Lying on job applications
 

With news that Maxine Carr is in court for amongst other things, lying on a job application, is anyone else surprised that this is illegal? Of course, I can see how it would be morally wrong, but breaking the law? Let's face it, there are far worse things you could to than being 'creative' on a CV. I certainly would not lie on a job application now but the past might have been a different story.....

I understand that if someone applied for a job which called for specific professional qualifications (solicitor, the medical service, teaching etc) then of course honesty in that field would be essential. Imagine if you'd studied for 5 years in uni only for your job to go to someone who dropped out after a year but claimed they graduated? Plus how safe would the clients/third party be with someone who was not properly qualified?

However for general, everyday jobs such as sales, (some) callcentre work, office positions etc is it really bad enough to be a punishable offence? As long as someone can do the job, should it matter? With the government eager to get as many people off the unemployment list and in to work, should they really be worrying so much about this?

Perhaps employers set their standards at an unreasonably high level? Naturally they want the best people for the job but is the presence of qualifications the best indication of that? They have interviews to find this out but would people without qualifications get as far as the interview?

Re: Lying on job applications
 

It is the employer's own stupidity if he can't be bothered to check up on potential employees.

And no, lying on a resume should not be illegal. I see nothing in that to warrant a criminal record. I wouldn't do it myself, but I don't believe in thought police.

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Is there anybody who doesn't 'fit' their CV to the job they're applying for?

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people tend to believe things that are printed out smartly on word documents
and good quality paper and bindings

it looks nice and snappy


the fact that it's all lies doesn't seem to come into the equation

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As alluded to by Russ, if you are asked a specific question regarding qualifications and you make something up it has to be wrong. In the simplest of terms it probably falls into a category of deception, especially if proven that you had intent to deceive.

Yes everybody embellishes their experience on CVs or forms to try to suit the application. In most cases ppl will go for brevity and all encompassing wordings to try and cover their range of experience rather than being too pricise and thus limiting. However, just as estate agents are criticised for misdescription of property, the CV is effectively your advert, so why should it be reasonable to missell yourself?

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To be honest they are trying everything to keep her in Jail for as long as possible so it comes as no suprise IMO

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why not? you would be getting something under false pretences

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yes htats what you should do but "TRUTHFULLY"

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i know someone who did this, and got the job. Pi$$es me off, but it does mean that he will habe to do it on every application form from now on

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It defiently doesnt deserve a jail sentence.. Maybe just some kind of record to say that you'd lied before or something?

Dont see how this would work though, because they'd probably then just lie about the record about lying ! :D

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So, saying you're 17 when you're 18 in order to get a discount warrants a jail sentence too right? And a criminal record.

Please, sir, wise up.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

Its fraud.

obtaining under false pretenses.
fibbing.

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There seems to be an impression here that taking someone to court means a jail sentence. I don't see where that has come from. Our media is full of instances where a conviction does not equal jail, even though in theory the option to imprison is there, but the court decides to sentence a fine, community service or some other pants measure contrary to public expectation.

OK previous convictions, Like Maxine Carr's and multiple offences might increase the risk of jail, but for most people, in this day and age, deception, depending on the extent of the personal gain (advantage) you achieved is likely only to result in a "slap on the wrist"

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Fraud, in the legal sense you're using it, is "intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"

Fraud, in the traditional sense, is synonymous to lying. Lying is not illegal and should not be illegal. This is a form of thought police and the government trying to legislate morality. If the government is there to legislate morality, lets start looking at divorce laws, abortion laws, and so on.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

However, when you lie at a job interview, you are tricking an employer into paying you to do a job that you do not meet the requirements off.

You lie to get some money.

This is the basis of fraud.
IMO this is met when you lie on a CV etc at a job interview.

Why should lying here be any different to lying to the police etc?
Its even worse when you lie in writing as it cannot be taken as a slip of the tongue.

Suppose I was to lie in a job interview that I was an experienced & qualified surgeon, then I was to get a job based on this & because of my incompetence & inexperience at surgery cause the death of a patient.

Do you not think that this would be wrong?
Or do you Canadians have a different moral sense than the rest of us? :D :D

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I never lie on CVS i really do have 4 degree awards from oxford, they just are nor mine thats all

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The most common one must be to inflate one's existing salary.

Thing is it is easily checkable when the P45 appears, I doubt any employers bother though.

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Yeah that's what I thought they were trying to do. :tu:

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Lying is illegal in certain contexts, I can only assume that you have never heard of perjury. So you don`t think that fraud should be a crime?

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I've no problem with it being an 'offence' provided on the application form this is clearly spelt out above the bit where you sign... in the same way as signing a credit agreement. e.g. 'please be aware that false statements about yourself blah blah blah is a civil office and can lead to prosecution under section nn of the such and such act'.

Eduction/Prevention is the best way of dealing with this kind of issue.

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So? I can lie to anyone on the street by pretending to be a begger and have them give money to me.

Lying is NOT illegal.

No, you lie to get the job. You work to get the money.



Lying to the police should not be illegal, unless you're under oath.


It doesn't really matter what *I* think. *I* think it is wrong and wouldn't do it, but, I'm not about to legislate morality and force my opinion onto others.

If you do get the job based solely on what you said and no one bothered to check up on it, they should be held accountable for neglect.

*You* should then be held accountable for murder because you murdered that patient.

The crime here is murder, not lying to get a job.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Wise up sir.

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That is considered fraud. Be careful to note that I gave two definitions.

I did not say that. Wise up you ****ing idiot.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

That is the way to do it. Make the person sign a form where he issues a statement that everything he has said and written down is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If he signs that and its later discovered to be untrue, you have grounds for fraud.

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Don't forget that we rarely recognise US/Canadian laws and their terminology.

Enough of that please.

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This has nothing to do with laws. I just gave two definitions. One in the legal terms, and one used in every day language.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

With regards to maxine, I think it's the obtaining job seekers allowance and other benifits through fraudulant means are the serious crimes with the long sentances.
The job application bits are probably to just show her as a bad person.
And of course, the media will concentrate on the bits that make her out to be a lier because of the huntley case.

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Lying on a Job Application or CV is IMHO most definitely wrong, and probably fraud too. However "Tailoring" of your CV towards the specific position you are applying for is not only acceptable, it's almost "de rigeur".

I was recently in the situation of hunting for a new job, and therefor sending my CV to Job Agencies etc. What I did was create a Master CV which was then Tailored to each specific job application. The tailoring being in the nature of emphasising which of my skills met the requirements of the position.

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It might get you the job, but saying you can do this, this, and that, and then you cant do it it a week later when asked, will only get you the sack.

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What might be a US legal term may have a different meaning/connotation here.

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Very well then Russ, explain. Since you're such an expert in law and since you are insisting on making a mere definition an issue, please explain how my definition of fraud now suddenly "American."

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Settle down now Jerrek, I've never claimed to be an expert in law and I've not said your definition of fraud is 'American', I've just said you should remember that some of your laws are different and what may be illegal in the US or Canada (such as it being against the law to shoot a whale from a moving vehicle in California - yes I know it's an extreme example) might not have the same bearing here, and seeing as 99%+ of nthw users are from the UK, that's the law we're discussing.

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So? I still need the example of how my definition isn't in line with UK definitions.

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I have not said that. I just reminded you that some of your laws and definitions vary from ours and you should bear that in mind when making such assertions.

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One of which is irrelevant to the issue at hand, if we are talking about a legal issue then only the legal definition counts.

And I did not say that you asked that, hence me asking a question about your beliefes. Why don`t you wise up and actually pay attention to other people's posts?

I`m wondering why you feel the need to protect your ability to lie on a job application form. One can't help wonder whether this would be to cover a complete lack of competency on your part.

*Edit* Thanks for the red rep Jerrek, nice to see that you've now descended to the level where you are awarding them on the basis of the voices in your head as opposed to the comments on the board.

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I'm protecting individual rights.

Huh?

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You really have surpassed yourself with that one, my BS metre seems to have gone entirely off the scale. You are now arguing that you should have the right to lie.

See above, go away and think for a while. When you've failed to comprehend what utter rubbish you are posting come back and we'll explain it to you.

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Can I step in here? 7 years ago I was 'less than truthful' on an application for a job and I had the job (along with 17 others). I did the job very well and only left due to my needing to return to South Wales. My justification at the time was no specific qualifications were needed and I did well in that job. Of course there may have been someone who desperately need a job and I might have taken it away from them so yes, there's certainly a moral situation. But a legal one? I can't agree.

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Yes you should. Would you make someone a criminal for any lie they tell? Hello 1984!


Huh?

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No, but I would for lying on a job application form, as far as I am concerned that is fraud. You can bang on all day about how you colloquially use the word "fraud", but at the end of the day, on a legal topic that has absolutely no weight behind it whatsoever.

Don`t give me this crap that you are protecting individual rights, all you want is the right to lie. Again, I am forced to wonder why you wish to have this as a right you can protect.

Ironically, you're example of 1984 is a pretty poor one as in that you were punished for telling the truth rather than the lies of the state.

Regardless of the legal issues, if I were to employee someone and to later find out that they had lied on their job application they would be immediately dismissed, no matter how competent they were at their job. They cannot be trusted on their job application, so I see no reason to trust them at all.

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I know I'm joing in late here.

But Jerrek answer me this. What if I lie on my application form and say that I have a Medical Doctorate and that I'm specialising in neurosurgery.

I'm a good Bull$hitter and breeze through the interview. Next thing you know, hey I'm a doctor.

Then would you believe it you are diagnosed as having a brain tumour and guess what? I'm goning to operate on you. All because you protected my individual rights........Cheers mate.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

How do I want to lie?
How is it that you tell me I don't want to protect individual rights when I repeatedly stated I want to?

I want to protect individual rights.

Look past that. It is the entire concept of the thought police that bothers me. Obviously, it doesn't bother you.

And that is perfectly fine.

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How do you propose to sign the form where you swear that it is the truth, and the entire truth, and nothing but the truth?

How do you propose to attach the proof of your degree?

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Claiming to be a doctor or solicitor or policeman is illegal surely.Saying that you have have yay years of experience is not illegal.However it is immoral.

Anyway once you start on the deception the house of cards you have built will always be in danger of falling down around your ears if you can't keep up th deception.No one can lie for ever.

Incog.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

Really? To touch upon another thread you don`t want to legalise marriage for gay couples. What you mean to say is that you want to protect individual rights when they suit your purposes, no matter how unreasonable.

Why is it being under the rule of "thought police" to expect that there are situations where you are expected to tell the truth?

Re: Lying on job applications
 

Perhaps by attaching a copy of your degree certificate?

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Yep, impersonating is illegal. Lying isn't. Good point.

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No one has a right to marry. Everyone has a right to freedom of speech though.

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Then you're not lying, are you?

Re: Lying on job applications
 

Thanks Incog, for the thought. In this scenario, you are impersonating someone, which is clearly illegal. Simply saying you worked 4 months on a job when in fact you worked only 2 is a lie, and is not and should not be illegal.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

That's Pierre actually :D

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:eh:My confusion is expanding.This is the second thread I have become confused about.

I think I either need to go to bed or I need a brain transplant.

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I've got to agree with you here. I have just read the 2 previous posts to yours and get this feeling that either my brain is softening or that I really need to read everything very, very carefully from thread No 1 onwards. :)

Re: Lying on job applications
 

not at all, Incog, I am increasingly of the opinion that Jerrek regards this forum as an 'ants nest', he can stop by & stir up with a stick?

- I noticed you are/were banned on the 'offtopic' forums, Jerrek, how could that have happened - a bet? ;)

- lying on a job application in the UK is an offence under the Theft Act, how could they bring a prosecution, otherwise, your attempts to obfuscate that are lame in the extreme, Jerrek ;)

Re: Lying on job applications
 

In the early 80's my dad got a job out in saudi arabia. The only way they would allow the family to move out was if he had a degree.
He never went to uni as he married my mum instead (fool)
Thankfully the doctor had copies of degree certificates, so dad magically got one and we spent 5 glorious years out there.

Re: Lying on job applications
 

I think the doctor may have broken a law or two :D

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Probably, but it got families out there.
The need for the degree was because the owners of the company had the impression that a degree made you worth more.

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I'm reminded of this spam regarding degrees from 'prestigious non-accredited universities' here. It might help some people going for jobs where the prospective employer is overly fond of degrees :D

We all embellish our cvs to some extent. But I think claiming you have qualifications you don't have is probably not very wise. I suppose it's the difference between lying and putting some spin on things.

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Yeah, there's a difference between someone saying they have a BEng and going into a draftmans job they've done for 5 years already, and someone saying they have a medical qualification when they have no experience at all.

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By attaching your "fake" certificate.

A lie, is a lie, is a lie.

Ok then what if you are a qualified doctor but you have lied about a procedure that you say you can perform but actually have no experience in performing?????

You argument is weak on every level

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Apologies for dragging this one up again but look at this - they may be better drivers but when it comes to telling the truth....... :D

Re: Lying on job applications
 

Over the years I would say that the majority of CVs that I have received with job applications have been untruthfull. Funnily enough I would say that many of them were understating their qualifications and experience in order to get more manual type work for a short period whilst they were looking for something better and more permanent. This particularly was the case in University towns and you had to be very thorough in your vetting of CVs if you wanted an employee for the long term and didn't want the training put to waste on someone who only wanted the job for a few months.

Another thing that I came across was "job club" applications. These were from a group of unemployed people who banded together to provide each other with experience. Each member of the "club" would become an "employer" and produce official looking company stationary on their PC. Members of the "club" would use these "employers" in their CV and if you wrote to them for references you would get official looking responses from the "company". I tumbled on this when I had an application for a job from a person who claimed to have worked for a number of years with a certain company which had an address on a street that I knew was only residential, mainly bedsits and student accomodation.