community service
 

just seen this , and why not , imho there should be a lot more of this , instead of slaps on wrists and promises to be good , chain gangs might be a good idea , pity the dogooders would complain about them being inhumane :mad:

Re: community service
 

Not me!I reckon that it will do them a world of good and make everyone else feel better about the society they live in. I believe in this form of punishment as some hard physical good comes out of it and the persons concerned get to be really useful in their spare time.

A local prison has a scheme where the inmates do up and repair old wheelchairs that are supplied out to third world and developing countries.
I'd far rather see this happen than someone sat in a cell 23 hours out of 24.How does that help someone to change their view point?

Incog. :)

Re: community service
 

People chained together? Yes, I would call that inhumane and have a problem with it. However I have absolutely no problem and think it's a damn good idea for people convicted of offences like that to be punished by being made to perform beneficial services for the community.

Re: community service
 

so you think a chain gang is a bad idea then :confused:

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We are too soft on them :disturbd: you do the crime,you serve the time,the hard way :D

Re: community service
 

your not wrong there :tu:

Re: community service
 

I think people performing community sevice as part of punishment, like cleaning grafitti, canal clearing etc, is a good idea and is beneficial to everyone. I think chaining people up, as in a chain gang, while they are doing it...is a very bad idea.

Re: community service
 

fair play , i wasnt having a go at you , i was just confirming your post :)

Re: community service
 

Why? :confused:

Re: community service
 

Chain gangs are a great idea in principle. If you had a choice between having a prisoner locked up and on his bed 22 hours a day, and him actually doing something useful. Think of all the cleaning up jobs that don't get done because we can't afford to pay people to do it?

The chain thing isn't inhumane, as it just makes sense security wise, but what you do have to be careful is that it isn't too punishing on the body. In the US, they take it a bit far, and they have to work 12-14 hours a day, (and in some places, in 90 degree temperatures, high humidty), with little water, rest and food. So long as the prisoners health and physical wellbeing is preserved, i'm all for it.

Re: community service
 

NP, I should have been clearer first time :)

Because I don't think demeaning people and treating people like animals like that is any way to go about things, no matter how much they behave like animals. I think community service is a great way for people to make amends and is a suitable punishment that fits in with my beliefs on rehabilitation. In my opinion, demeaning people by chaining them up would only negate all of the beneficial aspects of community service as punishment.

Re: community service
 

and that is a very reasoned argument :tu:

Re: community service
 

Is it really that economic though? Consider the costs of transporting the labourers to the site, supervising and guarding, even the beaurocrat who decides where they are going to go, plus the inevitable health and safety admin risk assesment team (if someone got hurt there'd be hell to pay).

Ultimately the real importance here is that anyone given a punishment, knows it is a punishment. To achieve that there needs to be a level of inconvenience and hardship. The namby pamby stuff that frequently serves as comunity service is often just laughed off by the offender.

BTW, where in the article in the original link does it say the offenders will be chained up while doing their hard labour :confused:

Re: community service
 

Good point. True, it isn't totally free considering all the wages, but I think that even if the work was subbed out to a professional cleaning company, although it would be cheaper, there would be a less overall worth to it. As you said, prisoners should be punished and not given cushy ride.

Noone said they would, but in America, they almost always are. If prisoners here took up forced labour, then logically they would need to be chained up, although i'm sure human rights groups would be against it.

The article though doesn't talk about escape-risk prisioners though, but non-custodial sentences. The kids aren't supposed to be locked up, and so can't techniocally escape.

Re: community service
 

I can go with that :tu:

Re: community service
 

Why?

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Unless your into S&M, I think the answer should be obvious.

Re: community service
 

a tricky one, so are we going to consider the mentality of the teens in question ?

is someone going to suggest we do a 'softly softly' approach to 'rehabilitating' these teens ?

what drove them to do such things ?

psychiatric help ?

teens who are 'too young' to understand because of there habitual drinking lifestyles ? personally i would throw the book at them, jail time for you lot.........

Re: community service
 

Well I am, but thats beside the point. The answer is not actually obvious to me, so you have to do better than that.

Re: community service
 

Well, given my obviously liberal opinions, it should be obvious why I feel that chaining prisoners up is inhumane ;)

Inhumane - lacking pity or compassion.

I do feel pity for criminals, that's not pity for them because they have been caught and punished but pity for the fact that they either felt a crime was necessary or that they thought it was okay to commit a crime (that's my thoughts on what is a crime and what isn't, which isn't the same as that stated by law). It is my belief that chaining people up lacks compassion and to reiterate what I said earlier, if you treat people without compassion and more like animals, you damage the rehabilatory aspects of punishment...if you treat people like animals, they are more likely to behave like animals.

Re: community service
 

Not sure about the whole "chain gang" side of this - I cerainly agree with the notion of making the offenders do hard physical work that brings a benifit to the community that they have harmed...

The old/american (we don't have them, per se, in the uk) idea of chaining a load of convicts together and making them break rocks for no other reason than they are told to is, to my mind, barbaric, inhumane, demeaning and pointless...
Criminals do not learn respect for their fellow man by being treated in this way, what they learn is that they had better not get caught next time.

Taking a group of teenagers who got drunk and started their own mini-riot and forcing them to make ammends by doing unpaid work within the community is, IMO, the best way to deal with them.
Putting them in jail may make them decide never to do such a thing again, but it may just make them think - ah well, if thats all I get - then I'll carry on.. Or worse they could end up learning more about criminal life and start moving forward in the criminal scheme of things.
Forcing them to do the types of task they are likely to get as part of their community service (tend to include canal cleaning and other physically hard and messy jobs) will hopefully make them consider those around them, whilst avaiding a custodial sentance will leave them at the mercy of their parents and other family figures who are likely to be key in helping them to choose the correct path for the remainder of their lives.

Just my 2c ;-)

Re: community service
 

I see nothing wrong with it. Its not hurting them and it prevents them from running away or escaping.

Re: community service
 

Jerrek, we're not talking about "hardened villians" here. We're not talking about murderers or rapists or child molesters, we're talking about often teenagers who have had too much to drink and got out of hand or sprayed graffiti on walls, ie *MINOR* offences.

So *why* are they going to "run away or escape" (isn't that a tautology?!). Where are they going to go? Are they going to spend their life on the run? Is there really any *NEED* to chain them up?

They could quite easily be "tagged" with GPS transponders if you wanted to know where they were. There's no need to chain them like animals.

Re: community service
 

All you voiced is your opinion that it isn't necessary. Perhaps. You made no argument against it though.

Re: community service
 

Yes- these are minor offences (although physically attacking police officers and damaging public property is more than "minor" IMO).

I agree - in this case they are not under a custodial sentance, and can return home at the end of their working period.


Even this may be more than required in this case - after all, they have had no restrictions placed on their ability to move about in society.



In the case of hardened criminals, then maybe more would be required, as they would probably see an advantage to a life on the run, as opposed to a life in a prison cell. However we are discussing teenagers here - not hardened criminals....

Re: community service
 

Oh good grief, Jerrek, don't start that again...!! :rolleyes:

Look: Years ago we used to have criminals secured with a ball and chain around their ankle. We long ago decided that it wasn't necessary. What this seems to propose is a return to that sort of thing without a good reason.

Now if there *isn't* a good reason for doing something *why* do it?

Re: community service
 

We still use it over here...

And I already mentioned the good reason. It prevents them from running away.

Re: community service
 

And so *we* should do it too???

And I have already demonstrated that this is *not* a good reason.

Re: community service
 

Jerrek - just because you still use it, does not mean it is the right thing to do....

We have got rid of the death penalty, chain gangs and the like - other countries have not.. That is their right, as it is our right to disagree.....

In this case - the people involved will be returning to their own homes at the end of their work - they will be able to live relatively normal lives (apart from doing the community service, and getting serious grief from their parents :naughty: ) - there is no incentive for them to run away..

In fact, after 1 session when they were chained up, I feel fairly certain that they would be less than willing to return for the next session (and would therefore end up with a custodial sentance) as they would (IMO rightly) feel that prison is less demeaning than the other option they were given.. :(

I am not going to get into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of various countries penal codes and systems. This thread is about the use of community service as a form of punishment - not whether other countries have better/worse methods.. :angel: