VM General News Thread
This thread is a direct follow on from this one:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10...um-pay-tv.html I thought it might be useful to have all the news about what John Malone is getting up to in one place. Firstly, a profile of him is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Malone But if you can't be bothered to read all that, in essence he is a telecoms engineer and a master of business who built up what was the largest US cable company in the 80s and 90s before selling it making him billions. He's now rebuilding his former US cable empire while also owning a controlling stake in the company that owns Virgin Media. He also owns more land in America then any other individual. I will update this thread with any news about him or his companies when I can. Here's a useful diagram of his interests, but take note that it is slightly out of date as Charter has now merged with fellow cablecos Bright House and Time Warner Cable since the publication of this diagram which will give Malone around a 20% share of the merged entity and make him the largest shareholder: https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/06/41.jpg |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Great infographic, thanks for sharing.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
We shall see...
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Not likely any time soon.
This story just keeps on popping up every few months, because it's a good story and they have pages they need to fill. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Liberty and Malone are testing the waters by merging their Dutch operations. If that works out for both of them then perhaps they'll start talking a full blown merger in another year or so. Malone has repeatedly stated he wants to do a big deal before his retirement.
Quote:
I will be posting various things when I've got the time. There's been lots of Discovery news snippets this week. Plus, there's lots of interviews that Malone has done over the years that some may find interesting. As I said in my original thread, once he's recreated his US cable empire, which he's now done. Then at some point he'll go for a US mobile company. Then, merge Starz and Lionsgate together (he already now owns a share of Lionsgate) and possibly buy someone like Scripps, or AMC Networks. THen merge all of that with Liberty Global and Vodafone if he can. I would not be surprised if he then sold the lot to someone like Apple or Google. What he has always done is maintain control of "his" companies through different classes of shares even while only holding minority shareholdings. (Of course we were talking about this last week) So, I am curious to see if he continues this (he has always stated he wants to "influence" "his" companies) and if he does, where the money comes from. He is personally very rich and has just put 5 billion into the Charter merger. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Vodafone NZ and Sky TV make $2.4bn deal.
Vodafone's New Zealand unit is merging with the country's biggest pay television provider Sky Network in a $2.4bn (£1.7bn) deal. UK-based Vodafone, the world's second-biggest mobile carrier, will own 51% of the combined company. Analysts say the deal might result in Vodafone leaving the New Zealand market. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36486455 Sky Network has nothing to do with Sky plc (Sky UK) since 2013 when News Corp announced it will be selling its 44 percent stake in Sky Television (New Zealand). Will Vodafone UK and Europe next to be sold? |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
UPC looks set to acquire fellow cable company Multimedia Polska.
Broadband TV News calculates that adding Multimedia Polska's 827,00 subscribers to UPC's 1.4m would give the company 50% of the cable market. Looks a sensible move and mirrors the cable consolidation we've seen in the UK. http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2016/...h-acquisition/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Malone's empire building continues as Lionsgate is to purchase Starz:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/30/lions...and-stock.html http://variety.com/2016/film/news/li...se-1201806588/ http://www.wsj.com/articles/lions-ga...eal-1467288777 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Rupert Murdochs News Corporation have bought The Wireless Group owner of Talk Sport , didn't Malones Liberty Global have a stake in this ?
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
The behemoth's get even bigger.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
From one of those articles on the Lionsgate deal, here's a interesting little titbit:
"Mr. Malone told The Wall Street Journal last year that Lions Gate, with its attractive Canadian tax domicile, could buy Starz and “potentially other free radicals in the industry” and become a content consolidator." ... So, yet again, its all about tax with Malone. Curious that the richer you get, the less tax you pay, or in Malone's case, none at all.... ... This article thinks Malone will now merge Discovery in with Lionsgate: https://www.thestreet.com/story/1362...ry-merger.html ... Can't provide a link to this Reuters article, so here is most of it which I thought was quite interesting: BREAKINGVIEWS – Lions Gate – Starz mashup is classic Malone 30-06-2016 22:43 (The authors are Reuters Breakingviews columnists. The opinions expressed are their own.)(Refiles to add link to graphic.) By Jennifer Saba and Richard Beales NEW YORK, June 30 (Reuters Breakingviews) – Movie studio Lions Gate's $4.4 billion deal to acquire pay-TV company Starz has media mogul John Malone's fingerprints all over it. A complex structure? Check. New governance-skewing non-voting stock? Yup. More influence for the man known as the Cable Cowboy? You bet. Starz shareholders shouldn't be surprised at the modest premium on offer. Speculation about a merger began in February 2015 when Malone, best known for Liberty Global and similarly named enterprises, swapped 4.5 percent of Starz stock for 3.4 percent of Lions Gate shares. In the process he gained a seat on the "Hunger Games" studio's board. Against the backdrop of cable consolidation, the tie-up makes industrial sense. And if Lions Gate could find synergies worth a reasonable-seeming 2.5 percent of combined revenue, or $100 million a year, once taxed and capitalized their value would easily cover the $400 million or so of premium on offer – and more. However, that's partly because the price isn't generous. Malone controls Starz with 48 percent of the votes thanks to Class B stock that has 10 times the voting power of regular shares. That makes it hard for other shareholders to argue. They'll get cash and Lions Gate stock worth just over $32 a share, a 14 percent premium to where Starz A shares closed on Wednesday. Lions Gate plans to create a new class of non-voting shares. That's what the regular owners of Starz will get along with their cash. Holders of super-voting Starz shares, like Malone, will receive fewer readies, but half their Lions Gate shares will carry voting rights. (See graphic: http://tmsnrt.rs/298H1BZ) This helps explain why Malone and other central figures look set to land on their feet. Lions Gate Chairman Mark Rachesky owns just over 20 percent of the company. He'll be diluted by the acquisition, but his voting interest will decline only slightly because non-voting shares will go disproportionately to others. Combine Rachesky's interest in Lions Gate with Malone's and those of Liberty Global and Discovery Communications , and there'll be a near-controlling block wielding more than a third of the votes with barely more than a quarter of all shares, by Breakingviews' reckoning. It's classic Malone to wrap a smart deal in a complicated structure that's good for him. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
....related to Liberty's purchase of UTV Ireland, I think Malone will now go ahead for a full takeover of ITV for one very good reason.....
The pound crashed and is still going down and its now a lot cheaper for Malone to purchase the rest of ITV. Watch this space, I would expect this to happen "soon" ish... |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
.... no idea. Testing the waters, maybe??
If he is going to buy ITV, then it will happen in before the year is out. THe exchange rate is in his favour, but I'd expect a counter bid from BT to block him. Oh!! and I forgot, another big reason why he might buy ITV now, their share price is down 25%... |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin Media: Virgin Media to Acquire UTV Ireland.
Virgin Media, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Liberty Global, today announced that it has entered into an agreement with ITV plc to acquire UTV Ireland, the nation’s newest free-to-air commercial broadcaster, for a purchase price of €10 million. The agreement also includes a comprehensive 10 year output deal for Ireland for ITV produced programming. The purchase price is expected to be funded through existing liquidity. http://about.virginmedia.com/press-r...re-utv-ireland |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
And nothing of value was lost/gained.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin Media has hired a former content chief at BT TV as it pushes further into original and exclusive programming.
http://www.digitaltveurope.net/57393...content-chief/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
.... lets see what the new bloke can do!
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Indeed they probably all have dinner together.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Web News: F1 up for sale?
Sky, Discovery/Liberty Global are participating in auction to buy Formula One. Rumours on the web says the winner may be confirmed in the coming weeks. http://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/29...l-formula-one/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Wait, the sport itself is for sale, not just the viewing rights?
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
$8 billion !! For that boring junk.
What an incredible waste, just think how many decent TV programmes you could make for that amount. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
The European Commission have today cleared the merger of Liberty's and Vodafone's Dutch operations.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...fits-flag.html |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Even at £308m, £8billion is a pretty good deal. You'd pay £150k for a house that's going to bring in what, £6-8k a year?
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
So if my rough calculations are correct, F1 has a P/E of about 26.5?
Seems like a good deal then. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
It's a higher ratio than your house example and above average according to the link.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Yeah that's exactly what I am saying, at 2013 figures 8Bn is a great deal. If 2015 figures are higher, it's a steal.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
http://www.newstalk.com/TV3-owners-c...1-takeover-bid http://news.sky.com/story/liberty-me...acing-10551347 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Barron’s: Vodafone boost from Liberty Global tie-up
Vodafone Group could benefit from a merger with Liberty Global, according to a report in Barron’s, which added the British telecommunications company’s shares could also be poised for a 33% rise. http://www.irishexaminer.com/busines...up-420755.html |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
There's no indication it will happen. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
I feel like Virgin and Vodafone are the company equivelant to Ross and Rachel.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Liberty Global Invest in Kickboxing’s Glory Sports.
Yao Capital, the investment arm of Chinese basketball star Yao Ming, and cable TV giant Liberty Global have led a round of investment into Glory Sports International, organizer of kickboxing events. http://variety.com/2016/biz/asia/yao...ng-1201859791/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2016/...n-horizon-box/
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
BT & Virgin Media join forces to battle Openreach split.
"The pair will this week launch their first-ever joint advertising campaign to defend Britain's record on internet infrastructure in the face of sustained attacks from Sky, TalkTalk and Vodafone." "The cable operator fears its advantage and the return on its investment in expansion could be halted if Openreach is separated. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...enreach-split/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Strange bedfellows one would think Andrew? but when you are taking on the might and influence of Sky then needs must.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
This has to be a harbinger of the apocalypse.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
My take on this, is, that VM fear Sky, Talktalk et all getting hold of and control of BT's/Openreach's infrastructure - and on the cheap.
Although Sky has been doing trials of FTTP, Murdoch has never shown any inclination in investing billions in infrastructure, which is why he piggybacked his satellite tv business off someone's else's satellites. If a competitor to VM could get hold off infrastructure without investing billions this could put VM's whole business under threat. Because what future investor would bother pumping in money if it were possible to be gifted cables, ducts and poles from BT? |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Liberty Global to introduce Docsis 3.1 in 2017
Cable operator Liberty Global will launch its first services over Docsis 3.1 in 2017, the company announced at IBC in Amsterdam. It's not yet known which country will get the faster services first. http://www.telecompaper.com/news/lib...-2017--1162860 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
The enemy of my enemies is my friend.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin Media receives regulatory approval to acquire UTV Ireland
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/m...land-1.2870076 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
.... and the Liongate-Starz merger should complete soon which will give Malone the largest and controlling stake in it. I'll post here when confirmed.
http://www.denverite.com/colorado-bi...onsgate-21746/ ---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:07 ---------- Following on from that, something which has been muted in the press over the last several months is a potential Malone buyout of CBS and Viacom, owner of Paramount Pictures. This article hints that the Starz-Lionsgate deal may be a used as a vechicle by Malone as a way to buy CBS/Viacom: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ck-undervalued THe F1 deal should also complete soon, which will give Malone total control over F1 via his controlling stakes in Liberty Global and Discovery. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Two differing points of view here:
http://seekingalpha.com/news/3225242...ty-global-deal http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tm...-idUSKBN13C1OJ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
.... I think in that Reuters article, Fries gave a very strong hint that he intends to buy a UK broadcaster. Perhaps ITV, which Liberty already own a bit of, or perhaps he might go for Ch4, if and when the government puts it up for sale.
On the main issue covered in the articles about a Liberty/Vodafone tie-up, I think it's less likely now. I think Malone was keen on the idea as long as he got his way and the merged entity was leveraged to the hilt and paid -1000% tax. But the first article hints that Vodafone are still keen on a deal, so perhaps it may be them that stalk Malone, not the other way around. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
It's not an issue.
The older TiVo's built in connection doesn't go fast enough to need D3.1, and as already been discussed elsewhere the V6 doesn't have it's own modem, but connects to the Virgin Media Hub. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
One of the big selling points of the Tivo was that dedicated modem not interfering with your broadband. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
No comment on that at the moment.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
For a little while longer.;)
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Nice little interview Malone gave yesterday about how he sees the future of cable and mobile companies, which is basically what I've said here 18 months ago!
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/16/john-...nsolidate.html |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Lately I've even been seeing a message claiming my internet isnt connected (complete with a picture of a dog pulling a cable from the tv) so there is obviously something a bit broke. VM must think so too if they are moving in a different direction with the V6 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
And for what? The "Graphically rich" UI isn't even that usable. The V6 better be nippy. Quote:
Well it won't be the current Virgin MVNO as BT just bought them. Rumours of Vodafone merging have been going on for years, but Telefonica (O2) needs money fast so there's plenty of possibilities really. He's not wrong, it makes a lot of sense to combine the efforts. I believe Virgin actually supplies a lot of backhaul for the various mobile networks, so it's a no brainer. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
- a satellite TV company eg Sky, Canal Plus - a cable company often part of LGI - the incumbent fixed line operator sometimes part-owned by Deutsche Telekom How do these map to the various networks owned by Vodafone, 3-Hutchison, Telefonica-O2 plus a host of smaller companies like Telia, Tele2 and America Movil? No one knows at this stage but everyone speculates. :) |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Yup, no doubt it'll be a series of mergers rather than one big one. It's only a matter of time before more EU networks start merging with each other, too.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
I'm not sure Virgin supply backhaul for "various" mobile networks. I don't think EE or Three ever used them and EE certainly wouldn't now as they're part of BT Group. They definitely provide backhaul for Vodafone though. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
and MBNL provides the backhaul http://mbnl.co.uk/ Quote:
They did, a long time ago, and they still provide circuits here and there around the country. But Vodafone have their own massive Fibre Network courtesy of C&W. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Patrick Drahi’s Altice Sells SFR BeLux to Telenet, Owned by John Malone’s Liberty Global.
Patrick Drahi’s Netherlands-based Altice Group, parent of Altice USA and SFR, France’s No. 2 telecoms operator, has agreed to sell its businesses in Belgium and Luxembourg to the Telenet Group, owned by John Malone’s Liberty Global. http://variety.com/2016/film/global/...et-1201947543/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Voda have to rely on BT backhaul for a lot of areas still. I never said in my post that they ONLY use it, you just felt like correcting me. 50-60% of the well populated borough I live in doesn't have C&W fibre anywhere near it. Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Actually MrIca, C&W network is pretty well coverd across the UK and takes many different guises due to network rebrands over the years. C&W also subduct and share a lot of core duct access with VM, BT and Verizon around the UK as well, so even though it may not be apparent a provider is in an area, they probably have a lot more fibre than you would think.
Virgin havent supplied Vodafone circuits in some time, that may changegoing forward but there doesnt appear to be a business agreement in place currently. The MBNL backhaul deal has been ongoing for some time and is constantly expanding across the UK, Virgin supply a lot of backhaul for major ISP's and other Mobile and fixed Telcos all over the UK... just as VM uses backhaul from other suppliers to get business services to areas where there is currently not network footprint. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Yep I know all about the different guises of C&W (Thus, Scottish Telecom, Norweb Comms, etc). but in many areas there's only BT ducting in the ground.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
There certainly seems to be a bit of moving the chess pieces around the board going on here.... to what end, not sure. Dragi is clearly a major player now after buying America's 4th largest cableco (Cablevision) and 7th Largest (Suddenlink). Whether this may be the start of a closer union with Malone and his companies, remains to be seen. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:34 ---------- Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
And when you say things like Quote:
Anyway. Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Overhead as in National Grid? How do I know what backhaul Voda use? Well I can open up (non-Voda marked) boxes in front of many Vodafone transmitters where I live and see they go directly onto BT fibre. You can physically see the fibre coming from where the transmitter is. There's no VM or C&W network at all nearby for them to go onto. As I say there's still lots of areas where the VM and C&W network doesn't reach and doesn't get near enough to. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm fairly certain when VM lost the Vodafone contract I think Global Crossing, now Level 3, won it, or a lot if it, as I remember them digging to loads of Vodafone sites about 6-7 years ago. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Sorry if I came across arsey.
I see what you mean about the backhaul, I was thinking more of who the physical fibre is owned by that is in use. So Voda could well be paying Level 3 who just use whomever's fibre is the cheapest to connect to the masts. Since they bought C&W they've probably tried to get as many masts as they can onto that network. I've seen them digging up to a mile or so along pavements and roads to avoid using other people's physical fibre. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Yeah when it comes to business fibre, there's a lot of overlap. In the last place I worked, we got fibre in via a little ISP called HSO because they were cheaper than anyone else, who basically paid Virgin for the fibre link, who basically paid BT for the fibre link. We had 3 gateway devices in our cab before we got to our own equipment.
I wouldn't be surprised if the mobile telco operations were a similar beast. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin snubs Three to stick with BT on wireless contract.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...less-contract/ Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Interesting move. I guess if they do have an eye on O2 then there's potentially a lot less turmoil for everyone if they stick with BT for now. Building their own 'thick' network could also make them more competitive - I've been looking at some deals I've the past week or so and Virginia are nowhere to be seen.
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin Media and BT agree new mobile deal
Virgin Media and BT today announced a new five year Mobile Virtual Network Operator (MVNO) agreement. Press Release http://www.virginmedia.com/corporate...bile-deal.html |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
But I agree, if a Vodafone deal were imminent, this wouldn't have happened. ---------- Post added at 13:52 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ---------- Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Virgin Media leaves Horizon behind in television platform rebrand.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/m...rand-1.2934445 |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
.... I rather like it!
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Quote:
|
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Fries declares Liberty Global’s mobile future
Mike Fries says there will be just two mobile networks in every European country – and expects Liberty Global to be running one of them. In a CNBC interview from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Fries said this meant a fixed broadband fibre-based network alongside a mobile network, adding that the operator already had a mobile network in nine markets. “Every company of scale should have a mobile solution with seamless connectivity,” he said. http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2017/...mobile-future/ |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Perhaps it's because I'm too used to reading the "output" of people like Malone and Fries and go giddy at the thought of "what a good idea larger scale means", but, how exactly does it benefit consumers when there is a choice of only two companies in anything, let alone mobile?
And lets be clear, two networks means really only means two companies because resellers are bound by what the network operator wants. Hence all the Oenreach problems, it ain't open at all, it's whatever BT says. |
Re: John Malone/Liberty/VM General News Thread
Only two mobile companies no thanks that will hike prices for the average consumer.
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:13. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.