Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

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Re: Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

Yep, I was just about to post this :shocked:

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Wouldn't surprise me if they'd had a few lessons from Irish Republican dissidents, fertiliser mix was their speciality, especially on the mainland, Docklands for example.

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Looks like MI-5/Scotland yard have won again. Good job boys/girls. We can't keep riding our luck forever avoiding an attack, but while we keep raiding and seizing hopefully we'll keep postponing it.

Its true what they say, British Security Services are the best.

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off topic but i been brainwashed with alias/24/west wing ..what we need is a TV show about the UK Govt/anti terror/Special services groups..

or maybe we aint as exciting as the americans :)

Re: Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

Nah, the reason both have used this is because its cheap, easy to get hold of and very powerfull in large quantities. The London Docklands bomb was down to a Ford Transit of this stuff.

[Heh! The Fox story actually links upto an online shop where you can buy the ingredients for the bomb, point proved.]

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I thought it was a car transporter? Anyhoo, if they'd have started cooking it down in any residential area, people would soon notice the smell.

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Very, very true mate. You dont need to be a chemist to make and IED from Amoniun Nitrate fertalizer. Though if you want a bigger bang for you're buck I would suggest adding Alumimium. This will increase the explosive power by a factor of about three if I remember my dem's course correctly. :cool:

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More good news:

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after my abortive attempt in my own thread :dunce: , i say it is a good result , i just hope there isnt anymore kicking about :Yikes:

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"The **** nearly hit the fan that time!"


:groan:

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That would actually be a good idea, especially for preparing the public for any attacks they might miss, giving a better idea of how hard it is to beat the terrorist every time.
Something with a really good ongoing plot rather than just one attack per episode where they stop the bomb just in time for the end credits.

Re: Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

Bombs are relativly easy to make, a little background info on explosives is here and here :)

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Don't we have enough of a terrorism scare as it is? The last thing we need is for the 'entertainment industry' to get involved. :erm:

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depends how its done.
The second series of 24 was about terrorism wasn't it? (sort of) with a killer virus being threatened to be let loose

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Sorry, I didn't see 24. Yes, it depends on how it's done. I just don't want to see one of those shows that liberally mixes fact and fiction and portrays it as reflecting practice/real life. I don't think this is the right time that when it comes to the type of terrorism this thread is about...

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Its ok, nor did I, never could get into it.

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This might be a bit pedantic, I know, but I thought i'd mention it anyway. That was the third season (the one currently playing), that has the virus. The second one contains a nuclear bomb, and (this might sound familiar to some :)) an oil exec who wants to start a war in the middle east to get cheap, seized oil. The first one if anyone is interested is basically an assasination attempt at a presidential candidate, and a personal one against Jack.

We had Spooks which is basically our version of 24. I watched it, and it was interesting enough at times, but it wasn't as good/exciting as 24. That'll be Hollywood for you. I miss my Pure 24... And my Tamzin Sylvester...

I'm not entirely sure that TV has that much of an effect on people to be honest. I mean, after Season 2, I don't think Americans were anymore worried about nuclear bombs than before the show.

I think subliminally it could help actually. If we get bombarded with a TV show every week, that shows Al Qaeda gradually getting cut down, and various other Islamic fundamentalists being taken out of commission, it could be propaganda that could bolster morale somewhat, although i'm sure race relations groups would have a field day with us costantly blaiming muslims (although they are the biggest clear threat atm.). I think a gritty drama series about an attack could be supported with a lesson in protecting yourself against an attack (taping up windows, have a supply of bottle water, etc.). Unlike in America, I think if here, we started putting help of that sort on the TV, people really would get worried that the security serviceswere warning us about an immient attack.

Dellware: those links were broken for me. But we have all seen the various versions of the Anarchist's Cookbook online haven't we... That doesn't help much. :disturbd:

--Resident 24 Guru

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I agree that muslim fundamentalism (you didn't single out fundamentalists) is the biggest threat atm, but I find this 'us against them attitude' a little worrying.

And that is precisely the type of mass panic I would like to see avoided.

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i see bad things happening, im sure alot of people think muslims could be terrorists even though they might be law abiding citizens.

im quite suprised that the police have found and 'rumbled' so many attacks but eventually one will get through its an inevitability, when and where no one will know........

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I'm afraid I have to agree with both statements... :(

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i wish it wasent true but its, its just going to stir things up, the constant news stories about 'muslims' or 'foreginers' taking part in terrorist action, its quite revolting because it signifies an intent by the media to portray people in a bad light, people will treat others 'diffarently' because of these reports.

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Err.. Yeah I did. Second line in that quote. "Al Qaeda and other islamic fundamentalists". Actually, that should read terrorists. People can be fundamentalist, even to the point of preaching hate, without actually participating acts of terror.

Trouble is mate, When it does happen (and it will eventually), if noone is prepared, then the mass panic will be amplified. Forewarned is forearmed, and all that. Apparently, when we ran that terrorist attack drill at Bank station, we all did terrible. I think everyone should know what to do well in advance, but it would be tricky to get it out into the public domain, without people assuming there will be an attack the next day. I think the government missed a prime opportunity with that terrorist attack drill.

In America (although I haven't seen it recently when I was last over there), Tom Ridge used to come on TV quite a lot and gave people sound advice to prepare for an attack. Nothing to paranoia-inducing, just sensible advice to minimise personal injury.

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Actually they were centered on Immanuel and Afred Nobel (famed for their prizes) and why explosives work, not so much how to make them, does that "help", perhaps not but still a little more on topic than which series of 24 was which :rolleyes:

I'll look at the links tomorrow I'm too tired now. :sleep:

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I suppose it depends on which media you read/watch, but so far I have not seen an intent to portray muslims/foreigners in a bad light. I share your concerns though.

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Sorry mate, that "Doesn't help much" wasn't directed at you, or your post. I meant the Anarchists Cookbook doesn't really help (ie in the fight against terror), as it is freely available, and I hear, quite detailed. Sorry.

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i have not seen the media in these reports, but in previous occasions CH5 skynews BBC news all kept on going on about so many muslims being aressted and you wonder why race relations are even more strained.

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Ah, sorry, you did, though it was a bit implicit in your later mention of muslims.

I have nothing against informing the public. I just wonder if a drama series (liberally mixing fact and fiction) is the right way to do it.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I italicized intent in my earlier post. I don't think there is necessarily an intent to portray muslims/foreigners in a bad light (in the serious media anyway).

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To be honest mate, if the government ministers appeared on your TV today, tomorrow, or any other time, just to say how to protect yourself, wouldn't you think: "Why are they telling me this now?", at some random point some 3 years after 9/11? I'd think they knew something specific and I guess most other people would. Smuggling it in under the guise of a drama, would make people think: oh they just thought it was a good time to include it. If they were going to run an ad campaign without a drama series to back it up, then they should of attached it to some aniversary. like once a year after 9/11 or something. Without some "excuse" to get it out, I doubt you could warn people without them getting worried.

I really think there should be more education though. Attaching to something I think would be the only way to get it out without worrying people unnecessarily.

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Fair point about attaching it to something, but the hunt for ratings may cause the factual info to be attached to the liberal fiction. I think that should be avoided.

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My bad it was late, I just assumed it was aimed at me.

:Peaceman:

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So rather than tell us what to do late, its better not to tell us at all??

Does not sound logical to me.

What would you be doing if a bomb went off near you?
Panic'ing or rushing round with the 1st aid kit?
Gicen the lack of what to do info thats been handed out, thats about all I can think of doing.

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Where kilroy got it wrong was he said all muslims are terrorists, what he should of said was 'not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims'. its not a nice thing to say, however, it is fact, and it is this fact which breeds mistrust among peoples.

Secondly, really, theres no way you can prepare for a terror attack, you can do everything possible to prevent one, primarly be vigilant and rely on our security forces, who have had plenty practice thanks to the likes of the IRA, but thats about all i can see you doing. There's no way to prepare for someone leaving there house as they do every morning, getting on the train to work like they always do, then blowing themselves up with a pile of semtex strapped to them instead of getting of at there usual station.

The only other thing to do, would be stop getting on trains and planes and busses, or leaving your house, 'just incase' something was going to blow up. But then, if we did that, then they have won. We lived under the threat of the IRA for decades, and although this threat is greater as the IRA were primarly a civilised bunch after bloody sunday and the like, and started to call in where the bombs were so civilians could be evacuated. But we still continued our day to day buisness, it is no different now, different war, same threat, and we should not let ourselves cower like the savages want to see us doing.

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I think that's not quite as accurate as you portray it. Many terrorists that we hear about *now* may be Muslims is a fact, but there have been many terrorist groups in the past that have no connection with Islam.

Also the word "terrorism" tends to mask the fact that these people are, by their lights, fighting a war against the West, but since they don't have the tanks and bombers etc that we have, they are fighting in the only way available to them.

That is not, of course, to say that I approve of their tactics, but, by the same token, I don't approve of the tactics that we in the West have used either!

Unfortunately we tend to get things shown to us in a very black and white way, we're the good guys, they're the baddies, what we do is right, what they do is wrong, but the fact of the matter is that things aren't as simple as that and just because we disagree with them doesn't mean we have the automatic right to step in and change things to our liking.

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True, there is not much you can do to prepare for, or deal with a conventional attack, with just explosives, other than vigilance, and offering first aid. What we need preparation for is an unconventional attack. Something like a dirty bomb or chemical/biological attack. That Macintyre bloke did a test on some strangers of what they would do if they were at a building hit by a poision gas attack, and they just made things worse by spreading it. I'm certainly not sure what i'm supposed to do anyway. Cover my mouth and run away from the bomb site in the direction. (I don't think there is anything non-medical personal to help, you have to let the emergency services do it with respirator kits. do it.). I know from America that you are supposed to have a 1 weeks supply of fresh bottled water, and you have to tape up your windows/vents in the event of attack.

The trouble is, after 9/11, the next terrorist attack to succeed in America, (and even here), would logically be even more extreme the last time, which would indicate an unconventional attack. Any rate, their actions can't really be predicted and it woul be best if you prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Acting Suspeciously
 

Fox News Opinion on acting suspeciously

What to you is acting suspeciously enough to warrant reporting?

Re: Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

I would have thought that the best anti terror-tactic is to just get on with life.If we change our way of life too much to accomodate might be's then we have allowed them to win.

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You mean like the Spanish changing their goverment?

[edit: the cookbook only stated what was allready being taught in Chemistry lessons anyway. It was just put differently...]

Re: Acting Suspeciously
 

Personally I have to wonder if that event even took place. It sounds more like a witch hunt to me...

But frankly, I wouldn't know what suspiciously enough is...

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The Spanish voted in an election, and that resulted in the ruling party being ousted. The socialist party then announced they would do what they'd been saying for over a year: take the troops out of Irag, as the previous government had supported the war despite an overwhelming majority of the population being against it.

Now I'm not saying that is a wise or right decision considering the circumstances, but I do think you simplify matters a little too much.

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I simplyify things only for the benefit of communication, what i meant was their was a radical shift in government right after major terrorist activity. some may say it acheived the desired effect

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Im not saying there is a right or wrong, and your right in saying that most terrorists in the past probably were not muslim in origion, however, over the recent years, and as globalisation occurs with western ideals and philiosophies becomming more dominant thorugh tv and the internet and communication, the whole conept of Islam has become threatened, as there belief systems can be judged as very archaic by some. As well as the newer generations of Muslim come more into contact with the west, and want to share in western culture. I work with two muslims at work, one goes out and drinks, but hides this from her parents as it is frowned upon, she entered into an arranged marriage where she was abused by her husband, until finally she could take no more and left, which was frowned upon by her family and her community. But it is because she has become more westernised and lived in this country all her life. The other, is a full on Muslim, who prays at all the correct times of the day, has never touched a drop of alcholol in her life and frowns upon the actions of the other one but is much older, married with three children. It is this mixture of cultures which makes them feel so threantened as the west destorys there religion by doing nothing more than existing and influencing the younger generation.

However, as much as they may feel threatened by this, i do not see how they can justifiy a war against us. You might say well we invaded afganistan and iraq, but that was in response to an atrocity against innocent civilians of a magnitude never seen for many decades.

What tatics do you not approve of that we have used in the west, bearing in mind that everything that has happened over the past two-three years has been in response to the slaughter of over 5000 innocent men, women and children by fanatical muslim fundementalist terror groups who have a self stlyed holy war against anything or anyone which does not conform to there beliefs?

I admit the media these days, although independant, is often used as a tool of propaganda. And i know for a fact there are a myriad of reasons that we are in the position we are in today, but at know point do we try and change something because it is different to us, or try and exterminate it to the last man women and child. We may 'step in' but if only to stop those that actually try to do the above, its called a sense of morality, something terrorists have lost a long time ago. Maybe it is our sense of morality which they fight against, as our laws are built on religious beliefs and rulings from as early as 400AD. But you cannot tell me that when we try to stop people killing others, we are wrong to do so?

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I can agree with all of this.

But the point about, for instance, Iraq is that, as has now been well demonstrated, Saddam had *nothing* to do with September 11th which was one of the excuses for the invasion and it is widely seen by Muslim countries as simply an attempt by the West to increase their power in the region and to undermine Islamic cultures.

More to the point, big sections of the media are quite content to play that role voluntarily. Fox News comes to mind...

I'm sorry, but I think you need to take a closer look at colonial history and the rise of Western power over the past two or three hundred years, not to mention events such as the Crusades.

We are quite content, when it suits our purpose, to support "Terrorists" (sorry, we like them, so that should probably be "Freedom Fighters") eg Columbia, Nicaragua, Cuba etc. We are happy to supply weapons (including those of mass destruction: Rumsfeld/ Saddam) to questionable regimes (Chile, Indonesia, assorted African states) or do business with countries that have deplorable human rights records (China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia), not to mention being happy to overlook or stay out of conflicts or countries that have no interest or use to us etc.

To portray us as "White Hats" or "Good Guys" whilst ignoring these facts is to blind oneself to the truth.

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They have arrested a ninth person today abt this as well

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackage...1&section=news

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All very true. I guess its just upsetting when people bring there wars to your doorstep. Hell, we were slaughtering people in foreign lands at the turn of the centurary even, when we looked on ourselves as more superiour. I guess that feeling still exists today, however, Britian has never bred terrorists or engaged in acts of terrorism (i know, possibly not a true statement, as our goverment is the most secrative in the world). But we have always fought our wars as gentlemen and not crept in the shadows blowing ourselves up around civilians.

Re: Explosive Fertiliser Found in Terrorist Raid
 

And even more so when it *is* "our war"...

Would a "gentleman" suggest using chemical weapons against "turbulent tribes"?

http://www.againstbombing.org/chemical.htm

"On 19 February, 1920, before the start of the Arab uprising, Churchill (then Secretary for War and Air) wrote to Sir Hugh Trenchard, the pioneer of air warfare. Would it be possible for Trenchard to take control of Iraq? This would entail 'the provision of some kind of asphyxiating bombs calculated to cause disablement of some kind but not death...for use in preliminary operations against turbulent tribes.'

"Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire): 'I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.'"

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Very worryingly, ABC News has reported that the terrorists arrested a few days ago in London wern't just planng a bomb, it was a chemical attack. They planned to use "Osmodium Tetraoxide", which apparently is very nasty.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040405-1.html

And also:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3603961.stm

ABC News alledges to have good, credible sources inside the Met Police. On Capital Radio, the police are refusing to comment about it.

Doesn't make for good reading does it.... :disturbd:

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very scary i am afraid :(

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Phew, Lucky it was stopped though.

Like some Terrorist once said "you need to be lucky all the time, we need to be lucky once"

The succesfull attack is coming be it a few days, weeks, months or even years we WILL be attacked and dispite what the terrorists say its nnot because of iraq or anything else. Terrorists dont give a dam about peoples freedom be it iraqi's or british people

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another link to the story , when something like this happens you start to realise how close it is to something really nasty happening :(

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Very true. One of my patients is an anti-terrorist expert/advisor (works for "the crown" :erm: ). He is of the opinion that it will happen and is just a matter of time and there is not a lot that we can do about it :(

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and that is looking more and more likely i'm afraid :(

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3612737.stm

Five have been charged for terrorist related activities and 2 have been released on bail