a 'disability' or not ?
 

the father of a 14 year old girl, has appeared in court to get his local council to pay £2,500 per year for his daughter's tuition in an independent school, because of her high IQ and exceptional scientific and mathematical mind.

the defence argues that this case should be treated as a 'disability' case and so local authority help should be provided.

the case failed to get the desired verdict (due to delays in hearing the case) and its expected the father will resubmit the claim.

source BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3563923.stm

so should the council foot the bill ?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Yes they should. She is 'special needs'

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

ooh this is a tough one, it's not really a need is it? But I think it's a worth while investment.

PS: sorry for the changing avator, I think I'll stick with this one

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Hmm, I don't think that anyone would agree that having better brains than most is a disability in the traditional sense of the definition. After all dis implies a lack of something.

However, the fact that the daughter has special schooling needs, and needs extra resources, may give rise to some form of claim under equality legislation. I suppose this is a natural progression of the effects of Political Correctness. I woudl hope however that the case can't succeed. simply on the basis of where on earth does this sort of thing stop.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

She is in need of advanced levels of tuition, just like an autistic child is.Why should she be denied achieving her full potential because the council cannot normally supply her full educational needs?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Its certainly not a disability, and she certainly doesnt have special needs.

How about the many others with High I.Q. , should we start sending them all to Private schools at our expense? how is she any different than any other gifted child?

If she is unable to learn at a normal school then maybe she should be entitled to it as that would constitute a learning disability however this doesnt seem to be the case, her father simply decided to move her to a private school and now expects us to flip the bill (He is a Dr by the way and I'll bet he is on a fair bit more money than most of us).

What is this Girls I.Q. anyway?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

if you look at the claim it can easily be dismissed, a disability is not defined as being exceptional in something, it means your are unable to do something such as walk unsupervised............

however i dont think the council should foot the bill because if the father choose to push his daughter in to a more 'private' area then he should pay.......

what about people who really are disabled mentally ?

you are taking money away from them.........

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Ive seen no mention of this, Ive seen nothing to say that she needs the same level of tuition as an autistic child. She was in a normal Comp before this anyway and from the little evidence we have it seems pretty safe to assume that she was doing well there.

It just seems to me that the father wants whats best for his child (Dont we all) she has the best employment opportunities later in life if she goes to private schooling yet for some reason he thinks we should pay her way.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Definition of Children with Special Educational Needs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Report of the Special Education Review Committee in its definition of pupils with special educational needs included all †œthose whose disabilities and/or circumstances prevent or hinder them from benefiting adequately from the education which is normally provided for pupils of the same age, or for whom the education which can generally be provided in the ordinary classroom is not sufficiently challenging.âââ€à …¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�1 The Report described particular categories of pupils with special educational needs, including pupils with mental handicap, emotional and behavioural disorders, physical and sensory disabilities, specific learning disabilities, specific speech and language disorders, and autism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Report of the Special Education Review Committee, Stationery Office, Dublin, October 1993, p. 18.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Why should she have any more of a chance than any other child? She will more than likely get excellent GCSE results, gain good A levels, and go onto Uni to get a degree anyway..

Its not fair at all to compare her to a 'special needs' child in the usual sense of the word.. They need help to gain even the most basic of qualifications, and should be given a chance. She's got more than enough imo.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Realistically, is she being discriminated against, by not getting a higher standard of education than anyone else who went to the local authority school?

I suspect that that school will have had a number of children who are gifted in one way or another. Yet the school isn't expected to pander to each childs specific needs, just to provide education according to the legislated standards. Now if there was an Ofsted inspection, that said the school was not meeting that standard, there would be a case to answer perhaps. Of course the Education Authority should be striving at all times to provide the best education standards it can. Maybe the real answer is that for the classes at which she is exceptionally good, she should be moved to a year or two above her age group.

I really can't see why anyone should be able, of right, to get a better education than others, however nice and idealistic it should be, simply because they have more marbles than those others, yet that is what is being argued for.

Disability legislation intends to try and help those less, not more, fortunate to have some form of quality of life, and thus there is special needs education entitlements. However lots of local authorities are trying, as far a practical to do this within the existing school systems, rather than in special schools, simply to reduce the exclusion effect, and thus again reduce discrimination. The father however by seeking an eletist private education could be argued to be adding to discrimination of his daughter by excluding her from a standard school environmnet?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

They might have a case if this applied to all of her classes but this only seems to apply to science/maths, at wich she os over achieving, ive still seen nothing to see that she is suffering directly from over achieving though.

I still cant see anything wich suggests that she needs extra attention like an autistic child as you mentioned earlier.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

There is an initiative running in schools at the moment, which involves the appointment of one of the Teachers as a 'Gifted & Talented Co-ordinator', in order to target resources within the schools, to provide for the more intelligent students.

Personally, I would prefer this approach, which potentially could benefit all gifted children, rather than just the ones who can successfully pursue a claim in the courts.

Obviously, it will need funding, but if the Council has not had to divert monies to subsidising private education, this will be more likely to be forthcoming.

So, while not saying this girl is not deserving of 'special' treatment, I would like to think it could be provided in a 'normal' school background, which would also benefit her in areas other than her 'specialities'.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

But then we could argue that 'real' special needs kids should also not be entitled to any extra tuition, since it's tough if they cannot reach their max potential on what they are tought in a normal class. I think it should work both ways though....

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

if you want a 'gifted' child to have a 'higher' standard of education you (the parent) should pay for it, its grossly unfair on many other students who are 'normal' or disabled (such as autism)

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

yes, she is being helped by harnessing her talents, if you want to take it a step further why shouldnt students who are not doing 'well' be given private tuition what about the rest of the class who are average ?

this does happen in some cases......

if she is brighter she should be able to move up a year, the case being put forward is she is a scientific and maths 'genius' it doesent cover other areas......

and thats what they should stick to doing


yes so he should pay for this, its saying to the taxpayer, (look my child is cleverer then yours so she gets special treatment)

she already has a head start......


i have nothing against someone wishing to excel there childs education, but YOU must pay for that.............

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

IMHO the council certainly should not pay. Surely, at this point, the child has an idea of what areas interest her. Given that, why doesn't a company or organisation step in and sponsor her education. In return, she could sign a contract (or her father could) which will tie her to the company who sponsors her for a couple of years.

Football teams do this with talented kids, so why can't companies do it with the academically talented? This way, she'll get the best education and the company will get a talented employee.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Where does it all stop? In every class there are, by definition, pupils that are above average ability and pupils that are below average. If tuition is aimed at the average student then every pupil that is above average is being held back by the system and those below average are struggling to achieve, unless they all have one to one tuition. How far above or below average would a pupil have to be, to be classed as having special needs?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

excellent idea, now to find a company that would invest these days :rolleyes:

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Well, that's the real problem isn't it? Companies in this country do not think beyond tomorrow. They leave training to the state, take little interest in further education, moan about the calibre of new recruits, and couldn't give a stuff about their current employees.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

While I accept that in a better world,we would find a way to inspire and fund above average or gifted kids,I would have to say that this child has no claim to special funding in any way.

As the father of a special needs child(my son is autistic with severe hyperactivity and learning disability) i would have to say that I would like for my son to get the special support that he requires,which has been an ongoing battle regarding resorces for the past 5 1/2 years.
I dont want to sound like a winer who wants to sponge society for stuff,but I do feel that we must cater to the needs of kids with accepted disabilities before we pander to the children of "above average" abilities.
I would say however that it is the job of our wonderful government to get off their collective backsides and do something to fund our children ....of all abilities,as they are the future of our society and often the most forgotten.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

well said, im sure its hard for you :(

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

:tu: Very well said i agree with you :)

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

...and what if (as in most cases) the cost is prohibitive?
I am not arguing that bright kids should get extra tuition/funding....just the exceptionally gifted ones.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

How do you decide the threshold standard for "exceptionally gifted". And in what types of gift?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/539.asp

To quote.

"With a child like Mark you can tell as soon as they walk in, 'that's a bright child'. They just have this sort of intensity, and maybe they're not so good at relating to people," she says.

"It means he's not like other kids, basically. His needs are way different than a normal six year old. He will never fit perfectly into a class where he's with aged peers. That's in a nutshell what being profoundly gifted means."

To put that score in perspective, the average child Mark's age has an IQ of 100. Gifted children are around the 130 level. At 200, Mark is a genius †� even to other child geniuses.

But his mother worries about the labels that have already come with the IQ score, that of "socially isolated" and "eccentric professor".

"Nobody wants that for their child, to grow up with that image. I want him to be able to communicate with other people, but not to be frustrated academically, so it's really hard to find a balance," she says.

Helen Dudeney from the Talented and Gifted Children Association says Mark is one in a million with such a high IQ. She deals mostly with the kids that are two in every hundred †� still rare and still difficult for the public education system to handle.

"The lack of coping comes because teachers aren't trained in teaching gifted children. They're not trained in identification and what to do when identification happens," says Dudeney.

Helen believes it's also vitally important for those children to be recognised and supported in their talents, in much the same way those gifted in sport are given extra attention."


We are not talking about bright children here.We are talking about genius children.They have as much propensity to get into mischief as those who are considered 'special needs' by the members of this site.In fact a bored genius is a waste as they will switch off and become alienated from society and we maybe denied another Einstein or Hawking.

Incog.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Ah the first post that suggests that having the gift of genius can be a double edged sword that if not "treated" could become a hindrance to proper balanced development. I can now see an argument that the child, if the educational development is not appropriate, can suffer mental anguish and potentially therefore the genius is a disability as it prevents a "normal" development.

However this is all very tenous, and ultimately seeks to blame society for everyone who doesn't turn out well balanced.

In practice I beleive society has accepted that it needs to assist those with a disability to participate and integrate as far as practical with society to gain a quality of life and equality with their peers if at all possible. I beleive however that the generally accepted view of disability is that something is missing or not present, not that you have something that performs better than others.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

As a teacher I just want the tools to do the job.If I'm not trained or qualified to recognise and deal with a genius child then I want as a teacher and a parent for the state to provide for that child.Our children are a national resource and to put efforts into the less able and average but to ignore the special needs of the super bright is cruel and a complete waste.Yes if the parents have the money to give the necessary education to such a child that's fine.However we are talking about children from homes that do not have the ability to provide the extra special education such a child needs.

I simply do not understand the attitude that such children can cope so lets just ignore the problem.It's the same attitude that was prevalent about those suffering from dyslexia in the 60's,70's and 80's.

The fact is that there are very few genius children as they are quite rare(wish those with ADHD were as rare) and the cost of providing appropriate education would not be as prohibitive as you might imagine.

Seeing a child that cannot cope with relationships with their peer group just because they are so intelligent is heartbreaking.

Incog.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

that should be privately funded, why should other members of the public pay for someone elses child to get on to a accelerated learning program, in a private school ?

if the parents cannot achieve funding then simply moving them up a class or two can retain there sanity.........

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Would you pay for your child to go to a school like that ???

I think that you would find the costs rather prohibitive !!!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

A class or two? Some of these students would be five classes ahead of their peers which in turn brings another problem of say 12 year olds in with 16 year olds.Ooh I can see some problems with that.Some could even be at university level at say 12.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

What A crock of **** ... A child is the most fantastick gift that anyone could EVER be given. Full stop end of story.. I hope thay you never loose a child... Its like someone putting there hand in your chest and pulling out your heart....

If you have kids - Cherish them - Give them everything you can 100% all the way .. You may not get a second chance ... I didn't....

Dont blow it... Give them all you can before its too late !! I beg you !

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

if i was a Dr like that guy is cost would not be that much of a problem!!!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

If you ever have Kids Kronas you will understand .. Until then its not fair to expect you to understand !!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

so what we fast track them ?

who pays for that now that students are expected to pay for UNI fees ?


if you want 'special' education for your child, then prepare to pay simple as that.....

how would you like it incog if i had a genius kid :shocked: and told you to pay for my sons tuition see the 'fair' approach there ?

if i ever :Yikes:

i do understand, but i dont expect others to pay for my sons fees no matter how gifted he is.........

its taking money away from people who really need it

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Its is our duty to give our children the absolute best that we can...!!!

I dont personaly give a **** how much it costs... I would want the best for my children wouldn't you ?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

well yes thats obvious

so you want to be selfish and take funds away from wheelchair autistic paraplegic etc disabled children to fulfill your selfish stance, just because your kid is a genius or has a high IQ, very good of you :rolleyes:

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Do we actually know how clever this Girl is anyway? Is she actually Genius material or is she just Bright and its all been blown out of proportion?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Having not read through the entire thread, I think that's a very good point. The girl was described as such:

There is no mention of the girl being exceptionally intelligent...

We could well have a case of an overly ambitious parent at our hands.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Personally i think you have taken Stuarts post out of context.

Notice he said its is our duty not the states duty not governments duty but our as in his duty paid out of his own pocket.

An to reiterate Kronas until you have a child and lose a child or even endure the suffering of your partner having a miscarriage or two you cannot begin to understand what that is like.

Although Stu came pretty close when he said it is like someone sticking a hand through your chest and ripping out your heart.

:angel:

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

If a state school cannot provide for the needs of a an exceptionaly gifted child then it would be a complete waste for averyone if something is not done about it.
We are not talking about snobby parents merely wanting what is best for their child. We are talking about what the child needs and what is best for the common good. If the UK goverment wants to nurture another potential Einstein then, if they have no provision at the moment to do so in the current system, they would be fools if they did not help make it happen.
Some of you lot are just thoughtless and jealous or both. Unless you happen to have a very gifted child then you will never know the anguish and worry as to whether the child is going to suddenly go off the rails because they are not being satisfied with the kind of education that they crave for.

I have an exceptionaly gifted nephew and his teacher has never seen anyone like him in all her years of teaching. He is currently in a class that is two years ahead of where he should normally be and he is still left wanting. His parents are quite stunned by all this because they hardly have an o'level between them (so it is not something that has been drummed into the child at home). His parents could not possibly afford to pay to send him to a school that makes provision for such intelligent children.

If you nay sayers think that such children should be held back because that is they way the system is and the way it should be for everyone then you are exceptionally ungifted and perhaps you need to do some research on the subject.
Our state schools cater only for the average yet if we can find millions of pounds for all the various lower levels special needs then we should perhaps pump a few quid more into the system to help the higher special needs.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

it is happening

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...2&postcount=13

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

This is slightly different though, these parents arnt in the position to pay for this at all.
The parent in this case ( a Dr of all things ) seems to be able to pay for the education of his child yet for some reason thinks we should aswel.

I do agree that genius children should have the opportunity of the best education possible, however I think this should only be payed for by the Gov'mnt if the parents cant afford it.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Excellent post. And I totally agree.

I thought the basic idea of Special Needs teaching is to ensure everyone gets a basic education. Surely, if councils have to pay for some kids to go to private school because they are too bright, then (what with budgets being limited) the people who geniunely need extra education will suffer?

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

yes exactly, i hear people crying 'you dont understand' 'untill you have had a kid' blah blah ofcourse i do, i understand more then people realise, if i was in the same situation i would pay out of my own money to fund my childs 'special learning procedure' not ask the state to give me a handout, its like asking someone else to pay my council tax :spin:

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Thanks. Yep, I read that.
Making provision for recognising it and bringing it to the attention of the parents and the school is one thing but funding the next step and making it actually happen for those children is quite another (and judging by some people's attitudes it could be quite a hurdle).
Some private schools do offer scholarships for gifted children from families who cannot afford the fees but this kind of thing is rare and usually only a partial funding.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

It is all very well you saying "I would pay out of my own pocket" but what if you simply CAN'T afford to pay. Should a child suffer because of a parents inability to give them what they need? This applies to special needs at both ends of the scale.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

at the higher end yes, you could always pay for extrahome tuition in certain subjects such as english and geography to keep interest up, remember science and maths is the persons strong point.......

at the lower end of the scale, people who are disabled should get full help and support, they need it the most!!!!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

So the child at the "higher end" should suffer because they have had the misfortune to be blessed with a higher learning capacity? Is that what you are saying?
Extra home tuition as a solution is just is not suitable for gifted children. I t can make matters worse when they go to school and are left even more wanting. It is fine if for example a child has been away from school perhaps due to a long illness and needs to catch up.
I know it is not very PC to suggest that we should divert money away from children with a clinically recognised disability but when it comes to the crunch we should not be talking in terms of higher and lower ends anyway. They all have a certain need and it has to be catered for.
We have to get out of this "nobody likes a smartarse" mentality and let those who have that certain ability (or disability!) to be able to simply get a fair slice of the cake. What I see is a fair chunk of that cake being spent on the general devil spawn children who are in need of there own special class but not clinically diagnosed with a diability. If we have a system for those kids then we should be able to do something for the FEW who are exceptionally gifted.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Carlingman got it spot on m8.. Why cant you ????

I said that I Would pay for all costs.. My family is the most important thing to me, More important than the budget, more important than the goverment and more important than anyone !!! FACT....

Perhaps you should look at posts in more detail before you reply ! I would be more than happy to fully fund my childs education... Sadly I have not been given that chance... Maybe if you are ever given the opertunity you will react differently and not stick to your single minded attitude !!!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

My son is in mainstream school,despite having special needs,because it was my belief that this is where he can best excell at the subjects he is good at,even at 10 he knows more about computing than his teacher and infact has helped fix her pc twice...LOl...
For the information of the poster who suggested that millions are pumped into the support of those with disbailities,I would love to see where that cash actually goes,cos my son has been waiting for 5 years for a support SEN to be with him,and in the end,I have had to fund her wage myself.........
With that said,I think that Charles Clark could perhaps look into a regional budget for special needs of all spectrums on a regional basis,looking at the amount of support required and fund it specifically to a city to city basis...that way,those who need help will get it and the ares who get more cash than they need will get a reassessment of needs so that the benefits of financial support can be had by those who really need it most.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Children have the right to a state education. If a promisingly talented intelligent child cannot realise their potential in a state school then it is up to the parent to find a way to get his child into a private school that may give a higher standard of eduaction.

If he can't pay for a private school there are many good state schools out there, they may have to move home so the child can attend one.

The child certainly does not have the "right" to go to a private school and the council should certainly not pay for it.

There are scholaships that can be won, sponsorships that can obtained. The parent may have to get another job to fund it.

If the family cannot fund the education or find an alternative way of funding it then that, I am afraid, is a fact of life.

Unfortunately people don't always get what they want, or what they feel is right. In our society the more financially advantaged will always get the better deal.

Please don't dress this up under the "Special needs" banner. The child does not have special needs. She is a bright child that could perhaps do with going to a "better" school.

She is no more special needs than a toe rag scally kid that refuses to be taught.

If she is indeed so intelligent, she will still obtain al her GCSEs, A levels and whatever degree she chooses.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

I don't know....IQ above 120 :confused:But if your son is gifted he does really need it...Hang on....no one wants to take money away from anyone, we just want to ensure that everyone reaches there full potential.Exactly

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Hmm, at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I'd like to say that this isn't always an option. Both my sister & I were classed as "gifted", yet were stuck in mainstream education until the age of 11. It is hard for gifted children to cope with "normal" education, it's easy to get bored when you're doing workbooks you were capable of doing 2/3 years ago. But the school wouldn't fast-track either of us, because they felt that by doing that, they'd be making us susceptible to bullies, and that as a result we'd suffer. We suffered anyway with the work we were given, I can remember being sent off to the library countless times to read because the teachers had no work for me.

Both of us went to a private school from 11-17 (I left after the first year of 6th form, my sister is in her final year) and the level of schooling is different to state schools. It's not just for rich kids either - the school I went to has exceptional exam results, and you do have to sit an entrance exam to be accepted (although I'm sure there's always the cases where mummy & daddy flash some cash & are accepted). If the entrance exam result is exceptionally good, they offer you a scholarship (I think 3 were available each year in my school, increased to about 15 in the 6th form)

There were huge differences in methods of teaching, there were huge changes in the support available, class sizes were smaller; it was all so different & so much more challenging. I do believe that some, not all, private schools are better for gifted children.

Now, onto funding ;) Up until 1997, Government-funded Assisted Places were available for a certain percentage of students. For the first 3 years of my secondary education, my parents paid £13 a term for me to go to school. Now, my dad pays £1300 a term for my sister as his salary has increased. I personally don't see why these were scrapped - it enabled probably about 30% of my year to go to school. One of my best friends at school was exceptionally gifted - she went on to Oxbridge & did very well for herself, and I know for a fact she wouldn't have been able to go had she not been granted an assisted place. They were also limited to pupils who would benefit from the education provided at the school.

I do believe that there should be some funding available to send gifted children to a school where they will benefit from the teaching - whether this is a private school, or a tutor. It is hard to grow up being gifted. This said, I don't believe you can class gifted children under the same support act as autistic children etc - no funding should be taken away to give these children the level of support they need either. Maybe assisted places should be reinstated - they'd give a lot more children the opportunities they need.

Please don't dismiss gifted children though - I don't think you can class it as a disability, but they are special needs & do need to be treated & taught differently.

ETA : link for eligibility of assisted places http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19952016_en_3.htm

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Exactly, where there's a will.........

Agreed, "assisted" being the word, it should not all paid for the local authority and should be available to all that pass an exam and are accepted by said school.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

This is pathetic!

Those children that actually have problems learning and ARE in need of special attention & help at school are constantly denied it because of the low budget that schools get for this, and this Doctor who most likely earns a hell lot more than a lot of us want the council to pay so that his daughter gets better tuition than the rest.

If she is so bright, then let her have the normal education & go onto higher further education later, or then the parents should pay for her to go to a private school. She will only end up working in Macdonalds anyway!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Yes of course I do! I expect the government to support these children on MINE and your behalf.I expect a fair deal for ALL children from the government.After all this country and the world wil benefit if we educate these children well and allow them to reach the utmost of their potential.Maybe somewhere out there is a genius who will finally conquer cancer,old age,faster than light travel,unlimited power.

They are a very small group kronas much smaller than the group who currently receive millions under the status of Special Needs and to be frank I don't see that there will be much return on those millions.The amount given to support children with Attention Deficit Disorder is never commented on.Why is it right to support these children but not those who need just as specialised education such as genius children.Not every such child has a wealthy parent tucked away.

Incog.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Your comments support all I've been trying to say.
I hope you and your sister do well in life.

Incog. :)

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Agreed but if necessary then the funding must be found if parents cannot afford to contribute.

Incog.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Very well said!

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Well,Ive got to say that I would be more than happy to even see a means tested situation to this issue,where everybody gets a slice of the funding cake,but lets face it,while the government cant even correctly allocate funding to the more accepted groupings of special needs,then we dont stand a chance in hell of ever seeing anything like an acceptable solution to this issue........which in the end means that our future,the children lose out,no matter which wage bracket the families come from...........but might I also suggest that the parents of most Attention defecit disorder children would argue that millions is spent on their kids,cos my son who has an aspect of ADHD in his disability gets nothing in extra support,and never has.......

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope the situation will change.

However I regularly teach one very extreme case who is now no longer recieving any medication because it had begun to affect his appetite.He has a Special Needs assistant for practically every lesson who cannot get him to do more than sit down(no mean achievement).As for writing anything down well she does all that for him.I frankly see little point her being present as he is achieving nothing and learning even less.It is depresseing as probably your son isn't on the same level but could possibly achieve much more with the right assistance.

However a genius child can be just as disruptive as an ADHD child mainly because they are expected to work at the level of the average in the class and even the extension work available is inadequate for their intelligence and they get bored.As the saying goes the devil finds work for idle hands.
Protect me from a bored genius-they have a propensity for really intelligent disruption especially of the kind that doesn't exactly break any school rules. ;)

Incog.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Well,from what you describe,I can understand how you feel...but I would have to say that the assistant this pupil has is not actually helping in the way that i would want for my son........In an educational setting,I know that you see many things that must make your hair curl,and it is a damn disgrace that the teaching profession is dumped with so many situations to cope with and so little real support.
As the parent of a special needs child,i would have no problem with this girl getting financial support,but would have a certain concern about addressing her sitaution as a disability,,,,more as a hyper ability but when the country ever supports the teaching profession with the dedicated staff,resorces and funding for kids of ALL abilities/disabilities then we might see a brighter fortune for our children and country.
Thank you,incog for your kind thoughts about my sons situation,it is appreciated.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

how?

example

he can walk, talk, breath, think, hes technically a genius ?

on the other hand someone who has a condition where there adult body has a childs mentality is not needy ? :confused:


so you expect money for the gifted to come out of thin air ?



totally, catigorically, unreservedly, agree with you pierre, is it so hard to understand for the rest of you ?


how are they suffering they are the smart ones ?


i did not mention it would permanant make it an extra to school life not taking away there free time but it seems in this case science and maths is the persons gift so to improve it tuition can help.......

i dont do 'PC' i want equality, furthering an already skilled person in such away is discriminating against disabled people, its just another 'the richer get richer the poorer get poorer situation' :rolleyes:


i seem to remember most people in this country dont like success, instead cheer faliure as 'fighters'


it still means redirecting funding to people who dont urgently need it, remember the father is a 'doctor' thusly he should pay.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

While I think that this doctor is (almost by definition) fairly well off, therefore should not expect the state to fund a private education. He can probably afford it.

While I don't object to the state providing better education for brighter kids, I think that it would cost too much to do it with Private Schools (and may actually leave the state funded Private School pupil open to insults). I think if any extra money is made available, it should be spent improving facilities within state schools.

However the Government (going on past experience) probably wouldn't allocate extra money for this, so it's all a bit of a pipe dream. If they demanded improvements, and didn't allocate extra money, people that really need it would suffer.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

The Council Should Absolutely Not Pay Up !!!

If they wish to seek other means of education then it is up to the parents to invest in this.
All over the UK, there is sufficient good Teaching for all kids, be it with special learning needs or not.

But getting paid tuition becuase you have some sort of gift or are intelligent is just wrong. Everyone is inteligent in their own way so everyone would deserve paid studies in their own field in this case.
I dont think anyone in the world can be labelled as being highly intelligent over the rest of us, as everyone has some degree of intelligence on different subjects.

Ok I think im ranting on now and Im only half awake so il stop now.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

Noone knows where the money should come from - just like many other things in this country, education is underfunded & always needs more money. Noone has said that it should be taken from the special needs budget that already exists though!

Is there really any need to be so patronising? Everyone has a different opinion. Don't be so intolerant, just because your opinion differs from someone elses. We understand, we just don't agree.

State-school education, in some cases, is crap for gifted children. They suffer as they do not receive the level of education they need. Imagine sitting in a classroom now, at the age of 18, and being taught at the level of a 13 year old. At the age of 7, I was reading books at a 12-13 year old level. Sitting in a classroom listening to the teacher reading 7 year old books didn't interest me, and as a result I was packed off to the library to read on my own. Doesn't it matter that I was being singled out & bullied cos I wasn't like everyone else, I'm not suffering, I'm a "smart one". This carries on, through all kind of schools. In secondary school, which I said before for me was a "private" school, things changed. Coincidence? Maybe - or maybe it was the fact that we were all "gifted" enough to have passed the entrance exam, and with smaller classes & more funding I, like many others, had the attention we needed to concentrate & learn effectively.

So we shouldn't let gifted people achieve their full potential anymore? OK then. As long as they have a place in a school, regardless of whether they're being supported or not, we'll just leave them to it. They're clever enough to look after themselves. If they're bullied, well, it's not as if they need the education anyway is it, they're clever enough to learn on their own & get the grades they need.

Tell me, exactly how am I, or anyone else, discriminating against anyone by wanting the best education for their children? If I'm lucky enough to have children, I'd hope that, regardless of their IQ level, results of 7 & 11 year old tests, etc, they receive the most suitable level of education for their needs. If they require extra help with reading & writing, I hope the help & encouragement is there to gain the skills they need. If they're flying ahead in subjects, I hope they're not held back.

I agree. I'm not suggesting that every gifted child should be given a private education, I just think that improvements need to be made somewhere and funding does need to be made available. This should NOT be taken from the budget that already exists for special needs education.

In this case, yes, the parents can probably afford to send their child to a private school themselves, but what about the people that can't? Every child should have the right to the level of education they need.

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

One point hasn't been mentioned (Unless I missed it).
Setting aside all the social arguments that have been raised, it would make sense for the state to pay more for very bright kids to receive better education as that would hopefully allow the country to do well internationally in business/technology/innovations etc....we would get a lot more back from investing in the gifted minds than we probably do from pouring money into the whole special needs area which probably just gets us slightly better educated dole claimants or McDonald's staff.(generalising, I know, but you get the idea)

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

I was under the impression that that idea of state education was to ensure everyone got at least a minimum education.

You appear to be looking at the problem from a business point of view (only invest in what is likely to give good returns). If we did invest in the brighter pupils at the expense of the special needs pupils we would possibly be consigning those special needs pupils to a life of poverty (benefits and/or low paid jobs). It would also impact those pupils that are bright, but do have a particular need for special tutition. As an example, I had a friend at school who had an IQ of around 180, but was dyslexic and needed extra tuitition to read and write. He got the extra tuitition and is now (I believe, although I haven't spoken to him) a Professor of Computing Science at the University of Manchester. If he hadn't got that extra tuitition (which he may not have if the money had gone to the kids percieved to be brighter), he would possibly be on the dole.

As I said in my earlier post, I am not opposed to the idea of bright kids getting extra education, but as long as extra money is provided. Sadly, I don't think any Government will do this, as it would require a lot of money and probably wouldn't get much in terms of improvement within the term of the government that instigated it. IE, they would have to invest for more than 4 years, which may actually impact on their votes.



As stated above, I am not against the idea of brighter pupils getting a better education. I just don't want to see it done at the expense

Re: a 'disability' or not ?
 

I agree wholeheartedly...

This is certainly the best way - although some state schools will take children from just outside their official catchment area if they feel they have sufficient potential.

Again spot on...

Only too true I can assure you

Once again a valid point..

Ok - now for my 2c...

My family put me through "private" school (subsidised by the military) after I got to the stage where I had finished all the primary school maths books (and the first 2 of the local secondary school books) by the time I was part way into my last year at primary school.

I sat an exam (the first I knew of it was when I was called in to see the headmistress) and passed.

When my mum divorced my stepdad, she took a crappy settlement to ensure that he continued to pay for me to complete boarding school...

had I not gone to that school, I would have ended up with nothing, because I needed to be motivated in order to achieve - Had I gone to the local state school I would have got away with doing nothing, and would have done so.

I now have a good job, with a good salary, and help my family out whenever I can..

If my kids (when I have them) need to be educated to that higher level, then I will find a way to pay for it..
I do not expect the local council to pay, why should they - as already stated it is more important to help those who need it in order to achieve the basic level of education, than to help someone who is able to achieve beyond that level...

It may sound harsh, but from my own schooling I can sympathise with those that say being gifted is a double edged sword, and if they are forced to be educated with others who are holding them back, then they will get bored and not learn as well as they might... I have been there, I know how true that is.. but my family found a way to fund my education, and believe me they are not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.
If they can do it, why can't others...

There are plenty of scholarships, bursaries and part funded places at private schools. If a child shows enough talent (normaly there are exams involved) then the odds are that one of them will help fund their education.

thats my opinion - feel free to agree/disagree as you wish ;-)