday?????????? How come some of them have lost their lives on vacation????????

We need to make these people part of *our* community, not exclude them because "they don't fit" or "they won't do it *our* way"

The problem with that is that the hardliners in their british communitys wont ajust.Like marriages they still arrange them. See it that way the eyes of a lass been over here for lets say 18yrs then she has to goback to india or he comes over here and she is forced by rules not of this country. The old and the new dos'nt work.

This arguement can go on for ever with me and right honourable Graham. Ther point is when they come over here get houses food clothing ect dont have to pay for shopping ec like at the supermarket except for beer wine spirits fags ect. When the government pays for empty houses for these people or the s.seekers. then there will always be problems . As for the leciester problem i had that was about 20yrs ago .The problem ended that nite. I just dont like being treated like a 5th class citizen

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Well, as someone just said, if you don't like it *leave*.

Oh, but it's *your* country, isn't it? Well actually for many of them it's now *their* country too!

I never said it did. But what should we do about it? Behave in a way that *increases* the risk of alienation and extremism? Or have an inclusive society?

Who? Labour...?! :D

But seriously "most of them are here illegally"? Really? Can you provide cites to back this up?

So when you said "Can we go and tell them how to run their lives ect. The answer to that is no." you actually meant "the answer to that is yes"?

Just checking...

So how do we fix that? Do we turn around and say "right, now you live in our country, you're going to have to throw away your traditions and do it *our* way"?

Hmm, that's *really* going to give us an inclusive society and will not in any way pander to the extremists!!

(Why does this remind me of Norman Tebbit saying that immigrants should support the *England* team at sporting events...?!)

And don't forget they're taking hard-earned money out of the pocket of British Taxpayers and stealing our jobs and destroying our communities and all the other stuff you read about in The Sun... :rolleyes:

Would you care to explain this comment???

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

But seriously "most of them are here illegally"? Really? Can you provide cites to back this up

rare plants and endangered wildlife about 2500 animals and 25000 plants.No way am I list that lot cos by the time i finished writeing the list they'll be extinct.

So how do we fix that? Do we turn around and say "right, now you live in our country, you're going to have to throw away your traditions and do it *our* way Maybe a little bit of give and take would'nt go a miss

But you might mean citys try england

(Why does this remind me of Norman Tebbit saying that immigrants should support the *England* team at sporting events...?!)Oh, but it's *your* country, isn't it? Well actually for many of them it's now *their* country too!. If you live in it why not support it.


Well actually the answer is *yes*. We've been doing it since the days of Empire! Except these days we don't use troops, we just use financial muscle.

Quote:
We don't use troops .So our troops just go on holiday?????????? How come some of them have lost their lives on vacation????????



So when you said "Can we go and tell them how to run their lives ect. The answer to that is no." you actually meant "the answer to that is yes"?

WEll to that one i origionally said no you stated we dont send in troops and only use financial muscle so don't twist that one

Would you care to explain this comment??? as for that one what i origionally said will have to do

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Don`t worry, you don`t sound like a nationalist. Mod Edit (Tez) - Please do not make personal insults Has it not even occurred to you that a good number of Muslims would have actually been born over here, that the UK is their country of origin?

Mod Edit (Tez) - Please do not make personal insults

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I've tried to seperate the answers & replies - is it right?

- sorry, mrmassive, but please could you make it clearer which is the post, or part of post you are replying to - and which is the reply? :)

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

no problem gaz will do on next post

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Originally Posted by orangebird
Jesus, Mary and Joseph... Any excuse to call us caucasian Brits racist....

I don't mean to sound like a complete nationalist here, but if the Islamic Human Rights people don't like it, why don't they just sod off back to their Islamic country of origin

answer Maybe they can't go back due to the fact if they went back on a plane it might be shot out of the sky before it lands

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

thanks

- I actually meant use the 'quote' button, rather than the 'reply' one, for replying to a 'whole' message.

or using the 'tags' available, for replying to segments of a post


'tags' are always enclosed in square brackets, they control the way the text in your posts is displayed.

for example a (b)text(/b) would display text in bold (round brackets used for illustration) Bold

- note the (/b) at the end to turn bold off.

the (quote) paste here (/quote) tag, allowsyou to delineate exactly which part of a post you are replying to, especially when =nameofposter is added to the first tag (quote=nameofposter) - copy the part of the post you want to reply to, paste it in the reply form, edit the (quote) tags into the form around the posted segment ('paste here' above - remember you should be using square brackets), then edit in your reply - preview if you want - and post

if you hit the 'quote' button for this post, you will see the tags, rather than their effects :)

<edit> apart from the bit, which is screened out by the forum software ;)

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

just drank a bottle of metaxa 7 star brandy thought i waz doing well .AHH that's life for you

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

just starting on 20yrs old glenfarclas nice scotch gaz u wanna try some . Cheers mucker

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Edit: I note that others have already addressed the quoting problem, so I've cut that part out.

Excuse me? What on earth does this have to do with the price of fish?

We're talking about your comment "Thats labour for you dont forget most of them are here illegally. Its mainly the asians that get there relatives ect from india over here", not rare plants and endangered wildlife!!

I don't disagree, but what you seem to suggest is that anything that conflicts with "our" way should automatically be discarded.

Tell you what, why not tell a Liverpool supporter who has moved to Manchester that he's got to support Man Utd now...! :rofl:

We were talking about "telling people how to run their country", but I don't think Iraq counts in quite the same way which is why I didn't include it in my original comment, however I apologise if that was imprecise.

That's your right, but I don't like the implications of the original comment.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I have said this before and will say it again, if they dont like our laws they can **** off to a country that suits them.

Also staticstically in America there are more black youths in prison than college. Well if said black youths did something constructive with their lives they probably wouldnt be in prison would they?

If the Asians of the UK are not prepared to be stopped and searched given the current climate and possibility of terrorist attack then they should be imprissoned like foreign nationals were in 1939-1945.

Priority number one, If its law and you wont obey or comply you are imprissoned. It counts for everyone no matter what colour, religion, gender sexual persuasion. The only exemption appears to be age. Its not harrassment its not prejudice its common sense.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Quite agree and well put

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...7&postcount=93

Obviously you don`t think that it is important to obey a law prevents you assaulting someone. Can you let us know when you'll be going to a country that suits you?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

No need for that he is right if the people that go to a country do not like the laws they can always leave

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And as I`ve asked countless times before, what about the Muslims that were born in this country. All of this rhetoric seems like a thinly veiled argument to kick all non-whites out of this country.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Does it really matter if someone is born here or comes from another country, laws must not be broken.

When in Rome do as the romans do!

If the police were given a description of a white mugger they would be wasting their time stopping black or asian people, so the same thing goes when they have the description of an asian looking mugger.

The police can only stop people who fit the description, it will be a sad day when police are only allowed to stop white people for crimes and let blacks or asians get away with it.

Is that what some people want?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

What I want is for the authorities to stop assuming that every Muslim is a potential threat. In the last year the number of stop-and-searches on Muslims went up by something like 300% while the number of arrests for terrorism as a result went down.

Simply walking down the street is not breaking any laws, and I don`t see why Muslims should be treated a potential criminals just because of their religion.

I`m white, born in this country, and if the police attempted a stop-and-search on me without any just cause you can bet that I would use every right that I have to demand information on why the search was conducted, and exercise my right to have it demonstrably proven that it was justified. Do you believe that all whites who can trace their family lineage back n generations within this country agree with these policies? You can`t "do as the Romans do" if there are "Romans" who don`t agree with the policy.

Stopping people who fit a description is one thing, but when that description is as broad as simply being a Muslim then any decent person is forced to ask questions.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I wonder how much the Muslim community is doing to help the police in tracking radical, undesirable Muslims. Perhaps not enough, if the police feel they have to thrash around blindly stopping any Muslim......

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Well you only have to go back to the 70's when anyone with an Irish accent was questioned and treated with suspicion during the hight of the IRA bombing campaign. I know that was wrong but today I wonder how many Irish are questioned because of their accents, the IRA threat has gone away so there is no longer any need to question them.

If there was a policy in England to stop, search and question all Welsh people I would simply stay in wales if I didn't like it. I think you will find that most Romans do agree with the policy, none of us see the need to harrass innocent people wherever they come from or what they look like.

Its a sign of the times, but I think we are sometimes dealing with the enemy within. A small number of Muslims (notice I said small) living in this country were rejoicing after sept 11th. Some potential terrorists are actually moving among us on a daily basis, I am not trying to over dramatise the situation but what were those guys from this country who ended up in Guantanamo bay doing.

They were not there on a package tour!


I think you have a valid point, the very fact that many muslims live in communities and are not scattered makes for a stronger bond amongst themselves, I suppose in certain circumstances they could inconcievably harbour their own criminals because of this closed community.

I have never understood why some foreign people in this country, (not just choosing the asian community) do not like the British traditional way of life.
It does make you wonder why they live here if they dont like it.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And once again, you fail to address the issue of Muslims born over here. Where do you suggest they stay?

It's always very amusing to see people like you attempt to justify their viewpoint, nothing more fun than seeing people dig that hole even deeper.

I see, so if you move to a foreign country you should adopt the local customs at the expense of your own culture? Try telling that to the beer-swilling ex-pats who live in other countries.

Traditional British way of life? That's an illusion put out by the tabloids for the benefit of middle England and those who can't think for themselves. So many aspects of our "traditional" way of life are not native to this country. There are enough of them that the Discovery channel didn`t just manage to make one program about the topic, they managed to make a whole series.

There are many aspects of the "traditional" way of English life that I do not agree with, but I`m certainly not going to leave the country.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

What issue about being born over here, just because they are born here doesn't mean they are exempt from terrorist actions in the name of their religion or religious beliefs. I was working with an Asian contractor last year and he told me about how he was going "back home" for a month!

He was born in this country and is in his mid 30's, he considers the country in Asia to be his true home though.

I have a friend who went to an African country recently, he got locked up by the local police/army for not playing along with the local rules. It was his fault entirely he knew the rules and got put in prison for almost 24 hours for breaking a silly little rule that we would all laugh at.

He was in Rome and had to do as the romans do.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Simple.......they like the money they can earn here.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Exactly, they often use it to purchase property back home.

These people are often referred to as "economic Migrants" some say they come to help the economy, in my experience they come to line their own pockets.

I am not knocking them, its only what Brits do in Saudi and places like that.

I would just like people to aknowledge its the case and not spout of rubbish trying to convince us otherwise.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

You specifically raised the example of if you didn`t like something in a different country you would stay in Wales? I asked you where those born here would stay if they don`t like something about their country of birth. Do I really need to connect all the dots for you?

There is a world of difference between breaking a local law and opposing the policies of the authorities when they legitimise institutional racism.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

If they dont like it emigrate, the problem is we have to many liberal minded people about in the UK. You have to remember that, if people complain in other countries its jail.
If you are in a muslim country you follow their laws, or you end up in jail same goes here.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

See we differ here, I dont class throwing a bag of flour at someone as assault. Assault to me is what happened when I was 13, and I received a smashed cheek bone, a broken nose and lost sight in my right eye. Its a shame the CPS didnt feel like following the case up really, perhaps they were too busy prosecuting phantom flour throwers.

Quite rightly these people were detained because they did something pretty damned stupid, but i didnt think it was illegal to bring a bag of flour into the house of commons. I've never heard of anyone being charged with assault for throwing flour around. I'd imagine they would have been takent o the small claims court to pay for the cleaning bill personally.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I'm white, 28 years old, male and big built, if I was stopped and searched in the street because I was matching the description of being white and male of someone the police were looking for, I'd gladly help them out.
How are they supposed to do their job if idiots will not co operate with them?
We are quick to condemn the police for not doing anything and we also chastise them for doing something, how can they possibly win?

If In spoke with an Irish accent in the 70's and 80's yes it would be annoying to be stopped all the time, but I would be understanding enough to known that the police are doing their job. They see someone that they want to question they go and ask questions. Its the Idiots that say they are being victimised that create the problem, not the police stopping and routinely questioning the public, which they are allowed to do. It would be nice if the police didnt have to do this, unfortunately because of the terrorist threat coming form people disguised as a muslims, and a lot of muslims being of Asain origin, the police stop people of Asian Origin.
Woiuldnt it be a relief if the Police could say, due to the current climate in world terrorism I would like ot stop you and ask a few questions, as I am required to do so to help keep the general public safe.

Imagine the outcry? but its so bloody true

As I am a heavy metal fan and in my student days I used to dress as most Heavy metal fans did during the early 1990's Not one day went by without me being stopped and searched by the police. Did I cry persecution? Did I threaten to kick up such a fuss? Did I complain when I was told to get out of a village that I actually live in the parish of? no I co-operated with the police, I answered their questions and I left the village, they had no legal right to ask me to move on (I was sat on a bench correctly and drinking milk shake) but I still complied, because their job is to aid with crime prevention also, and as innocent and unlikely to commit a crim I knew I was they didnt know me.


On another note Dr Wadd please stop berating and insulting people because they dont agree with you, not only are you doing it in this thread you have made some very strong accusations in another thread because I dont agree with you. It makes you oppinionated and exactly what you are calling others.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Well I've been busy for a few days, so I've only just had a chance to catch up with this thread and, unsurprisingly, the same old misguided arguments are being trotted out seemingly in attempts to justify prejudice :(

Good for you. But as has already been said in this thread, it's not blacks and Muslims being stopped *because* the Police are *looking* for someone, it's them being stopped because "everyone knows" that blacks and Muslims are more likely to be criminals and terrorists!

So anyone who doesn't immediately co-operate with the Police and, instead, insists on their legally backed Civil Rights is "an idiot"? Hmm, that's a constructive argument.

What a wonderful piece of logic. You conflate too entirely separate arguments from the extremes and try to make a point out of them.

Surprisingly enough, however, there *is* middle ground between "let them do whatever they want" and "don't let them do anything".

I suggest you read this article

http://www.yourrights.org.uk/your-ri...st/index.shtml

and see *exactly* what they are actually allowed to do and not to do.

As for calling someone an "idiot" because they think they're being victimised: try reading the following:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1866502.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3731489.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3859991.stm

Look at the different levels of Stop and Searches done on the various groups and the wide disparity between them and then consider whether the black and Muslim community commit *so many more* crimes than the white community to justify such a disparity.

"True"? "A relief"? But for *whom*?

The black/ Asian/ Muslim community? Or just the white community?

"Not one day"? Do I detect just a *touch* of hyperbole here?

So you consider it to be *acceptable* to abuse someone's human rights to "prevent crime"? You think it's ok to judge someone purely on how they look? You will allow someone to presume a person a threat without any reasonable grounds?

I'm sure there have been some regimes in other parts of the world who would *LOVE* to have you as a citzen with that attitude!!

You mean like people who make comments such as: "I would just like people to aknowledge its the case and not spout of rubbish trying to convince us otherwise."?

Which reads as "I'm right, you're wrong and anything you say to counter my *opinion* is 'rubbish' ". Hmm, pots? Kettles??

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Culture clash
......with some of the attitudes/resentments seemingly prevalent amongst young Muslims atm it would possibly be rather dangerous to stop them at random......

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Yes, but you don`t define the laws. So it is ok for you to pick and choose at a whim? :rolleyes:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Let's throw in a little hypothetical example. A predominantly white, "law abiding" right-wing Christian group decides to make a point by conducting a terrorist campaign against abortion clinics (I know, all WASPs are beyond reproach, but let's just ride with this one for a while). By thelogic here rate of stop and search indicidents on middle Englanders should go through the roof, simple because they are middle class, white Christians. Somehow I can`t really see that happening, there would be uproar in such august publications as the Daily Mail.

Why would there be such an uproar under these circumstances? I don`t think it takes a rocket scientist to work out that there are double standards at play.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

If you are happy to have your rights trampled upon and for you to be persecuted simple because of your appearance I`m certainly not going to complain about that. There is a difference between aiding authority and bowing and scraping at their every demand. If you're willing to roll over so easily then you don`t really have a case to argue.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Here's what I've just written to the "feedback" page regarding that article:

* * * * *

For those who are puzzled by the seeming shift of young Muslims to "extremism", may I invite them to consider the rise of "Black Power" organisations in America in the 1960's

Here were a group of people in what they thought they could consider to be "their country" being effectively told that they were second class citizens. They were a "problem" to be dealt with, a "threat" to the status quo, people to be suspicious of, not to be trusted.

Is it any wonder that some turned around and said "well, if that's how you think we should be treated, we'll damn well behave that way!"?

Now consider the young Muslims again and ask yourself if there's really that much difference.

* * * * *

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

So, come on then, Grahm, Dr Wadd - what do you suggest the police do instead? :shrug:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

It's simple, you don`t do spurious stop-and-searches just because of someone's ethnicity and religion, you treat them the same as someone else. If they have reasonable belief, fine, stop them and search them, but I simply cannot define "reasonable belief" on the grounds of skin colour and/or religion.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And what do you define as reasonable belief?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

That they are either in act of committing a crime (ie. in possession of illegal drugs), or are about to commit a crime, religion and skin colour are indicative of neither. Unless you are stating they are, in which case you are making a sweeping generalisation on the basis of religion and/or skin colour. I believe that there is a word for that kind of prejudice............

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Sorry, I really don't mean to be picky, but unless you search someone, how do you know they're in possession of drugs (or a bomb etc etc etc...)?

And how do you determine that someone is 'about to commit a crime'?
I personally believe that with the specific case of looney tunes that originate from the middle east wanting to blow innocents up, and the apparent lack of any confessionals fro these people, skin colour and religion are about the only two things we have to go on.... :shrug:

I can understand and agree to a certain point with the Islamaphobia theory, but if one of my nearest and dearest got injured or killed because one of these dillusional extremists didn't look shifty enough to get stopped and searched, I'd be baying for blood from the b*stards that dfid it, AND from our security services that weren't thorough enough....

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

You merely asked when, under the current legislation (as that is the only valid framework under which to address the question) stop and search would be justified. To be honest, I do not believe that the police should necessarily have the right to what essentially amounts to arbitrary stop and search powers. If the police wish to search my house they are supposed to get a search warrant, I fail to see why such protection shouldn`t extend to my pockets, bags, etc.

And in real terms, what protection does it actually offer you? Stop and searches are up by around 300%, arrests are down. Mathematically, it isn`t an effective tactic, so what protection does it offer you?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

A little is better than none IMO. What else do you suggest we do?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Did you actually read all of my reply? I've already stated what I believe we should do, only have stop and search if it is backed up by a search warrant. Yes, I know that is impractical, my point being that I do not believe that the police should have that right at all.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Ok then what rights should the police have to uphold the law? their job isnt soley to track down criminals after the event, they are there to prevent crime also.

Stop and searches up 300%, arrests down. Well maybe, Just maybe the realisation they are more likely to be caught doing minor offences under the current climate is actually helping to clear up anti social problems. If people realise they are more likely to be stopped and searched they are les likely to carry things they shouldnt. Arrests down, I think the fact the poice doint have to arrest as many people could be interpreted as a positive result.

Perhaps we should give the police the power to stop and search the little scrotes that hang around the shops drinking when under age, stealing cars, committing burglary, and mugging people.

What people fail to understand is that by giving the Police a tough time for doing the job they are affecting others, not just the individual police involved and themselves. What harm is there in being stopped and asked a few questions? Does it cause so much hassle that you cant possibly co-operate without creating a scene?

The police have a toough enough job as it is, and as far as I am concerned it should be a minor offence to awkward with the police when asked reasonably a few questions. It has nothing to do if they think you are guilty of something, the questions are to help them do their job, know who is in a given area so if anything happens they know where they can start looking and eliminating suspects. Its not about your black, we dont like your face, c'mon my son yer nicked.

I cant understand what this country is coming to when we scream about the lack of coppers on the beat one minute then cry harrassment because they are finally out there doing their bloody job.
Yes not all coppers are cleaner than clean, and yes some do have attitude problems (had the misfortune to come across one once, was cheeky and promptly arrested for drunk and disorderly even though I was quite sober, but had been drinking......thats where I learnt my lesson that its easier to co-operate and help them do their job).

One mans cry for civil liberties may cause umpteen problems for others.

If the police werent stopping and searching Asians and muslims and there was a huge bomb blast in your town, and it turns out the Muslim extremeists did it, would you be happy the police hadnt done "something" ?

If there was a Combat 18 rally in your neighbourhood and you were attacked by skinheads, would you be happy that because of Civil liberties, the police hadnt bothered finding out why all these skin heads were there? After all its not illegal to have a shaved head and wear jeans.

If your child was attacked by a paedophile, would you be happy that police were unaware of him?

The Police gain information by stopping and talking/asking questions of others. Yes it may result in 1 conviction in a 1000 but if that 1 conviction stops a child from being raped, or a 100 people killed or maimed in a bomb blast is it still not worth your time to answer a couple of questions?

As a foot note, are there any figures on the amount of white people stopped and searched in the same time frame? Can we compare them? is there a rise there, a drop or no change.
Is it in fact that the police are hassling these people or is it the fact that more and more police are now on the beat and are there to be able to stop and search? Perhaps the police are indeed doing their jobs and not victimising anybody.
Are the police victimising motorists in the speeding campaign, or is it just more officers available to actually do the job of the police?
Can we have comparisons please?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Exactly what I was saying with my post. Though you would hope they would have the 'moral fibre' not to give in to extremism.....

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

ohhh look what I found on the BBC website........


....certainly paints a picture of "victimisation", but not in the area most people expected.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3859991.stm


Link originally posted by Graham, and definately, absolutely positively NOT posted by Dr Wadd, Thanks for that :D

So lets look at it again, are Asians and blacks the ones that are really being victimised, or is it, the fact they are Asian and black that it makes the news?
I really hope it isnt true, but I suspect some people are trying to delibertaely play the racism card.
I read what had happened, and yes the three links Dr Wadd, I mean ermmm.....Graham, posted were shocking reading, but it doesnt really say whether the people were doidn anything that could have been interpretted as "odd" perhaps. The one gentleman that has won a case against the met I say yes fair enough 37 times in the given time span isnt excessive but the charges of crimes that he obviously didnt commit do warrant an apology.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Specifically, arrests for terrorism related offences are down, not arrests in general (sorry, I do make the presumption that people watch the news, my mistake). How does that now fit into your theory?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I didn`t post those links. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what you are reading.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Yeah Many apologies Dr Wadd. I'll change the post to reflect that Graham posted those links.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And a car thief can fit a car in a bag or their pocket? :rolleyes:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Well, no need to apologise :)

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Perhaps a car is going a little too far, but the tools to steal a car certainly.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Yes, but you missed this one:

"Increase in overall searches"

Black: 38%
Asian: 36%
White: 17%
Source: Home Office

So rise in the number of searches on Blacks and Asians is *double* what it is for Whites.

Now consider this: "results on ethnicity and religion from the 2001 Census reveal that 87.5 per cent of the population of England and Wales (seven out of eight people) gave their ethnic group as White British." (The total UK population is given as 58.7 million)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2.../ethnicity.asp

Given those proportions, you'd expect 12.5% of terror law stop and searches to be on Black and Asians and others assuming no bias.

Except the total number of TLSS on Blacks and Asians is actually *twenty two percent* of the total number and the amount of searches on those groups is, as I said above, increasing twice as fast as those on Whites.

Look at the above figures and ask yourself the question again.

I think you actually mean the links I posted...!

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

To inject a bit of better spirit into this thread, perhaps we should get a late night debate show on Channel 4, with heated debates such as these we'd certainly get the viewers :)

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I Hold no grudges against anyone, graham and myself have crossed words several times, and yet in one thread we even managed to have a bit of a banter.

Yes Graham those figures show an alarming rise in stops and searches of Asians.
So in the area this was reported for, The Met I beleive, What is the perccentage of Asian to whites living in this area?
Do these stops and searches reflect a rise in a certain area for example, in a predominantly Asian are. In the current climate you would expect to see a rise across the board, but as every one here is fully aware these facts and figures may yet turn out to be misleading, It seems to be happening everywhere else.
These figures show an increase, but is it in proportion? I'm admittedly finding it difficult to get the right words but what I am basically saying is, are these figures designed to shock and not lie, or are they 100% honest and indicate what they appear to?

All I am trying to say is that yes, it looks as if the Asians are getting a bit of stick off the police, but what are the police supposed to do? the current climate states that any terrorist threat is extremely likely to come from an asian or muslim source.
The police wouldnt get anywhere by stopping white, apparently non muslim people would they?
Which takes me back to the comment I made originally that it was just common sense, as annoying as it may be for the innocent people stopped and searched.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Yes and I have no problem with them trying to prevent crime *PROVIDED* it is done without abusing anyone's rights!

Perhaps we should stop making massive generalisations.

To paraphrase an argument from elsewhere in this thread: If they don't like the job they should go and work somewhere else...!!! (NB this is *IRONY*!)

So you think the Police should waste *even more* time having to deal with anyone who is "awkward"??

It's isn't? I suggest you look at the activities of some of the most notorious "Secret Police" forces around the world and the repressive regimes under which they operate and then see how similar they are to what you are suggesting!

Because their job is *NOT* to go out on the beat and demand answers from anyone and everyone about what they're doing and why they're there!!

So you *approve* of a system where the Police can abuse their powers simply because they don't like your attitude? :rolleyes:

One lost civil liberty can cause *many* more problems for *EVERYONE*!

This is a pointless and ludicrous question.

You postulate an attack by a specific group, but present no evidence (because there *is* no evidence) either that a) there *would* be such an attack or b) that the Police stopping and searching Asians and Muslims would have *stopped* such an attack.

You then appear to consider that the possibilty of stopping such a putative attack *justifies* stopping and searching Asians and Muslims, but, again, there is no evidence for this conclusion.

You pile hypothesis on hypothesis and then try to put the burden of proof on "us" to deny it!

Another ridiculous hypothesis and backed by a ridiculous claim that "because of Civil liberties, the police hadnt bothered finding out why all these skin heads were there".

This is not what Civil Liberties is about, they protect the right of lawful assembly, free speech, freedom to wear whatever you want etc. This doesn't mean that if there were to be such a rally the Police would do *nothing*!

If the Police were unaware of him, how could they *stop* him attacking *any* child? :confused: Should they stop everyone and ask if they're a paedophile...???

Yes, because such a scattergun method would not work and your attempts to justify it with figures plucked out of the air are not at all convincing.

Where would you stop? If it stopped one child being abused, would you agree to the Police being able to walk into everyone's house and check their computer for kiddie porn? If it stopped one bomb going off, should they be able to stop and search every Asian or Muslim walking or driving down the street?

Would you *REALLY* want to live in a society where individual's rights have been *so* eroded that such things could take place? I'm sure there are countries in this world whose leaders would *love* such powers...!!

Yes, see my post above.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

As the article says: The total number of stop and searches under the Terrorism Act 2000 in England and Wales more than doubled in 2002/2003 from 8,550 to 21,577.

I don't know, you'd have to ask the Home Office, since they produced the figures.

Unfortunately this is completely the wrong question to ask.

What you *should* be asking is "will increasing numbers of stop and searches *actually* help the Police 'get anywhere' "

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/3314009.stm

* * * * *

the number of stop and searches carried out under new anti-terrorism powers tripled to 32,100 between 2001/02 and the following year.

Of those stopped for suspected terrorism, 380 were arrested [ie about 1.2%]

* * * * *

In 2002/03, 895,000 people were stopped by police, which was 21% more than the previous year and the largest total for four years.

West Yorkshire, Merseyside and Staffordshire were the three police force areas to record the biggest increases, at 84%, 66% and 53% respectively.

The Metropolitan Police showed a 33% rise in stop and search, compared with an average 16% rise in the remainder of England and Wales.

* * * * *

The number of arrests following stops and searches rose 16% to 114,300, which was 13% of the total number carried out

* * * * *

So we have 13% of "ordinary stop and searches" generating arrests, but only 1.2% of "terrorism based" ones generating arrests.

Now does that strike you as being "in proportion"? Do you think that is helping the Police "get anywhere" in the prevention of terrorism? Or is such a system actually wasting Police time and causing resentment amongst the communities who would *actually* be better placed to give information to the Police about possible threats if it wasn't for the fact that they probably feel so alienated that their attitude is "sod them, they get all they deserve"?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

I would guess that many of us would be very happy if just 1 of the thousands they stopped and searched was proved to be a terrorist planning an attack to kill hundreds or thousands of innocent victims.

I'm sure we would all think it worthwhile.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

:clap:

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And the next group of terrorists you create by persecuting a section of society?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

....both good points. Perhaps indicating that the police need some 'middle way' of doing things.....

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

And *how* exactly *would* you "prove" that they were "a terrorist planning an attack to kill hundreds or thousands of innocent victims"?

Let's spin back in time to September 11th 2001 and note that the hijackers had to pass through airport security metal detectors etc. Now of course they could have been physically searched as well, but even if they had been found with weapons on them, what *evidence* could you have found that they were planning on hijacking planes and ramming them into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon?

The answer is almost certainly absolutely none!

So, please, don't make ridiculous assertions that by harassing minorities on the streets you're going to prevent another September 11th style attack or save the lives of "hundreds or thousands of innocent victims" because this is sheer nonsense.

Yes, I'm sure many people *would* be happy and think it worthwhile.

Of course they're usually the ones who don't understand how important Civil Rights are or the benefits of not living in a Police State or the fact that searching thousands of people from a minority is liable to alienate a few of them and possibly make them *more* likely to turn to extremism and *want* to commit attacks...

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

The terrorists were USA internal flights which at the time did not have metal detectors etc.

Also at the time if they had knives or guns, as you rightly point out, does not necessarilly mean they might have been out to hijack the plane and use it as a missile, but we didn't know that was their motive.

We do "now" though. Therfore now you can't even get on with a pair of nail scissors.

I am not for harassing "minorities" (however I would no longer call the Islamic community a minority). But let's say that a random stop and search led to a discovery of a terrorist cell. It could happen, you can't prove otherwise.

Then as Escapee points out, we would all be glad. It may be a 1 in 1 million shot but becuase the odds are that long does that mean we shouldn't do it?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Whilst I agree that it is hard to prove someones intentions, it would be very suspect if aomeone was carrying say the plans of a football stadium in an envelope who originated from an uncivilised country containing a hard core religiously motivated group of fundamentalists.

We must also realise that very often the police/security forces are not able to supply details for reasons to stop people, as it could break their cover and expose detection methods.

Graham, if you think that is just talking through my backside I could possibly PM you a link so you can see what side I am looking at it from.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Fair enough, I wasn't aware of that.

You're not *supposed* to be able to get on with them, however I remind you of the British guys who, not long after September 11th, managed to get all the way back to the UK from Florida with knuckle dusters, combat knives and stun guns http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1643009.stm

Yes, I agree it *could* happen, but how likely is it? One in a million? Maybe.

But what *other* effects could result from trying to get that "one in a million" lucky hit? What effect could it have on relations between that community and the Police? And could it or could it not risk more youngsters turning to extremism?

Consider what effects those could have and then decide whether the chance of possibly discovering a terrorist cell is outweighed by massive breaches of Civil Rights and the loss of presumption of innocence.

What good is a "solution" that just make the problem worse?

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

But this is *NOT* the same thing we're talking about!

I have no objection to "intelligence led" policing, nor to people being stopped *if* there are reasonable grounds for suspicion.

Neither do I have a problem with the reasons not being revealed if they will compromise security or detection methods *provided* there is some oversight and control imposed to ensure such powers aren't being abused.

However what is being discussed is *random* stop and searches based simply on someone's ethnicity or dress or appearance and that I most definitely have a problem with.

Re: blacks and asians more prone to being stopped
 

Agreed.