US Veto Again
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3570651.stm

Why do the US always stick up for Israel, when will they learn :shrug:

Re: US Veto Again
 

Wasn't the dead man involved with a terrorist group? :confused:

Re: US Veto Again
 

:rolleyes:

To be honest what choice do they have Israel aren't the best nation for holding up human rights are they. They build a wall to keep people out, but they STEAL the palestinian land at the same time. They go into palestinian towns with tanks and helicoptors and kill lots of people. They need stopped and the US need to stop sponsoring them

Re: US Veto Again
 

damn right

Re: US Veto Again
 

The Israel/Palestine question is a large kettle of worms.

There will not be peace until Israel pull out of the occupied territories.

A creation of a Palestinian state is also preferable.

Americas blind support for Israel is their undoing, a lot of the worlds problems would be over if we sort this mess out.

Re: US Veto Again
 

who do the israelis buy millitary hardware from?

Re: US Veto Again
 

I would imagine that a large part of it is to do with the fact that the US would adopt the same tactics if it suited their purpose. Probably a bit awkward to pass a security council resolution condeming something you would do yourself.

Re: US Veto Again
 

So why just not vote?!?

I believe thats what the UK did, there is no reason to veto it!

Re: US Veto Again
 

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a powerful Jewish lobby in US politics. The US seems to support Israel unless there is absolutely no chance of getting out of it. If they can find an excuse to veto a resolution condemning Israel, they will.

Re: US Veto Again
 

Fine words but it is, nevertheless, a terrorist group and he was a member. Anyhow, the US seem to have a beef with it because of this:

Re: US Veto Again
 

So why are the Israel's not classed as terrorists?!? They do far worse things, this will never stop unless the US stop backing them

Re: US Veto Again
 

Excuse me? Do they send 14 year old suicide bombers? I find myself wondering who started the Israel/Palestine business....who cast the first stone?
edit-- just found this : http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ind..._war_start.php
(I don't know how biased or not it is)

Re: US Veto Again
 

Um lets see:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~johannj/net_stuff/know1.jpg

http://home.cogeco.ca/~johannj/net_stuff/know2.jpg


Why can't I have a synagogue in Mecca?

Why can't I kiss boys on the streets of Damascus?

Why can't women travel free without a consort or his permission in Libya?

Why is it that I can be legally executed in most middle eastern nations for something I've done with another guy?


Israel also don't discriminate against women. In Israel, there is no censorship of the press. Opposition parties are legal. Homosexuality is legal. In fact, Israel has laws against hate crimes against homosexuals. Honor killing is OUTLAWED in Israel! 93% of women in Israel can read. Want to comare how many can read in Jordan? (*cough* 21.6%) What about freedom to criticize religion (Israel you can). Or complete academic and artistic freedom? Or free entry of foreign arts, books, and the press?

Hint: Isreal is the clear winner in terms of respecting civil and human rights. Unless, of course, you want to prove otherwise. What rights do Syria respect that Israel does not respect? What rights do Jordan and Libya respect that Israel doesn't respect?



Some more food for thought:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/03/01/world/eqypt040301


For homosexual Palestinians, Israel is their best shot at safety
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.a...ntcategoryid=1

'Death threat' to Palestinian gays
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2826963.stm

Palestinian Gay Runaways Survive on Israeli Streets
http://www.gaypasg.org/Press%20Clipp...%20Streets.htm



Get real.

Re: US Veto Again
 

that's a big post!

Re: US Veto Again
 

They killed an old man in a wheel chair outside a church with an airstrike, I think you can appreciate why people are angry.

Of course such methods are worthy of a terrorist :erm:

Re: US Veto Again
 

and if that person was osama bin laden?

Re: US Veto Again
 

Agreed.

I find it hard to take sides in this continuing conflict. However, if I were to sympathise more with one group,at this time, it would be the Palestinians.

But over the course of the past 45 years both sides have been guilty of Murder and Terror. At the moment Israel have the upper hand and military might and there will be no peace unless Israel want it. I don't think they want it

This is not the same as the situation with Al-Qaeda, the Palastinians can be negotiated with. They were close a few years ago, if they really wanted it that bad they could achieve it.

Re: US Veto Again
 

Pardon me, but if an old man in a wheel chair killed my brother, I would still want him dead. So no, I can't quite see why people get all upset.

Yep. I agree.

Re: US Veto Again
 

Nah Israel dont send 14 year old suicide bombers to Palistinian towns..............


........ they send gun ships and tanks and heavily armed soldiers that dispise the populations and have some kind of itchy alergic reactions incidently on their trigger fingers.

They shoot people in the street for throwing rocks.

Make sme think of Northern Ireland in the 60's and 70's massacres galore.
However the palistinians need to learn that blowing themselves up in croweded Israeli streets is not going to make **** all difference

Re: US Veto Again
 

"There will be no peace in Israel as long as they [Palestinians] continue to hate us more than they love their children."

This "occupation" thing is a myth. There is no occupation. There has never been a state of Palestine. If you want to call this an occupation, why did they never take up arms against Jordanian occupation a few decades ago? BECAUSE THERE IS NO OCCUPATION.

I must say, I find it quite amusing how my big post just quieted everyone down.

Re: US Veto Again
 

but if the man was a member of a terrorist group then surely he should have been arrested and put on trial - rather than killed via a state authorised assasination?

was he given the option to surrender?


surely the methods used to kill him are just as bad as the methods used by the terrorists?

and as we're speaking of terrorists - if Israel has such a problem with terrorism then why is Arial Sharron in a position of power?

considering his history of involvement in terrorism I think it's bit rich for Israel to have an ex terrorist who murdered arabs running their country and then complain about terrorism from the very people that Arial took pleasure is killing when he was an active terrorist.

Re: US Veto Again
 

There is nothing wrong with a state authorized assassination. Had he been an Israeli citizen it might be different. But, Israel has no jurisdiction in that area so laws don't apply there. A state authorized assassination was warrented.

Explain to me how preserving his life would have been beneficial to society.

Re: US Veto Again
 

if this mans crimes were against Israel then they would have had every right to pick him up and try him in Israel.


"there is nothing wrong with state authorised assasination"
- there is when there is the option of a fair trial where a person has the right to defend himself.

Re: US Veto Again
 

Then, a person committing a crime in the United States and escaping to the United Kingdom can be arrested by the United States military, on the streets, in the United Kingdom?

No. Absolutely not. I disagree completely with what you're advocating.

Who will the jury be? Wise up, sir.

Re: US Veto Again
 

U like saying that dont ya? Always when someones willing to disagree with you.

Re: US Veto Again
 

we are talking Israel here not UK/USA - a different situation. wise up yourself! a better comparison would be UK troops heading into Ireland to pick up a terrorist ring leader.


anyway here's some interesting info on mr Sharron:-

http://www.sierratimes.com/02/04/07/dantre.htm

Re: US Veto Again
 

http://electronicintifada.net/forref...es/sharon.html

"As commander of the notorious Unit 101, Sharon led attacks on Palestinian villages in which women and children were killed.

The massacre in the West Bank village of Qibya, on October 14, 1953, was perhaps the most notorious. His troops blew up 45 houses and 69 Palestinian civilians -- about half of them women and children -- were killed.

The U.S. Department of State issued a statement on 18 October 1953, expressing its "deepest sympathy for the families of those who lost their lives" in the Qibya attack as well as the conviction that those responsible "should be brought to account and that effective measures should be taken to prevent such incidents in the future." (Department of State Bulletin, Oct. 26, 1953, p. 552). "

Re: US Veto Again
 

ok about 2 years ago i remember seeing TV pictures of a young boy and his dad being shot at by Israel fprces they were trying to hide so they wouldn't die but the soldiers kept shooting, finally they killed both of them in front of the worlds media.

*shakes head*

But I guess you think thats ok do you?


Or this and the solider only faces charges after the British Goverment get involved and for aggravated assault. WTF try murder!!!

try reading the below link, hardly an act of a country with good human rights record is it ?

http://www.zmag.org/content/print_ar...7&sectionID=22

Re: US Veto Again
 

Jury could be a international one.

Anyway arent you the person who watchs Fox news because you think its more impartial than the bbc? LOL

Quite odd though its usually france who love to use their veto

Re: US Veto Again
 

Perhaps people are just tired of your empty and selective rhetoric...

Re: US Veto Again
 

Actually he was killed by his own people but no one listened. And if you want I'll find the evidence.

Re: US Veto Again
 

And another thing I want to say is that when someone accuses of Israel destroying houses willy nilly, that isn't the case at all. What really happens is that the Hamas Terrorists come to you and say we're taking your house and use it as a base and you and ur family must stay as "protection". If u decided that u do not want to be part of it, tough, we'll start executing your family members such as wives and children. So when the Israeli soldiers try and get to the terrorist, unfortunately sometimes the family gets in the way. And the houses are destroyed to stop it being used again. Of course most media and pro arab ppl will not report on it cos most of the time the family too frightened to say anything.

Just like the man next door to your is too frightened to say that crack dealers have taken over his house and deals from there and the police arrest him and the others through no fault of his own.

Re: US Veto Again
 

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publi...estruction.asp

Re: US Veto Again
 

When I was very much younger I wholeheartedly supported Israel and I sneered at Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda for their support of the Palestinian's cause.However I did not know HOW the Israeli state came about.
As time has gone on and I've learned how that happened and I've seen the way in which the Israeli government have time and time again taken more and more extremist actions against the Palestinians I've begun to wonder just who is the terrorist in this situation.The Israelis come down hard on the Palestinians and then Hammas comes back much stronger and then the whole tit for tat just escalates further and further down a bloody path of violence.

Maybe if the Israelis do build themselves into a fortess there may be a breathing space.I don't hold out much hope of it though.

There is much wrong on both sides and it is not going to bring any peace to the area until both sides acknowledge that both sides have done much to be ashamed of.Until they can face up to the fact that playing the blame game will not stop the violence.There can be no unilateral disarmament and both sides have to come to the table in good faith to sort out any kind of peace.

I don't think it will happen in my lifetime UNLESS we get a US president who will stand up to the lobbyists and a UN that WILL insist on troops being deployed to stop any conflicts.

Left to themselves both sides will never see peace at this rate.

And all the while the situation festers the war on terrorism seems doomed to failure.

Re: US Veto Again
 

:tu:

Re: US Veto Again
 

Wise words!

Re: US Veto Again
 

I agree - Incog, I think you summed it up brilliantly, firstly, the description of your evolution from idealism to pragmatism & secondly the 'much blame on both sides' paragraph.

Isn't enough, actually 'enough', quite right, Incog - can't they stop playing this 'blame game' and start a real peace process. :shrug:

Re: US Veto Again
 

The UK abstained from voting.



Actually, I think most of the current pro-Israel pressure on the US government comes from the Christian Right. The Bush Administration listens to them as that is where BushCo gets the bedrock of its support from.

But, yes, AFAIK the US has historically vetoed pretty much any UNSC resolution that was critical of Israel.


Actually, Russia is the country to have exercised the most UN Security Council vetoes (most of them when it was still the USSR)

2nd place goes to the US, 3rd to the UK, then France, & then finally China.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm

Here is a list of all the UNSC resolutions which have been vetoed, & who they were vetoed by:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...o/vetosubj.htm

Re: US Veto Again
 

Agreed, Incog.

Very good points there.

Re: US Veto Again
 

Yeah but france appear at the most annoying time

Re: US Veto Again
 

France has not Vetoed anything since 1989 (when it vetoed 2 different resolutions - each time together with the UK & USA).

So, I assume you are referring to Chirac's threat last year to veto the proposed "2nd Resolution" regarding Iraq?

Re: US Veto Again
 

yeah, Plus their general annoying stuff. Mainly chirac who is a annoying money grabbing fraud monkey

Re: US Veto Again
 

Jerrek.....excellent post #13, very good.
Same goes for #31 Tigasefi

Re: US Veto Again
 

With all due respect to Scooby et al. that support the Palestinian cause, Israelis can't help being born in Israel, any more than I can help being born in England. I'm sure if they lived in Israel they'd have a different slant on things. Blaming Israelis is not the way to go.

The truth is the single most incompetent entity in the universe (the UN) created this mess, and have steadfastly refused to get themselves out of it. Everyone says it is the US' problem, but it is not. Kofi Annan should start actually doing something to earn his $293,000 a year salary. I feel for the Palestinians, and they are hard done by, but rather than going through the UN like they should of, they used Islamic hatred of Judaism, to reclaim what land they think is theirs, and to get rid of Judaism, killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Also, this whole Bush only supports Israel thing is not quite true. Remember when Bush, Sharon and the Palestinian guy (Abbas?) met up, and the 3 talked together. I remember specifically, people saying that Bush stood up for the Palestinians, and overruled Sharon most of the time. I rememeber one quote quite clearly. Sharon said he wouldn't do X, and Bush just turned round and said: "Oh, I think you will". (Trying to find a quotation for it now).

One other thing, I have never managed to get a good explanation about. Islam was founded in around 500AD-600AD, depending on what you class as the start. Now, Judaism goes back to between 2000BC and 3000BC. If Judaism came along between 2600-3600 years before Islam, and claimed the lands then, then how can Islam come along fairly recently and reclaim what the Jews have already claimed? If anyone has any links about it, i'd be much obliged.

Re: US Veto Again
 

The pointis attrocities are being commited by both sides. No one will ever win.

Israel was created by the UN, you try finding the State of Israel on a map pre 1947 (i think it was setup in 1947 but thats off the top of my head).

Israel behaved admirably when Saddam was raining scuds down on them in 1991, but since then they have become a thorn in the side, they regularly commit attrocities against the palestinians whos answer is to carry out suicide bombings, whish Israel retaliates too and then its the Palestinians all over again. The best thing to do in my oppinion is inform both sides that either they both quit or they will both be occupied and policed by NATO.

Re: US Veto Again
 

More to do with the bible belt christians and their belief that Israel must exist for Jesus to come back than Jewish pressure in the US.
The idea of a strong Jewish lobby group is a handy thing to have around as people believe it readily (after all, the jewish people are an easy target to dislike/hate as history has shown)
The difference between Jews and Israel is sometimes lost when things are reported in the media.
Islamic nations hold Israel responsible for the appauling treatment of the palestinian people (Jerrek, for your post on how israel is a free country, tell that to all the palestinians who have been killed or injured protesting peacfully. It seems you can say what you like as long as you are not a second class citizen, ie Palestinian), but they are able to diferentiate between Israel that state/gov and Jews.
The US needs to start working to improve the situation there. They won huge amounts of respect and credit with Clinton's work, and they need to build that back up again.

Re: US Veto Again
 

looks like Sharron's time is up soon!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040327/325/epnsf.html

Re: US Veto Again
 

Actually i've read a really good point on a website. Although Sharon might be arrestted and charged for fraud and corruption, think of any other country in the region where the leader would be held accountable if they did it.