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Russ 10-05-2004 13:22
UK teen celibacy
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3699851.stm

At last - a US idea being promoted over here that I finally agree with :D

kronas 10-05-2004 13:38
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
oh joy, people promoting abstinence from sex by using the STD line of 'scaremongering' its not enough that individuals themselves should be able to make that decision of whether they choose to engage in sex for 'recreational' purposes on there own accord :rolleyes:

Quote:
Abstinence is the only way truly to protect yourself against getting a sexually transmitted disease, especially as a teenager."
thats just utter stupidity, anyone can get STD's, even if they have abstained, you can be as careful as you want to be there is always a risk.

Chimaera 10-05-2004 13:39
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Yes - but a silver ring that American kids get charged $12 for will be £10 for British kids?
Someone is raking it in! :D

Russ 10-05-2004 13:40
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
You call using STDs scaremongering? Have you seen the figures in the UK for teens who have contracted an STD?

kronas 10-05-2004 13:40
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
You call using STDs scaremongering? Have you seen the figures in the UK for teens who have contracted an STD?

yes and education is the key.

the only reason the americans are acheiving prominance in abstaining is because bush is a huge advocate of abstaining from sex how many millions is he spending on such projects to 'tell' teens to abstain ?

EDIT: just spotted the note on the BBC site

Quote:
The Bush administration has given $120 million to abstinence groups.

Russ 10-05-2004 13:43
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
yes and education is the key.
And that's what they're trying to do - educate teens about the risks of STD and promoting a pretty good level of protection against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
thats just utter stupidity, anyone can get STD's, even if they have abstained, you can be as careful as you want to be there is always a risk.
Pardon me for asking but how does someone get an STD if they abstain?

Jon M 10-05-2004 13:46
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
he may be referring to herpes via cold sores.. but I'm not sure if it can be transferred mouth to mouth even if you can contract it via oral sex

caledoniangold 10-05-2004 13:55
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
cold sore herpes and std herpes are caused by different, but related, virii. Herpes simplex virus 1 (HSV1) is the cold sore one whilst HSV2 causes genital warts.

CG

Chris 10-05-2004 13:55
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
he may be referring to herpes via cold sores.. but I'm not sure if it can be transferred mouth to mouth even if you can contract it via oral sex
But that would only be a case of catching a STD without sex if you accept the Bill Clinton definition of 'sexual relations' :erm:

I'm very interested to know, how is it possible to pass on a SEXUALLY Transmitted Disease without SEXUAL contact?

It is undeniable that if your aim is to avoid STDs (and unwanted pregnancy, for that matter), the safest course of action is not to have sex. End of. All discussion about whether abstinence is practical and desirable as a message to teach to teenagers is very valid and interesting, but it should not be clouded by spurious argument about very basic biological facts.

philip.j.fry 10-05-2004 13:58
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
I'm with Kronas, education is the key, I don't think there's anything wrong with teenagers being sexually active, the dangers are that a lot seem to take too many risks (in the physical and emotional sense) and I'd like to see better sex ed. My own sex ed in school as far as I can remember it (about 10 years ago now) was pretty confused because no-one wants to deal with such a taboo subject.

They might be advocating a good-level of protection against STD's, but then it's on about the same level as 'lock yourself away in a room and you won't get hit by a car'. From my point of view it's not dealing with the problem, it's instead trying to stop the problem existing.

ZrByte 10-05-2004 14:00
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Pardon me for asking but how does someone get an STD if they abstain?
Im not sure wich ones, but several STD's can be transferred by sitting on a public toilet seat if its improperly cleaned (Herpes beeing one, theres another common one aswel but I cant think of it right now)

Jon M 10-05-2004 14:01
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrByte
Im not sure wich ones, but several STD's can be transferred by sitting on a public toilet seat if its improperly cleaned (Herpes beeing one, theres another common one aswel but I cant think of it right now)
Sorry, common urban myth.. you cannot contract any STD's via toilet seats.
Most if not all STD's are transferred via mucus membrane contact. The nasties cannot survive outside that environment.

Chris 10-05-2004 14:04
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philip.j.fry
They might be advocating a good-level of protection against STD's, but then it's on about the same level as 'lock yourself away in a room and you won't get hit by a car'. From my point of view it's not dealing with the problem, it's instead trying to stop the problem existing.
I don't think that is in any way equivalent. Lock yourself in a room and you are completely unable to do anything with your life. Abstain from sex and you can carry on and do everything you ever wanted except that one thing, and even that exception is temporary - remember, we're talking about abstinence here, not outright celibacy.

Sex is great, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all of life. Take it from someone who knows - my first time was wedding night, aged 26. No regrets whatsoever. :)

ZrByte 10-05-2004 14:05
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
Sorry, common urban myth.. you cannot contract any STD's via toilet seats.
Most if not all STD's are transferred via mucus membrane contact. The nasties cannot survive outside that environment.
I guess I stand corrected then :)

philip.j.fry 10-05-2004 14:14
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
I don't think that is in any way equivalent. Lock yourself in a room and you are completely unable to do anything with your life. Abstain from sex and you can carry on and do everything you ever wanted except that one thing, and even that exception is temporary - remember, we're talking about abstinence here, not outright celibacy.
And what is the thing that most teenagers want to do most? :D I disagree, I do think that it is a good analogy because it involves a curtailment of regular activities when there is no need if sensible precautions are taken.

Also, the exception is not temporary because you restrict yourself to having intercourse with only one person. Sex is not the same with every person and every time you 'do it'. Now I know that you made that choice and have no regrets but I don't think that that can work for everybody. I think the important thing is that teenagers are given the choice, that they have all of the options presented to them with the associated benefits and risks and how to best protect themselves from the risks, and that they don't have one ideal pushed onto them more than another.

Flubflow 10-05-2004 14:16
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
And that's what they're trying to do - educate teens about the risks of STD and promoting a pretty good level of protection against them.



Pardon me for asking but how does someone get an STD if they abstain?
I could vastly reduce my chance of heart disease by abstaining from fried breakfasts and cream buns. I could reduce my chance of a car accident to nill by not driving anymore. Life would be pretty dull though.

These people are using the STD hot potato as an excuse to promote their own wierd agenda. It is blitheringly obvious that if you abstain from sex then you won't get STDs but it is totally impractical.

Fact is, people fcuk. Young people fcuk a lot. It has been this way since the dawn of time. Trying to promote abstinence it a silly way of going about promoting protection against STD's in this society today.
If you'll excuse the crudity, the best simple promotion I heard for protection against STDs was.... "Wear a wubber or w*** off instead".
:)

Jon M 10-05-2004 14:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
Sex is great, but it is not the be-all-and-end-all of life. Take it from someone who knows - my first time was wedding night, aged 26. No regrets whatsoever. :)
Exactly, I think the STD issue is actually secondary to the emotional effects having sex too early can have on you.

I didn't have sex until I was married, but we did things before getting married that I regret and they affected our relationship for the worse not the better.

"Trying before buying" is a sure fire way of showing someone that you will take what you can get without any of the responsibility.
Just think of people in WHSmiths who go in.. read the magazine, get what they want from it and put it back without paying for what they've enjoyed.

People have the same attitude to sex these days.

Chris 10-05-2004 14:25
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
These people are using the STD hot potato as an excuse to promote their own wierd agenda. It is blitheringly obvious that if you abstain from sex then you won't get STDs but it is totally impractical.
You are of course free to believe what you wish, but I find the way you caricature somebody else's view of the world really quite offensive. There is nothing wierd about promoting a lifestyle which devotes itself exclusively to one other person. Can I suggest you have a lot of growing up to do if you can't see this.

As for 'impractical' - quite clearly it is not impractical, or else such a large number of people in the US (and increasingly here) would not be doing it. I would not have done it, and I'm as fallible as anyone else.

- - - - - - -

A general question for the discussion (not in reply to the above): It seems to me, whenever this topic comes up, that there is a surprisingly passionate response from some that borders on claiming abstinence is an evil throwback to the dark ages. I'm curious to know why this is. Is it because promotion of a world view different to their own poses some kind of a threat?

Flubflow 10-05-2004 14:44
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
You are of course free to believe what you wish, but I find the way you caricature somebody else's view of the world really quite offensive. There is nothing wierd about promoting a lifestyle which devotes itself exclusively to one other person. Can I suggest you have a lot of growing up to do if you can't see this.

As for 'impractical' - quite clearly it is not impractical, or else such a large number of people in the US (and increasingly here) would not be doing it. I would not have done it, and I'm as fallible as anyone else.

- - - - - - -

A general question for the discussion (not in reply to the above): It seems to me, whenever this topic comes up, that there is a surprisingly passionate response from some that borders on claiming abstinence is an evil throwback to the dark ages. I'm curious to know why this is. Is it because promotion of a world view different to their own poses some kind of a threat?
We are not talking about one persons beliefs and choices.
There is nothing wierd with one persons individual choice not to "do it" or to wait and stay with one person. I respect that. There is however some very wrong with an organisation of people promoting the idea as if it is the definitive way ahead (and making money off it by selling rings).
If these people think it is such a great idea then they should just get on with it on an individual basis without trying to use the STD playing card and leave everyone else to make up their own minds.

There is always an equally passionate response that borders on claiming that abstinence is indeed a throwback to the dark ages where sex is regarded as the big evil.

Chris 10-05-2004 15:15
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
We are not talking about one persons beliefs and choices.
There is nothing wierd with one persons individual choice not to "do it" or to wait and stay with one person. I respect that. There is however some very wrong with an organisation of people promoting the idea as if it is the definitive way ahead (and making money off it by selling rings).
If these people think it is such a great idea then they should just get on with it on an individual basis without trying to use the STD playing card and leave everyone else to make up their own minds.
By that token, all political parties and pressure groups are wierd, because they all exist to promote their ideas as the definitive way ahead.

Quote:
There is always an equally passionate response that borders on claiming that abstinence is indeed a throwback to the dark ages where sex is regarded as the big evil.
It is a common misconception that the Bible consders sex evil. Sadly centuries of dogma from that lot in Rome have only helped confuse the issue. The Bible (and let's face it, it's Christians we're talking about here) says sex is a gift from God, and therefore is a good thing. However it also says it is a gift that can be misused, and such misuse is evil. I'll expand on that if anybody wants me to; I have no intention of forcing another religious discussion on everyone. :)

Damien 10-05-2004 15:19
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
by the way it is possible to get a STD without having sex. and thats not including needles and such. Bad hygiene can lead to it as well

Flubflow 10-05-2004 15:36
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
By that token, all political parties and pressure groups are wierd, because they all exist to promote their ideas as the definitive way ahead.


It is a common misconception that the Bible consders sex evil. Sadly centuries of dogma from that lot in Rome have only helped confuse the issue. The Bible (and let's face it, it's Christians we're talking about here) says sex is a gift from God, and therefore is a good thing. However it also says it is a gift that can be misused, and such misuse is evil. I'll expand on that if anybody wants me to; I have no intention of forcing another religious discussion on everyone. :)
Sex, and the decision to do it or not to do it, is a deeply personal issue and there should be no pressure group saying that you must do it or you must not do the most natural thing in the world. You should be given the impartial education and choices - no more and no less.
Political will has tried to force itself on moral issues in the past and has repeatedly failed.
I find it offensive that someone should think it is wrong of anyone to want to have sex with whoever they want and whenever they want and that their way is the better way. We are not parrots, we are 99% ape and we are not monogamus by instinct. We do have a very well developed brain but I'd rather put it to better use than worrying about the moral issues of sex.

Chris 10-05-2004 15:45
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
Sex, and the decision to do it or not to do it, is a deeply personal issue and there should be no pressure group saying that you must do it or you must not do the most natural thing in the world. You should be given the impartial education and choices - no more and no less.
So, your personal policy is to give people impartial information. Pressure groups and political groups promoting different ways of doing things is part of a healthy democracy. The only thing you can't do is tell people that they have no right to campaign for what they believe in. Why is this issue such a sacred cow that it's not even acceptable to promote a point of view that differs from the majority?

Quote:
Political will has tried to force itself on moral issues in the past and has repeatedly failed.
Possibly because politicians are not best suited to lead debates on morality. But I think that's for another topic.

Quote:
I find it offensive that someone should think it is wrong of anyone to want to have sex with whoever they want and whenever they want and that their way is the better way.
You are entitled to your opinion, but it might be helpful to you to bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of the people on this planet follow a religion of one kind or another, and the majority of those religions take attitudes to sex that stop well short of 'whenever, wherever, with whoever'. If you are offended by people who choose to put sex into a moral framework, then you are offended by most of the world's population.

Quote:
We are not parrots, we are 99% ape and we are not monogamus by instinct. We do have a very well developed brain but I'd rather put it to better use than worrying about the moral issues of sex.
Again, an opinion you're welcome to, as long as you recognise that in global terms most people disagree. Good grief, even atheists generally hold moral issues more highly than this.

Damien 10-05-2004 16:12
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Hey, I am an atheist! but that doesn't necessarily mean I dont have moral views my view is that you (try to) live your life in a way that doesn't affect people in a negative way. So sex, as long as both people constant and niter has a secreat sti that they are fully aware of then its fine

Jerrek 10-05-2004 16:26
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
thats just utter stupidity, anyone can get STD's, even if they have abstained, you can be as careful as you want to be there is always a risk.
How does one get a SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASE if you abstain?

Jerrek 10-05-2004 16:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
It is blitheringly obvious that if you abstain from sex then you won't get STDs but it is totally impractical.
No. It is impractical for YOU. Not for everyone, for YOU, and others that lack total discipline and control over bodily urges. Not everyone has such a complete lack of control and discipline. Don't blame others for your short comings.

orangebird 10-05-2004 16:33
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Hey, I am an atheist! but that doesn't necessarily mean I dont have moral views my view is that you (try to) live your life in a way that doesn't affect people in a negative way. So sex, as long as both people constant and niter has a secreat sti that they are fully aware of then its fine
:tu: Couldn't agree more

IMO, abstaining to avoid STD/STIs is treating the symptoms and not the cause... (excuse the 'pun'):erm:

Shaun 10-05-2004 16:36
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
No. It is impractical for YOU. Not for everyone, for YOU, and others that lack total discipline and control over bodily urges. Not everyone has such a complete lack of control and discipline. Don't blame others for your short comings.
But you have sex J, bit hypocritical criticizing him for lacking "total discipline and control over bodily urges"!!! :erm:

Damien 10-05-2004 16:41
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
No. It is impractical for YOU. Not for everyone, for YOU, and others that lack total discipline and control over bodily urges. Not everyone has such a complete lack of control and discipline. Don't blame others for your short comings.
are you for real?

dr wadd 10-05-2004 17:17
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
You call using STDs scaremongering? Have you seen the figures in the UK for teens who have contracted an STD?
There was a documentary on C4 a little while back about one of the Texan towns that promotes this sort of nonsense, it has one of the highest teen pregnancy and STD rates in the whole of America. As an example of STD control these methods do seem to have backfired somewhat spectacularly.

kronas 10-05-2004 17:19
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
Exactly, I think the STD issue is actually secondary to the emotional effects having sex too early can have on you.
yes but the individual should know when they are ready, if you are in a relationship you have to make sure that both sides are willing to engage in sexual contact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
I didn't have sex until I was married, but we did things before getting married that I regret and they affected our relationship for the worse not the better.
that is your experiance, in everyone there is an emotional one aswell as a psychological diffarence, it can cause the relationship to strengthen or weaken, but sex is just part of the relationship....

Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
"Trying before buying" is a sure fire way of showing someone that you will take what you can get without any of the responsibility.
Just think of people in WHSmiths who go in.. read the magazine, get what they want from it and put it back without paying for what they've enjoyed..
from what i have seen the reason people break up is because of relationships not working out, you have the physical attraction and then you have to seriously think about the relationship in the respect that both of you should have something in common.......im not going in to it too deep but i hope you understand.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by s1lv3r
People have the same attitude to sex these days.
yes there are some people are just looking to 'get laid' regularly'

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip.j.fry
I think the important thing is that teenagers are given the choice, that they have all of the options presented to them with the associated benefits and risks and how to best protect themselves from the risks, and that they don't have one ideal pushed onto them more than another.
this is exactly what i am trying to say, if an education network needs to be established we need to make sure pupils get the full facts, not whatever ones ideology tells them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip.j.fry
I'm with Kronas, education is the key, I don't think there's anything wrong with teenagers being sexually active, the dangers are that a lot seem to take too many risks (in the physical and emotional sense) and I'd like to see better sex ed. My own sex ed in school as far as I can remember it (about 10 years ago now) was pretty confused because no-one wants to deal with such a taboo subject.
yes you have the right idea, sex education is tame in this country those education establishments that choose to tackle the issue do not go far enough in teaching youngsters on what to do and what NOT to do.

parents are often concerned about what there child is being taught in school, this raises other issues aswell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip.j.fry
They might be advocating a good-level of protection against STD's, but then it's on about the same level as 'lock yourself away in a room and you won't get hit by a car'. From my point of view it's not dealing with the problem, it's instead trying to stop the problem existing.
exactly, its just creating a dictatorship, you cannot simply ignore the issue, no amount of education is going to stop people from having unprotected sex, its everyone's right (within the legal limit) to have sex should they want to, for recreational purposes aslong as precautions are taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
And that's what they're trying to do - educate teens about the risks of STD and promoting a pretty good level of protection against them.
no telling them to abstain as the report highlights is NOT education selling overtly expensive rings as well does not count as education

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
Pardon me for asking but how does someone get an STD if they abstain?
:dozey:

from intercourse when the couple is married and has kids.......

Damien 10-05-2004 17:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
I think it is dam well-known about the dangers of unprotected sex and some people chose not to believe it or not to care. AIDS and such are spectrally well-advertised. TV programs are always showing dangers and using protection is common place.

Shouting EDUCATION everytime is not effective. People do know the dangers and if they refuse to notice they will get punished,

Russ 10-05-2004 17:46
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
from intercourse when the couple is married and has kids.......
OK maybe I've just missed the punchline but how does that have anything to do with it?? :confused:

An STD is a SEXUALLY transmitted disease. As in being 'transmitted' through 'sex'.

Abstaining means 'not having sex'.

So how would you pass it on? Harsh language? Judo?

Soory, didn't mean to souns sarcastic but I just don't get it.

kronas 10-05-2004 17:49
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
OK maybe I've just missed the punchline but how does that have anything to do with it?? :confused:
to clear it up for you the whole debate is about abstaining until marriage, my point was there is still a chance of getting an STD when the couple have sex after marriage.

cleared that up for you ?

Shaun 10-05-2004 18:03
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
cleared that up for you ?
Was that pun intended? :erm: :angel: :D

Celibacy until marriage just doesn't work though does it, for several reason, depending on who you are. Education has to be the key and if people sill decide to ignore it (as many do) then there is no help for them. Just telling people not to do it just won't work, they will just carry on regardless. Sex is perfectly safe if you just take a few precautions.

As for STD/I's being passed on without sex, crabs can be passed on by sleeping in the same bed as someone who has them. :dozey:

kronas 10-05-2004 18:12
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
Was that pun intended? :erm: :angel: :D

no it was not, although you mentioning it made it that way :pp

i cant rep you, it says i need to spread it a bit :erm: :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
Celibacy until marriage just doesn't work though does it, for several reason, depending on who you are. Education has to be the key and if people sill decide to ignore it (as many do) then there is no help for them. Just telling people not to do it just won't work, they will just carry on regardless. Sex is perfectly safe if you just take a few precautions.
correct, many people will simply ignore the advice..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
As for STD/I's being passed on without sex, crabs can be passed on by sleeping in the same bed as someone who has them. :dozey:
:disturbd:

timewarrior2001 10-05-2004 18:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
this whole abstinence thing is a load of moralistic crap.

If the people in charge think for one moment it is going to make the slightest bit of difference when kids know by having a good shag, getting pregnant = free money and house. Nothing will change.

Abstinence is not the key, education may well be but abstinence will not be noted by any of them, why would they chose to go without sex AND have to fork out for a silver ring that means pretty much FA.
Any kids with such a ring will be taunted with calls of virgin etc.

Permanent irreversible sterilisation of the charvers, scrotes, ****, slags, whores and whatevfer else you chose to call them may help though.

ZrByte 10-05-2004 18:26
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
OK maybe I've just missed the punchline but how does that have anything to do with it?? :confused:

An STD is a SEXUALLY transmitted disease. As in being 'transmitted' through 'sex'.

Abstaining means 'not having sex'.

So how would you pass it on? Harsh language? Judo?

Soory, didn't mean to souns sarcastic but I just don't get it.
Cant thrush be caught by both parties through having sex even if niether party had it before starting??

homealone 10-05-2004 18:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
I agree with the comments made about the importance of education in helping teens come to terms with their emerging sexuality.

However, the same could be said about smoking, there is plenty of information available on why one shouldn't start, but people still do.

One reason for this, I believe is peer pressure and I think it also applies to sexual relations - the 'everyone else does it, why don't you? - try it, it's cool', situation.

The way I see it this scheme is an attempt to enable young people, who may be unsure, to peer with other like minded contemporaries & help them deal with relationships at a speed they feel comfortable with. It's as much a right to abstain as it is to indulge - & this could help them to make a more informed decision?

Having said that I don't think the symbolism of the ring will do any more than potentially expose them to ridicule?

<edit> I see TM2001 has already made that last point :)

kronas 10-05-2004 18:42
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
seen as we are on the subject of sex here is an interesting article:

a course designed by exeter university highlighting oral sex instead of intercourse has shown to actually reduce the amount of people engaging in actual sex, the course teaches pupils that intimacy and controlling 'urges' can be achieved through oral sex, it was noted there was a 20% reduction in pupils who would normally have had sex.

source: guardian.co.uk

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publi...212839,00.html

aliferste 10-05-2004 18:48
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
My mate caught crabs from a dodgy bed :)

Damien 10-05-2004 18:48
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone
I agree with the comments made about the importance of education in helping teens come to terms with their emerging sexuality.

However, the same could be said about smoking, there is plenty of information available on why one shouldn't start, but people still do.

One reason for this, I believe is peer pressure and I think it also applies to sexual relations - the 'everyone else does it, why don't you? - try it, it's cool', situation.

The way I see it this scheme is an attempt to enable young people, who may be unsure, to peer with other like minded contemporaries & help them deal with relationships at a speed they feel comfortable with. It's as much a right to abstain as it is to indulge - & this could help them to make a more informed decision?

Having said that I don't think the symbolism of the ring will do any more than potentially expose them to ridicule?

<edit> I see TM2001 has already made that last point :)
The ring thing is stupid its a symbol thats it.

But the peer pressure and the general attuide put forward by tv is the main cause of it

kronas 10-05-2004 18:52
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
But the peer pressure and the general attuide put forward by tv is the main cause of it
good point, tv is also a medium which 'flaunts' sex and flirtatious behavior.

peer pressure is of course dependant on how the individual will handle the situation, i have learned not to be pressured in to anything and make a decision for myself and myself only, but others 'go along with it' :shrug:

Damien 10-05-2004 18:54
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
OK maybe I've just missed the punchline but how does that have anything to do with it?? :confused:

An STD is a SEXUALLY transmitted disease. As in being 'transmitted' through 'sex'.

Abstaining means 'not having sex'.

So how would you pass it on? Harsh language? Judo?

Soory, didn't mean to souns sarcastic but I just don't get it.
How do you think they start in the first place? its not just passed on down generations

HIV - Dirty needles, blood transfusions
crabs - beds

also some of the rest can be contracted if you are very unhygienic although i am not sure what can be contracted i think its HPV and something else

Damien 10-05-2004 18:59
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
good point, tv is also a medium which 'flaunts' sex and flirtatious behavior.

peer pressure is of course dependant on how the individual will handle the situation, i have learned not to be pressured in to anything and make a decision for myself and myself only, but others 'go along with it' :shrug:
Yep, it depends how you deal with it. I have never given in but as a result found school hard. Now its not a problem (it also depends on who your mates are). Some people do go along as there have a need to be populer (which isnt a bad thing) some people however manage to do both when it suits them which is the best option

Also I dont understand your TV comment. its the same as mine? or where you agreeing with me?

Chris 10-05-2004 19:02
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZrByte
Cant thrush be caught by both parties through having sex even if niether party had it before starting??
Thrush is just a fungal infection like athlete's foot. You can get fungal infections between any folds of skin on your body and especially where it's warm and damp. Mothers breastfeeding babies can get it on their nipples and even the poor babies can get it in their mouths.

So, although it can be transmitted sexually, I don't think it is accurate to class it as a 'STD' in the same way that HIV/herpes is.

kronas 10-05-2004 19:03
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Yep, it depends how you deal with it. I have never given in but as a result found school hard. Now its not a problem (it also depends on who your mates are). Some people do go along as there have a need to be populer (which isnt a bad thing) some people however manage to do both when it suits them which is the best option
i suppose i never had a vested interest in being popular, stay away from the idiots is all i cared about (still do) :D

you have to be an individual as you grow, if you cant think/do things for yourself later on you do become insufficent in what you are capable of doing.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Also I dont understand your TV comment. its the same as mine? or where you agreeing with me?
i made my comment + agreed with yours, i believe there is too much sex and flirting on tv, i mean its even coming in to daytime tv (not that i watch daytime tv but have seen such scenes)

Damien 10-05-2004 19:18
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
on the other hand sex is much more fun with two people dispite the risk :naughty: ;)





what...? :confused:

Maggy 10-05-2004 19:45
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Incog enters thread,reads very carefully and decides to back out of thread for the moment. :(

Damien 10-05-2004 19:51
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
what we done now?
:(

Maggy 10-05-2004 19:52
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
I just want to think about it-it's a very contentious issue.:(

Damien 10-05-2004 20:12
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
oh ok. Good for you :)

ZrByte 10-05-2004 20:20
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
Thrush is just a fungal infection like athlete's foot. You can get fungal infections between any folds of skin on your body and especially where it's warm and damp. Mothers breastfeeding babies can get it on their nipples and even the poor babies can get it in their mouths.

So, although it can be transmitted sexually, I don't think it is accurate to class it as a 'STD' in the same way that HIV/herpes is.
Thats a very good point. Though I dont think it made my point any less valid that these things can still be caught even if you abstain.
Also if you abstain and your partner mereley claims he/she has also abstained and it just so happens you catch something off them on your wedding night you wouldnt be best pleased.

downquark1 10-05-2004 20:29
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by towny
Mothers breastfeeding babies can get it on their nipples and even the poor babies can get it in their mouths.
And we don't recomend a ban on breast feeding, do we?

Well, I made myself clear in the other thread, so I just say I expect (and hope) that they won't be as successful as in America.

Incog stop spamming

Maggy 10-05-2004 20:31
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
And we don't recomend a ban on breast feeding, do we?

Well, I made myself clear in the other thread, so I just say I expect (and hope) that they won't be as successful as in America.

Incog stop spamming
It's called bookmarking downquark. :pp

downquark1 10-05-2004 20:32
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas
It's called bookmarking downquark. :pp
Use the thread tools menu ;)

Maggy 10-05-2004 20:58
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
I'd rather use the emails notification tool thank you.:)

Tezcatlipoca 10-05-2004 21:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
*ahem*

Can we get back on topic please? :)

Maggy 10-05-2004 21:24
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
sorry!

homealone 10-05-2004 21:28
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronas
you have to be an individual as you grow, if you cant think/do things for yourself later on you do become insufficent in what you are capable of doing.....
that is true :)

- the hard bit is being an individual who can, not only, have that unique view, but also 'join in' ?

- the balance between the two is key to achievement - imo

- I'm also more than aware that there is an element of 'competition' as to when one has one's 'first time' - believe it or not I still remember :blush: - no short term memory loss here;)

- but seriously the rates of std's & unwanted pregnancies suggest 'any strategy in a storm' - scrap the rings, though :erm:

Jerrek 10-05-2004 21:36
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellwear
But you have sex J, bit hypocritical criticizing him for lacking "total discipline and control over bodily urges"!!! :erm:
I didn't have sex in my teens out of my own free will. I waited. But that isn't really the point. We're talking about teaching people to abstain because of rampant spreading of STDs. It IS a practical solution because there are many that DO follow it. I'm not saying you SHOULD or you SHOULD NOT. I'm taking issue with his blatant lie that it is impossible for any one person to control himself or herself.

It really amuses me how people can shout that controlling yourself is not a solution. How many virgins do you see with AIDS [percentage of all AIDS cases]? How many virgins do you see with crabs? Gonorrhea? Herpes? Syphilis?

Womble 10-05-2004 21:55
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
This thread makes me laugh, do you realy think teenagers, with raging hormones and full of Vodka and Redbull are going to give a stuff about what some old hasbeen has to say about sex?? Get real!

Education may help if its presented in the right way, which from reading this thread and passed experiance it won't. Sex education has always been pretty poor, its always been too "preachy". Someone standing up-front going on and on about STDS and pregnancy. The teenagers sit there thinking they know it all, and who are you to tell them what to do. The Sisters at my friends Catholic school showed the girls a video called "the evil penis", it was very graffic, did it stop them shagging?? did it hell!
Bloody hell, if someone had stood in front of me and said abstain, its the only way I would have p***ed my self laughing.
There needs to be a new appproach, don't know what, maybe just maybe someone should ask the teenagers!! (shock horror)

Damien 10-05-2004 21:56
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
for the love of....

you cannot abstain for life ok? you cannot wait until your married because if she/he loves you he would have told you because they might not know. Short of asking everyone to having a medical check-over before you have sex what can ya do?

Just wait until you are ready and use protection it really is that simple kids

homealone 10-05-2004 22:06
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble
This thread makes me laugh, do you realy think teenagers, with raging hormones and full of Vodka and Redbull are going to give a stuff about what some old hasbeen has to say about sex?? Get real!

Education may help if its presented in the right way, which from reading this thread and passed experiance it won't. Sex education has always been pretty poor, its always been too "preachy". Someone standing up-front going on and on about STDS and pregnancy. The teenagers sit there thinking they know it all, and who are you to tell them what to do. The Sisters at my friends Catholic school showed the girls a video called "the evil penis", it was very graffic, did it stop them shagging?? did it hell!
Bloody hell, if someone had stood in front of me and said abstain, its the only way I would have p***ed my self laughing.
There needs to be a new appproach, don't know what, maybe just maybe someone should ask the teenagers!! (shock horror)
we had 'cannabis the evil weed' in my day, you're not wrong, but time has told that cannabis has its long term problems, even if in the short term it may be harmless?

chlamydia can make women infertile - that is a long term effect on our population - short term it can be treated, if detected????

downquark1 10-05-2004 22:08
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
It really amuses me how people can shout that controlling yourself is not a solution. How many virgins do you see with AIDS [percentage of all AIDS cases]? How many virgins do you see with crabs? Gonorrhea? Herpes? Syphilis?
How many Amish do you see electricuted?

Graham 10-05-2004 22:23
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
For those asking "how can you get a Sexually Transmitted Disease without having sex", I suggest they read this article: http://www.ivillagehealth.com/expert...a=adid=7949056 (you have to skip the annoying ad :( )

The point is that "sexually" transmitted is a mis-nomer. Herpes can be contracted through kissing or touching, diseases like HIV and Hepatitis can be passed on through infected blood or blood products, so to suggest that, by abstinence from penetratitve , you can avoid these diseases is, at best, wrong, and, at worst, dangerously misleading.

This article http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...166168,00.html gives more information "American teenagers who take the pledge to remain virgins until they marry have almost the same rate of sexually transmitted disease as other young people, a new study of adolescent behaviour says."

IMO the *only* way to prevent transmission of these diseases is by given children the *full* facts, not a one-sided "abstinence is the only way" moralistic crusade.

homealone 10-05-2004 22:24
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
How many Amish do you see electricuted?
that could be one for the 'did you know' thread ;)

- but not this one ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Just wait until you are ready and use protection it really is that simple kids
summed it up very well, I thought :)

Womble 10-05-2004 22:26
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
for the love of....

Short of asking everyone to having a medical check-over before you have sex what can ya do?
Maybe thats the answer, A less formal way of having a check up, make it more accessible. I speak from experiance when I say the clap clinic is NOT a nice place, I was 22, it must be murder for a 15 yr old. There has to be less of a stigma attached to having "galloping knob rot", that way it can be brought out from the shadows and treated.

When's the god squad and the hollyer than thou crew gonna learn...preaching don't work!!

Graham 10-05-2004 22:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble
I speak from experiance when I say the clap clinic is NOT a nice place, I was 22, it must be murder for a 15 yr old. There has to be less of a stigma attached to having "galloping knob rot", that way it can be brought out from the shadows and treated.
Erm, I don't know when you were 22, but when I visited the local hospital's GU medicine clinic with a friend (she was getting the "deepo" contraceptive shot, before you ask, you smutty beggars! :) ) it was a very un-intimidating place and I'm sure that they treat all their patients with respect and dignity.

Damien 10-05-2004 22:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
you mean like 'Sex license' with a MOT every so often?

homealone 10-05-2004 22:35
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
For those asking "how can you get a Sexually Transmitted Disease without having sex", I suggest they read this article: http://www.ivillagehealth.com/expert...a=adid=7949056 (you have to skip the annoying ad :( )

The point is that "sexually" transmitted is a mis-nomer. Herpes can be contracted through kissing or touching, diseases like HIV and Hepatitis can be passed on through infected blood or blood products, so to suggest that, by abstinence from penetratitve , you can avoid these diseases is, at best, wrong, and, at worst, dangerously misleading.

This article http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...166168,00.html gives more information "American teenagers who take the pledge to remain virgins until they marry have almost the same rate of sexually transmitted disease as other young people, a new study of adolescent behaviour says."

IMO the *only* way to prevent transmission of these diseases is by given children the *full* facts, not a one-sided "abstinence is the only way" moralistic crusade.
that last article was very scary, Graham

Quote:
Church-based abstinence programmes are openly hostile to condoms and preach that they do not guard against disease.
that is not the right message, imo? :erm:

Shaun 10-05-2004 22:40
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Erm, I don't know when you were 22, but when I visited the local hospital's GU medicine clinic with a friend (she was getting the "deepo" contraceptive shot, before you ask, you smutty beggars! :) ) it was a very un-intimidating place and I'm sure that they treat all their patients with respect and dignity.

I've admitted in another thread that I've had a sexual health checkup, and to be honest it really wasn't anything to write home about. I think it should be compulsory for everyone when they reach 18, jut so they can see what its like.

Graham 10-05-2004 22:49
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homealone
Quote:
Church-based abstinence programmes are openly hostile to condoms and preach that they do not guard against disease.
that is not the right message, imo? :erm:
I agree entirely, but that's been discussed before in the recent past, so I won't do it again here.

Flubflow 10-05-2004 23:30
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
No. It is impractical for YOU. Not for everyone, for YOU, and others that lack total discipline and control over bodily urges. Not everyone has such a complete lack of control and discipline. Don't blame others for your short comings.
You don't even know me, you insulting bag of wind.

Paul 10-05-2004 23:57
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flubflow
You don't even know me <snip>
:nono:

Let's not have personal insults please.

Xaccers 11-05-2004 00:34
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Unfortunately, studies on these abstainence schemes have proven that the majority of kids on it are shagging within 2 years and are much MORE likely to not use condoms

danielf 11-05-2004 00:39
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Unfortunately, studies on these abstainence schemes have proven that the majority of kids on it are shagging within 2 years and are much MORE likely to not use condoms
I'm not surprised at all, but a link would be nice? :angel:

Xaccers 11-05-2004 00:51
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
I'm not surprised at all, but a link would be nice? :angel:
On ipaq so can't find you one, was also mentioned on the Today program this morning.
The guy promoting this latest scheme said they failed because didn't use "rings".
Obviously he's got his finger on the pulse of today's youth :rolleyes:

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 00:52
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Unfortunately, studies on these abstainence schemes have proven that the majority of kids on it are shagging within 2 years and are much MORE likely to not use condoms

I can understand that. Rather than being taught about safe sex (as teaching the use of condoms would "encourage sexual activity" :rolleyes: ), they're taught not to have sex full stop.....so when they do eventually "give in" & have sex, they know less about it than kids who have not been on these programmes.

Doesn't help that a lot of these abstinence programmes actually slam condom use, & spread propaganda that they are useless against protecting against STDs & pregnancy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
I'm not surprised at all, but a link would be nice? :angel:
Graham posted a link to a story about a US study, on the previous page of this thread.

Here's the story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...166168,00.html

EDIT:

The whole thing is definitely worth reading, but here's a snippet:

Quote:
US study of teenage sexual disease destroys basis of virginity crusade

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Wednesday March 10, 2004
The Guardian

American teenagers who take the pledge to remain virgins until they marry have almost the same rate of sexually transmitted disease as other young people, a new study of adolescent behaviour says.
The finding destroys a key rationale for the abstinence crusade - that it prevents disease - and poses a strong challenge to a social engineering project that has been embraced by the White House.

The eight-year study of 12,000 young people by two American sociologists found that the graduates of abstinence programmes were nearly as likely as other young people to catch sexually transmitted infections such as gonorrhoea or chlamydia.

Other findings, yet to be published, also suggest that abstinence programmes do not prevent early pregnancy, Hannah Bruckner, a sociologist at Yale University and co-author of the study, said.

(big snip)

Church-based abstinence programmes are openly hostile to condoms and preach that they do not guard against disease.

(snip)
EDIT: Same study, BBC News story - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3546007.stm

Xaccers 11-05-2004 01:00
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Hasn't the Catholic church in Africa been found telling people condoms actually help spread AIDS?

kronas 11-05-2004 01:02
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
i think a small minority who are easily brainwashed do stick to the pledge, i call it brainwashing because it essentially is due to the fact showing a completely one sided story and people being sucked in to the stigma of the topic some people do tend to focus on the positive aspects..............

but for the majorty its 'business as usual' it wont do a damn thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Hasn't the Catholic church in Africa been found telling people condoms actually help spread AIDS?

i know certain church leaders are advocating against the use of condoms :erm:

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:05
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Hasn't the Catholic church in Africa been found telling people condoms actually help spread AIDS?
Yeah, I'm sure I've read about that somewhere...


EDIT:

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y900984227.asp

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Irish Examiner
Church condom claims condemned

By Jim Caldwel
THE Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus. The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC on Sunday. It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The World Health Organisation condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk. The claims come just a day after a report revealed that a young person is now infected with HIV every 14 seconds.

Half of all new infections are now in people under the age of 25 and most of these are young women living in the developing world.

Health experts around the world urge people to use condoms to protect themselves from HIV and a host of sexually transmitted infections.

However, the Catholic Church has consistently refused to back such calls. The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead.

But according to Panorama, the Church is now telling people that condoms do not work.

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could pass through condoms.

"The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he said.

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests governments should urge people not to use condoms.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The Panorama programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through". Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panorama condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"AIDS ... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

(SNIP)
Another story about the Panorama prog here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm

A more sensible opinion from the Church of Uganda though: "UGANDA: Teen condom use backed by church"


Although this is taking things :notopic: .... (although still related in a way)

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:14
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
So how would you pass it on? Harsh language? Judo?
That made me laugh .. a lot.

Anyway, I fail to see why teenagers showing some responsibility and abstaining from sex before marriage could possibly be a bad thing, it's their choice afterall, no-one is forcing them into anything. I also believe scaring people into abstinence is also a very good thing, given the choice between conversing with Harry Palm and a nice festering bunch of b-cell lymphoma's ... what would you choose?

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:15
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
i know certain church leaders are advocating against the use of condoms :erm:
And the same heads of the church probably don't advocate sex before marriage.

danielf 11-05-2004 01:16
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
Hasn't the Catholic church in Africa been found telling people condoms actually help spread AIDS?
I think there was an African bishop who said (last year) something along the lines off: you can still get pregnant when using a condom. I.e. if a condom can't prevent a sperm cell getting through, then how is it going to stop the AIDS virus which is even smaller than a sperm cell. The suggestion was that if an intact condom has holes large enough to let a sperm cell through, then surely something as small as a virus would get through. My feeling was that the bishop could do with a couple of science lessons...

This is from memory though, and I know I should provide a link, as per my earlier post. However, it is getting late, and I'm off to bed. :nighty:

Edit: I see tetpoclaizitl has found it. Pardon me, but do you really expect people to get your name right :confused: :)

kronas 11-05-2004 01:16
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
That made me laugh .. a lot.

Anyway, I fail to see why teenagers showing some responsibility and abstaining from sex before marriage could possibly be a bad thing, it's their choice afterall, no-one is forcing them into anything. I also believe scaring people into abstinence is also a very good thing, given the choice between conversing with Harry Palm and a nice festering bunch of b-cell lymphoma's ... what would you choose?


i would choose hearing both sides of the story instead of being told, 'this is the way' this is right for you' this what you should do' and make a decision then.....

Xaccers 11-05-2004 01:21
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
That made me laugh .. a lot.

Anyway, I fail to see why teenagers showing some responsibility and abstaining from sex before marriage could possibly be a bad thing, it's their choice afterall, no-one is forcing them into anything. I also believe scaring people into abstinence is also a very good thing, given the choice between conversing with Harry Palm and a nice festering bunch of b-cell lymphoma's ... what would you choose?
If it worked it would be great, but it has been PROVEN that what you get is a bunch of kids who eventually have sex but have no idea how to do it safer, spreading more disease

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:21
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
i would choose hearing both sides of the story instead of being told, 'this is the way' this is right for you' this what you should do' and make a decision then.....
You know both sides of the story, unless you're very naive sexually.

A) You have sex, you wear protection, you still run the risk of contracting a terminal sexually transmitted disease, you also run the risk if you're promiscious of spreading it around.

or

B) You don't have sex, you don't contract a sexually transmitted disease.

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Edit: I see tetpoclaizitl has found it. Pardon me, but do you really expect people to get your name right :confused: :)
:notopic: "tetpoclaizitl"? LOL, that's the best mis-spelling yet ;)

"Tez" will do ;) :)

Back on track.........

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
If it worked it would be great, but it has been PROVEN that what you get is a bunch of kids who eventually have sex but have no idea how to do it safer, spreading more disease
Proven where?

danielf 11-05-2004 01:22
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
I also believe scaring people into abstinence is also a very good thing, given the choice between conversing with Harry Palm and a nice festering bunch of b-cell lymphoma's ... what would you choose?
Just to make sure: You think scaring people is a good educational strategy?

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:25
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Just to make sure: You think scaring people is a good educational strategy?
What do you tell a child who's reaching for a boiling kettle? "Don't touch that, you'll burn yourself!"

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:26
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
You know both sides of the story, unless you're very naive sexually.

A) You have sex, you wear protection, you still run the risk of contracting a terminal sexually transmitted disease, you also run the risk if you're promiscious of spreading it around.

or

B) You don't have sex, you don't contract a sexually transmitted disease.
I think the problem (well, one of the problems) is that a lot of teens *do* seem to be very naive sexually. The UK has a stupidly high teen pregnancy rate.

And that all surely comes down to sex education. Education from their parents. Education at school. Education that sadly seems to be lacking.

Kids need to be properly taught about sex, & contraception, & so on. And they need to be taught the *consequences* of having unprotected sex.

Just telling them not to have sex surely won't prepare them at all, as, studies have shown, they'll just end up doing it anyway, & will know even less about it if they've been on abstinence programmes.

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:27
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
Proven where?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...166168,00.html


Not "proven", but still not exactly a glowing recommendation for abstinence programmes

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:29
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielf
Just to make sure: You think scaring people is a good educational strategy?
Wasn't aimed at me, & Bifta made an opposite point, but....

I think scaring them into always using condoms (& preferably not sleeping around) would be a good idea. They need to know the consequences of un-safe sex.

Xaccers 11-05-2004 01:32
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...166168,00.html


Not "proven", but still not exactly a glowing recommendation for abstinence programmes
When every single study shows it doesn't work, that's considered proof :)

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:32
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
I think the problem (well, one of the problems) is that a lot of teens *do* seem to be very naive sexually. The UK has a stupidly high teen pregnancy rate.

And that all surely comes down to sex education. Education from their parents. Education at school. Education that sadly seems to be lacking.

Kids need to be properly taught about sex, & contraception, & so on. And they need to be taught the *consequences* of having unprotected sex.

Just telling them not to have sex surely won't prepare them at all, as, studies have shown, they'll just end up doing it anyway, & will know even less about it if they've been on abstinence programmes.
The two Canadians I know that have chosen to abstain are fully aware of the possible consequences of sexual intercourse, sex education was taught at my school (16 years ago, so presumably it still is?) highlighting in graphic detail what you could contract and exactly what it will do to you, and believe me no-one wants to contract one or a multitude of the ailments people get in the advanced stages of AIDS.

I think the quote from the article originally quoted sums it up perfectly:

Quote:
Abstinence is the only way truly to protect yourself against getting a sexually transmitted disease
I don't think anyone can argue with that.

Bifta 11-05-2004 01:34
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaccers
When every single study shows it doesn't work, that's considered proof :)
Well, it's only as good as the people participating, if someone who claims to have abstained from sex is actually having sex then they're not really abstaining so it'd be a bit pointless saying abstinence doesn't work.

danielf 11-05-2004 01:35
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
What do you tell a child who's reaching for a boiling kettle? "Don't touch that, you'll burn yourself!"
good point. However, does the same apply when you know the kid will get to the kettle sooner (rather) than later? I say tell the kid about temperature and scalding etc. Hopefully, the kid will appproach the kettle sensibly.

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2004 01:38
Re: UK teen celibacy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
Proven where?
Another story...this time Texas....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

Quote:
Texas Teaches Abstinence, With Mixed Grades

By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 21, 2003

"You have been lied to, lied to by the media, lied to by celebrities," Ed Ainsworth told the 120 squirming eighth-graders at Smylie Wilson Junior High School. "Will this condom protect your heart?" he asked, flashing a glossy Trojan ad on a giant screen. "Will this condom protect your reputation? Go ahead and use a condom. You'll still be known as a slut."

This is sex education, Texas-style, where the only safe sex taught since 1995 is no sex outside marriage. That is when George W. Bush, who was then governor, signed a law making Texas the third state requiring schools to follow an abstinence-only sex education curriculum.

(snip)

In the seven years since their schools began teaching abstinence-only, young people here have been anything but abstinent. Teen pregnancy rates in the state remain above the national average, and Lubbock County consistently has one of the highest rates in the state. In addition, the number of Texas youths with sexually transmitted diseases has risen steadily.

At the same time, many parents lack the time or expertise to provide adequate guidance. Teachers complain that even if the law did not limit what they could teach, the school day already is packed. And young people are living in a culture that features both regular church attendance and provocative music videos.

Now, a small group of students is revolting against the abstinence-only curriculum.

"The current policies are obviously ineffective," said Corey Nichols, 17, who, as mayor of the Lubbock Youth Commission, is leading a push for a more comprehensive program. "I think abstinence is wonderful; as a commission we back abstinence. But when you look at the numbers, you see the abstinence curriculum fails."

(snip)

Since the abstinence-only curriculum began in 1995, teen pregnancy rates have fallen in Texas generally -- and Lubbock County specifically -- but not as dramatically as for the nation as a whole. Meanwhile, rates of sexually transmitted diseases have soared.

(snip)

Over the last decade, as rates for gonorrhea and chlamydia have fallen nationally, Lubbock County has confronted an epidemic

(snip)

What has persisted, Lubbock residents say, is a culture of teen sexual activity.

"We've got a lot of kids for whom the norm is to be a high school dropout and pregnant well before she is 18," said Eric Benson, who coordinates HIV programs in the Lubbock area for the Texas Department of Health. "We have instances where a girl has her first child at 15, becomes a grandmother by the time she is 30 and a great-grandmother at age 45."

(snip)

Many teenagers said that with the limits on teaching, and with parents who are uncomfortable discussing sex in detail, they learn much of what they know from experience. Some young women here, under the mistaken belief that they can get pregnant through oral sex, refer to their children as "spit babies."

"I learned the hard way," said Jennifer Villarreal, 19, who gave birth two years ago. "You can continue to talk about abstinence, but kids are curious and they will experiment."

Even teenagers who have taken a virginity pledge see a community in which sexual activity -- often risky, promiscuous behavior -- is a routine part of growing up.

(big snip)


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