Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Hull University is threatening to ban a Christian Union because the CU doesn't admit non-believers to run it.

I mean, duhh!!!

http://www.christian.org.uk/pressrel...ch_30_2004.htm

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Sigh ....

I could go on at great length about this, especially as we faced the same issues when I was at University. Our solution was simple, we just refused to be affiliated to the Students' Union in the first place. It really wasn't a hardship, the funding for clubs and societies was so small it would only have paid for one or two guest speakers a year anyway.

There was no human rights Act back in the early 1990s of course, so it would have been more difficult to argue that we were being discriminated against by being denied the right to ensure the people running the CU were actually Christians. But to be honest, I think they would be better off without the Union anyway. Why on earth would a Christian society wish to be ultimately responsible to the non-Christian exec committee of the Students' Union anyway?

What I think is much sadder is the footnote - two CUs at the university, one affilliated to the Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship and one not. I think the Christians at Hull should spend more time focusing on their own unity and a little less time picking fights with the Students Union.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Why on earth would a non-believer want to run a Christian Union anyway?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Interesting. I've got to say that it sounds like typical student union overreaction and shooting themselves in the foot. However, one point: the article says, "The union would not dare tell the Muslim society that it must be run by non-Muslims." Have they any evidence for this? Could it simply be that the Muslim society constitution doesn't have a clause in it about the religious beliefs of members, in which case the attack by the Christian Union (the subject, after all, is written constitutions) is unjustified.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

The basis of Christianity is belief. Faith.

So why would/should someone who does not believe be permitted to run it? If I was part of such a Union I would have little faith (pardon the pun) in the hierachy if they were not also Christians.

Would a Man United fan be permitted to run an Arsenal supporter's club?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Ah, but I'm not arguing about that, I'm simply saying that the unsubstantiated response by the Christian Union ("they wouldn't dare attack Muslims") is, in its way, just as bad as the students union attack on the Christians.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

It depends on your definition of 'non-believer'. The UCCF has a written statement of faith which those running CUs affilliated to it are required to sign. This ensures that the CU has a consistent belief despite the fact that, being made up of students who arrive, study, graduate and leave, its membership is constantly changing and will have changed completely every three or four years.

There are plenty of churchgoing people who would very much like to run a CU, seeing as it is the singlemost recognised representative of Christianity on a university campus, but who would find it difficult to sign up to even half of the statement of faith (UCCF calls it the 'Doctrinal Basis'). We had just such a situation at Lampeter with people who had difficulty with basic articles of faith like the virgin birth and the physical resurrection. I don't propose to start a discussion in this thread about how much you have to believe in order to be a Christian, but in order to run a Christian Union whose statement of faith includes those things, you have to be a Christian who believes those things.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Your last line is my contention. As long as those in the Union sign a statement professing their Christianity then I can see no problem. If someone was not willing to do so, I'd say their reasoning would need to be studied.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

There are plenty of people who are absolutely emphatic about their religion, even though they don't believe 50% of what their religion requires. To them, they are a Christian, here is a Christian Union, why shouldn't they be its president?

I don't think there's any chance that an atheist would want to be president of the CU (the members of the CU would still have to elect them), but there is a good chance that a 'liberal Christian' would. You might want to study their reasoning for this - and good luck to you if you do, I tried for three years and never understood how someone can accept the Bible to such an extent and yet disregard parts of it at random. We had an alternative Christian society at Lampeter called the 'Student Christian Movement', which is characterised by having no common statement of belief at all. They were affiliated to the Students Union because they had no interest in preserving a permanent set of beliefs.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

It would seem to be all a bit silly. When I was at Durham there was a similar situation in which the CU was not ratified by the SU. It wasn't on the grounds of non-christians being allowed in but more the fact that the main body of the CU were such fundemental christians who refused to abide by SU rules on such things as preching (AKA hassling people in bars :) ) and pushing pamphlets under the doors of peoples rooms in halls.

I personally think that the CU at Hull shouldn't be forced to admit non-christians (ncs) as leaders, and really, how many ncs would want to? It'd be nice if they welcomed ncs for informed debate though :) Anyway, if you want to end discrimination, why not stamp out some of these 'secret' societies that some Universities seem to have first?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I read about this in a newspaper article today, and i must say, i found it pretty amusing. However, it does highlight the point of political correctness being forced on people and groups of people who are perfectly within there right to request that a group based on a belief system be allowed to have only members who beleive in that system. Yet there are others who try to force them to conform to there standards, which i dont feel is right at all.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Surely christians should welcome in non believers so that they can be evangelised to?
If the Jewish and Muslim groups allow non-believers in, I was actually suprised to see that the christians were the ones being restrictive

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

They aren't stopping non-believers from joining, they're objecting to non-believers running it, on the committee etc. In such a position, you'd need to be seen as a figure of authority and leadership, not something I think possible if the place was taken by a non-believer.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

As Russ said, anyone's free to come along - but it'd be odd if the President of the Christian Union had trouble believing in the Resurrection ... oh hang on, that's the Archbishop of Canterbury out of the running then. :disturbd:

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

The SU rules state that you can not have an exclusive group.
From what I have read, the christian group is not letting people of non christian faith join (not just preventing them running it) which is why they have come a cropper with the SU.
Now, surely the most worthy person should be leader?
If they are non christian and likely to derail the group, then how would they get voted in to lead?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Yes but most worthy in who's opinion? My view would be that the most worthy should at the very minimum be a believer. Would the Arsenal Supporter's Club allow a Manc fan on the committee?

Exactly, they are not going to be voted in, a good idea IMO. There's nothing wrong with them being part of the group if they so desire, but to be in a position of authority and not believe in the aims of the group.....no, I can't agree with that.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

They are stopping them becoming members because a member could potentially be voted into a leader ship role.
I can see why though, as christians they aren't happy about non-christians getting included, after all, isn't that what the religion is all about?
I just think it's wrong. If they are so scared that the other members would vote for someone who would be unable to lead well, then they really need to look at what's wrong with themselves, or the other members who they have no confidence in.
Still intreagues me as to how come it's the christians kicking up such a fuss about this when the other religious groups don't have a problem with it!

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I'm very surprised to hear that kind of thing come from you.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I cannot see their issue as anything other than paranoia about what non-believers are actually like.
As an athiest I have been treated worse than a satanist would (at least they believe god exists!) by some christians because of this bizarre idea that we want to corrupt everyone and lead you all astray.
If I were part of an athiest group I would have no problem voting for a religious believer as leader if I thought they were the best person for the job.
If I didn, I simply wouldn't vote for them.
I certainly wouldn't exclude believers from the group.

Put it like this russ, lets say you due to other commitments couldn't spare the time to be leader, and all the other christians in the group were halfwits and nincompoops who couldn't organise a baptism in a chapel, and there was one non-christian who you knew was fair, and respectful, and sensible and had great leadership skills and wouldn't organise brothel nights, would you really vote for a nincompoop over her?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I simply would not vote a non-believer in. Tell me this, why are there no Labour MPs in the Conservative Committee?

And putting yourself in the opposite position of being in an athiest group is a non-starter as Christians and non-believers view each other differently.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

On what grounds? Simply because they weren't a believer? Why? Expand on that reason.

As for Labour on a conservative committee, that's normally to stop the labour party nicking the tory's top ideas, but as a christian, don't you want non-believers to nick your ideas? :)

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

i think having a non believer in there would make for some very interesting philosophical debates! could be fun!! :D

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Is this a wind-up? I can't believe I need to explain this!

In a Christian movement, the basis of the whole status quo is belief. Faith. In an organisation which is based around that (such as a Christian Student Union) the leadership is expected to lead by example. It would be hypocritical for one of their committee to, for example, organise a evengelical day on campus if they themselves did not believe.

I've got to say Xac, my respect for you is rapidly flowing down the drain if that's the best you can offer.... :)

But why would a Christian Union need to have philosophical debates which in all likelihood cause in-fighting and friction? If people want to debate philosophy then fine, go do it in a collective geared up for that sort of thing! A Christian Union is there to promote Christianity, not other systems of belief.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Personally, i am not sure if i believe in the Christian teachings, i look at a lot of things from a scientific point of view, and this is often incompatible with the Christian teachings.

If i had an opportunity to debate these matters (in a mature and responsible way *not fighting*) then it may make me more keen to believe Christian teachings.

I enjoy religious debate, and i don't see what harm this would do. As far as i know, one of the Christian aims is to spread the religion, if non-Christians are not allowed to join a society they obviously have some interest in if they apply to, then how will the religion spread?? If non Christians were accepted they may convert to Christianity, and surely this would be a good thing! Keep the Christian ethos, but allow anyone to get involved, if people don't like it, they will just leave, and if they do like it they may be more keen on Christianity!

(btw that was all IMHO!! :pp)

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

You don't need to join a CU to debate Christianity.

I'm sure the members will be only too pleased to discuss anything you want but I don't see why people need to join before being able to debate.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Fair point, but would you block their membership simply because they would be able to run for leadership?


Well its true tho, labour nicks all the tory's best ideas and ruins them

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I wouldn't really care if they were in the union (although why they'd be part of it I don't know) but I certainly would not be in favour of them holding any position of leadership.

OK, moving away from the political example, why are there no Cardiff fans in the Swansea Supporter's Association?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

i actually agree with russ. I think that in a CU, someone whom is christian should lead the group. You wouldn't expect a non-believer to be a vicar/priest/elder of a church would you? why because the leader of a church is there to guide and teach people along their spiritual walk. Having a non-christian as a leader of a CU is similar. Cu's are a very basic form of church, it involves teaching and guiding of the populace of the group. I would be wary of attending a Cu which was run by a non-beliver....

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Because they don't like each other?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

:banghead:

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

:rofl: xac..think russ was using that as an analogy to show that having a football fan from one team leading another group would seem absurd ;):pp

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I don't think so, not if that person was open and understanding.
But as we've said the issue with the CU and SU isn't over leadership, it's over membership.
The SU has a rule which states you mustn't discriminate against others when it comes to membership.
The CU has a problem with this as it could possibly potentially maybe if they all voted for that person, lead to a non-christian being leader.
Something you could argue as being less likely than the second coming (think about it)

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

i am not sure i would have a problem with a non-believer being a member of the CU but if they were in a leadership role then it would run amockery of everything the group believe....yes you can teach basic biblical truths academically without any belief but when it comes to things such as teaching about the holy spirit it becomes more than academia IMO
we often had non-believers attend our CU and church meetings but if, for example, my best mate who is a non-believer (but studided theology) were to become a leader i would be uncomfortable with that

there is more to it that being "open and understanding" you can understand the basics from an academic view point but you can't understand the feeling of faith or the experiences of the holy spirit etc

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I certainly can understand them barring non-believers from membership. I've yet to be convinced why someone who does not believe would want to be part of a Christian Union. The argument that they want to find out more before committing etc falls flat because there are no doubt plenty of churches and bible study classes (especially in a city as large as Hull) where they can do that. Just about each town will have a church which will run an Alpha Course (do a google if you've not heard of it), specifically set up for people who want to know more.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

If you don't believe any non-believers would want to join, then why bother going to the effort of banning them?

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

a valid point xac.....the cu at leeds was always encouraging non-believers to attend meetings etc.... they used to hold a lot of free BBQs i seem to remember

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

See, that makes more sense to me.
Be inclusive rather than exclusive.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

yeah......especailly since half the point is meant to witness to non-believers.....but would you stretch so far as to say they should become members....membership is something quite different to simply attending

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Doesn't membership just show them that they are welcome and valued?
Denying that makes out the members think they are somehow better and above non-members

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

no......within most christian groups (the ones i have attended anyway) to be welcomed and valued you do not have to be a member...... membership just means that you will serve the community(the church/the CU whatever) it is about standing up in faith...as far as i see it

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I'd say only the cynical would hold that opinion.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

I didn't say I didn't believe they've join, I said I don't know why they'd want to.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Out of interest, how do you define a "non-believer"?? Is there a test? Do you have to walk over hot coals or something?

Surely there are varying degrees of belief, like Towny said earlier some people only believe parts of the bible, can they only become part time member/leaders??

This non-believer is very confused about it all :dunce:

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

A believer is someone who believes Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected by God, that sort of thing....

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Christianity has been around for 2,000 years but no-one seriously challenged doctrines like the resurrection and virgin birth until the last 100 years or less.

Because such core beliefs are no longer taken for granted, many churches and other Christian organisations have taken to writing down what they believe and requiring everyone who actively participates in their activities to 'sign up' to them. Now, it may well be possible to be a 'true believer', yet for whatever reason have trouble accepting certain parts of the faith. Such people are excluded from leadership in these situations not because someone else wants to make a simplistic judgement about whether they are a believer or not, but because the church/organisaion/CU has made a decision that it holds to a certain set of beliefs, and that set of beliefs is to be maintained.

An 'Evangelical' Christian Union has to have some way of remaining evangelical despite the fact that, due to University courses only lasting 3 or 4 years, its membership in 2004 is almost entirely changed from what it was in 2000.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

So how does that differ to someone who doesn't believe any part of it?? Neither are allowed to be leaders but part believers are allowed to become members. I'm not trying to be funny, but the criteria all seem a little wishy washy, sign a form and you're a believer?? :shrug:

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

You don't sign and suddenly you're a believer, you sign to signify something that you already believe. You're right, it's far from perfect, but what's the alternative? Until God decides to put some kind of flag on his people's heads so we can see who's a believer and who isn't, we have to make do with second best. And signing something is generally accepted as a legitimate way of committing yourself to something in our society.

At least in a church you have a settled, long-term membership and established leaders. In such circumstances it's easier to tell who truly 'belongs' - over a period of time your words, actions and your whole lifestyle speak volumes about your attitudes and priorities in life. As I've been saying all along, University CUs don't have the benefit of age or experience.

Re: Hull uni bans Christian Union
 

Good grief, did you not do any history?
;)