What's next, cattleprods?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/3682653.stm

And no Coggy, I was joking with the title.....

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

A friend spent 12 months working for the Anglican church in Uganda, which included a fair amount of school teaching. I've seen a home video that was taken when his brother visited him - it shows him taking a school assembly while the teachers patrolled with sticks which they used to prod (or lightly whack) kids that stepped out of line.

Not so different from cattle prods, and amazingly the discipline and obedience of the kids in that assembly was second to none.

Just an observation, you understand. :)

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Cant see the problem with it myself. The child was not injured and I bet he wont talk in class anymore. More dicipline is exactly what is needed these days as kids can literaly get away with murder and they know that the teachears cant do a thing about it.

EDIT : In this case ( the fact that the child was speciel needs ) I find a little disturbing that this was done !

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Special Needs or not, I see a BIG problem with it. If any adult, be they a police officer, teacher or whatever, so much as lays a finger on my daughter, they'll be in court faster than they can say "We need more holidays".

Discipline is down to the PARENTS and no-one else.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Fair enough. When I was at school any corporal punishment had to be aproved by the parents anyway. I can see your point - I would feel the same way.

When I say discipline I am talking it in genaral terms, not neceserily about physical punishment.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

When you send your child to school, you devolve a certain amount of your authority to the school in order to enable it to look after him (or her). That authority allows the school to act in the interests of the child, both in terms of their education and safety, and the education and safety of other children.

Parents who start banging the drum for their children's 'rights' and threatening court action just help to make the discipline problem in our schools worse. The kids now know that the teachers can't lay a finger on them. Without fear and respect for authority, authority crumbles. Clearly there needs to be a line drawn between what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable measures when a school is disciplining a child, but I certainly don't agree that discipline is the exclusive preserve of parents.

When parents devolve their responsibility to educate their children to a school, they must accept that they devolve powers to discipline as well, or else the whole system breaks down.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

I can see the logic behind the idea, put a small strip of tape on the boys lips to remind him each time that he needs no to listen and not speak. The logic is fine, but the practicality's of it aren't, you just can't do that to a child, special needs or not, all the teacher would have needed to do would be ask the child to place his finger on his lips. Our teachers used to make us to it when we were talking and not listening and it worked. Another practice is for the teacher to place their hand in the air when they want the children to be quiet and ask the children to do it too. It's surprisingly effective.

As for Discipline being a parents job, thats fine Russ, but it doesn't always work like that, does it. Have you ever visited an inner city school?

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

But there are other ways to enforce discipline which don't envolve physical punishment. I'm all for teacher's rights and protection but as a parent I take my responsibilites very seriously. Taking away privileges, detention etc are all options.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

As long as you are willing to discipline your daughter. The problem is when the child knows that the teachers disciplinary options are limited and that when they get home no punishment will be waiting.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

I won't have a problem with that. It won't be easy or pleasant but I consider myself to have strong family values - and discipline starts at home.

100% in agreement with you there.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

The trouble is Russ that you are probobly in the minority on that one. There are sadly to many parents that just budle the kids of the school and wash there hands of any problems. You find that these types of parents dont care about the child's behavier when he/she is at school but should they get a little scratch on thier nee they will be first to go up there and have a go at the staff.

Kudos to you Russ for bringing up your kids in a responsible way :tu:

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Hold up, she's only 9 months old :D

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

This is true, but these are all disciplines that the school would perform. You seemed to be suggesting that schools should have no disciplinary powers at all.

Personally I'm all for corporal punishment, but as others have said it ought to be done with the involvement of the parents. (Although I think while parents should be informed and given the chance to attend, their agreement should not be required). Sometimes the parents are as much the problem as the unruly kids themselves and they need to understand that authority must be respected for the benefit of all.

Russ, for what it's worth I think in your case it's less likely your daughter is going to get into the kind of trouble that might once have attracted a caning, as she clearly is going to know that whatever the school does to her will be a picnic compared to the (lovingly expressed) fury of her daddy ;)

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Cattle prods ? ... hmm. Might work.

If your a parant that believes in disapline then chances are your child would never be prodded with one as they would be unlikely to assualt the teacher or thier classmates.

It's the children that are feral that are the problem. I can't see intellectual reasoning having any impact on those. I had one of these *******s in my class when I was 14. A cattle prod would have come in very handy.

And get the parants in so they can be shocked too.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Nice to see his Mother was so concerned about the punishment rather than the actual cause (his mis-behaviour). :erm:

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

They hardly have any now, which is why IMO and together with some poor parenting that we have this 'yob' culture that roams the streets with little regard for anyone or their property.

In this case where a piece of tape was applied to a boy of 11's mouth who has special needs, personally I do not think the teacher should of done it. But its all too often, like in this case, the parents go into over sensitive mode and their child can do no wrong or their child is a sweet little angel. :rolleyes:

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

well he was only talking, so the report says so its not a big issue really, it seems the teacher over reacted if the child was merely talking, i agree that parents need to be held responsible for thier childs behavior, because the way your attitude is moulded outside the classroom is affective when your in the classroom, you adhere to discipline from parents you are most likely going to do the same in the classroom.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

What Intreats me about this is the use of these words 'special needs'?

It is used to make it seem worse but I dont understand what WERE his special needs. People who have that should not be treated as a different case. They should be treated equally but that should also go the other way as well.

In other words if someone has problems with handwriting then that should be helped but they shouldn't be immune to the same punishments as people who dont have special needs. Again it depends what the needs are but if its something that is unrelated to the punishment then whats the 'well he did have special needs' fuss about?

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Perhaps his 'special needs' situation was that he was hyperactive? He should not be treated differently unless what he did was directly related to his 'condition'.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

thats the thing we dont know if it is, if its behavioural related then some leeway has to be given for the child.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Yes if it was a behavior problem. but not something small such as writing or reading.

I think it was wrong either way but only because of his age and the teachers position but i dont think it should have gone to court. Neither do i think the needs come into it

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

all these bad kids should be put in their own school where they can merrily beat the seven shades out of each other and leave the kids who want to learn to study in peace.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

yep i agree with that :D

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

So what if, say, he had Tourette's Syndrome and he was making nervous tics in class? That could be seen as disruptive. Should he punished for that?

I don't think the parents of 'all these bad kids' would be happy at the idea of their children not being given full opportunities to learn.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

as parents dont seem to care or have the time to learn about what there child is doing........i dont think that chould be taken in to consideration, you have to admit that to children who want to learn should be given a fairer opportunity then being stuck in a class with a number of disruptive pupils ?

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

then these parents should instill proper discipline.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Don't get confused between anti-social behaviour and special needs. If the child is behaving in a way due to some brain dysfunction, fine. But if the child is acting up because of it's background then no amount of 'special attention' will be affective.

secondly, slaveing a schools limited resources to the special needs children would lower the educational process for the rest of the children. Not wise.

Special needs should be seperated from the rest of the school in a special unit ... which should be at a particualar school. Unless you want to end up paying 70% tax of coarse.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

That is not dealing with the problem head on, infact that would not help at all, because society cannot afford to have bad behaved children in such a school for just bad behaviour, I know I would not send my child to such a school with set low standards.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

it would be some sort of correctional facility though would you accept that ?

normal education but having more support there ?

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

"Special Needs" is pretty wide ranging term these days - it can (and is) applied to absolutely anything out of the ordinary- it does not (as many seem to believe) mean they are mentally/physically disabled or badly behaved etc etc ....

My daughter is classed as special needs - but if you saw her at school you would never guess why as she would seem exactly the same as every other kid.

(she is diabetic).

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

so anti-social behaviour is dignified with the term 'special needs' ?

no wonder it's on the increase.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

it depends on what you class as anti social in retrospect towards either being disruptive for the sake of being disruptive or having an actual 'problem'

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

i guess anti-social behaviour could be classified by intent to cause distraction, not by the act itself as some children who do have mental problems won't be able to understand what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't.

But if the child is being disruptive the disrupter should be removed from the environment regardless of intent. Intent is incredibly hard to ascertain, so the school probably shouldn't even try considering how resource intensive it would be.

I think that when anti-social behaviour no longer causes disgust it will simply be used to get attention, screwing the whole classroom in the process. Kids love attention you know, they'll do anything they can get away with to get it.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

As a parent I have no qualms about anyone smacking my child at school IF they misbehave.I'm not a parent who wanted to do away with physical punishment in the first place.

I do understand your concerns though Russ BUT I 'd like to point out that in some circumstances you might like a teacher to touch your child,such as if she is hurt,frightened or in danger of being hurt or damaged.At one point teachers were recommended not to step in during fights and not to restrain the combatants because it might be miscontrued as abuse.I'm not even allowed to physically prevent a child from leaving a classroom EVEN though I'm legally responsible if that child leaves the school and has an accident.

Incog.

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

I'm sorry but many children with learning difficulties are finding themselves in 'normal' schooling because the government has deemed they should become fully intergrated with 'normal' educational establishments.Segregation is becoming a thing of the past with certain educational disadvantages.Now I can understand this when it comes to physical disabilty children but when Downs Syndrome children are placed in mainstream schools(and it's happened in my regular school)I think that it is a strain on a system already stretched beyond what is reasonable. :(

However to get back on topic,discipline has to be a matter arranged and agreed between parents and school.Mind the next time I want to keep a child for the 10 minutes allowed at the end of the school day and I'm told that "I've got to pick up my little brother/sister/cousin/whatever from school so I can't stay after school", I shall go demented.

Let the little sw*nes behave in that case then IF they want to leave on time.Better still let mum/dad/aunty pick up their own younger child from school instead of lumping it on to an older sibling. :mad:

Incog. :)

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

Can I just clear up my point.

I was saying that the Special needs students should only be treated differently depending on there situation and thats it! If this kid had a behaviour problem relating to a mental problem then fine but if hes got a problem with something small then magnifying the problem because he has special needs is stupid. The fact that the news item simply says special needs suggest that it wasn't a behavior problem otherwise they would have mentioned it. it just seems to be put in to make the act look worse sort of like playing the race card.

You cannot go round treating people differently to others because they have one thing, such as handwriting. Equal treatment applies both ways they should by all means have help with that problem but why treat them differently when it comes to punishment ? I had 'special needs' and there was nothing wrong with me expect I like really badly

Re: What's next, cattleprods?
 

I'd just like to say.....


If it had been my son, once he was not grounded for misbehaving at school, and once he had finnished all his homework. I'd then say to him

"and whats the moral of this story son?"

And if he can tell me, its a lesson learnt and the teacher has done a good job.

What I think the parent is so outraged at is the fact that without court she faces little chance of reaping any kind of financial benefit from the situation.


The bottom line, no one was hurt and the kid shouldnt have been talking and distracting others during a lesson.