Future of TV?
 

Not really sure which category this post should go in, so mods, please feel free to read and move accordingly!

Here's an interesting story....

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds14311.html

It talks of the BBC spearheading the 'possible' future of HDTV in the UK, but also about the digital switchover, due by 2010.

OK...so a couple of points arise from this:

How would ntl deliver this kind of service? It's clear that right now the present boxes (and maybe even infrastructure) would not be able to deliver HDTV signals to your TV. I guess the next obvious question is...who would pay for it? The government, NTL, the BBC or the customer?

How does it work in places like Japan and the US, where they already have such a service - are viewers paying even more for HDTV versions of their channels/programmes?

Would broadband be the way to deliver this? (I would guess broad-er band than available right now)

The next issue for me is why the BBC announce this now, why they are linking it to switchovers (then saying people that would take HDTV would not contribute to the switchover, becuase they would be likely to have switched over already), but mostly - why are they not combining the two projects?

By that I mean that realistically we should have an HDTV offer available now, so that take up is strong come 2010 should we not?

Discuss?

Re: Future of TV?
 

I understood that HDTV and Digital were not rolled out together in this country because of the large costs involved.

A further consideration might be that the Government wants to switch off analogue TV broadcasts so it can make a fortune selling licences to broadcast other signals on those frequencies. If it is to switch off analogue TV, everyone must move to digital. The best way of moving everyone to digital is to allow the majority of people to continue receiving their TV signals through an aerial, just the way they always have. Yet HDTV cannot effectively be delivered in this way, according to the article you linked to.

So, you give everyone the choice of either digital HDTV by cable/satellite or nothing at all, or, you allow people to choose standard-definition digital TV from cable/satellite/aerial. The majority of people in this country will never subscribe to pay-TV services, so the latter is the only viable option, in the absence of a Free-Sat service (which, co-incidentally, the BBC has also started talking about today, according to this morning's Telegraph).

In the future, the BBC clearly hopes data compression technology will improve to the extent that HDTV through a rooftop aerial will become a viable proposition. If it does, the BBC appears to be signalling that it might take the lead in the roll-out, in much the same way as the 'digital revolution' of standard-definition has only gained real momentum since they stepped in to salvage Freeview from the wreckage of on/ITV Digital.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Can i ask something? I'm not very clued up with all this, but what does High Definition TV actually do? Is it just better quality, which i thought DTV was meant to giv anyway

Re: Future of TV?
 

Digital TV just allows you to deliver your standard 625 lines of picture information in a different way, that is less prone to interference.

High-Definition TV improves the resolution of the picture you watch, so instead of being made up of 625 lines of picture information, it is made of rather more - somewhere over 1,000, IIRC.

The lines of information that make up your picture are drawn horizontally, so it doesn't matter whether you have an old 4:3 or a new 16:9 (widescreen) aspect ratio TV, the picture is only 625 lines.

Re: Future of TV?
 

576 lines actually ;) The other lines are known as the vertical blanking interval (VBI) and are not sent. Your STB re-generates the VBI lines in order for your TV to lock onto the pics.

Re: Future of TV?
 

have a look here :)

Re: Future of TV?
 

Looks like he's not hosting the images any more.

Proppin - thanks! Things I never knew I never knew! How are these Vertical Blanking Interval lines used to allow a TV to 'lock on' to a picture?

Re: Future of TV?
 

There were a couple of images still there - and they clearly look fantastic!

I am supposing that HDTV will further coverge traditional broadcast into computer territory (or should that be the other way around?)

So this is in reality what the guys with their flashy plasmas are wanting to pump into their DVI ports?

Re: Future of TV?
 

Theres timing information in some of them which tells the TV that its the start of a field and whether its an odd or even field etc. The pics wouldn't be very good if the TV couldn't find the top of the fields!

They are also used to pass on analogue teletext, analogue test signals (VITS), the first half of line 23 also signals AFD/Aspect ratio info to your TV.

The horizontally blanked parts of the analogue picture data (sync pulses, and colour burst etc) is also not sent within MPEG. The STB produces the signalling the TV needs.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Does anyone know how much bandwidth HDTV takes up?

Re: Future of TV?
 

The article linked in the original post says that digital broadcasting is split into a number of 'multiplexes', and that at standard definition each multiplex can carry 4-6 channels. It goes on to say that a single HDTV broadcast would require an entire multiplex to itself. What this amounts to in bitrate terms I don't know, but comparitively the answer seems to be 'up to six times more than a standard-definition broadcast'.

Re: Future of TV?
 

If you double the size of the picture then you quadruple the number of pixels in that image 1x1=1 2x2=4 etc. Plus I imagine better sound and transmission overhead links nicely back to the 5-6 times more bandwidth.

Re: Future of TV?
 

All getting a little teccie for me!! I was having a snoop round the BBC's Research dept to see if there was any info on there - there is but most of it's 5 years old now - good to see they were ahead in the r&d!

It talks on there about DVD quality - which I guess is around 10mbps. Would the current ntl infrastructure be able to cope with minimal additional investment?

Re: Future of TV?
 

Googled this and this on digital spy came back

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=119698

Indicates the combined digital radio bandwidth is 8Mb/s
An average DTV channel is 4Mbs
A quality one is already 8Mb/s
And an Analogue on is 36Mb/s

There are 40 odd analogue channels transmitted, switching off the analogue broadcast will free up 1440Mb/s of bandwidth that could be used for HDTV. I'm sure Proppin will come along and correct my guesstimates, but it looks like NTL will be able to carry the signals. You just need a new STB to decode them.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Not really ntl related - moved to Technology forum. :)

Re: Future of TV?
 

Sad I know, but I've got the kit!

The test transmission on astra 1 is currently using between 15 and 17Mb/s.
A cable multiplex can carry approx 38Mb/s.

Re: Future of TV?
 

There are a few more lower down

Re: Future of TV?
 

You will also need a HDTV capable TV.
You can't even convince some people to go digital, I think HDTV will only appeal to the technology hungy like some of us. Its more popular in the states and Japan as they used NTSC up until now and NTSC's resolution is lower than PAL's.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Guys, I strongly recommend that you check out some of the clips on this link:
http://www.wmvhd.com/

If you have a widescreen monitor, set it to 1280x768 (the correct resolution for viewing them) or 1280x1024 for a usual monitor.
1024x768 is better than nothing.

I wish I'd never discovered these because watching a regular DVD on my PC is just not the same - I notice the low resolution a lot more now... :cry:

Re: Future of TV?
 

HDTV has been around decades - literally

I first saw it at a CES show in las vegas in around 1990

(where I also saw my first gas plasma screen btw)

Re: Future of TV?
 

Sad? No! Can I come round your house? I'll bring the popcorn!

Do you have the TV that can view HD broadcasts too?

Re: Future of TV?
 

Is my assumption about analogue bandwidth usagen in anywhere near the right ballpark? If so the initial BBC HDTV, Sky Sports HDTV, UK Drama HDTV and Sky Movies 1 HDTV will all fit easily into the vacated space.

Re: Future of TV?
 

As far as costs go there of course massive costs in TV production to go to HDTV. Not just the filiming and editing equipment either. As it produces a higher definition sets that look ok on 'normal' TV show up all sorts of 'flaws' in HDTV and thus set production etc is much more expensive as well.

Re: Future of TV?
 

The Blakes7 and DrWho sets would not stand up well to that sort of scrutiny!

Re: Future of TV?
 

Thanks for the reply guys :) Think i got it, something to do with lines yeah :D

Re: Future of TV?
 

Most, if not all, of the major networks such as CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, etc., are already broadcasting in digital along with the analog. The digital signal is available. You just need the equipment.

For over-the-air free television, such as CityTV or ABC or NBC etc., you need a digital receiver box. Some HDTVs have it built in. Ours don't. If you don't have it built in, you need an external receiver which runs about 50 to 100 pounds.

For cable, you need a digital receiver which most people have, but it also needs to be HDTV compliant, which most people don't have. My cable company offers a 350 pound Motorla HDTV receiver, but it also has a 80 GB DVR included.

For satellite, it is pretty much the same thing. You need a HDTV receiver.



As for material, well, as I said, all the major networks broadcast in digital already. For example, CityTV is a free channel. I can get the regular CityTV, or I can view CityTV HD. Same programming, but the shows that are available in HD are broadcasted in HD on the HD signal.

Re: Future of TV?
 

HDTV is high resolution television presented in a 16:9 aspect ratio with AC-3 sound.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Ooops, I deleted the pictures... Didn't think anyone is still looking at them. My apologies.




More on the content. I have satellite television (well, my parents have it, but I bought my own HDTV receiver), and I get the following HDTV enabled channels:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/2.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/3.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/4.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/5.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/6.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/7.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/8.gif



and of course, 5 regular porn channels plus one in HD: (so you don't miss the details...)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2004/04/9.gif

Re: Future of TV?
 

One more post... Compare the regular TV:
http://www.hothardware.com/reviews/i.../compare2a.htm

With the HDTV:
http://www.hothardware.com/reviews/i.../compare2b.htm


Amazing huh? Oh and, my folks have this TV:
http://www.samsung.ca/cgi-bin/naseca...rojection+HDTV

I'd love one, but I can't afford one, so I watch stuff on my computer monitor.

Re: Future of TV?
 

did they even stand up to normal TV ? :)

Re: Future of TV?
 

The 8 MHz space vacated by each analogue cable TV channel can hold a digital multiplex of 38Mb/s.
I think HDTV is a long way from our screens. I know of one single HDTV channel available to the UK, from Astra 1.

Re: Future of TV?
 

I looked at it using an MPEG analyser at work. I didn't look at the pics as I don't have a HDTV capable reciever or monitor. :cry:

Altho I have just thought of a way I might be able to which I'll try tommorow! ;)

Re: Future of TV?
 

All you really need is a high spec PC monitor capable of either 1280x768 (must be widescreen) or 1280x1024.
Most LCD TVs do that resolution anyway and are 720 HDTV ready.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Yep I'm going to use a laptop with a USB satellite reciever feeding it pictures.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Can we get HDTV via any form of Sky?
If so, I'd seriously consider getting it - my apartment block has the connectors already in place. (and BT! but no NTL... :grind: )

Re: Future of TV?
 

No, the only HDTV transmission available that I know of is on Astra 1H.

Re: Future of TV?
 

I was just hypothosysing about what would be a good selection of launch HDTV channels as PPUTB says Astra only at the mo, and he should know.

Re: Future of TV?
 

No doubt :), shame though...

Re: Future of TV?
 

Quite true, there would have to be a huge investment in the whole broadcast chain to go hi-def. But this is what we pay the licence fees for!

As far as I know the Beeb are already filing some stuff in HD, I think Walking with Dinosours, or Blue Planet or one of these was - so they're already starting to build a library of content.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Those sorts of programmes are shot on film rather than video, AFAIK, so the Master version of the programme will lend itself nicely to a repeat in HD, when the time (eventually) comes.

Re: Future of TV?
 

hmm seems strange them mentioning the need for better compression when it already exists !! normal digital tv in the uk uses upto 8mbit/s and is mpeg-2 as said average is about 4mbit/s
Hdtv in america still uses mpeg-2 and requires around the 20mbit ballpark per channel.
As the switchover to hdtv will require new hardware why dont they go the whole hog and move to mpeg-4 ??? it is far superior in terms of compression and is the basis of the latest, windows media 9, quicktime 6, real 10, as well as divx 5 and xvid.
As microsoft have from there demonstrations the high end hdtv can be done at 6mbit with ease. Which would put it at 1.5x a current channels space. if theye used 720p they could use 4mbit which is the same as a normal tv channel.

Could someone please make the beeb wake up and smell the coffee. Sufficent compression does exist already it can be done NOW.

As for analogue switch off terrestrial will only gain 5-6 channels room. Unsure about cable, and sattelite analogue is already off

K

Edit - and yes there is already a large amount of programs being recorded in high def in order to sell them to the states etc. Things like wimbledon and the snooker etc are all hdtv recorded

Re: Future of TV?
 

I can't remember which one it was, but there was some PR about it being the first BBC programme to be shot in hi-def. I'll do some snooping and let you know.

Re: Future of TV?
 

With higher compression of MPEG-2, you can fit 2 HDTV channels into a 6 MHz slot. HDTV is about 19.5 Mbps compressed, and a 6 MHz slot can support about 40 Mbps.

Re: Future of TV?
 

Has Europe already set its HDTV standards? As such the MP2 route might be set into EU legislation?

Re: Future of TV?
 

*ahem*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/overview.shtml :D
http://developers.slashdot.org/artic...id=141&tid=188
and it's Open Source! :eek:

Re: Future of TV?
 

Some HDTV caps here, in the correct resolution for 720:
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV1.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV2.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV3.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV4.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV5.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV6.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV7.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV8.jpg
http://www.richardm.co.uk/images/forums_etc/HDTV9.jpg

Re: Future of TV?
 

That seems nice idea, hopefully they can work with xvid which is also open source, as they can get 1/4 to 1/3 of the data rate of mp2, where that one there only getting half.

As for the EU setting hdtv standards i sure hope they havent and won't the mp2 platform is old and outdated, the mpeg-4 option is far more efficent at compressing data and keeping up quality. Even microsoft are trying to take the lead on it i wonder if they'll design a stb :-) lets hope it doesnt bsod if they do

K

Re: Future of TV?
 

its good to know that while my screen will be getting better pictures sent to it the quality of the shows will continue to fall untill all thats left friends on endless repeats and reality tv

here ends my rant :)

hdtv is good very nice more than happy to have it.