Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Briefly,

I have just got ntl 150 broadband. I received my phone bill, which is usually around £30, and it was for over £400. ALL of the itemised calls from my 2nd line (old dial-up line) were premium rate service numbers.

I have now discovered that these numbers are all premium dial-up's. I knew nothing of their exsistance until now.

I can only put it down to getting broadband & my wife downloading Hotbar. I have since discovered that hotbar is spy/adware and tried countless times to delete it.

Anyway, getting back to the NTL bill, I feel I am a victim of fraud, my computer, as a result of this software, was dialling these numbers without my knowledge or consent. NTL are saying it's my fault, I should have known about this. I said they should have made me aware of it! verbally when I upgraded from dial-up & also when installing the broadband software.

Let this be a warning to you all, if possible, disconect your phone line from your computer (I use my computer as a fax too).

Let the battle commence....I am complaining to everyone I can, OFCOM, ICSTIS & ISPA.

I will keep you all informed, If anyone has similar experience or can help in anyway that would be great.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I did exactly that when i got broadband, i unplugged my modem. However NTL do have a point, you really ought to know what your installing and what your running on your computer even if its only from the point of view of if your running loads of rubbish it will slow it down.

Im not sure you can complain to anyone, you made those calls. NTL do not have a responsibility to inform you of changed calling patterns. Just think yourself lucky your not with BT and on a quarterly billing frequency

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Sorry m8.... I agree with Gary_580 !!

Its your own fault ! Not NTL's .... I am sure you will take more care in maintaining your pc in the future....

Oh :welcome: to the site BTW :D

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Hi, & welcome to the site. :)

You are not the first to be hit by this issue, & you won't be the last. :(

Unfortunately, I don't think you can blame ntl (or any ISP for that matter) for someone not properly protecting their PC.

It is quite a common problem, & may be worth a look at the ICSTIS website, as there are actually laws that apply to premioum rate diallers (such as each call must not amount to more than £20.00 or something like that)

Ultimately though, I think you have just learnt a very expensive lesson that most BB users learn-unplug your phone from your PC & make sure your PC is clean of any virii/spyware/diallers that shouldn't be on there.

BMW make cars, but you can't blame then when people don't drive properly & have accidents, & that's pretty much the case for you-ntl supplied your BB, but it was not their fault that your PC had diallers installed on it.

Just my 2c......

http://www.icstis.org.uk/icstis2002/default.asp

Out of interest-what numbers have been dialled: http://www.icstis.org/icstis2002/default.asp?Node=67

Good luck, & keep us informed.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I was working on a computer last week (aol - poor poor people) and this person had repetedly been looking at various dodgy sites....

Every time they got a pop up asking for ANYTHING they blindly clicked on yes.

This resulted in a number of porn diallers on their system.

Anyway - I removed them all - but the point is people - should really take great care about what they click on :)

I don't mind in this case however as I got well paid for my services...

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I don't think that Hotbar, although full of spyware is responsible for the premium rate calls, I think it just uses your exsisting connection.

Have you checked in your dial up connections on your PC?

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I use a couple of programs linked to my business spares suppliers etc that use the modem so my PC is always connected to the phone line as well as BB. I assume (hope) that with constant vigilance, plus good AV, ZApro, Adaware, Pest Patrol & Spybot, I am fairly safe.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I can understand your frustration Marc but it realy is not NTL's fault. If you are going to take this up with anyone it should be the dialing software producer..

NTL are not going to be able to drop the charges as they have paid the operators of the premium rate numbers !

I think that you should chase this with Oftel ect but not NTL !

How can they send the bill to your computer :confused:

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Firstly, are you *sure* that your PC dialed them, I think it'd unusual for them to call 39 different numbers. Is your computer on all the while?

The other thing is did whoever install said software go and check the terms and conditions when the software was installed, including following any links that might have been given? I'm sure that the software would make those references you talk about, they just weren't read....

Also, you could try calling one of them, see if it is a modem line. And another thing - are they all UK numbers? If not I feel you'll have even less chance of getting anything back.

I know it's not much help, but ultimatly, it certainly isn't NTL's fault.... You might be able to moan about it and get it struck off, but those calls were made from your number, and so you're the one responsible unfortunatly....

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I'm not saying that tucking it away in TS & Cs is telling you as such, but they actually do have a section on this very subject.....

http://www.ntlhome.com/legals/userpolicy.html

Sorry-I'm not ntl's biggest fan, & you can argue the to$$ over who is to blame, but ntl are definately not to blame for software that you/your wife/etc installed on your PC (knowingly or otherwise).

Sorry. :(

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

this is taken from the user policy here:

"One of the main dangers when using the internet is the possibility of someone gaining access to your PC (or any other device you use to access the Internet) and the information you keep on it. To help prevent this we strongly recommend you use a firewall. A firewall is a product which helps protect your machine from unauthorised access. No firewall can guarantee security, but an adequate firewall will increase the security of your machine and help protect your anonymity. We do not provide firewalls ourselves, but you will find further information on security and details of various firewalls which are available on our help page.

It is your responsibility to ensure the security of your machine and ntl can not be responsible to you in the event that a person gains unauthorised access, whether or not you use a firewall."


there is the quote above... and also a warning about internet security during the registration process for broadband... both of which you have a change to read. I don't think you can say that they are keeping this quite.

Most problems with viruses/ spyware/ etc is caused by lack of education on the part of computer owners, so get yourself a firewall, antivirus and sypware checker and shuld keep yourself safe. IMHO if people don't do that then they deserve any viruses/ spyware that they get!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

no you are paying these dialler companies huge sums of money - ntl will have already paid them - you are just paying them back for the phone service that you have been using.

you have my sympathy i know many ppl who have been caught by it.

if the dialler software did not prominately state they were idalling premium numbers then you have case with ICSTIS. the best u can hope for is that they are banned from operating in the uk and maybe ICSTIS will fine them. chances are your will still have to pay your bill but it is worth a shot...

edit it is a scam but not ntl's!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Marc-Do you have any of the following? (if so, what so you have in specific?)

1) A firewall.

2) Anti-virus software.

3) Spyware removing software?

4) A router?

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Unfortunatly, I know what you're saying, but I actually wonder if any of these would have helped in this instance, as the firewall will probs still let the connection be dialed, it not be recognised as a virus, an perhaps only flagged by the spyware - if it is purely a dialer, then I'd probs say there's no spyware there, certainly it'd be malware, but .....

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

can you give a few examples of the numbers that got dialed?

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

AFAIK diallers are picked up by spybot and adaware anyway.

A paid for antivirus usually has blocking for diallers, and also some firewalls will alert you if you try to connect you to the internet with a different device.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html

claims to prevent spyware comming onto the system - it is supposed to be quite good and is free

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

:tu: Flippin good software... It works well against dialers !!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I know a lot of them are, but a lot of the time they are the ones that will create a connection type in your DUN with no valid number - I've never actually seen one that actually will go in there that dials a 090 number - for a start it'd be UK specific...

The other thing is of course, that it's quite likely none of these were running or had been ran recently...

The other thing is that it seems strange that it should dial so many different numbers....

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Maybe you could ask the guy sat near your green box with a telephone connected to it if he knows anything about the numbers. It seems strange that a computer installed dialer is using so many different numbers. I know from experience that calls have been charged on my bill that I have not made so it is possible that the calls were not made from your telephone or computer. It would be helpful if the times when these calls were made were listed on here together with the telehone numbers.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Yeah, as I thought too - the other thing is try ringing one to see if it is indeed a modem line - has anyone in your house got a new mobile phone that can play java games or something?

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Whilst I take on your comments, and once anyone is wise to the fact that this takes place, it is easy to say you should have done this or that etc, (I probably would too!)

I guess you can only call it naivety. If you never knew or even contemplated its existence, you cannot do anything about it, as you know nothing of it, (difficult to explain, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to get at!!)



And yes, you can say NTL have passages on their web site advising it, but again if you never knew it, you would not be looking for it to find it.



Is it too simple for them to enclose a leaflet or something in the modem box "please now disable/disconnect your old dial-up connection" - job would have been done. (By me and other people who have obviously suffered the same fate, hence there warnings on there website). - I use my computer as a fax too, so I couldn't have just unplugged it - although it goes back to naivety again, I had no reason to unplug it as I had no knowledge or wild idea this does/would happen.



I still intend to fight to the death though, if I get no result, no problem, plenty more cable companies or sky who would be more than willing to accept around £100 per month for TV/PHONE/WEB

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

some of the numbers: (i dialled a few on my phone & got 'dial-up' noises)

all start 0909....
0240068, 6514746, 0240429, 6514787, 0240056, 0240288, 6514717, 0240330, 6514701, 0240308, 6514730, 0240056, 6514789
All done on the same day, costing £135.22 (plus VAT)

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I think you have a point that NTL should probably flag this danger more prominently. £400 is a lot of money... Still, I think the best you can hope for is NTL offering to reduce the bill to keep you on board. But, as others have said, you're ultimately paying the owners of the premium numbers, so I don't think you should expect much of a reduction. :(

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Funny you should say that - All of them are less than £20.00, £19.88 is the highest, probably to avaid the laws!

5 of them were 1 min 14 secs too, even though they are different numbers.

Just downloaded spywareBlaster (month too late though eh!, shame NTL doesn't give you something similar to this on the install disc) - opened my eyes I can tell you. I have got loads of various dialers. (not counted yet, but I bet the same amount as the number of phone calls!)

After all this came to light, I downloaded various other similar software, but they didn't find the dialers

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

So if your car picks up a puncture after you drive over a pack of nails, are you going to sue the tyre company because they didn't explicitly tell you that driving over nails was bad for your tyres ?

Sorry Marc, we all appriciate your frustration but ditching ntl: for a problem that is not of their making, unless they sort it out, is a bit drastic.

And one might ask what happens when your BT ADSL picks up a virues or another dialler, who will you go to then ?

These diallers are a pain in the backside but if you are sure that it is your PC that is dialling it and not a member of your family dialling a premium rate line (you should have seen how many votes appeared on my bill after I'm a Celebrity !) then you have recourse to go to ICTHIS otherwise you have just learnt an expensive lesson.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

I'm sorry to say marc, you are deluding yourself if you think NTL are going to refund a mistake that you've made.

If it means you do cancel all of your services, that is your perogative.

You say you have listened to everyone here, but they are not giving you the answer you want to hear. Just put a line under this episode and learn from your mistake and move on and be more vigilant.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

Have you actually tried dialing one of these to check its a modem.

If its not then you need to have words around your house and then potentially words with NTL.

That said you have found loads of dialers for premium rate nos on your PC so it looks to be your fault.

Protection for the future could include requiesting NTL to put a premium rate bar on your phone, will stop you calling to register to play WWTBAM though.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

NTL will have no responsibility here. The numbers are dialled from your computer, from software that was downloaded while you surfed the net. It is unfortunate that you need to keep the line open as a fax line and thus need your dial-up modem installed.

Your only hope is to possibly record with a govemental organisation, maybe the police that the software was illegally installed on your machine without your knowledge, if you are able to make it a crimial case against the companies that put the software there, you may be able to claim the money back somehow, other than that. The bill will stick with ntl as your property dialled them numbers, ntl mearly billed you for making them calls.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/advice/internet.shtml

"If youââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ve noticed a premium rate telephone number on your phone bill relating to an internet call you didnââ‚ ¬Ã‹Å“t make, you should contact the premium rate regulator ICSTIS by:

Phone †“ 0800 500212
Email †“ helpline@ICSTIS.org.uk
Website †“ www.icstis.org.uk

If ICSTIS feel it is a complaint they can investigate, they will issue you with a reference number.

You should then go back to your phone network (i.e BT. Telewest) and explain the problem. You should explain that you have a reference number from ICSTIS who are investigating and you should ask them if they would be able to freeze the part of your bill that is in dispute while this investigation is ongoing. ICSTIS cannot insist that your phone network does this. You should pay the remainder of the bill that you owe to the phone company
"

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

refer to this page this is the virus you had on your pc that dialed that p rate number. This site tells you how to remove it have had to do it to one of our works computers http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/anal...ialtop69a.html
Shame bt, ntl telewest etc dont get together and refuse to pay monies made through these dialer viruses to the companies involved as it affects so many of their customers
How to remove virus which you can get just by browsing the internet
Open the search companion on your pc and search for dial/top69-a once its been found delete it also turn of system restore from the my computer, properties, system restore tab, restart your computer turn system restore on and delete all temp cookies and files from your tools, internet options, general tab.

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

All You Out There, Don't Dispair!!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge
 

ALL YOU OUT THERE, DON'T DISPAIR!;)

We too got stung by the Premium call dial-ups to the tune of £150.00 !
We called NTL and our bank and managed to get a hold of the name of the company which is in Italy.
We wrote to the company demanding our money back as we did not request the use of their premium number and did not knowingly use it.
They replied full of appologies but told us that it wasn't them but someone using their number. Told us to send our bank details and copy of the bill and they would refund our money.
We checked again both with NTL and the bank before giving our details.
Within a week we received a cheque for the full amount!!
Our faith in human nature has been restored!

Re: Premium dial-up without knowledge