School helped secret abortion
 

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I can't tell you how angry that made me when i heard it on the radio this morning.. totally appalling.

Even if I thought abortion was an option, there is no excuse for not consulting the legally responsible parties of the minor (parents).

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discusting.... i don't agree with abortion but i understand it was a viable option in this case, but not without consulting the parents!

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You don't need an excuse - what the school and doctor did was totally legal. The only debate on this is a moral issue.

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Maybe the mother should look at why her daughter felt she needed to speak to someone independant instead of her parent about the matter.

Any advice given to the girl by school advisers is confidential, so they would have no right to tell the mother, it was the daughters choice, she obviously didn't want to speak to her mother about it.

I love how much schools get blamed for these days, if parents were doing their job then teachers could get on with their own instead of having bring up other peoples children.

~Rant over :)

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:clap: :tu:

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Sorry, I totally disagree.
No school should have responsibility to make decisions of this kind without the consent of the parents.
I'm not a parent yet, and yet I'm utterly speechless at how disgusting I find this sort of politically correct tripe.

I would give my child to a school in the understanding that they would be looking after them in regard to their educational needs. Anything beyond that boundary would be a breach of my own responsibilities and rights as a parent.

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:clap: the whole post and :tu: that bit in particular

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"A scathing attack on the system?!"

Perhaps she should deliver a scathing attack on herself for failing to protect/influence/nurture/educate (delete as appropriate) her teenage daughter to the extent where she understands the consequences of her actions and doesn't have underage sex and get pregnant in the first place.

Either that or lay the blame at her daughter's feet for her actions. I would have thought the last person to blame is the 'system' - whatever that may be?

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Yes, it was legal - and that's why this is more than just the usual moral debate about abortion. The wider issue here, and a very troubling one it is, is that the State has given itself authority which over-rules the natural authority of the parent. As a father, that concerns me deeply and makes me more than a little angry. Why should the State over-rule any of my rights and responsibilities as a parent unless I am proven to have failed in those responsibilities for myself?

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Is that:

The girl changed her mind and the mother found out

or

The mother found out, then the girl changed her mind

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I agree with what you're saying Towny, however, how much proof is required that failiure has occured?

Is a pregnant, under-age daughter, who feels that she is unable to approach her mother about her problems enough evidence of failure?

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If a child has any special needs, such as diabetes etc then the school insists on knowing about it. Shame it doesn't feel any requirement to mirror that responsibility.

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Maby her mother is a model of respectability and a brilliant parent but the girl had an accident and was just scared of telling her parents. You know how some teenagers can be......

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Possibly. On the other hand, as Ramrod says, you can't predict the behaviour of adolescent teenagers, male or female. Either way, I object very strongly to a school teacher or social worker acting as sole arbiter of what constitutes parental failure. That is far, far too great a responsibility to be wielded by one person in summary fashion, as this tragic case very clearly demonstrates.

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Whilst I agree with most of the points made, with the amount of peer pressure and explicit sex on TV and in the media, these unfortunate circumstances are all to common, even in families of otherwise well cared for and loved children.

"There but for the grace of God" springs to mind.

One thing does concern me greatly, these decisions where not taken by teaching staff but by counsellors from the Mansfield Primary Care Trust and to quote the front page of the Daily Telegraph "the counsellors are not medically trained"
I think this is a very dangerous and totally immoral,although not illegal act.

How do any of you know how this parent cared for her child.

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IIRC from gmtv this morning, it was a chemical abortion - medication administered at two seperate intervals. The first had already been administered when the mother found out.

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Quite right, we don't. I'm not condoning the actions of the school/counsellors/authorities here, it may have been possible to handle the situation differently, but we don't know the facts.

What irritates me is the all too common pass the blame attitude that so many people demonstrate today. The mother seems to be of the belief that the whole situation is neither the fault of her, nor her daughter. I just think she needs to look at what caused the situation in the first place before attacking the actions of those who were trying to help, be that in a misguided manner or not.

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IMO it would've been even more tragic if a 14 year old had had a baby..... :erm:

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That is not always the case, I know personally of a similar case, both sets of parents rallied round and the child of this couple is a fabulous person, who lights up the life of everyone who meets him.

We do not know how well this young girl would have coped but to deny her parents any say in the matter is very, very, wrong.

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I'm sure he does. It doesn't make it right that a CHILD should bring another child into the world.

It was the girls choice. She didn't want her parents told, and it's not up to the school/counsellors to break that confidence.

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I am personally not sure what to think about this. Yes, I agree that the school should have informed the mother about this.

I also think that the pregnancy should not have happened in the first place, but, as Ramrod has stated accidents do happen.

We have heard the Mother complaining about how the school took the decision away from her, but has she told the daughter about the facts of life, or just relied on the School's sex ed classes to teach her. Has she asked the daughter if she followed the guidlines given in Sex Education?

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So she is "child enough" not to be allowed to have a baby, but "adult enough" to make this decision without any input from her parents and legal guardians.

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Where did I say that? :rolleyes:

Once again, fingers are being pointed at all those that are NOT to blame for the reason this incident occured in the first place.

The GIRL had underage sex, the GIRL got pregnant, the GIRL didn't want to tell her parents...... :shrug:

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in the bit he quoted :rolleyes:

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Nope, still can't see where I said that..... read it again and don't twist my words.

Sorry, but if it was a daughter of mine, as much as I'd be p1ssed of she got herself in such a mess in the first place, I would be encouraging her to terminate too.

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She isn't yet an adult, because of this, her parents should have been informed (imo).

Same here. That's not the issue.

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Always assuming that you got to know , and preferably not by overhearing her classmates talking about it.

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would a 14yr old deciding to kill a human being be more tragic than giving birth to it?

OB, i think it's pretty obvious we're not going to agree.. me being pro-life and you obviously being pro-choice (or pro-nolife, whatever)

I'll leave it there, I think I've said my peace.

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No, you're right it's not, just MPO. The school/counsellors did the right and legal thing. Whether it was morally right or not is another matter, which is entirely down to the indiviuals personal opinion.

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Oh, but don't you know, it's *always* someone else's fault...!

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Oh thats all right then, would the school have been as accommodating if she had broken a window. "please don,t tell my mum"
I am definately not anti abortion, but in this case the parents should have been informed, regardless of what a confused, mixed up 14 year old says.

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No. It's not human at six weeks. Learn about these things.

You were doing really well there until your underhand, ignorant comment in brackets. Red rep for you.

Good choice. But pop in and say hello when you're back in the real world. :)

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I think the problem here is that OB is talking about what the school are and aren't allowed to do. I don't know the rules about this, so I could be wrong (and will hopefully be corrected if I am) but any school counselling staff will almost certainly not be allowed to discuss anything the child said to them with anyone else (including parents), and this rule may apply to teachers as well.

I am not sure if the school should have advised the girl to have the abortion, but there may be circumstances we are unaware of that made them do this.


Edit: It looks like Schools are bound by confidentiality rules:

So, they would have needed her permission to tell her mother. Maybe the mother should be asking why the Girl didn't give permission?

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Then youn need to campaign for a change in the law. The school had to follow the LAW. Not their own moral stances.

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Where is Victoria Gillick when you need her,:) ( I found her very annoying BTW)

Edit. Don,t know how I managed to get on the wrong side of a discussion with OB, I should know better.;) :angel:

Legally you are of course correct, but I would guess that in the same situation you would want to be told, and I would dread to be the counsellor responsible, if you found out.:Yikes:

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Congratulations! :D
You get the honour of being my first red repper.

What is it before six weeks then.. a fish? Don't get me started on that..

I'm happy that we've both shown where we stand.. and I didn't feel that red repping you would help me prove my point, so I won't.

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Yup, thats my beef with the case....I feel that it's immoral to not bring the parents in on the whole discussion.

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I don't think the school 'advised' her to have an abortion...

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I don't think you had cause to red rep me - I'm happy to accept your pro-life stance. Your comment on pronolife (as opposed to prochoice which I am) was uncalled for.

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Hang on, I'm prolife as well, but I'm trying not to make it the issue in this topic, as I think the issue of the parents not being informed is what is of particular concern here. Nevertheless, OB, I think you are way off-beam making such a huge statement as 'not human' and suggesting silver needs to go and learn about it.

There is no doubt that a six-week-old unborn child has no hope of survival outside of his/her mother's body, due to being completely unready, biologically, to face the world. But to say the child is actually not human is stretching definitions way too far the child has the genetic code of a human being. If s/he is not human, what is s/he? And we haven't even begun to discuss the possibility that there might be more to being human than the biochemical machine that is your body and brain. What about the possibility of a spirit? Science has not (arguably cannot) answer that question. If we have a spirit, or essence, that can exist apart from our bodies, we have to ask when that spirit arises (and where it comes from, for that matter). And if it arises at conception, then an unborn child at any stage of development is arguably as human as the rest of us, both spiritually and biologically.

I am not setting out to try to prove my point of view here. I just think it is important to consider that there are alternative explanations and to avoid making sweeping pronouncements. :)

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Actually, the article appears to imply that rather than state it. It actually states I added the words "(the Girl)" to make it clearer.

Having said that, she could have decided to abort, and then just told the school.

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I understand how the counsellors had to keep the knowledge secret from the mother (thats fine), what I cannot understand is how a medical procedure was carried out without her knowledge or consent. The mind boggles.....

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If you are effected by an issue like this you must make sweeping pronouncements, this girl can't wait around until they catagorically proven that spirit does or does not exist

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But telling her parents is her choice not that of a teacher or anyone else, I would think anyone that did break the girls confidence would infact lose their job.

I don't see how anyone else can be blamed in this situation other than the girl and her mother.

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Great, reasoned post Towny :)

I posted a fact, that's all. A six week old foetus IS NOT a human. s1lv3rs statement was factually incorrect. Everyone is entitled to their OPO about spirits/essences etc etc (I'm also athiest as well as prochoice), but shouldn't let their own emotional and personal beliefs cloud a factual issue. :)

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Difficult situation as I saw quite a few times during my surgery days. No automatic rights for parents and even stricter for things like terminations etc for underage girls, total no go area for disclosing information. I think the school probably advised her of the options that were available but ultimately it was her decision. I can see why mum is very very upset but from my experience she didn't have to be told. From a moral point of view I'm not sure, why didn't the girl want her mum to be told, what was she afraid of. Was the thought of mum knowing worse than actually having the termination.

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Unfortunately, the Law (in this case Rules) and Morals are often two totally different things.

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Yes, the law is the law, morals are different from person to person.

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I'm with you on tis one Ramrod...

I am not a a parent (yet), but for me, this is about moral issues - not legal ones...

It is legal to do what they did - however abhorent it may be to my own personal beliefs - so lets get that out of the way.

This child was pregnant at 14 - therefore she had had underage sex, therefore she had broken the LAW. Is it not the moral (if not necessarily legal) duty of the persons who are acting in loco parentis to advise the parent/legal guardian of the child that this has occured, and what action they intend to take?
If they caught the child drinking or smoking underage, I'm sure they would tell the parents - regardless of the wishes of the girl.

From a moral standpoint (and this is always an inflamatory area) The girl did not want to tell her mother because she thought she would be angry - a perfectly normal teenage response - once the mother knew - she offered support and the chance to keep the child.

We do not know why the girl first decided to abort, but once she new her mother would support her, she regretted that decision (and by then it was already too late to stop the abortion). So we now have a teenager who has gone through an abortion which she did not want (by the time it was completed), a mother who feels that her child cannot trust her, and visa-versa, and a health authority that made a decision with a huge effect on a minors life with no consultation with the parents, or even (by what we can read) a period for the girl to consider her actions.

I for one am amazed that this is legal, and would hope that the furore surrounding this case leads to a scruitinisation (if not a change) of the law.

IN MY OPINION this is a step too far for political correctness and the rights of children.

would they have still not informed the parents if the girl was 12 or even 10? (some girls are physically mature at that age). There has to be a line.....

On the one hand people are saying "we should not have to make these decisions - that is the role of the parent" and on the other, they are keeping the parent out of decisions that have a far greater impact on the lives and stability of the families.


ok - I've said my piece - these are opinions, and you may feel free to disagree. Lets not get into a personal slanging match - lets just put our opinions on the table and if needs be agree to disagee. :ghugs:

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I think she took the tablets that induce abortion - the ones you take a few days apart? So it was fairly easy for it to take place without the mother knowing about it until it was all over.

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Maybe I missed this in the article but how do we know the mother didn't force her to change her mind based on the mother's moral beliefs?

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We do not know that. The article doesn't say. Neither does it say how the 'counsellor' may have nudged the girl towards his/her own moral beliefs. A moral vacuum is an interesting place to be when discussing theory ;) - but in the real world, I think it unlikely that any of the adults involved managed not to put a little of their own point of view into the discussion.

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It's just that if I was in the position of the mother, and realised it was irreversable, I would have considered going along with the abortion idea in order to relieve the guilt of the girl. ---- but I guess this would then leave her unable to appeal to change the system.

Counsellors are trained - or at least told not to push their beliefs, but mother's aren't.

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Ironic really, that this girl, as a child, has the right to choose compared to her parents lack of choice and yet as a potential parent herself has the choice of life and death over her unborn baby which has no choice whatsoever. Seems like double standards to me.

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Agreed - We only have the mothers statement to go on - she stated that having told the daughter that they would support her, the daughter wanted to keep the child.

No matter how well trained a counsellor is, it is human nature to talk in more favourable terms about the choice that you would prefer someone to make.

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I'm not sure how I would/will act if my son came home to tell me that he'd got a young girl pregnant - but I like to hope I'd be able to talk to him about it.

But unless I've BEEN in that situation I guess I'll never really know - so i'm unable to say anything against either the girl - the mother or the school. All of whom (i HOPE) acted with the young girls best interest in mind.

Having said all that - I can understand why mum is pi$$ed with the school.

I dont know - I really don't, but I guess I'm going to have to really start to think about these things more.

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ok my view won this:

the parents should have been notified of the situation, reading the article they(the school) are not legally bound to disclose details when school 'community workers or even teachers are talked to about sensitive issues, this to me is grossly unfair as the issue is trumatic for the girl and should be treated as a 'special circumstance.

what is going through the heads of that school ?

she is way too young to make the decision for herself, as it showed when she changed her mind but it was too late.

atleast the mother of the 14 year old should have been notified to protect her daughter and guide her through her decision, if the mother is supportive and can provide the necessary emotional and informational needs as to what the child should do.......

although the only logical reason i see the school from not telling the childs parents was because of some parents reaction to this type of situation, which can infact have a detremental impact on the child such as being 'shouted at' told 'your not keeping it' etc it can also be harmful to the foetus because of the distress caused.

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....and the people who carried out an abortion on an underage girl without her mothers knowledge or consent.

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lol....I understand how it was done, just can't believe that it was allowed to take place without her knowledge or consent. Where does it stop? What if the girl was 10?
.....and as someone else pointed out.....if the girl had broken the law somehow they would have informed the mother....

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What if they were to tell the mother after the abortion has taken place, and just tell her about the underage sex rather than the pregnancy incured.

Anyway there is some more information in the BBC report

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For my part, I believe that the school (counsellors) acted properly with regards to the law. I also feel that they acted properly according to my morality (as far as I can determine from the article). I am of the opinion that although parents assume the top-level responsibility that the responsibility is also shared between the different parties that care for that child. Also, at the age of 14, the girl was at an age where she was beginning to take responsibility for herself. In this case, the girl sought adult guidance from a responsible source (well I should hope that the school counsellors were responsible) about what her choices were, she made that choice. I believe that the counsellors acted properly and had a duty to the girl not to inform her parents against her wishes. Contrary to what the mother believes it does seem that the girl was being looked after properly.

The point people have been making about 'what if she were to break a window' is interesting and I've had to think about that one a bit. The conclusion that I have come to is that for a start, not every misdemeanour committed by a child in school is reported back to the parents. Secondly, in those situations, the school defines the punishment and informing the parents is part of the punishment. Finally and most importantly, from my moral point of view the girl had not done anything wrong, she had made a mistake but in the solution to the mistake she learnt a very hard lesson (call that her punishment if you will) but she acted properly and sought adult guidance from a source that one would hope were well trained to deal with the situation.

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I fail entirely to see why the girl's mother should have to provide consent for this abortion. It's not the mother who is going to have carry the baby around for 9 months, it's not the mother who is going to be stuck with the kid after it is born (yes, I know the mother may assist, but ultimately the responsibility is going to be on the girl involved).

What if the mother were pro-life whereas the girl was pro-choice? Do you really think that it is fair for the mother to be able to veto the girl's decision when it is the girl who is going to be the one primarily affected?

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I think the issue was that the mother was not even told, never mind asked for consent.

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I don`t see why there should be any obligation to tell the mother, as far as I am concerned she has no rights as far as having any controlling influence on the decisions being made so she doesn`t have to be informed. I concur that it would have been preferable if the girl involved felt that she could go to her parents, but clearly that was not the case even though it seems like that was a mistake on her part.

Let me throw in a little hypothetical situation for you here. As I mentioned above, in this instance it would seem that this girl could have gone to her mother. But there will be situations in which telling the parents could cause more harm then good if the parents were the sort who would react to it in the wrong way. If you have the possibility of that scenario I do not feel that there can ever be an obligation for the parents to be informed.

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exactly!

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Are you a parent?

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But now all this is over and done with, the girl is still this woman's daughter, and as she is still legally a child, the mother is responsible for her. The mother will have had a great deal of responsibility to bear in managing the consequences of this pregnancy, whether it was allowed to progress or not. We are beginning to discuss this in isolation from the wider implications, and I don't think it's right to try to define the 'rights' of this girl or her school to handle this situation without reference to her mother if we are not also going to discuss how this might infringe the longer-term rights and responsibilities of the mother.

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As I`ve stated above, I don`t believe that the mother has any rights in this situation, so as far as I am concerned they are entirely superfluous to the discussion. This is a private matter between the girl, her counsellors and her doctors, if the girl does not want her mother to know then the mother should not be told.

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No, but I fail to see how whether I have any children or not is relevant to my viewpoint on the matter. As it does happen I did have personal problems when I was in my teenage years that my parents did not find out about until many years after the fact so I can examine the issue from that perspective. At that time I did not have the benefit of a counsellor that I could turn to support, but I can tell you that I would have been damn peeved if they had gone to my parents, and if anything, it would most likely have made the situation worse.

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The law allows for doctors not to advise the parents when a child of 14 wishes to go on the pill, so I assume that the medical staff involved were within their rights not to tell the mother about this procedure.

This whole situation is unfortunate, but probably more common than we realise (not all mothers go to the tabloids when they do find out - if they ever do)

As I have stated before, my personal belief if that the parents should be consulted, however I am not so naive as to assume that there is never a time when doing this will do more harm than good. (I know of a friend, who at 17 told her parents she was pregnant, and they told her to either abort, or leave their house and never come back- fortunately her boyfriend (now husband of 7 years) and his family were more than supportive - even when her dad went round to their house, where she was now living, and threatened to "beat the living s#1t" out of the boyfriend).

We do not know what sort of relationship the girl has/had with her mother, just that she didn't feel that she could confide in her about this issue. When it all came to light, we are informed that the mother was supportive, and the girl realised she could have told her, and decided to keep the baby (unfortunately too late).

What we do not know is whether the mother convinced her of this, or whether the girl wanted too, but was too ashamed to discuss it with her mother for fear of upsetting her.

People can have a wonderful relationship with their parents, but because it is so good, and the parents have been so supportive, they feel that something like this is going to be a cause of embarrasment for them and they feel that this may sour the relationship. Unfortunately for most, this turns out to be a false fear, but by the time they realise that parents still love and support you even if you do something that you think(maybe correctly) will cause them embarrasment and pain it is too late, as the percieved lack of trust will more than likely cause the relationship to sour.

In a large number of cases love will still forgive all.....

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I don't agree. The mother has legal responsibility for the girl for another four years. It is hopelessly blinkered to take one single incident in the life of a child and try to manage it any way that does not take the wider picture into account.

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Hmm! As a teacher I am rather surprised that the school allowed the situation to develop in this way.It is my experience that usually the school will bend over backwards to ensure that parents are informed because parents are regarded as an integral part of the relationship a student has with the school.It would be different IF the student concerned was in care but I gather that the there were no problems flagged with the local social services.

In fact if this had happened to me I would be just as incandescent about it.Not because I think I have the right to be consulted but because I would be the one to have to deal with the mental aftermath that an abortion will bring to the child concerned.It's very regrettable that this has occurred because schools and parents are so often mistrustful of each other.This can do nothing to help.

Incog.

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This is obviously a very tragic situation, but it does highlight why I have argued previously that the parents should not be automatically informed regardless of the wishes of the girl.

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Although the parent is responsible for the child, a baby is a much longer term commitment. Once the girl becomes an adult, it will be entirely her responsibility.

At the same age she would be choosing her GCSE's what authority do parents have in that matter?

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But there are no indications that THIS mother would have been like that.Also what's to stop someone with an agenda using undue pressure on another 14 year old by resorting to this get out clause.

Any responsible councillor,health worker,social worker,teacher would have INSISTED that some consultation took place with a parent because no doubt at some point this child will need some help.It may take years but abortion can have an adverse affect emotionally some time after the abortion.I think that someone DIDN'T think this through enough.

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I think it would be more useful to try to define, as broadly as possible, what responsibility a parent has for a teenage child, rather than picking out any single example here or there.

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I have to say, at the moment, I believe that I can smell a sociological theory bubbling away underneath all this - one which wants to promote the idea that the rights and resonsibilities of a parent towards his/her offspring are ultimately subservient to those of the State. I hope I'm wrong. I don't like it one little bit.

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It's not had to tell you have no children. Parents are resposible for their children and have EVERY right to be informed of any situations involving them, be they good or bad. What if the treatment had gone wrong in some way and the girl had ended up in hospital or worse ?

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If you ever have children you will understand and then also feel rather silly about your stance here today. I don't mean that to be patronising in any way. It's just that having children changes your outlook completely:)

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That was incredibly patronising. Their stance isn't 'silly' at all.

Have you ever been a 14 year old girl in this kind of trouble? I'll admit, I had a 'scare' at the same age. Thank god it was only a scare - I wouldn't have had the baby and I certainly wouldn't have wanted my mother involved, as much as I dearly love her. What about the girls rights??..... :rolleyes:

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And your bank balance.:rolleyes:
Incognitas is correct, if the " non medically trained counsellors" had an ounce of common sense the would have realised that the mother was almost certain to find out, and they should looked at the long term, rather than a quick fix, and made sure the mother was informed.

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It would appear (to me anyway) that the girl asked for her parents not to be informed, and that was taken at face value by the people concerned - I personally would like to know if they asked her why, or did any checks on the parents (it would not be the first time that a person has come over all goody goody in the press, but in reality was anything but...)

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Don`t worry, that isn`t a mistake I intend to make.

I honestly do not believe that would change my position, I can personally look at any situation objectively and deal with it in that manner, it is the approach that I take to running my life. I belive that the child has rights, and in this instance I believe that those rights outweigh the rights of the parent. I do not let emotion dictate my actions on this sort of issue, and I would not let them dictate a change in my opinion of someone's fundamental rights.

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I dont see what the problem is.

What if the kid didnt want a baby yet the mother refused to allow an abortion? Is the child then forced to offer the baby up for adoption?

The school made the best of a bad situation, the mother probably wants compo and nothing else.

I applaude the school for its actions it made the decision when there was no clear right or wrong.

Incidently I am pro choice, abortion should remain legal, if we outlaw it people will die horrendous painfull deaths as a result of the backstreet clinics.

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Thats beside the point. I am talking about my point of view as a parent and how my outlook changed whenI became a parent. As I said, I didn't mean to patronise, just to explain how views change with parenthood.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

i cant believe some people think the 14 year old is allowed to make her own decision, some people need to realise the parents needs to know the full facts of what is going on it, the decision affects both the mother of the unborn child and the mother of the 14 year old.

its just blatant mis handling of the situation to even think a 14 year old should be left to make this sort of decision without parental knowledge/ help.

as shown at the end of it all the child regretted the decision she made with the counsillers...

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Read my post again Kronas, what if theres a conflict of interests? What if the mother of the 14 year old refused permition for her daughter to have an abortion?
Where does that leave the 14 year old? where does that leave the baby when it is born, neglected? brought up with adoptive parents whikst the 14 year old has to live with the trauma of having to give her baby away, that irrespective of whether or not she wants it.

The school made an excellent decision and was forced to do something it should never have been expected to do.
Abortion is not a good thing, but its legal because its safer that way. I couldnt care less about it, its a necessary evil I guess.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

how can a 14 year old financially and time consumingly provide care for it, you expect the mother to look after it ? excuse me but we all take responsability for our own actions.

so whats going to happen when they find out she is pregnant (whats the huge bump doing there ?) they will wonder ?

and then when they go to the doctors, and the doctor says she's pregnant, whichever way you see it, the reasonable thing to do is notify the parents, at the end of it all, she is 14, she is young, she needs guidence.

the fact is she wanted to keep it, but it ws too late because she talked to counsellors rather then her parents, she should have told them or the authorties should have, and taken it from there.

nice to see the state 'own' you. :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

We can 'what if' about this all day. The bottom line is that the girl isn't an adult, by quite a few years. If she had been 17.5 then I can just about see how a decision like this might be made but in this case she was only 14.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Kronas you must be kidding,

Do some research on what was happening in back street abortion clinics pre legalisation. I hope there are pictures too because I am sure you will hurl and be traumatised by the stories. We arent talking surgeons here, we are talking people with the surgical skill of you and I terminating pergnancies and pregnant womens lives through bad practices and what amounts to butchery. All with no aneasthetic.

But hey still because we are liberal I guess that doesnt count.

Seriously though Kronas, please read up on what was happeneing in the 50's and 60's and even further back, it was somehting that can be pushed aside and is probably the ONLY reason abortion was legalised.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

no i dont think this is a 'kidding' matter ?



stop clinging to the past!!!


im sorry this is 2004 and we are talking about an individual case.

that has no bearing on the present situation we are discussing.

whichever way you look at it, i may be young, but i know what i am saying and im sure many others agree that a parent has a right to protect and help there offspring in times of need, i know how niave you can be at 14, it wasent untill i was 15-16 until i started to 'grow up' and change my attitude and prospect on things.

sometimes decisions have to be made, if the need arises with regards to the child wanting to keep the unborn and the parents not wanting it, then something has to give and social services or someone has to step in, she should not be pregnant at that age, hell even having sex that age, im all for freedom but there is a time and place, and im afraid 14 is just too young for this sort of responsability.

you have a duty to protect your children, not encourage acts of unmoralistic mannerisms.......

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

My job as a teacher is to educate NOT to interfere in what should be FAMILY decisions .If a young girl comes to me for help it not my job to tell her what to do but to seek help and advice from others to aid the child.One of those who will need to available to help is the child's parent/guardian.Only in the case of EDUCATIONAL matters do I feel I can offer advice and help without reference to the parent/guradian.I NEVER SIGNED ON TO ORGANISE ABORTIONS,JUST tO TEACH.

Incog.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

You`ve missed the point, the argument was if she was forced to keep the child, she would then be in the position you describe above, which she could be if the mother had the right to overrule that choice.



Again, missed the point, the argument was that the mother had forced her not to have the abortion and then she had to give up the child. In that instance you wouldn`t need to hide the bumnp.

You don`t know that for an absolute fact, she may have been pressured into keeping it by the mother once she found out.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

forced ? who said she would be forced to keep it ?


again we dont know that.

as my reply above we dont know, my replies wre judged on what we do know and the posts made thereafter in quotation.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I think that children should have a route to turn to other than their parents. She may not have been able to talk to her parents, or have difficulty for some other reasons.

Where would have this girl turned to if the school had to inform her parents? she may not have gone forward which could be more serious. Forcing the schools to tell parents is a bad path which we should not go down, advising them to tell should happen but if they did not want their parents to know that should be respected.

Under 16's have rights to you know

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

TimeWarrior's original post was about a situation where the mother could overrule the decision of the daughter, ie. force her to keep it.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

With all due respect to you all that article just didn't give us enough info to know just what the mother would have thought and felt if she had been approached correctly in the matter.We also don't know enough about what choices the health worker also provided the child with so I think we are all pushing our own thoughts and feelings onto the situation.

We are probably getting hot under the collar to no good point.I just hope that in future all professionals in this field will think far enough ahead to really think about the individual child.Abortion,adoption or trying to play parent while getting an education are all choices that need clear and careful thought from ALL concerned in the situation.Whatever choice is to be made it should not be made lightly.I'm thankful it's not one I've had to deal with personally.

Incog.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

let me ask you a question what do you think the position of teachers are in school ?

counsellors ?

also would you rather someone else make the decision on your future such as this, it does affect the parents after all as well as the child i would like to remind you in the eyes of the law she is still a child, a parent or guardian must look after her ?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

But it isn`t the parent`s decision, it is the decision of the girl. If the mother isn`t making the decision and the girl does not want the mother to know then the mother should not be informed. It is nothing to do with "other people" making the decision.

If you are going to argue that in the eyes of the law she is a child, then you are also arguing that she would ultimately have no say in the matter. I hope that isn`t the argument you are trying to put across.