Realplayer 10 released
 

Link
Download

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I hate Realplayer. It tangle's itself up in the system and likes to startup with windows without you setting it too. Bah Mediaplayer rules :)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

:erm: .......thanks for the vote of support :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yup, have to agree with defiant. That's what makes that ruling in the European court of justice so laughable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Microsoft, but nine times out of ten, no matter how crappy their products, they're still the best of a bad bunch. Realplayer is just one example. Rather put hot skewars through my eyes than use it. Mediaplayer any day! :-)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

well i have downloaded it Ramrod so someone appreciated your thread :pp :D

I haven't found anything that comes close for streaming.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I don't think the swear filter could handle my feelings on realplayer :upyours: Try typing 'I hate realplayer' into Google to see what I mean.

The thing is, it could be so much better. There's a version for *nix systems called the Community Version because it's produced by volunteers, it's how Realplayer should be (i.e. it doesn't take over your pc).

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Well I just went and got it, so thanks Ramrod. The 'preferences' options are vast and bewildering, but if you have a little patience and work through them one at a time, you can configure Real Player so it only does what you want it to.

And as for arguments about M$, the EU and media players, I think the whole world is a better place if there is some genuine competition out there. M$ gets its products out due to its built-in advantage, not because they are the best. IMO technologies produced by Real and by Apple are both better than, for example WMV. I for one don't want to see us forced to use an inferior product. Everyone download Real Player NOW!!

Incidentally, I noticed they decided to stop messing around with the brand name and have reverted to calling it 'Real Player' instead of 'RealOne'. Good on them.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Couldn't have put it better.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

But then there's the argument that it should start off in a fairly minimal state, i.e. it should only associate itself with realmedia files and only load itself when it is called, rather than requiring the user to wage war with the preferences...especially if they are not computer savvy.

I can't find it again, but I read a letter from someone who was on the Real team for programming RP. He was basically pretty peed off as the developers/designers had produced a wonderful player, and then the marketing people etc got involved and RP ended up as the messy piece of software we get today. Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with real media, it's just the player that's the issue.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

...all very true :)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

So, in order to promove "genuine" competition, you prevent Microsoft from improving their products.

Yay. I'm sorry, but continental Europeans wouldn't know free enterprise if it hit them in the face. Restricting a company's ability to improve their products IS NOT competition.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'improve their products'?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

One of the few times I'm glad that the Mac version of an app doesn't have the feature set of the Windows version. RealOne for OS X is a basic player that only plays RealMedia (and doesn't install any extra crap)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

No-one's trying to stop them from improving their products.

Neither is restricting an OEM's ability to pre-install competitors' products (as MS' licensing scheme did with OEMs who wanted to preinstall RealPlayer, Netscape etc).

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Er your forgetting something here aren't you. That copy of Windows your using now is not yours. Its Microsoft's you have just paid for the licence and that's all. What they put in there software should be there business and only there business. No court should have the right to tell them otherwise. The only thing I would like to see on the next version of windows is a choice when installing like the 95/98 days

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Why? It's their product, surely they know it best and should be left to decide what is installed on your machine? :rolleyes: :)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

In that case your giving your personal information to a machine that you legally have no control over.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

But atleast at this present time I don't have any third parties forcing Microsoft to put there rubbish on the OS. I have what I need on there now and that doe's me. I wouldn't like to have x-amount of players,browser's,picture editors etc. Christ the operating system would need to come with a new 120GB hdd

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

It's not about forcing MS to put stuff in the OS. I was referring to OEMs pre-installing stuff on their computers (like the way Compaq machines pre-install "Compaq Disgnostics for Windows"). No-one's talking about making MS put anything extra in the retail boxes of Windows.

HP are due to release their own MP3/MP4 player based on Apple's iPod. This will require their machines to have QuickTime/iTunes pre-installed. Under MS' previous licensing scheme (which I think has been stopped by the DoJ) they would not have been allowed to do this. Seeing as how OEMs aren't allowed to supply a Windows install CD with their machines (they have to provide a "system restore" CD that installs a pre-set Windows installation) this would not affect what MS would have to put on the standard WinXP CD.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Bizarre as my Dell came with a full copy of windows, its on a dell printed CD but its still a full copy :confused:

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yep the place I worked at used to have Dell computers. Of course they had corp licence's but every box with a pc inside has a cd

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yeah, I just noticed that some of our HP machines come with a WinXP SP1 CD along with a restore CD (you have to use the 2 together). I'm sure I read a while back about OEMs not giving Windows CDs away (although maybe that's another thing they weren't allowed to do in Europe).

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I have a full Win XP CD at home - it came with Connectix Virtual PC. The box contains two discs. The first installs Virtual PC for Mac OSX, the second is the guest operating system you have chosen to buy, in my case Windows XP, although I could have chosen from a range of x86 compatible OSes. The documentation names Connectix Corp. as the OEM.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Now that's interesting. My copy of VPC (version 5) didn't come with a Win98 CD. The VPC setup program installed a pre-set disk image with Win98 preinstalled. It just came with a Win98 manual with the licence stuck to the back.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I actually got this last week - thanks for the link though! I find Realoneplayer perfectly fine to use i use it and windows media player?!

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Most likely just different deals on offer from Microsoft

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Bundling extra functionality with Windows for free. Or even for a price. That is improving the product.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

But it is a very narrow-minded view of what is good for the consumer. It is also short-sighted.

Allowing Microsoft to abuse its effective monopoly in this way harms the ability of competing products to get into the market. It won't wash to say that the best will win; history is littered with examples of how that is not the case. So for short-term gain, the consumer risks being forced to put up with products that are less good than they could be in the longer term.

I'm glad you added 'for a price', because nothing that is bundled with Windows is free. The developers who made the media player have to have their wages paid from somewhere. That cost is passed on to the consumer in the price of windows itself - so you pay for Windows media player whether you want it or not. Since when was forcing someone to pay for something they don't want and have no intention of using, considered good for them?

Frankly, I think the regulated competition of Europe is a far more equitable way to do business than the American style.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

If hoover suddenly decided to make vacuum cleaners with built in coffee makers, would that be a anti-competition, since a customer usually buys a vacuum cleaner before a coffee maker?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

So your saying Microsoft should not be allowed to add software into there own system:erm: If you dont like it get Linux.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I already have Mac OSX, thanks. :)

I am saying that as a manufacturer of the operating system used by more than 90% of the world's desktop computers, Microsoft has an obligation to separate the sale of the operating system, and the sale of any programs designed to work on that operating system. Anything else gives them an unfair commercial advantage that is in nobody's interest but their own.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Did someone say that Realplayer had been updated?
All I can see is an anti MS bash thread :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Not a bit of it - I am using Win 2k right now, on my work PC. It is a perfectly good operating system and rarely has any problems, unlike my old machine that had Win 98 and used to blue-screen me maybe once a week. I'm not anti-MS as such, I am pro-choice. What MS is currently doing, with its media player and in other areas, is anti-choice. Just as soon as they give up, me and Bill will get on just fine. :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

i know....all I did was inform people that a new version was out. Now look what's happening.... :disturbd:

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I have been messing around with Real Player 10 for a while now (using a public beta copy). I am impressed with it, and it certainly loads faster than RealOne, doesn't seem to take over your system as much as RealOne.

All in all, a better player than RealOne. I still prefer Windows Media Player though.

Edit: I just wish that a) their production/server software costed a bit less (The full version of RealProducer is $150 and Helix Universal Server is over $1000, I am looking into buying them for work), and b) Real themselves actually took any notice when I tried to buy these things from them. A year or so back, I had £2000 to spend on a Real Server and the gits wouldn't even return my calls. Of course, because I didn't spend the money, I lost it.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Thanks Ramrod but no thank you.I also hate Realplayer.Thanks for the headsup though. :)

Incog.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Right, which is why the EU wants to force Microsoft to strip functionality, the improvements they made, out of Windows? Come on.

Yes it is. Microsoft is the owner of its own products and can make ANY restrictions for the sale and use of its product. If you don't like it, TOUGH. Don't use it.

Actually, we were. The original topic was Real, Windows Media, and other media players. The EU decided to force Microsoft to remove the improvements it made to the operating system by offering Windows without Media Player. That is NOT free enterprise.

You moved towards the IE/Netscape issue, where Microsoft said that in order to pre-install our product, you have to do [this]. That is completely acceptable, because MICROSOFT OWNS THE SOFTWARE. If you don't agree, YOU CANNOT USE IT, because IT IS NOT YOURS. Don't install it then.



So? It is FREE ENTERPRISE. Microsoft should have the right to FREELY improve its products in ANY WAY THEY WANT without interference from the government. If the rest of the world can't come up with something better, tough ****. If they can, then great! Because most people would want the best product for the lowest price.

They are not abusing anything. They are not a monopoly either. The only thing that harms competing products from entering the market is their good products that people love. If others can't come up with something better, then TOUGH ****. This is the fundamentals of free enterprise.

The consumer isn't forced to do anything! Did you know that you can go out and buy Linux? Or an Apple? DID YOU KNOW THAT? Did you know that there is NOTHING that FORCES you to put up with products that are less good? NOTHING. SHOW me the law if you disagree with me. PLEASE.

So?

No one is FORCING anyone to pay for ANYTHING they don't want. You either accept the product Microsoft has to offer, or you don't. I can't go to the store and buy water, but not the plastic bottle, because I don't want it. I can't go to the store to buy a can of corn, but I want only the corn, not the can. YOU PAY FOR THE PRODUCT. If Microsoft, or any company, chooses to break the product down into individual parts, THAT IS THEIR PREROGGATIVE. If they don't, THOUGH ****. NO ONE is forcing ANYONE to buy anything.

There is no such thing as regulated competition. It isn't competition then. You're advocating socialism. Thats fine, you have that right, but I completely disagee with it because I'm a capitalist and believe in the free enterprise system.


Microsoft has NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER. They are a corporation, and they offer products to the general public. If you are interested in acquiring it, you make a deal with them with stipulations that both parties agree to. If you can't reach an agreement, you take your business elsewhere. THERE IS NO OBLIGATION. Microsoft doesn't owe anyone anything.

Unfair advantage? Absolutely not. ANYONE can write their own operating system and market it. They do have an advantage, yes, and that is their RIGHT since it is THEIR product.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

You right it isn't free enterprise, but the EU doesn't support free enterprise as much as the US. So if microsoft wants to trade in europe they must obey european laws

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

That is true. And that was my point. It isn't free enterprise, but the loudmouths in Brussels are doing it in the name of free enterprise. They wouldn't know what that means if it hit them in the face.

I think it would be funny if Microsoft decides instead of giving the source code as the EU demanded to just close up shop and move out. Suddenly, computers is a luxury item again that will be unuseable by the unwashed masses.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

And all those Anti Windows people who never the less use Windows can start installing Binux

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

And all those lovely euros will be going in someone else bank account.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Linux is free....

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

oh look Defiant rejoins the forum and a thread turns into a warzone. Oh and its mister yankee doodle posting his stupid ideas. Jerrek, remember this is a UK forum, Our rules are different.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Now now ic14 less of that

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yes welcome back defiant :welcome:

What did Jerrek do against the rules?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yep its been along time :D

Nothing agains't the rules but I dont agree with this,

people are allowed there own view's ;)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Have a look at the Free Software Foundation and see what is meant by free, the licence it (i.e the Kernel) is distributed under does not preclude charging for it, so people may make money off of it.

I think your analysis of what would happen if MS were to pull out of Europe isn't particularly likely. The more probable situation would be that there would be a time of readjustment, which would be a huge desruption, while all existing MS products are replaced with alternatives. Because of the vacumn created, a hell of a lot more research would be done, improving them for use in everyday life. I.e, Linux on the desktop would be sped up a lot.

Arguing that, I can see that it is bad to have a homogeous environment where one product dominates because of the dangers if that product dissapears/develops a major fault. It is exactly those resons why I think that a controlled market is better than free trade. From my perspective I believe that free trade only serves in the long run to stifle cooperation and creativity and reduces consumer choice.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Or companie's and home user's would buy Windows directly from the state's over the net/ads ;)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Welcome back Defiant..

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Then they'd get import duty slapped on the top, the products seized if they don't declare them. No legal recourse if the software causes damage. No technical support etc :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

In all honesty do you really think people would worry about that though. I wouldn't. I'd have Windows over Binux anyday :angel:

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Hello, Lets keep it nice now children :)

Anyway its only realplayer it is really sad if you people argue over something like that then DUDES!

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yep agreed its all down to freedom of choice:)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I think most companies would worry about it. As for individuals, a major reason why Windows is the prevalent OS for home use, is quite simply the fact that it comes pre-installed on most pcs. If another OS were to be installed in it's place, I doubt many people would think of changing it and any replacement OS would most likely be mostly indistinguishable to the average end user. It would be a change about as significant from an older version of windows to the latest version, people adapt and get used to it.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I have created a monster.... :disturbd:

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Aww sorry, we've hijacked your thread :) I'll start another one entitled 'I prefer my OS because...' later, just as soon as my mouse batteries have recharged and the cursor doesn't keep jumping over the screen :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Thanks for the red rep jerk (jerrek)
Really nice ;)

And defient, surprised you came back. BTW its linux, not binux.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

CHILL OUT PEOPLE!

First of all welcome back defiant, secound of all i have used linux and dont like it at all. MAC OSX for me

Secound of all lets keep chilled out theres no reason for anger to start up here. Everyone has there opinions so ic shoould respect yours and you should respect the fact that he hates you. No need to bad rep him for that :) Seriously though lets keep carm

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

A yes to both and a big yes the the second one :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

by resspecting the fact he hates you mean dont rep him badly :)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Bah you dont know me then. I'm not interested in this repping business, not bad reps anyway. This is just fun if people take things the wrong way well its not my problem. I've repped no one and the admin can check on that. Though I know there are people who do give bad reps out there, leave nasty comments and dont leave there name...

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I normally detest posts which flatly refuse to engage with issues raised by other members. But Jerrek, your comments are so shockingly naive, and ignorant of world affairs, I really can't be bothered. Sorry.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

oh sorry it was jerrek who gave it. MY mistake. sorry.


And why dont people leave there name its annoying. Bap reps shouldnt count if there is no name

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

When you get a second ball you get to see everyones names :)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Really? Thats so COOL!

Quick people rep me. I'll say good things errr..

I ahte microsoft

emmm goverment is rubbish up with far left

I am a linux fan

rep me rep me rep me :D

How much good points do you need?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

You can still download it for free. They only charge for support services.

Like what? Good luck. The unwashed masses will have to switch to Macs or Linux, both with limited software. "What do you mean I can't run World of Warcraft on my Mac?"

Lets get real. It would be a disaster. It would hurt both Microsoft and the people.

True, but how long is that going to take? 3 years? 5 years?

This has nothing to do with free trade. Trade and the market are completely separate concepts. You're advocating a controlled market, which has proved time and time again that it does not work. If it did, the USSR would still exist. If you want to turn to controlled markets and controlled economies (communism), fine. I don't. I'm a FREE market entrepeneur.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Please, lets get serious. Do you really want to explain to your grandmother how to mount disks and to use pine and gnome/kde/whateverX you like to check her email? Windows and Macs are the easiest. THAT is why they come preinstalled because most people can't use Linux. And THAT is why Microsoft is dominating. They are taking away the stuff nerds like to see. Command lines, source code, and so on. You can't customize Windows as much as Linux because Windows is closed. Linux is geared towards nerds, and as long as that is the case, Microsoft will dominate because when they design their software they put a user's hat on, not a nerd's.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

What issues did I not engage in?

How are my comments naive? Because I don't advocate communism (planned economies)? Because I'm a capitalist?

:td: :rolleyes:

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Jerrek, can I just remind you that Mac OSX is basically FreeBSD hidden behind a pretty interface. It wouldn't take much for someone to do that to Linux.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Then it would have been done already.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

and the work that they've put into it, and any non-free packages that are included in the distribution. A good example here is Mac OSX. It has a BSD based kernel, which is distributed under the free BSD licence. However, the overlaying software like the shell (GUI) is not free and this is what you are paying for.

Limited software? Have a look on freshmeat etc. True, a lot of the software doesn't have the maturity of the Windows equivalents, particularly in the games area, but those companies that produce software for the Windows systems would in all probability switch to producing software for Macs/Linux/BSD. It would be that or take a huge drop in revenue.

I'm not suggesting that it will happen, the chances of it are infinitesimally small, I'm just giving my opinion on the 'what if' scenario. I don't necessarily think that it will hurt people, it would just be a pain in the *ss. People would carry on using their current products (Windows) until when in the normal course of things they would upgrade they instead switch to a new system. 3-5 years is a fairly good estimate (it's about the estimates that give for Linux on the desktop now). Having the need to improve things will also help things along a bit I feel. By that time, projects like Wine would have moved along so issues of backwards compatibility with existing products won't be so much of an issue.

I apologise for my lack of knowledge of economic terminology. We, in Europe, have a controlled market which has proved that it does work. That is the level of control that I advocate, so I don't see why it always has to come back to total control (communism).

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

:notopic:

Thought the EU was controlled by Germany and France. They always seem to come out on top no matter what anyway. Anything they dont like they put right. Anything the others dont like well lump it LOL

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Supermount, runs in the same way as the MS mounting system, takes away the need for explicit mounting. Installed by default in most of the more user-friendly distributions.

Mozilla/Thunderbird, also commonly used mailers on windows systems. Evolution, Outlook look-alike with some improved features. Also installed as default on most user-friendly distributions.

Gnome/KDE, desktop managers that provide a graphical interface, in much the same way as Windows Explorer provides a graphical interface on Windows desktops. Again, installed as a default

I don't take issue with Windows/Macs being the easiest to operate, that is most certainly the case. Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that people should dump all other OS's and switch to Linux. I wouldn't reccommend that. What I take issue with is the way Microsoft conduct their business and that their use of closed standards (that's standards, not source, I take no exception to proprietary software) locks people in to their software and does reduce freedom of choice. If you look more closely at the history of computing, you'll soon see a different picture of why Microsoft dominate.

And yes, currently, Linux is for nerds. It is inwieldy and complicated. But that is a picture that is very rapidly changing, very very rapidly thanks to the likes of Sun and Novell.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

It's been changing for years and it's still not much easier and the thing is, so has Windows. Linux will never catch up, it's like Coke vs someobscurecola .. it'll never get anywhere near the consumer foothold Microsoft has currently or will have in the future.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yep now they don't have there hands tied with the win9x kernel there's going to be no stopping them. I've heard allot of good thing about Windows Longhorn too. There working on a new file system for that one aren't they

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

WinFS

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

If you think back to the Win9x days the introduction of Windows XP has made it so easy for the none pc literate its unreal

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I am still using real player basic 8

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Microsoft is really about to come though dispite all this fines. If you thought they where big before just wait.

XP is a massive improvement and we are about to see a huge leap forward again with lornhorn. I use a mac and like it but know that windows will continue to move forward. No matter what people say microsoft do make good products

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Europe used to be free market, but has steadily drifted towards socialism and planned economies. What you have right now is semi-capitalism with a touch (ok more than a touch...) of planned economies. Planned economies do not work. Just compare East Germany to West Germany. North Korea to South Korea. Hong Kong and Republic of China to People's Republic of China.

Why is it that you advocate restriction of fundamental liberties and freedoms when you walk through the door into a factory or business? Who are you to tell another company how to run itself? Who are you to force companies to go into certain directions, or to prevent companies from expanding into certain fields?

I'm sure you would object if all your personal actions were to be reviewed and planned by a higher authority. Your life just wouldn't work out. The same can be said for corporations and businesses. The economies of the above-mentioned countries are prime example of what planned economies end up with.

The United States' GDP per capita is $37,000. The quasi-free economies of western Europe can't even reach $30,000 except for a few single exceptions. The former planned economies of eastern Europe is even worse. China's GDP per capita is below $4,000.

So no, planned economies do not work, and Europe is drifting steadily over to the left that advocate exactly that. Restricting a company's freedom to innovate is a bad idea. Luckily, the United States is still around so even if you restrict innovation, research, development, and entrepeneurship, you can still marginally reap the benefits of American ingeniuty and innovation.

See here: http://www.time.com/time/europe/maga...574849,00.html

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

That is nice, but zoooooooooooooooooooooom, you completely missed the point. WINDOWS IS EASIER THAN LINUX. End-of-discussion.

HOW? The only reason your freedom of choice is reduced is because YOU *want* to run THEIR product. If you get rid of THEIR product(s), you have the entire market to choose from. Their product is only ONE on the market. CHOOSE something different! It isn't hard to comprehend!

They have every right to do whatever they want with their software. No one forces you to buy it. You enter into a deal with Microsoft when you buy their software. If the deal is unacceptable, DO NOT ENTER IT. It is THEIR SOFTWARE. YOU are the person that want to use it. YOU don't own it. YOU have no right to say how another person or company should run his life or the business.

QUIT complaining and start innovating and deliver a product that is better.

Innovation, good marketing, and a good sense for business. AND, they are CUSTOMER focused. USER focused. Something which Linux still needs to learn.

I thought you said that you're locked into buying Microsoft products? I thought you said that Microsoft is a barrier to entry into the market? How can Linux then be changing and evolving so rapidly?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

It has. Look at recent distibutions of Redhat or Mandrake.

Although I personally like Windows (and Mac OSX), I do think there are four reasons people use Windows

• Because it was pre-installed on the machine. AFAIK Microsoft require any PC manufacturers that licence Windows to install it on all new machines as the Primary OS. This, in my view, is extremely anti-competitive.
• It has loads of software available.
• Inertia. People know it, and stick with what they know, even if it is worse (not that I am saying Windows is worse).
• They know that any thing they do on their PC will be readable on other PCs.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I'm not so sure about that. Linux has no doubt been improving, and there is only so many improvements one can make to a system. I mean, Word 2000 and Word 2003 is very similar.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

No. Dell offers Linux based servers. BUT, even if they did require manufacturers to only install Windows, IT IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE.

No one is forcing the manufacturer to use Microsoft products. Microsoft can make any requirement they want with the deal that the manufacturer signs with them. If it is unacceptable, don't take it. If it is acceptable, take it. I see NOTHING wrong with this strategy. If manufacturers had something else to turn to they would all say no. BUT, they don't really have an alternative, so most agree to it. Does that force the user to use Windows? NO. He can remove it and isntall whatever he wants.

I agree.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

I do find it ironic that Sun are helping develop an open source operating system, yet they used to force the users of their systems to use propriatory hardware, which was usually more expensive than the generic PC equivalent. Still, maybe they have changed their ways

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Restrictions of whose fundamental liberties and freedoms? I do not advocate restricting anyones liberties. It is my personal belief that people be free to do whatever they choose, so long as it does not (actively) cause a negative impact on anothers liberties. I hope and believe that this gives everyone the maximum freedom possible. I do not see businesses as people, they are quasi-physical constructs (okay, I made that up :)) that should not be afforded the same liberties as individuals. It is my belief that what you call free enterprise does negatively impact on the liberties of individuals, but, without major change, they are a necessary evil.

Why do I feel that I have the right to tell businesses what to do? I don't, but I feel I have a right to have an input in what businesses do. Where does this right come from? It comes from the fact that I am one of the people, and I feel that the people as a whole have a right to influence businesses. The higher authority is the people, and we are all part of that higher authority.

Monetary wealth is one way of looking at things, not my chosen way though. Also, I feel that all people should have access to approximately equal wealth, if you accept that there is only a finite amount of money in the world then for things to balance out the GDPPC of the US would have to be reduced. From that, I hope that you can see that according to my beliefs, free enterprise is not the way to go about things.

I'm not trying to say that my way is right, or even that it would work. But these are my strongly held beliefs and all I would like from it is for people to undersatnd that. As an individual, all I can do is make these beliefs known and have my say in how things are to be, the same as that is all you can do, and the actual path that is taken will be a consensus decision based on the beliefs of all of the people.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Hmm, you pointed out specific parts of a *nix operating system that were not user-friendly, I countered those, so I feel that it is you that has missed the point on that one. As you will have seen, I didn't disagree with you that, overall a Linux distribution is harder to use than windows.

Well actually, I don't want to run their OS, and funnily enough, I don't. So you ask, what is the problem? The problem is, they have people so locked in to their technology that it is impossible to avoid. Why can I not visit some webpages when I have a standards compliant browser? Why do people keep sending me word document files? Why do java applications not run on my VM?

[QUOTE=Jerrek]
They have every right to do whatever they want with their software. No one forces you to buy it. You enter into a deal with Microsoft when you buy their software. If the deal is unacceptable, DO NOT ENTER IT. It is THEIR SOFTWARE. YOU are the person that want to use it. YOU don't own it. YOU have no right to say how another person or company should run his life or the business.
[QUOTE]

Again, it is your belief that they can do what they want with the software they write. I don't, it's all opinion so there's no need to shout :) See my above posting for my views on individuals/businesses.

Watch out, I just might ;) Though user interfaces aren't my forte, I'm planning to start work on some open-source AI software.

Linux, the kernel doesn't need to learn anything, it already does what it's supposed to. Those who want to market distributions based on that Kernel do need to learn some lessons though. Look, I'm not trying to evangelise Linux and cause damnation to Windows here. I think that windows is a very sound product. I have said it before but I'll say it again, what I take exception to is the way MS does business.

I'm not locked into buying them, but I'm still locked into certain fundamentals of their technology (e.e word files). And where did I say that MS were a barrier to entry into the market?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Although I have agreed to most of your points about windows which i think is the market leader primaily because its a good product i disagree with that windows is installed on most computers and that is a large reason for thier success

I think pre-installed Linux is a bad idea if you not good enough to install it you shouldnt be messing with it. For the avrage consumer microsoft is the best product out there. It seems to have become a 'status symbol' to hate microsoft which is stupid and petty. All companys are about making money and that includes Apple and linux companys the only diffrance it microsoft have been the best at it.

End of the day microsoft make great products and their main reason for their success is the standard of their products. Office and winXP for example are excellent bits of software.

And how many people here use a XBOX?

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Actually, I believe it was my point (the one Jerrek was answering)

And, my point was that it would be relatively easy for one of the larger companies to take an OS like Linux, and put a nice GUI on it, in much the same way Apple did with FreeBSD (Mac OSX). I was not necessarily advocating the use of current distributions on Linux.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Yes, but mac osx (which I use now) is still not a large market share. Onne of the key problems is convinicing people to move away from windows. Windows is a good product now and it will be harder to convince people to move. Mac osx is a better product than linux as it is more mainstream and is closing in on windows in terms of software avalible.

The problem with mac is the fact you need apple hardware which is expensive (face it, it is no matter what you can say abboout part for part or this annd that or 'mac is fully featured') the price of thier computers is stuiply high. Also the fact that people do nnoot know enoough aboout it. What put me of macs for a long time was the community! It doesnt help to hear mac fans blast windows and talk up their os all the time, it annoyed me. After all Apple would do everything microsoft is doing if it made them more money they are not a good guy. In the end i moved because of its look (yah i know shallow) but i do not regret it i love the OS easy and nice looking (altough its crashed more times than XP did) plus the hardware (17ich powerbook) is great. but i will just as happly move to windows.

Basicallly Microsoft is best for the consumer as it doesnt requuire special software or any special hardware it just works on a computer and does the internet which is what most people want. They do not want the mess around the linux or pay over the odds for hardware cos its a mac. THE MAN ON THE STREET wants a computer and nothing else. We have diffrent OS'S but we are into computers other people dont have the time or interst so they go with what they know and it does what they want. Hassling the consumer about other OS wont work because they dont really understand and teaching them wont work because they dont want to know

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

No, it was me not engaging in the issues by refusing to give a proper reply to your post. I was criticising myself at that point, not you! :)

I am suggesting you are naive because you are thinking in extremely black-and-white terms. As Philip J Fry has since pointed out, you can have a totally controlled economy, like the USSR, anything goes capitalism (which nobody has) or varying degrees of regulated competition. Both the EU and the USA have regulated competition; the EU's regulation is more evident than that in the USA, but don't kid yourself that the States has a completely free market. Your anti-trust laws have seen to that.

The essential difference between a regulated market and a controlled market is that in a regulated regime, competition is encouraged and legally protected, as it is held to be the best way to safeguard the long-term interests of the consumer. In a Soviet-style controlled economy, competition is not allowed, on the (IMO sorely mistaken) assumption that it is more efficient if everyone works as a collective.

Ironically (and to try to keep on topic), M$ has fallen foul of the regulated market in both the EU and the USA. Remember it was a US judge that was asked to rule in the 'browser wars', and a number of US states are still pursuing the company through the courts. Here in Europe M$ has been accused of doing things with its media player that are contrary to our own, admittedly more stringent, competition regulations.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

No - it's DIFFERENT. That's another thing entirely.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Realplayer 10 is so much faster than previous other versions... and it connects to content so much faster. Woo Hoo!

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Excellent....someone who is happy with it :D

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

Erm, lets see:


"We, in Europe, have a controlled market which has proved that it does work. That is the level of control that I advocate, so I don't see why it always has to come back to total control (communism)"


So, what will it be?


Yes. Your rights and freedoms stop where mine begins. I do agree with you. No one has a right to infringe on another person's rights.

No. Corporation, the concept, is a legal term. There never was any of that. It was individuals that decided to band together to provide a product or service to society. You are advocating to infringe on those individuals' rights and freedoms. There is nothing evil about a corporation or a business.

Do you REALLY support restricting my rights and freedoms to make products, provice services, and to improve it in any way I can? Assuming I'm a corporation. A one-man corporation. What grounds do you have to infringe on my very basic liberties that you claim to want to protect?

I'm sorry. You can't possibly claim to want to protect liberties and freedoms and in the same breath advocate severe and drastic restrictions.

You don't. It is NOT your business, and it is NOT your place to order people and businesses around. If it IS your business, fine. Otherwise, RESPECT other's rights. Do you honestly expect me to listen to you when you tell me how I should run MY corporation? No. Not in one million years. I may listen to advice, but you WILL NOT BE TELLING ME HOW TO RUN MY CORPORATION. You don't have that right, and you don't have the right to tell Microsoft what they should do. No one has that right except the shareholders.

Altruism? Who do YOU think YOU are to proclaim yourself so important that YOU should be allowed to run other's companies? Can't you understand that people, other people, put a LOT of effort, time, and money into a business, and that it is THEIR PROPERTY because it is the product of THEIR labor? WHO are YOU to come in and suddenly decide what can and can't go? YOU that put NOTHING into that company?

Ayn Rand has the following to say on atruism:

Altruism is an ethical system

. . . which regards man as a sacrificial animal, which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. . . Altruism holds death as its ultimate goal and standard of value †� and it is logical that renunciation, resignation, self-denial, and every other form of suffering, including self-destruction, are the virtues it advocates.
Ayn Rand, †œThe Objectivist Ethics,ââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚ÂÂ� The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism, 37-38


No, definitely not. If you want equal wealth for anyone, then capitalism isn't a good system. Capitalism rewards those that work harder and smarter with more wealth. In addition, it creates wealth. Socialism is a form of redistributing the wealth, but it doesn't say how you're supposed to create it. Capitalism creates wealth, socialism does not. THAT is why socialism fails as an economic model, and THAT is why I'm not a socialist.

I've incorporated my own company. I would not have done that if all my profits were seized and redistributed.

I firmly believe that there are many lazy people out there, and many people willing to slave away for hours to be able to have a higher standard of living. I firmly believe that NOT everyone should have equal wealth, unless they work equally hard to their abilities.


*shrug* Thats fine, as long as you realize then that you're basically a socialist, not someone that advocates free enterprise and capitalism.

Bull****. Here, open cmd window and type format c: [enter]. They even provide you with the means of getting rid of their software. People are NOT locked in. YOU're not using it, and THOUSANDS of others are not using it. You have a choice whether you want to use it or not. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

Because Microsoft choose to make their product that way, and if you don't like it, don't ****ing use it! It isn't a hard concept.


Wait, didn't you just say,

"hey have people so locked in to their technology"


So what will it be?




You apparently missed this post:

"Europe used to be free market, but has steadily drifted towards socialism and planned economies. What you have right now is semi-capitalism with a touch (ok more than a touch...) of planned economies."

(Post 81)

And, anti-trust laws should be repealed immediately.

So, you're encouraging "competition" by forcing Microsoft to reveal source code and prohibiting them from improving their products? You're essentially stopping Microsoft from improving so that the rest of the players, those that can't seem to make good products that people want, can catch up. In the meantime, Microsoft could have raised the notch yet one more step. Or two more. Now you have both Microsoft and the "competition" sitting down there when they could have been higher up.

Eh. No.

And that was wrong. Fortunately, the case was resolved relatively peacefully without the government putting some anti-competition rulings through.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

You say Microsoft are improving their product; I (and a lot of other people) say they are using a monopolistic market position to crush competition. Let us agree to disagree.

Again, woefully simplistic and missing the point. If we were talking about the relative merits of various media players - for example, Quicktime vs Real Player - then it would be stupid of me to claim Real ought to be penalised simply for being better than Apple, or vice versa. That is not what this is about, and it's not what a regulated competitive economy is about either. What is at issue here is that Microsoft is not just building software to run on computers, it has built the very platform that software runs on. It has a built-in advantage, therefore, as it knows how best to manufacture software to run on its own platform. I do not blame Microsoft for being in that position, nor do I begrudge them it. However I do expect that in the long-term interest of consumers, they do not abuse that advantage.

It would plainly be stupid to expect a TV company to make quality TV programmes if the television were a patented invention and no-one but the inventor was allowed to know how the darned thing works.

As a footnote, I'm not going to be persuaded of any argument simply by you quoting the ravings of Ayn Rand. So far as I can see, she is regarded as a bit of an extremist even in America. I see no reason to take her seriously.

May I draw your attention to the rantings of Chris Wolski, a Rand disciple writing in Capitalism Magazine:

As a Christian I find this attack on the virtue of self-sacrifice highly offensive. I expect others will have their own reasons for concluding that Ayn Rand and her followers are possibly unhinged.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

No, I agree that they are trying to cruch the competition. That is the idea of free enterprise. However, are you saying they are NOT improving their products by bundling free software that gives new functionality to the operating system??



Again, who are you to claim ownership over Microsoft?

Of course, we should also make it illegal for Apple to sell Quicktime with their computers.

And, Linux is not allowed to come with a file system unless it offers you the ability to choose between ext3 and NTFS.


Erm, let me think? NO.

Actually, it was patented, and the inventor choose to sell it to make money. That is why we have intellectual property laws. HOWEVER, if he chose NOT to sell it, and rather manufacture ALL television sets, that is perfectly fine too. How does TV programs relate to the hardware?

No. Because YOU can't argue against her arguments, you'd rather succumb to character assassination and attack HER. Way to go. You can't attack the source if it is an opinion. You can only attack the credibilty of the source if it is presented as impartial and unopinionated.

So because one of her followers said something you don't agree with, you attack Ayn Rand? How noble.

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

What does OSX or Linux do that Windows doesn't? (keep the "not crash" comments out of it as my PC hasn't crashed in years)

Re: Realplayer 10 released
 

There is no doubt that Microsoft Windows with a media player included is a better product than Windows without one. The reason I keep using phrases like 'short-sighted' and 'narrow-minded' is because whether it's a 'better' product in the here and now is only one concern. In the long term, allowing Microsoft to dominate to the extent that there is no competition leaves one single organisation providing all services without any effective challenge from anywhere. Doesn't sound that different than communism to me.

I don't claim ownership of them except in the way I am entitled, as a voter in a democratic society, to have a say in how things are done here. You have the same privilege - if you dislike the anti-trust laws that blight Microsoft in the States in a not dissimilar way to our European Competition Commission, it's your right to go and vote for someone pledged to repeal them. Is there any mainstream opposition to the current antu-trust laws in the USA?

Apple has got away with things that would have put Microsoft in the dock a dozen times over. On the one hand it's deeply hypocritical, but having said that, Apple doesn't have the same power to destroy an industry simply by deciding to do things in a certain way.

Linux is an operating system kernel, normally suurounded by GNU tools, even though the GNU project has long been developing a kernel of its own. Then you can choose from a range of GUIs to sit on top of it all. So anyone who uses Linux has already enjoyed far more free choice than they would be permitted by Microsoft.

However this is a bogus comparison because 1/ Linux is essentially free, and it is open source, and therefore incapable of monopolizing the market even if it were the dominant operating system; and 2/ like Apple, it isn't in a monopoly position.

I was thinking of the technical side of running a TV station rather than actually recording a programme. It would be pretty hard to make and transmit pictures without understanding how the recever wants to pick them up. But let's not spend ages on a simple analogy.

I have not attempted to put up a full rebuttal of Ayn Rand in this thread. Please don't mistake my choice not to do this with an inability to do so.

Please, the quoted source is a 'senior writer at the Ayn Rand institute'. I see nothing to convince me that they don't believe the same thing. Don't split hairs.