PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ignored
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

oh diddums . .

maybe he didn't make his case strong enough :rolleyes:

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Another snowflake goes into meltdown and throws a hissy fit.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

What's the point in being a government's standards adviser when whatever outcome just gets overridden when it suits. Kind of a pointless position to be in.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

What's the point of being a Minister or manager, if you're not allowed to tell somebody off for doing a bad job?
No wonder the civil service is riddled with ineptitude.
Perhaps she should've thrown phones at people, or grabbed them, or turfed somebody out of their chair. Or is that just ok for Labour MPs and Labour Ministers?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Exactly. Basically, it's like the head of HR being over-ruled by the managing director of a company.

You have no credibility in that role if your advice is not followed. So you either stay there to just collect the money as a yes-man with no credibility, or you resign.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It's good to know that bullying is apparently completely acceptable for politicians. I assume Conservative MPs who condemned John Bercow for bullying will withdraw their condemnations now that Boris Jonson says bullying is OK

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Bullying is bullying is bullying - no matter who does it to who.

The fact thats its been done by a Govt. Minister, who has repeatedly broken the ministerial code (and is also incompetent), makes it a farce she's still in the job.

This has got all the signs of Cummings again, hanging on his mates whatever... Then eventually having to get rid when they make cock up, after cock up.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Its pretty reprehensible that some still seem to think that bullying is acceptable in whatever form bullying takes...

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

How else are people expected to tell a civil servant when they've made a mess of things? It is the civil servants that can never be got rid of.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

:tu:

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

She's been found guilty of bullying behaviour by an inquiry. What bit don't you understand ?

If someone doesn't meet their objectives then they can lose their job (even civil servants).

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

:tu:

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

:tu:

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I think the appropriate word in the topic title is advice

There is no written rule that says you have to act on it if you don't fully agree with it.

Resigning because your advice wasn't implemented seems like a 'look at me I'm too important to be ignored' statement from a sore loser ;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

What was this bullying behaviour meant to have been, other then raising her voice?
Was it anything like this?
Now that all sounds like what should've been a police matter.



So how often do civil servants get sacked for ineptitude?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

More importantly, how many times are they moved sideways to screw up somewhere else? :D

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Link

So the Civil servants were bullying her.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It sounds like she lost the dressing room.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Course you would, just like you sacked your deputy for racism. :rolleyes:

Hypocritical asshole.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Well said

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

So she did it but it wasn't intentional, wonder if that defence will hold up next time I'm stopped for speeding. Sounds like another prime ministerial cover up to avoid sacking someone, starting to wonder what they have to do to get the boot, other than call Carrie names of course

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Priti Patel
@pritipatel
· Mar 27, 2019
Resorting to bullying & intimidation is not the type of the leadership or behaviour anyone should sanction or endorse. In an era where political conviction is ridiculed for the comfort of conformity & compliance, its a shame such little respect is shown to the views of others. twitter.com/tnewtondunn/st…

hmmmm take it that dont apply to you Priti you mega hypocrite

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

So you don't believe in the ministerial code of conduct then?.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

You mean like Gordon Brown did?
All it amounts to is civil servants getting sulky over being criticised for ineptitude, and nothing more than that. No phones thrown, no grabbing of people, and no turfing people out of a chair.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Here we go the great defender of the faith who defends the indefensible every time..

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

What's wrong with criticising people who have done something incorrectly?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It's called whataboutery as you're trying to derail the debate.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Vague undefined issues vs clear defined issues. I'm not the one ducking the real issues.
The report says she wasn't supported by the department. this is classed as bullying by industrial tribunals all the time.
Have the snowflakes in the civil service never been criticised for bad work before now?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

What about the other two departments where she was reported as bullying staff?

There’s a huge difference in being ‘direct’ and ‘giving direction", and bullying.

Resorting to bullying & intimidation is not the type of the leadership or behaviour anyone should sanction or endorse. In an era where political conviction is ridiculed for the comfort of conformity & compliance, its a shame such little respect is shown to the views of others.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

l am not ignoring any element as the clear fact remains that the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code.

Are you denying that?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Worth noting that it's unprecedented that the Ministerial Standards Adviser's advice has been ignored.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Specifically, what bullying and intimidation?
It's all just the usual ridiculously vague, "oh I feel bullied".

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Have you seen the report then?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Have you?
Link

That's just people who have been legitimately criticised just getting sulky.
Turfing somebody out of a chair because they are typing too slowly, is a straightforward sacking in any situation. Yet, not even a complaint.:confused:


That's a vague definition and amounts to no more than "I don't like it".

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

No. But let's not try and derail the discussion.

You can't call the allegations ridiculously vague if you've not seen the report or full details of what the report says. They may be vague, they may be precise. You can't assume they're vague just to suit your argument. ;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

My view would be exactly the same whatever party it was as whether one likes or dislikes the Conservative government is utterly irrelevent in this matter as you seem to everytime you are challenged about something revert to the old straw man argument.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I think some see political parties like football clubs - there to be loyally supported from childhood until death. I get the impression that Den, like me, takes a neutral stance and will criticise any party and its behaviour. Right now, it's the Conservative Parry in power so understandably, they will come in for more criticism and appreciation when they get things right.

But bullying should not be a party political issue in any case. It's wrong whoever perpetrates it.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The clear proof is the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code which you seem to be denying and which is something which you conveniently did not quote from the report.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

You seem to have missed out this part of the report;

If, as a manager, you are unable to give 'legitimate, reasonable and constructive criticism' without making 'an individual feel uncomfortable, frightened, less respected or put down', then you shouldn't be a manager.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It wasn’t that she didn’t act entirely within the Ministerial Code, it was that she breached it.

It’s like describing running someone over on the pavement with your car as "not maintaining the agreed demarcation between car and pavement users"...

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Absolutely, we get on.

But Den is apolitical so I am underlining this.

I don't pretend to be an expert on the Home Secretary's career history. But I do know that the news reports have said she broke the Ministerial Code and that if they do so, Ministers are normally expected to resign.

I have sympathy with her if she wasn't informed of her bad behaviour at the time, but breaking Ministerial Code is breaking Ministerial Code and this over-ruling doesn't send the right message out to the country.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

My view is that as Prime Minister, you need to send the right message out to bullies that it cannot be tolerated. No ifs, buts or maybes.

This would have been achieved by accepting the Home Secretary's resignation. The loss of a Minister is a small price to pay to send the right message out to the country of intolerance towards bullying.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Even some form of admonishment, and with lessons learned etc., whilst keeping her post - this way the story became about the resignation.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Absolutely Den. I have recently been the victim of online bullying and concur wholeheartedly.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

unbelievable your trying to justify bullying like

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Never mind Priti is sorry if anyone 'feels they've been bullied'. Carte blanche for bullies in the workplace everywhere now.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Can anyone give an abridged version of what she is actually accused of doing?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I think she offended the remoaners. ;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

https://news.sky.com/story/priti-pat...etary-12137076

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

"shouting and swearing, belittling people, making unreasonable and repeated demands"

Shouting at people is not bullying them. The rest are just a matter of perspective, repeatedly demanding someone do their job is not 'bullying', and unreasonable is totally subjective, who says what is reasonable or not.

They may be breaking some misistrial code, but thats not the same as "bullying".

Oh, and "advice" is just that, nothing more. Sounds like a bit of a dummy spitter.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Hmm, contradictory evidence now arising which says she was advised about her behaviour before.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55015493

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Part of her defence seems to be no one told her she was being a bully. If the above us correct, then that's a lie.

If she's telling the truth, then its hard to expect someone who is being bullied to complain to the bully.

It might be as simple as she's not up to the job and takes it out on everyone around her. Can anyone list her achievements/talents? Maybe just supporting Brexit was enough to be promoted?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The last paragraph is irrelevant. The rest is just generalisations no specifics.

I would to have details on specific instances.

Only because Mrs Pierre works in the construction industry, and has done for the last 25 years, and believe me what she has been through, throughout and even as recent as this year would make your eyes water.

She rolls with it.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The specifics would be in the full report - if you ask BoJo nicely, he may let you see it.

Not sure that inappropriate behaviour in one line of work excuses it in another. - actually, I am sure it doesn’t...

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It's all been dealt with, she'll probably go on a half day course with lunch provided;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Sounds like potential widespread fraud...

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

And then come back to the day job, in which she can't deliver.

She'll be gone after the next cock up. Something to do with boats and asylum seekers I predict.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

No, of course not, but I would like to see what this definition of “bullying” is, compared to what Mrs Pierre has experienced throughout her career.

There’s “bullying”, discrimination and intimidation, there is also just telling people home truths, being brutally honest and not suffering fools.

The latter can be misconstrued to be the former.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Interesting for this to almost perfectly fall down to party lines. Would be curious to see if it was a Labour minister if the same people would be on the same sides.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

If the report concerned telling people home truths, being brutally honest and not suffering fools, then I'm sure it would see the light of day.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

it would be wrong no matter what party person that did it is in

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

would not hold your breath on that Hugh he had it on his desk since July

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

To some degree, it always comes down to party lines.

Jeremy Corbyn is either the defender of minorities and warm cuddly protector or the weak, or a Jew hating economy wrecker.

In regards to this situation, I have sympathy for a woman having to project herself into an arena that is fundamentally male, pale and stale. If she has ruffled comfortable civil servants and upset them, so much the better for me, and if they complain about it it wouldn’t be without a hint of hypocrisy in my opinion.

That said we have no detail, and unless we get that detail everything else is speculation, nothing more.

So pointless discussing it until we know more.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Well it doesn't really - the conduct of Ministers is either right or wrong regardless of who is in post.

There's no evidence any of the complaints against Patel came from anyone male, pale or stale. Neither is there any evidence she merely 'ruffled feathers' - nor does it appear to be the first complaint.

If Civil Servants aren't up to it there are performance management processes and if they are going as far as going out their way to obstruct the work of Ministers on the basis of the gender or race of said Minister this would be a clear breach of the Civil Service Code. However there's actually no evidence that this was the case. None.

I agree there's no point in really discussing it further, as you've made up your mind and essentially admitted that if it was a Labour minister you'd probably feel differently.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I nearly spat my beer out, that was so funny.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Do watch that when you are near electrical equipment.

Unsure what's particularly entertaining about it though, it's a basic part of any functioning democracy to have an impartial Civil Service operating without Ministers, perhaps promoted beyond their capability as there's no real qualification criteria or performance management process, resorting to bullying and harassment.

That said you've made it clear you think a Conservative can fundamentally be held to a different standard than a Labour politician. Which to any reasonable person would be a ridiculous notion.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

And vice versa, it depends who is Doing the judging.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I’m not really sure it does to be honest. Unless you’re accusing the Civil Service of bias in the process.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I'm sure we've all noted that you have been pretty silent about the outbursts that were reported from Gordon Brown back in the day.

The thing is, the Home Office civil servants on the whole are pretty useless, and have been for many years. I seem to recall a certain Labour Home Secretary saying the Home Office was 'not fit for purpose'.

I can quite understand the frustration Priti Patel must have felt with that lot and I'm not at all interested in their childish bleating that someone actually required them to do their jobs.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

You sound like a bit of a bully yourself OB :erm:

This isn't the first bullying case she's been involved with. A bad workman/woman blames her tools. She has a history of not delivering wherever she goes. Promoted beyond her talents and taking it out on those around her.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

As a manager myself, I have never had any warnings given to me about bullying my staff. But your comment does seem to clarify my suspicion that many people seem to think that criticism is bullying.

If that is the case, all of us on this forum are guilty as hell!

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Neither of us have seen the details. Those that have have found her guilty of bullying and breaking the ministerial code. No one else has stayed in their job after doing that.

A weak and desperate for friends PM.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Kinda weakens your comment about her bullying. :erm:

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The official report kinda doesn't though. ;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I am very sure that you are not qualified to make that assessment.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Was that from the snowflakes?

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

If you believe Sir Alex Allan is a "snowflake".

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I’m quite sure absolutely nobody noticed that, and nobody has asked me.

That said it’s expected from you to simply deflect, deflect, deflect in defence of Tories at all costs.

There’s no evidence of childish bleating but it’s a common theme among the Tories on here to underplay the issue and simply blame the Civil Service.

The most recent thread I can find on Gordon Brown is from 2010 when I wasn’t frequently on the forum.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Yet You are an expert on assessing her talent.

no they haven’t alleged.


John bercow? Valerie Vaz? Gordon Brown? There’s 3 and Fergus Ewing MSP, if we’re allowed to include him makes 4.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Nor are you qualified to prove that she is competent. It’s an assumption grounded in your political bias.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

??? And.......?

I haven’t made that assertion. Such a childish response.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

It’s not a childish response it’s a verifiable fact. You’re assuming she’s competent because she’s a Tory and it suits your narrative. Yet she appears to find herself encountering problems that other Conservative Ministers, dare I say more competent Ministers, have not.

Her breach of the Ministerial Code isn’t “alleged”. The report says she did.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

If I close my eyes I can hear and picture that being shouted at me by a 6 year old, whilst stamping their feet.

I have no idea what problems she, nor any other ministers may encounter, perhaps she May encounter more problems Han her male counterparts- I don’t know. I can’t comment on her competence ( you must have some insight I don’t )

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Very good.

You would have been as well stopping after "I have no idea" because you don't - you're simply engaging in speculation from a narrative (without evidence) that Civil Servants were somehow either racist or sexist towards her. As you said they're male, pale and stale.

Yet you have no evidence, at all, or any of this. Yet the person who carried out the investigation and had evidence called it a breach of the Ministerial Code. I note that no Civil Servants are being referred for breaches of the Civil Service Code as a result.

I would say, and I don't meant this as a personal criticism, that the person who independently assessed the evidence is more qualified than you to reach a judgement.

In my first exchange with you today on this you managed to bring up Jeremy Corbyn. Who has absolutely nothing to do with anything. However it was clear from that point you are viewing this subject through an entirely political prism. From that point you conceded you have no genuine intenton to consider the merits of any complaint, or otherwise, simply because it's a Conservative Minister.

I guess I'm curious where would you draw the line for a Conservative Minister's conduct? What would you make the burden of proof?

And the same for a Labour minister I suppose.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Enough !
Any more outbursts from the children, and you'll be sitting on the naughtly step.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Hopefully 2 meters apart, and in groups of no more than 6 ;)

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The insight is in The Times today, we can wait till January to see if she's out of a job. Don't know why you're sticking up for her, she thinks you're lazy and wrote it in a book, not some British workers were lazy or a najority but all of us, although that said perhaps we should remember she was supremely competent and qualified to pocket one thousand pounds an hour from arms manufacturers, wonder if they got value for money

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

The report's been languishing on BoJo's desk since March. It's been released now presumably because it's an opportune time to bury bad news as the country focuses on Covid and Christmas. I therefore doubt that she will lose her job, just her reputation.
One feature of BoJo is that he expects completely loyalty from his Ministers. In return he gives it back.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Not so much sticking up for her but willing to give the BoD, and only because I have first hand experience of Mrs Pierre’s experiences in a male dominated sector.

It may be mis-placed, we may or may not see.

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:04 ----------

Oh so she said the words F****** Useless. But we don’t know why or at who or anything other than she said those words.

I’ve said those words at work many times.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

I have never told anyone in any of my teams that - that would be inappropriate and bullying.

Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 

Worth noting that the majority of civil servants are female, 53.9%. This ranges from 45.2% female in some grades up to 57.2% in others. But doubtless the higher grades are the male-dominated ones. Based on this data, I wouldn't call it a male-dominated sector.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...sion-dashboard