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andrew_wallasey 07-06-2004 13:26
Expand the cable network
 
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knew of any plans to extend the ntl network in the north west. I am interested in the Wirral because there are huge pockets where there is no cable laid and I have a lot of friends which would like to switch to ntl.

Thanks,

Andrew

Chris W 07-06-2004 13:42
Re: Expand the cable network
 
have a guess how much cable rollout costs per metre?

Derek 07-06-2004 14:12
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Lots and lots

Am I close?

Pierre 07-06-2004 14:24
Re: Expand the cable network
 
when I was involved in building networks the cost was represented as cost per property.

eg a row of terraced houses was a low cost per property about a £150 per house. But once you got out into the suburbs with their big houses and even bigger gardens the cost per property could go well into the thousands .

Chris W 07-06-2004 14:43
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzo

Lots and lots

am I close?
they will have to install new cabs, run cabling through the whole street, from the nearest pipe as well, pay the workers to do it, pay the council to dig up the road, possible upgrade ubrs to support it...

the list goes on.

I have heard figures of around £10000 per metre to lay fibre optic, and £3000 to lay standard coax. These may be a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were right.

MB

Pierre 07-06-2004 16:31
Re: Expand the cable network
 
£10,000 a meter is a bit too high

On avg (as differnent contractors have different rates around the country)

eg For fibre optic.

to excavate a 4way duct in the f/w = £37 per m
the tee to each property £ 22 per no.
To backfill the trench = £13 per m2
to tarmac the trench = £27 per m

to pull in a large fibre optic = £0.65 per m
Large fibre optic cable costs = £4.50 per m
to joint a large fibre optic cost = £2000 per joint
To build and activate a cab = up to £1100 (depending of size of cab)
F/w chambers up to £900 depending on size of chamber

mmm 07-06-2004 17:54
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Well BT seem to think it is £50k per m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/3701467.stm

They claim elsewhere they had to replace 2km!

andrew_wallasey 07-06-2004 18:15
Re: Expand the cable network
 
I never thought it was cheap or an easy job. I was asking if there was ever any dicussion of plans to extend the network. Surely over the years they get there money back, if there is demand for service.

There are areas around here which made no commercial sense to have cable laid in. Some houses in areas with cable have driveways so long you would need an RG11 pull even if the cab was on the road outside your house.

Pierre 08-06-2004 14:32
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm
Well BT seem to think it is £50k per m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/3701467.stm

They claim elsewhere they had to replace 2km!
That's different, they were responding to a damage and there could be all kinds of other costs related to it that pushes it up to £25,000 . Fibre optic usually is laid in 2km sections and when it is damaged the whole 2km is usually replaced so as not to increase the attenuation on the span.

Quote:
I never thought it was cheap or an easy job. I was asking if there was ever any dicussion of plans to extend the network. Surely over the years they get there money back, if there is demand for service.

There are areas around here which made no commercial sense to have cable laid in. Some houses in areas with cable have driveways so long you would need an RG11 pull even if the cab was on the road outside your house.
Generally speaking there has been no major build in the industry for the best part of 4 years. The industry has concentrated increasing revenues by upselling to exisiting customers.

It is unlikely that any new build would be green lit until ntl and telewest have merged and then only if there is a major cash injection. When ntl/telewest merge it will cost a lot of money to link the two networks (you only have to look at the problems with legacy ntl and CoCo)

Basically if your not in a built area now I wouldnot envisage you getting service for several more years - if at all.

themelon 09-06-2004 21:25
Re: Expand the cable network
 
What I dont get is surely the cheapest time for ntl to lay the cable is when the houses are being built. I have looked a several new houses in Stoke On Trent to move into, some not even fully finished but NONE of these properties are cabled.

This is a major problem for me, it would mean moving back to Sky and BT and quite frankly I would rather gouge my eyes out with spoons than put up with that pitiful lot again....but these are nice houses ive seen about 5 estates springing up in the SOT area none have cable. All of these estates are about 10 metres or less from a cabled street as Stoke is prety well covered in the traditional areas.

Pierre 09-06-2004 21:39
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Generally speaking "New Developments" should be at least ducted up during construction.Not that they will be cabled but for the fact that most Local Authorities will not adopt the highways on the development if they aren't. The reason being that they do not want ntl to come back and dig up the roads once the council are responsible for maintaining them.

gooner4life 09-06-2004 21:59
Re: Expand the cable network
 
All new housing developments in my surrounding area are pre wired internally for BT and NTL and have the ducting and cabs prepared before anybody even moves in, all that is needed is to pull a cable from cab to premises through the ducting and connect it to the Omni.

andrew_wallasey 09-06-2004 23:27
Re: Expand the cable network
 
There are areas round here where Nynex just stopped 1/2 way through doing areas. Theres like this one easte wiv everything in the ground and the cabs but you can't get service there but 1/2 mile up the road you can.


Then in Wallasey there are roads off Seabank Raod with no Cable (Holland Drive, etc) where there is cable at the top of the road?

Why did they miss odd streets out?

Proppinupthebar 09-06-2004 23:32
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
There are areas round here where Nynex just stopped 1/2 way through doing areas. Theres like this one easte wiv everything in the ground and the cabs but you can't get service there but 1/2 mile up the road you can.


Then in Wallasey there are roads off Seabank Raod with no Cable (Holland Drive, etc) where there is cable at the top of the road?

Why did they miss odd streets out?
Government subsidy ran out?

andrew_wallasey 09-06-2004 23:39
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Surely they would have planned what money was being used for which areas though. It is a waste of time and money to lay ducting and install cabs if they can never receive a service.

Proppinupthebar 09-06-2004 23:48
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
Surely they would have planned what money was being used for which areas though. It is a waste of time and money to lay ducting and install cabs if they can never receive a service.
Not sure but a lot of companies plainly built networks cheaply to sell on to someone else.
ntl inherited the problem.

andrew_wallasey 10-06-2004 22:49
Re: Expand the cable network
 
The networks built in this area were built really well. From what I have been told Nynex built the best networks.

Proppinupthebar 10-06-2004 22:54
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Compared to who?
Theres no doubt some companies put money, quality and planning into their networks. Some put the cheapest tat they could get.

Mr_Burns 10-06-2004 23:08
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
There are areas round here where Nynex just stopped 1/2 way through doing areas. Theres like this one easte wiv everything in the ground and the cabs but you can't get service there but 1/2 mile up the road you can.


Then in Wallasey there are roads off Seabank Raod with no Cable (Holland Drive, etc) where there is cable at the top of the road?

Why did they miss odd streets out?
I know of areas where cable is available on one side of the street and not the other. This is probably down to the way that the areas were broken down fundamentally before any build was started. It could be that there is a natural boundary between the cabled and non-cabled areas - like a railway line or main road/dual carriageway where you'd want to make the minimum number of crossings due to expense. Normally you'd find that in such areas the houses on either side will be fed from different nodes, or even different fibre rings or hub. The main reason for stopping will be money (or lack of it!) But I would be surprised if there are areas which were constructed by ntl and not activated, the exception being new developments and footways/roads which have been resurfaced by the local authority which have ducts in them where, in all likelyhood, the intention was to expand the network to include these areas at that time.

Pierre 11-06-2004 09:17
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
There are areas round here where Nynex just stopped 1/2 way through doing areas. Theres like this one easte wiv everything in the ground and the cabs but you can't get service there but 1/2 mile up the road you can.


Then in Wallasey there are roads off Seabank Raod with no Cable (Holland Drive, etc) where there is cable at the top of the road?

Why did they miss odd streets out?
There can be very many reasons,

Wayleaves, Streets may not be adopted by the council.

Expense, it might have been to expensive to build the streets but they had build the trunk through the other street to close the ring.

Node topology, the street may have been planned to be served from another mux that has not been built.

injuneer 11-06-2004 10:11
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Compared to ex-Videotron areas. These are cack, the way they planned things changed from one month to the next hence no standardisation. Throw it in quick and cheap. Unfortunately a lot of SE London was Videotron.

Paul 11-06-2004 12:28
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
The networks built in this area were built really well. From what I have been told Nynex built the best networks.
Diamond Cable seem to have built a good network round here. :)

andrew_wallasey 11-06-2004 12:57
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by injuneer
Compared to ex-Videotron areas. These are cack, the way they planned things changed from one month to the next hence no standardisation. Throw it in quick and cheap. Unfortunately a lot of SE London was Videotron.
I have heard they were pretty gash!

andrew_wallasey 11-06-2004 12:59
Re: Expand the cable network
 
This is a really daft question but how do they shape the big green ducting or is it flexible?

Chris 11-06-2004 15:03
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
There are areas round here where Nynex just stopped 1/2 way through doing areas. Theres like this one easte wiv everything in the ground and the cabs but you can't get service there but 1/2 mile up the road you can.


Then in Wallasey there are roads off Seabank Raod with no Cable (Holland Drive, etc) where there is cable at the top of the road?

Why did they miss odd streets out?
Hey, I used to live in Hertford Drive! Just think, if I was still there I might never have been able to get ntl ... :erm: :D

Mr_Burns 11-06-2004 17:27
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
This is a really daft question but how do they shape the big green ducting or is it flexible?
The ducts come in 4m straight lengths which slot together. There is a bit of flexibility, but not much so there are a selection of bends which are used (90°, 45°, 22° & 11°) Normally, though, a chamber in the road/footway is used to negotiate sharper bends.

andrew_wallasey 12-06-2004 10:22
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Is that why when doing like my street (as good as straight) it was a lot easier than doing bendy roads? Are like the old victorian terrace houses quicker to put ducting in?

I suppose its also easier because older houses tend to have flagged pavements outside rather than tarmac (round here anyway).

Mr_Burns 12-06-2004 12:38
Re: Expand the cable network
 
As Pierre said earlier terraced houses are cheaper because they are so much closer together than detached properties or modern housing developments so you pass more properties per metre of dig.

Sometimes the flagged pavements are a pain, I think it's quite easy to break a slab when lifting it. Not too bad if they're modern concrete slabs, but expensive if they're the old pennant paving slabs.

andrew_wallasey 12-06-2004 15:32
Re: Expand the cable network
 
I recon they should put a system in place which allows people who don't live in cables streets to pre-register their details. In that way it shows where there is demand for the service and if it would be finantially viable/possible to cable that area in the future.

ian@huth 12-06-2004 15:49
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Is it set in stone that cables must be buried? Are there any areas where cables are above ground like telephone cables?

Many years ago I lived in Birstall, West Yorkshire (my birthplace) and the area was cabled above ground by Reddifusion (I think). Don't know what happened to that system. In the same area now NTL have cabled part of a large estate but most of it is uncabled. Could they not finish the job off by above ground cabling which must be far cheaper to provide.

Mr_Burns 12-06-2004 16:17
Re: Expand the cable network
 
The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.

ian@huth 12-06-2004 16:40
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Where I have seen streets being cabled they have always dug the pavement and road up where the cables are to go. Do they not use other methods of getting the cable in the ground similar to what British Gas used to get a gas supply into a house I used to own. To get the supply to me they had to cross two roads and then my garden. They did this by digging four holes and used a mole (I think that is what they called it) to bore between the holes and drag the pipe through.

I remember seeing a TV program that showed how they laid services in a huge development somewhere abroad (States I think). They used specially designed kerb edge stones which carried the services within them with access points outside each property. These kerb edges had holes every few inches which took surface water off the road.

Isn't there some method of extending the cabled areas more cheaply or is it a question of if you got it you're lucky, if you haven't you never will.

Mr_Burns 12-06-2004 17:27
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Normally the excavation is 'traditional' i.e. dig a trench and chuck the ducts in and back-fill it. If it's an extremely busy road which can't be closed or have lane restrictions imposed on it then I have known situations where thrust-boring has been used. To be honest I really don't know how the cost compares, though.

If ntl want to increase their customer base, at some point the networks will have to be extended as they will reach saturation point sometime, but what sort of timescale is involved is anyone's guess. Perhaps they're going to wait to see what new technologies develop which could make the provision of service a lot cheaper.

andrew_wallasey 13-06-2004 10:01
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Surely using a mole machine would be cheaper and quicker because there is less trenching and back filling. You would only have to dig holes at set intervals and on bends in the road where f/w would be needed anyway. Its only really modern developments (last 15-20 years) where the roads are all bendy.

I have seen the one which the gas board use because when I was an electrician. We found a gas leak and we got them out and it was interesting because the house had solid floors downstairs and they managed to negotiate it round everything and come up in exactly the right place in the house.

Mr_Burns 13-06-2004 12:13
Re: Expand the cable network
 
If it was cheaper then I would imagine that they would make use of it - it's incredibly expensive to dig the road up.

andrew_wallasey 14-06-2004 10:13
Re: Expand the cable network
 
So was the original rollout of cable supported by government funding?

altis 14-06-2004 11:06
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Burns
If it was cheaper then I would imagine that they would make use of it - it's incredibly expensive to dig the road up.
It's a big business called 'no-dig'...

http://www.nodig2004.de/index.php?language=en
http://www.no-dig.com/
http://www.nodigengineering.com/
http://www.nodiginternational.com/

SMHarman 14-06-2004 11:14
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Burns
The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.
This was the clause that rather crippled the financial viability of cable in the UK, slowed the speed of cable roll out and increased the cost, probably on both by a factor of 10.

I agree it makes the skyline a nicer place, and now most of the pavements have been repaired and trees that were killed reinstated.

Perhaps they will be able to lease duct space to BT in the future as they start their VOIP network upgrade and get rid of the poles from the streets.

The overhead power and cable and telco in the US does make it look very untidy, and makes power distribution less stable, the high winds of the last few years have regularly knocked whole areas of the countrys power out for days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
So was the original rollout of cable supported by government funding?
I don't know but this article indicates that it is in other countries and that the government is unwilling to consider it going forward, I suppose rightly so as the costs would benefit a plc (as well as broadband Britain). A third way would need to be found.

http://www.broadbanduk.org/reports/r..._appendix7.pdf

andrew_wallasey 14-06-2004 23:57
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Is it cheaper than the tradition trench, duct, re-fill and re-tarmac?

andrew_wallasey 15-06-2004 00:01
Re: Expand the cable network
 
I just think it is absolutely stupid the way none of the housing developers work with NTL when they are building houses in cabled areas because there has been some new developments round here and none of them are cable enabled. One of them being in a town center.

Family who used to have NTL and were happy with them have moved into there areas and be unable to get NTL's services.

Escapee 15-06-2004 12:55
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Burns
The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.
Do you realise that all the remaining poles and cables dont really exist, its a figment of your imagination! ;)

A contractor was paid to remove all the cables and poles when ntl shut the systems down, I was involved with a small consortium trying to buy the systems from ntl at the time of closure. I obtained figures per pole and had the entire costs for shutting down the systems, this was apparently paid in full but much of the work was never completed.

There has been much talk of backhanders surrounding the closure of these networks, and the two main managers/directors involved in this deal are no longer employed by ntl :shocked:

Shutting the existing VHF overhead systems in the South Wales valleys were a big mistake, the company had wayleaves and the valley towns with terraced houses and they were very cost effective to upgrade compared to large cities. The big problem was ntl's lack of understanding or possibly not wanting to understand the existing architecture in those areas, instead of using their heads and employing some technical skills to find solutions it was far easier to throw larg amounts of money at the cities. Many people with lots of years service in the cable TV industry will tell you the valleys are where the money is being made. For example the Ebbw Vale cable system had in excess of 60% penetration when it was closed down, and a few other systems had similar figures. (Remember impressive considering the manager in charge had been running them down for a number of years because he wanted redundancy for himself and sod the other 37 employees affected)

ntl played about with WHAM in Wales and later in Dolphin Square/London, as I predicted it would never go anywhere. Lack of money played a part but the main problem with ntl has always been lack of vision to look at different technologies, we used to have big problems where ntl would only stick to the original network design that was defined back in 1994. The architecture people in Hook never mooved with the times and that has cost ntl a lot of money and lost customers as a result.

Off my soapbox now :rolleyes:

Stu038 15-06-2004 13:30
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
Surely using a mole machine would be cheaper and quicker because there is less trenching and back filling. You would only have to dig holes at set intervals and on bends in the road where f/w would be needed anyway. Its only really modern developments (last 15-20 years) where the roads are all bendy.
Another problem is that there are lots of areas where no one knows exactly where services such as gas, electric etc. are underground. Street lighting, traffic lights and road signs espeacially seem to have some dodgy cable routing. I seem to remember lots of time in the past when such services were damaged while digging trenches.

A bit of a nightmare if you were doing wholeale moleing I would have thought. It would get very expensive not to mention risky if you were to nick a gas or electricity mains.

Chris 15-06-2004 13:42
Re: Expand the cable network
 
For some reason, the thread title 'Expand the cable network' reminds me of a film title: 'Raise the Titanic'. I would say that one is about as likely as the other.

poolking 15-06-2004 13:54
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
For some reason, the thread title 'Expand the cable network' reminds me of a film title: 'Raise the Titanic'. I would say that one is about as likely as the other.
Don't you mean solving the mystery of the "Mary Celeste?" :D

Mr_Burns 15-06-2004 17:38
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee
Do you realise that all the remaining poles and cables dont really exist, its a figment of your imagination!
I know, we haven't had any calls from residents/local authorities complaining about hanging cables, etc. ;)

I didn't realise how far the Metro network went, until we discovered a box hidden under a desk when packing up for the 'move'. I agree that it was a mistake that the network was closed down considering the number of homes it passed. But wasn't the argument that it wasn't making any money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee
we used to have big problems where ntl would only stick to the original network design that was defined back in 1994
The original CableTel architecture is basically the current RF spec with a few very minor changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
I just think it is absolutely stupid the way none of the housing developers work with NTL when they are building houses in cabled areas because there has been some new developments round here and none of them are cable enabled. One of them being in a town center.
There are new developments being made 'cable ready' (In the old 'Celtic' Region anyway can't say for the rest of the country), but ntl will never get into all sites even if they're on build.

Escapee 15-06-2004 19:53
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Burns
I know, we haven't had any calls from residents/local authorities complaining about hanging cables, etc. ;)

I didn't realise how far the Metro network went, until we discovered a box hidden under a desk when packing up for the 'move'. I agree that it was a mistake that the network was closed down considering the number of homes it passed. But wasn't the argument that it wasn't making any money?


The original CableTel architecture is basically the current RF spec with a few very minor changes.


There are new developments being made 'cable ready' (In the old 'Celtic' Region anyway can't say for the rest of the country), but ntl will never get into all sites even if they're on build.
The big problem I remember in South Wales was with the Cwmbran Hubsite area, the equipment that the corporate strategy and development team rigidly specified would not reach the 51Km or so from Cardiff Headend to Cwmbran, They specified another product that the manufacturer was unable to get working correctly.
A person (no names) in Cardiff planning team took it on himself to come up with a suitable fix for the problem, I then got involved with trialing this equipment and Cwmbran in fact started off as a few nodes that grew from that trial, there was no interactive capability, ie: no return path network because yet again the specified equipments link budget would not reach all the way to the headend, we actually trialed a forward path DFB optical transmitter to use as a return transmitter. ( approx 10.5dBm compared to return TX's approx 0dBm) This was combined at Newport and re-transmitted
back to Cardiff to enable people to purchase Front row movies and pay per view events on the analogue service.

If we had not done this development work I am sure the esteemed gentlemen at Hook would of done nothing and the area would of ended up with miles of ducts, cabinets and cabling but no TV or eventual broadband services to the area.

Did they thank us for coming up with a solution? Did they hell! the smelly stuff hit the fan as the prima donnas threw their toys out of their prams, they cancelled expenditure fro the backup feed to the area, and thats why Cwmbran has suffered outages lasting long periods on a few occassions because there was no back up facility for the area. I could go as far as to say the guy who made the tricky decision to push forward with the solution to the existing problem actually lost his job over it.

On the other subject yes, Metro were losing money but it was not a very large amount. If the Metro systems had been taken out of ntl they would of made a healthy profit, they were being dragged down by the huge expense created in large companies. They were employing full time accountants and paying extortionate sums to an external company to handle the billing. the company could of been a success with some good management and the closing of a few networks. The manager in charge of the operations was very weak and was unable to make any decisions, he wanted the whole lot to close instead of coming up with plans to turn the company into profit. He actually kept bringing the losses to ntl's attention, something he seemed to rapidly increase when he reached the age of 62 and apparently inherited a large house from an elderly relative.

The networks were closed and 37 jobs were lost because of one greedy man who wanted redundancy for himself! :rolleyes:

andrew_wallasey 15-06-2004 22:19
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee
The big problem I remember in South Wales was with the Cwmbran Hubsite area, the equipment that the corporate strategy and development team rigidly specified would not reach the 51Km or so from Cardiff Headend to Cwmbran, They specified another product that the manufacturer was unable to get working correctly.
A person (no names) in Cardiff planning team took it on himself to come up with a suitable fix for the problem, I then got involved with trialing this equipment and Cwmbran in fact started off as a few nodes that grew from that trial, there was no interactive capability, ie: no return path network because yet again the specified equipments link budget would not reach all the way to the headend, we actually trialed a forward path DFB optical transmitter to use as a return transmitter. ( approx 10.5dBm compared to return TX's approx 0dBm) This was combined at Newport and re-transmitted
back to Cardiff to enable people to purchase Front row movies and pay per view events on the analogue service.

If we had not done this development work I am sure the esteemed gentlemen at Hook would of done nothing and the area would of ended up with miles of ducts, cabinets and cabling but no TV or eventual broadband services to the area.

Did they thank us for coming up with a solution? Did they hell! the smelly stuff hit the fan as the prima donnas threw their toys out of their prams, they cancelled expenditure fro the backup feed to the area, and thats why Cwmbran has suffered outages lasting long periods on a few occassions because there was no back up facility for the area. I could go as far as to say the guy who made the tricky decision to push forward with the solution to the existing problem actually lost his job over it.

On the other subject yes, Metro were losing money but it was not a very large amount. If the Metro systems had been taken out of ntl they would of made a healthy profit, they were being dragged down by the huge expense created in large companies. They were employing full time accountants and paying extortionate sums to an external company to handle the billing. the company could of been a success with some good management and the closing of a few networks. The manager in charge of the operations was very weak and was unable to make any decisions, he wanted the whole lot to close instead of coming up with plans to turn the company into profit. He actually kept bringing the losses to ntl's attention, something he seemed to rapidly increase when he reached the age of 62 and apparently inherited a large house from an elderly relative.

The networks were closed and 37 jobs were lost because of one greedy man who wanted redundancy for himself! :rolleyes:
So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?

Stu038 16-06-2004 00:53
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?
Completely different technologies, with nowhere near the bandwidth available to operate anything other a few analogue channels and radio channels. Also not a hope in hell of the return path thats needed for the PPV, interactive or modem services.

When Leicester Cable took over responsibility for providing the off airs to the hundreds of council flats on the Metro system we had to build new systems in them all.
Caused a few problems in parts of the city when Metro wanted to pull the plug before we had even got to them.

Escapee 16-06-2004 07:48
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu038
Completely different technologies, with nowhere near the bandwidth available to operate anything other a few analogue channels and radio channels. Also not a hope in hell of the return path thats needed for the PPV, interactive or modem services.

When Leicester Cable took over responsibility for providing the off airs to the hundreds of council flats on the Metro system we had to build new systems in them all.
Caused a few problems in parts of the city when Metro wanted to pull the plug before we had even got to them.
Not true at all, the VHF systems use coax exactly the same as used from ntl's nodes, I think you are tallking about the old HF systems where there was one coax per channel.

The VHF stystems that extended to approx 300MHz could of been easily upgraded by breaking them down into smaller sections (reducing the cascades) and running fibre to the smaller areas, amplifier spacing would need to be looked at because of the increase bandwidth. (ie: higher losses at extended bandwidth) One of the old Metro systems in the Rhondda was actually a 860MHz system installed in the early 90's in some respects the system was more advanced than systems ntl were installing in the late 90's, unfortunately when the company was taken over by ntl progress stopped.

Many of the old HF Rediffusion systems owned by Metro were in a very bad state of repair, but to be fair the VHF systems were not that bad and it was a bad decision taken at the top from advice by a few mid managers to close them. Keeping the systems going and gradually upgrading as they started in southern Ireland would of been the best idea to retain and build on the existing customer base.

These systems would of provided a good basis for Microwave Video Distribution by breaking the networks up into smaller nodal areas if it was not cost affective to fibre to each area.

I bet the guys at the top would of made a different decision if they had been given an unbiased view! :rolleyes:

SMHarman 16-06-2004 09:40
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey
So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?
In the US CATV using similar infrastructure to NTL/TW is strung from poles. Reduces the cost of network build, in the same way they do it for Power and Phone, the only underground service is gas and sewerage, but even there, septic tanks are far more common.

andrew_wallasey 16-06-2004 10:18
Re: Expand the cable network
 
The point is though, I bet NTL coming and sticking poles in peoples streets there would be a lot of complains. I don't think BT are even allowed to put up new posts for the telephone.

SMHarman 16-06-2004 10:35
Re: Expand the cable network
 
BT are not, all underground for new build. Makes sense anyway, I imaging Fibre to the Home will not be happy on poles.

The underground build cost is what left the cable networks in this sorry state in the first place. The document I linked to earlier in this thread highlighted the fact that this takes 70+% of the capital investment, leaving less to be invested in the technology. Thus IMHO compared to Sky who lease a Sat, space and invest in the technology platform cable is going to struggle to keep up until the infrastructure build cost becomes a legacy issue (as it effectivly is for BT).

Escapee 16-06-2004 10:43
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman
BT are not, all underground for new build. Makes sense anyway, I imaging Fibre to the Home will not be happy on poles.

The underground build cost is what left the cable networks in this sorry state in the first place. The document I linked to earlier in this thread highlighted the fact that this takes 70+% of the capital investment, leaving less to be invested in the technology. Thus IMHO compared to Sky who lease a Sat, space and invest in the technology platform cable is going to struggle to keep up until the infrastructure build cost becomes a legacy issue (as it effectivly is for BT).
Fibre is available (was a few years ago anyway) with a strain wire fixed to the jacket for enable it to be strung overhead/between poles. fibre between poles would be far more reliable than coax/RF as fibre is not as easily broken by flexing as coax, and does not corrode due to moisture ingress that causes frequency response and high resistance contacts on connectors/joints.

Fibre does not suffer from EMC ingress/egress either, nor does it suffer from moisture ingress like coax does as mentioned above.

Mr_Burns 16-06-2004 12:14
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Whereas the central strength member used to be steel, it's now nylon in the cables we're supplied with.

Escapee 16-06-2004 12:26
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Burns
Whereas the central strength member used to be steel, it's now nylon in the cables we're supplied with.
Advances in technolgy :D

andrew_wallasey 16-06-2004 15:05
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Do NTL have fibre to all the CABs or just the big ones which are about 4/5 foot tall.

andrew_wallasey 16-06-2004 15:06
Re: Expand the cable network
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee
Advances in technolgy :D
Certainly it would be interesting to see if the advances in technology would enable better networks to be built if any are dont in the future.


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